VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

General Information => General => Topic started by: jimfoo on November 25, 2007, 07:29:01 pm

Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 25, 2007, 07:29:01 pm
I'm pretty sure I remember hearing an IDI can be converted to a TDI. What all is needed, just a head, pistons, injectors and an M-TDI pump? I think it might be cheaper than buying a new engine, and not that much more than fixing the IDI, not including the pump of course.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Slave2School on November 25, 2007, 07:41:17 pm
I'm not 100% sure, but I recall a firend of mine looking to do that same thing.  Not sure if he looked at the ALH head or what combo, but the cooling passages did not match up at all so he gave up on that idea.  Again there maybe a combo (1z?) that does fit and my friend did not investigate it far enough.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 25, 2007, 10:00:11 pm
Quote from: "Slave2School"
I'm not 100% sure, but I recall a firend of mine looking to do that same thing.  Not sure if he looked at the ALH head or what combo, but the cooling passages did not match up at all so he gave up on that idea.  Again there maybe a combo (1z?) that does fit and my friend did not investigate it far enough.


apparently the 1Z is basically a 1.9 IDI block?  the only difference is crank/rods/pistons/head???

maybe price out all that stuff before you go crazy.  if you can get the complete head from bleachedbora for a good price, why not?  at least you won't have to worry about inserts falling into the cylinders.  

also a good mechanical TDI pump will run you into $1000 approx.

and TDI's run cooler  :wink:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: zaprzal on November 26, 2007, 09:39:00 am
I think early tdi (1z) head will fit. A friend of mine compared head gaskets 1z and td aaz...

Do you know if any DI pistons fit 1.6td rod?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 26, 2007, 09:56:29 am
Quote from: "zaprzal"
I think early tdi (1z) head will fit. A friend of mine compared head gaskets 1z and td aaz...

Do you know if any DI pistons fit 1.6td rod?

Then maybe I will be going in that direction. I have no idea about the pistons fitting 1.6 rods. But I don't see why they couldn't be reamed or bushed to fit if they are different.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: zaprzal on November 26, 2007, 04:10:57 pm
1.6 piston pin is smaller than 1,9  :(
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on November 26, 2007, 04:21:46 pm
Pete from volkspart is working on putting together a IDI to TDI kit.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 26, 2007, 08:03:49 pm
Quote from: "rallydiesel"
Pete from volkspart is working on putting together a IDI to TDI kit.


i can't wait to see how that will work.  

Quote
TDI conversion kit for 1.6 IDI engines. I am working on converting a 1.6 diesel to a 1.6 TDI. The kit will include a complete TDI head, TDI pistons with rings, and cylinder sleeves. This is an incredible project. I am hoping for at least a 10% increase in efficiency. You will use your old injector pump, and timing belt. I hope to offer this for under $1000. This will be a complete 1.6 engine overhaul kit. You will end up with a new 1.6 TDI engine! I hope to offer this kit early 2008. I hope to have a prototype engine running shortly...


why would one need a cylinder sleeve to use a piston that is a larger size? maybe he is using 1.4L TDI pistons???  maybe those share the same piston pin size as the 1.6 diesels??? if that works that would be incredible.  although re-using the 1.6 pump seems sketchy.

would there be any issues with using cylinder sleeves, as in lack of heat transfer between the sleeve and the block? warpage from overheat? or am i wrong?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: 935racer on November 26, 2007, 09:10:22 pm
Quote
Pete from volkspart is working on putting together a IDI to TDI kit.


Ghetto.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on November 27, 2007, 11:58:44 am
Quote from: "jtanguay"
would there be any issues with using cylinder sleeves, as in lack of heat transfer between the sleeve and the block? warpage from overheat? or am i wrong?


This came up in class today. My prof said it's not common practice because of costs. From the sounds of it you wouldn't have a problem.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 27, 2007, 03:26:47 pm
Quote from: "burn_your_money"
Quote from: "jtanguay"
would there be any issues with using cylinder sleeves, as in lack of heat transfer between the sleeve and the block? warpage from overheat? or am i wrong?


This came up in class today. My prof said it's not common practice because of costs. From the sounds of it you wouldn't have a problem.


thats some good news... rebuilding 1.6TD's might be easier than i thought... just sleeve the block and re-use the old pistons with some new rings, possibly total seal?  i'm gonna try that out on one of the 1.6TD's i have :)

jimfoo this might be a possible route for you.  punch out your block and sleeve it.  you'd get to re-use your original pistons  :wink:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on November 27, 2007, 04:03:16 pm
It's not quite the simple. You need to heat the block up and freeze the sleeve in liquid nitrogen and have it pressed in and then you need to have it honed. You'll probably also have to have the top of the block machined for the flange and then you have the task of finding sleeves
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 27, 2007, 04:37:12 pm
Quote from: "burn_your_money"
It's not quite the simple. You need to heat the block up and freeze the sleeve in liquid nitrogen and have it pressed in and then you need to have it honed. You'll probably also have to have the top of the block machined for the flange and then you have the task of finding sleeves


well the sleeves are on www.dieselvw.com for around $25 a piece.

it does seem like a lot of work though...
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: 935racer on November 27, 2007, 04:45:55 pm
Has anyone actually bought parts from there?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 27, 2007, 05:08:43 pm
"HI, the problem is that the TDI piston is longer top to bottom than the
IDI piston and for that reason the conversion won't work.  

I am working on a 1.6 to TDI conversion, but I found special pistons
that will fit the block (and won't stick out too much).  

Pete"
Guess the answer is no, it won't work for me.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 27, 2007, 05:09:53 pm
Quote from: "935racer"
Has anyone actually bought parts from there?

I'm thinking it is the same as e-miata, which I have bought timing tools from, but nothing else. The sites look identical.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 27, 2007, 05:12:23 pm
Quote from: "jtanguay"

jimfoo this might be a possible route for you.  punch out your block and sleeve it.  you'd get to re-use your original pistons  :wink:

Ummm, didn't you look at the pic of one of my pistons? I don't think a sleeve will help it any.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 27, 2007, 05:52:26 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
Quote from: "jtanguay"

jimfoo this might be a possible route for you.  punch out your block and sleeve it.  you'd get to re-use your original pistons  :wink:

Ummm, didn't you look at the pic of one of my pistons? I don't think a sleeve will help it any.


well you'll have to replace that piston then  :(
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on November 27, 2007, 06:38:10 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
"HI, the problem is that the TDI piston is longer top to bottom than the
IDI piston and for that reason the conversion won't work.  

I am working on a 1.6 to TDI conversion, but I found special pistons
that will fit the block (and won't stick out too much).  

Pete"
Guess the answer is no, it won't work for me.


Does that only apply to the 1.6 though?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 27, 2007, 06:52:46 pm
Quote from: "935racer"
Has anyone actually bought parts from there?


i bought 4 TD injectors... pretty damn cheap, and i hope they work good.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: quietmission on November 27, 2007, 07:39:37 pm
I bought 1.6td injectors as well.  Let me how they perform once you try them because i am just curious as the price is unbelievable.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 28, 2007, 07:30:06 am
Quote from: "quietmission"
I bought 1.6td injectors as well.  Let me how they perform once you try them because i am just curious as the price is unbelievable.


does seem sketchy...  i thought i'd bite the bullet and take one for the team.   :lol: it seems like i have one injector that is sticking at startup.  funny though its seemed to have gone away recently.. (back to smooth startups?)

i had smog re-do my injectors with 160 bar with GTD nozzles... little did i know that the higher the opening pressure, the less efficient they are... oh well!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: malone on November 28, 2007, 11:05:33 am
I had GTD nozzles done with slightly higher than stock opening pressure and they performed worse than a brand new set of OEM 1.6TD injectors (not reman).

Maybe advancing the timing a bit with the GTDs will have helped, but I doubt that would have recovered the 10hp I lost and add more power. Maybe I just had a bad set of GTDs, or increasing the breaking pressure was simply a bad idea.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 28, 2007, 05:50:36 pm
Quote from: "malone"
I had GTD nozzles done with slightly higher than stock opening pressure and they performed worse than a brand new set of OEM 1.6TD injectors (not reman).

Maybe advancing the timing a bit with the GTDs will have helped, but I doubt that would have recovered the 10hp I lost and add more power. Maybe I just had a bad set of GTDs, or increasing the breaking pressure was simply a bad idea.


i hope its the increasing of the breaking pressure although my timing is around 1.05 1.06-ish... maybe these el cheapo injectors will work good!!!  8)
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 30, 2007, 04:14:09 pm
Ok, I'm stealing my thread back for the moment.  :lol:  It does indeed appear that AHU/1Z pistons are the same as AAZ, so the conversion will soon begin. :twisted:  Question, should I post the details here in general or in the TDI section?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on November 30, 2007, 04:53:01 pm
Here please :D

I'm not surprised that the pistons are the same since the crank is the same other then the nose.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on November 30, 2007, 04:59:43 pm
Ok, here it will be! Also, don't miss the pic of the amazing worn rings at the bottom. http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11337
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on November 30, 2007, 06:26:25 pm
this'll be very interesting if it works!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Ziptar on November 30, 2007, 09:07:33 pm
Yes it will be.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 02, 2007, 01:21:15 pm
Some questions to see what I can use and what I have to buy. Can I use my AAZ injectors? Are TDI cam, valves, lifters the same as 1Z? Also I've seen contradictory posts about using the AAZ pump in am m-TDI. Some say to just swap heads and cam plates, others say much more work is needed.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: QuickTD on December 02, 2007, 11:10:15 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
Can I use my AAZ injectors?


 Nope not even close, tdi are hole type (not pintle) and are retained by a toggle clamp, not screwed in.

Quote
Are TDI cam, valves, lifters the same as 1Z?


Lifters, sometimes... If you have an AAZ with small valve stems (7mm) and single springs, then the lifters are the same as a TDI. If it is an older AAZ with double springs and 8mm stems they are different. The cam is a different grind but will physically fit. The AAZ cam may offer a slight a performance improvement as it has more duration, give it a try and let us know... :D Valves are larger in the TDI, and may have smaller stems depending on the year. Either way, the AAZ ones won't fit.

Quote
Also I've seen contradictory posts about using the AAZ pump in am m-TDI. Some say to just swap heads and cam plates, others say much more work is needed.


 There are some out there running the stock AAZ pump with good results. Smog has posted about them before, and stated that they make more power on the AHU than on the AAZ with similar settings. There are others here with more first hand experience than I, and I'll let them fill in the rest.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on December 05, 2007, 11:47:30 am
Make sure to measure the con rod/piston assemblies that you will be using compared to the stock weight. You will have to get the crank rebalanced if the pistons weigh more/less significantly then stock
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 05, 2007, 01:41:01 pm
I was, but thanks for making sure. :wink:  I am also getting the pistons coated, and am going to try grooving the piston tops, like on here: http://somender-singh.com/content/view/7/31/ I have seen a lot of discussion on it, and even if it doesn't help, I don't see how it could possibly hurt. I have e-mailed him and he said it does work on TDI diesels, though probably not on IDI. Trying to get it built as cheaply as possible, I am the guinea pig at trying the e-miata/volkswaparts/.... pistons, 10mm TDI head, 1Z/AHU cylinder head./ Wish me luck!!!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on December 05, 2007, 01:54:55 pm
Looks interesting. I'm debating getting a turbo from him so please let me know how this stuff looks
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 05, 2007, 02:11:49 pm
I will, good or bad. I was trying to find a used head, but was only able to find an ALH locally, or 200k+ 1Z/AHU without camshaft and something else for $500, so said screw that.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on December 05, 2007, 11:44:13 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
I will, good or bad. I was trying to find a used head, but was only able to find an ALH locally, or 200k+ 1Z/AHU without camshaft and something else for $500, so said screw that.


why not buy the complete head from bleachedbora? or does he have any of those kollbenschmidt ones left???

that groove mod looks pretty interesting... definitely worth some testing!  looks like it channels the fuel spray/burn in the direction of the groove.  i couldn't see why it would hurt, unless done improperly or too deep.  i guess the reason that it wouldn't work so well on the IDI's would be because the IDI already has a pre-chamber, and the burning fuel is directed inside a swirl chamber and then into the cylinder; making it just as efficient as the groove mod, but who knows there might be some gains there too.  search for that thread from redrotors - IDI there is a future.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 06, 2007, 01:41:20 am
Because if I spend that much on a head, then have to get everything else done to my block, it would be cheaper just buying a whole engine.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on December 06, 2007, 12:18:28 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
Because if I spend that much on a head, then have to get everything else done to my block, it would be cheaper just buying a whole engine.


ah true... but the head is fresh so there won't be any surprises.  remember that i spent around $350 in total to get my head done up... and thats using the old valves.  i just wanted to clean out the black carbon buildup.  ended up getting new lifters because there was some early signs of pitting on a few of them.

i bought my tdi longblock for around $1200 (usd back then it was around $1000) and it is in very good shape.  came with everything (inc. water pump & manifolds) except pump turbo, and accessories.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 06, 2007, 01:01:13 pm
I talked to the machine shop, and if I need everything including guides, it will be $438, which is still cheaper than new complete, but it will still be new. I am hoping it comes with guides and that I can use my IDI lifters and springs. Plus I have 2 IDI cams I can use.
Title: It's happening!
Post by: jimfoo on December 13, 2007, 10:14:20 am
WOOHOO! Parts are starting to come in. I believe the head and pistons are at the PO, so there may be some pictures later. I guess removing the engine and getting it ready for machine work will be the first order of business.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Quantum TD on December 13, 2007, 12:23:29 pm
It may be a little late for this, but I just came across this last night. This guy looks like the real deal. The headwork looks amazing, and for just $500-550 (after returned core)  including a new camshaft and lifters, I'm not sure how you could beat that for a rebuilt OEM head. The crappy aftermarket ones go for $700 at wholesale price.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=175661&highlight=warped+head

Just a thought for anyone with  head damage that you thought was unrepairable. Apparently, he does 1.6 and 1.9 AAZ stuff too. My only question is whether he can still get camshafts for the old cars too.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on December 13, 2007, 12:44:58 pm
I've talked to that guy before and tried to get him to join over here but the french scared him away. He does do 1.6 heads as well
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 13, 2007, 01:05:14 pm
Quote from: "Quantum TD"
It may be a little late for this, but I just came across this last night. This guy looks like the real deal. The headwork looks amazing, and for just $500-550 (after returned core)  including a new camshaft and lifters, I'm not sure how you could beat that for a rebuilt OEM head. The crappy aftermarket ones go for $700 at wholesale price.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=175661&highlight=warped+head

Just a thought for anyone with  head damage that you thought was unrepairable. Apparently, he does 1.6 and 1.9 AAZ stuff too. My only question is whether he can still get camshafts for the old cars too.

Problem is I have no core. Another place I tried wanted $300 more for no core, where as my new bare, though not VW head was $279. I will use what parts I can from my old IDI heads as one was practically new and the other had not that many miles.
Title: WOHOO! PARTS, and compatible ones to boot!!
Post by: jimfoo on December 13, 2007, 03:26:53 pm
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1596.JPG)
TDI vs AAZ pistons-identical dimensionally!!! YAY!!!

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1600.JPG)
Emiata.com head from injector side.

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1601.JPG)
Looking down from the top.

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1604.JPG)
Looking at the runners. They are a bit rough by the valves, but not too bad by the manifolds. The stock VW head is smoother by the valves, but I wasn't expecting too much for the price.
And now for the best parts!!

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1605.JPG)
The AAZ valves are a perfect fit in the 1Z head!!!

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1606.JPG)
The AAZ lifters are also a perfect fit!!!

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1607.JPG)
And the AAZ cam is a fit!!! This brings my head cost down considerably as I had thought I would have to buy new everything for the head.

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1609.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1610.JPG)
My new 10mm TDI head.  M-TDI here I come!!!! :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 13, 2007, 03:40:40 pm
Just talked to Giles, and he can convert me and look at my injectors for about $1050. I can feel the power now! :twisted:  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on December 13, 2007, 03:46:47 pm
What are you doing injection pump-wise? Are you getting the IDI injectors shimmed to open at the TDI specs? What did Giles say about using an IDI pump to pump at TDI pressures?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Slave2School on December 13, 2007, 03:47:44 pm
idi injectors do not fit in the holes.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on December 13, 2007, 03:51:35 pm
So are you bumping the TDI injectors down to IDI levels or bumping the pump up to TDI levels or using a TDI pump with an IDI top half or what? This project will be incredible if it works!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 13, 2007, 03:57:11 pm
Sounds like Giles will be using the TDI pressures with TDI injectors. Hopefully mine will clean up ok as it sounds like they have jelled veggie oil in them. They have 205 nozzles, which should be fine for what I need.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on December 13, 2007, 04:42:47 pm
So he will use the 1.9 IDI pump then?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 13, 2007, 07:48:28 pm
Yep, 1.9 IDI pump with a 10mm TDI head I already bought and possibly using the IDI cam plate as I'm not after huge power. But he will see how it works and adjust accordingly.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 14, 2007, 10:54:21 am
One new thing I discovered about the head is that if I tighten the 5th cap down, I can no longer rotate the cam by hand, so it will have to be reamed/bored a tiny bit. None of the rest seem too big, so luckily nothing major.
Title: Re: TDI Conversions
Post by: jtanguay on December 17, 2007, 12:08:37 am
Quote from: "prothe"
I think the problem with a 1.9 IDI to TDI conversion is that the TDI piston will stick too far out of the top of the block.  I don't have my piston book with me, but the distance between the pin and the top of the crown was different on the AAZ and 1Z pistons.  That is why I am not pursuing that conversion.  If I am wrong, let me know.

What I am pursuing is a 1.6 to TDI conversion, because I found a piston that will fit the 1.6 block.  This is on paper only...  I have ordered the piston, but it has yet to come in.  My plan is to then put a stock 1z head on the 1.6 block.  I know there are some cooling hole issues that I haven't looked at.  Setting the compression to about 18:1 (I forget the ideal number) will also probably have to be addressed.  

The 1.9 AAZ engine could be made into a 1.6TDI with cylinder sleeves.  (assuming I am right about the 1z pistons being too tall).

I don't want to mess with injector pumps, so I will probably lower the opening pressure of the TDI injectors to suit the older pumps.  If that doesn't work, I will have to upgrade the high pressure side of the 1.6 pumps.  I want to try to keep the price down.

The intake and exhaust will be unchanged.  

I wish I could make better progress on this project, but getting the pistons has been really slow, and I don't expect them for another 2 months.


are you factoring in rod length to measure piston protrusion? i think it'll be fine if 1Z crank + 1Z rods + 1Z or even AHU pistons are used.  maybe if AAZ rods are used the pistons will stick out too much, but even still we need to see it put together and real world numbers.  hopefully jimfoo can measure piston protrusion for us :)

i think 1Z tdi's are around 190 bar injection.  was there a reason for higher breaking pressures on the ALH?  the older pumps should be good for 190 bar injection and i wouldn't settle for anything less than stock, as it could affect a lot.

just curious, but how much can you have a block sleeved for? is it really that cheap? i heard it was a bit complicated with freezing the block to shrink it for a good tight seal?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 17, 2007, 12:39:39 pm
From what I can tell without the pistons in the block, they are almost identical in height. If anything, the TDI pistons are ever so slightly shorter.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 18, 2007, 06:19:47 pm
Well I completely tore the engine down today. The crank sprocket still looked good though I am putting the TDI one on it. The crank and rod bearings didn't look too bad considering the time I ran out of oil. The intermediate shaft bearings seemed fine, so I will leave them but put in new rod and crank bearings. So I think I will bring it down to the machine shop tomorrow for boring, balancing and head work. I decided not to get the pistons coated as I would have to send them out and I want to get it back together asap. After that I will get the $ and send the pump and injectors to Giles.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 18, 2007, 11:25:16 pm
Yep, I will be getting it balanced. From what I can tell, the TDI pistons are only 3.2 grams heavier.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 20, 2007, 08:18:58 pm
I brought the block, head and new pistons down to the machine shop today. I told him what I was doing and to double check the AAZ components in the TDI head to make sure they would work, and to double check the piston height. I am getting it all balanced I asked him about coating the pistons, and he said there is a local place that does good work, charging $20/piston, so I will get them coated after all. I still need to order the TDI crank sprocket as they are going to put it on as well. Now to get the money for the Giles pump!  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 21, 2007, 02:24:13 pm
The machine shop called today saying the head is done. All the AAZ components will work in the head, cam, valves, springs, lifters. SWEET!!!!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on December 21, 2007, 03:33:49 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
The machine shop called today saying the head is done. All the AAZ components will work in the head, cam, valves, springs, lifters. SWEET!!!!


thats crazy... will the IDI cam have the right lift for the TDI engine though?  if it did that would be totally awesome...

soon to come, convert your 1.9 IDI to TDI!  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 29, 2007, 10:25:44 am
I don't see why not. Same displacement. I got the head, but have to bring it back as someone dropped the ball and didn't resurface it though they charged me for it. Right now you can easily feel and see the machining grooves in it which makes me worry. He said they can put a mirror finish on it if I want. I have started ordering other basic parts like bearings and seals, and have ordered the crank timing gear. Other than the gear, the block will be done next week. I will get pics once I get everything back.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 29, 2007, 12:04:02 pm
I couldn't find much cam info, but what I did find is below. I don't have the stuff needed to measure anything other than lift on the AAZ cam.
AAZ cam
8.34 I cam lift
8.72 E cam lift

From the internet:
Stock TDI cam
Intake Valve Open (1 mm lift)16º ATDC
Intake Valve Close (1 mm lift)25º ABDC
Exhaust Valve Open (1 mm lift)28º BBDC
Exhaust Valve Close (1 mm lift)19º BTDC

performance TDI cam(Not Passenger Performance, just off some foreign site)
9.4 I cam lift
8.6 E cam lift
260°/252° duration
110°/110° lobe center angles
20°/60°-56°/16° valve timing
0.6/0.4 valve lift @ TDC
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: zaprzal on December 30, 2007, 04:45:29 am
Quote
I don't have the stuff needed to measure anything other than lift on the AAZ cam.


check also 1.6 IDI cam, maybe it's better?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Ziptar on December 30, 2007, 07:37:33 am
Wow. This is getting interesting. It's exciting stuff.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on December 30, 2007, 10:53:19 am
Quote from: "zaprzal"
Quote
I don't have the stuff needed to measure anything other than lift on the AAZ cam.


check also 1.6 IDI cam, maybe it's better?

Doing some searching, I found this:
935 racer said: "Yeah the lobe separation is different on all the cams, just stick with the 1.6td cam or go with a performance grind. 1.9td cam is not so hot." So it sounds like he knows all the cam specs. I am however going with the AAZ cam in my build as I have it and as I actually don't want too much HP. My tranny can only handle so much, and after I upgraded my axles, it is the next weak point.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 03, 2008, 12:06:03 am
If you are needing an AAZ cam, I will trade you as I have another one. That way I could see the difference, if any, on my conversion.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 04, 2008, 03:41:23 pm
I finally got around to taking the turbo apart today. While the compressor had been rubbing a little, it isn't as bad as I feared, so I may try to reuse it. The turbine wheel however has taken a beating, probably from piston parts going through it, the vanes are also bent, so I will have to find a way to fix it. I still have a good VNT-15 compressor and scroll and a good GT2552V compressor and scroll, but no good exhaust sides. I do have an extra set of vanes for the VNT-15, so that will be the easiest part of the exhaust to fix.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: subsonic on January 04, 2008, 04:09:09 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
The turbine wheel however has taken a beating, probably from piston parts going through it,


 :shock: Dang!!!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: DonGTI on January 04, 2008, 04:54:58 pm
I'm speachless... here in Malta we've been trying to convert VW IDI' to TDI's ever since the latter popped up but as yet we've never seen a successfull conversion due to a problem with the fuel pump... no one's been able to get good fuelling at high rpm's leading to poor power above 3000 rpm. Somehow we haven't had this problem with other brands such as Rover and Ford.

As soon as pd engines popped up in the late 90's everyone just lost interest and went ahead and fitted skoda PD engines (seen a good mk2 conversion being done recently). I'm keeping my eyes on this thread because from what i've hread i have a lot of the parts mentioned... maybe keep it as a project for summer hollidays...

Congrats for the amazing work you're doing Jimfoo
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 04, 2008, 05:09:38 pm
(http://www.66rover.com/temp/turbine.JPG)
Vane pics to come later after it gets the gooey crap cleaned off.
(http://www.66rover.com/temp/comp.JPG)
There is slight damage to the leading edges. Also near the edges of the vanes, and not very well in focus, you can see where they are slightly wider, which is where they were rubbing slightly.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 05, 2008, 02:54:33 pm
More turbo pics.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1628.jpg)
What the vanes should look like, straight and smooth.

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1627.jpg)
What the vanes looked like, bent and pitted, maybe melted a bit. I'm not positive as I'm sure piston pieces hit them, but I would think the steel would need to be soft for hot aluminum to do this to them. After my engine was dieing, my EGT's were easily getting to 1500F with just moderate throttle so I would bet more on heat being the cause. I would say keep your VNT below 1350 to be on the safe side.

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1626.jpg)
An overhead of the bad and good.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: subsonic on January 05, 2008, 05:02:07 pm
I think you should claim a manufactorers defect :)
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 09, 2008, 04:46:49 pm
Today I brought the crank timing gear down so the crank can be ground. I also brought the head down as they had forgotten to put a smoother surface on it. It should probably be done by Friday or Monday. The pistons I picked up and brought to get ceramic coated. They won't be done until late next week or the week after as his ceramic was getting a little thick so he wanted to order some new stuff. So nothing new as far as pictures go.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 19, 2008, 06:56:59 pm
Yesterday I got my new-used vnt-17, a GT1749VA I guess. It turns out it is exactly the same as my VNT-15 other than flange differences since it is from a european car. My 17 is a .43 AR while the "new" one is a .48, so I swapped the turbine/shaft, bearings into my old center section. I was then going to use the vanes from the "new turbo", but found minor differences that made it impossible, like the bolts that hold the vanes down aren't equally spaced like on my turbo, and the pin that mates with the exhaust scroll was different. Luckily I had the vanes from my first VNT-15 I cannibalized, and they fit. So I now have a turbo again. I bought some ALH injection lines and have them on the way too, so the only major thing I need is the money to send my IP and injectors to Giles. The pistons should be done this next week, block should be done now. Then I will just need a few seals and a head gasket as soon as I can measure piston protrusion. It's slowly moving along.   :D  :D  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 29, 2008, 12:07:03 pm
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/slides/PICT1642.JPG)
I got my pistons back from getting ceramic coated. YAY!!! I also got the block and head back. They weren't done with the crank mod for the TDI pulley however, BOOO!!! It is supposed to be done today however. Then the important question can be answered once and for all, are the pistons too tall. I am pretty much positive the answer is no, or I wouldn't have gone to this much trouble.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on January 29, 2008, 02:03:17 pm
so you're actually trying that groove thing? can't wait to see results!!  :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 29, 2008, 03:22:21 pm
It's just too bad I won't have a before for reference. I figure they can't hurt anything ither than lowering the compression a tiny bit, which will probably be more than made up by the fact that the pistons are 1mm bigger and probably taller. Oh oh oh, my cranks done. Time for a trip...
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on January 29, 2008, 03:45:00 pm
This is exciting stuff :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: subsonic on January 29, 2008, 06:09:01 pm
Who did the coating?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Slave2School on January 29, 2008, 06:17:55 pm
Who did the grooving?  It doesn't look the same on both pistons.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 29, 2008, 08:12:33 pm
Grooving, my bad as I did it. I doubt it is going to do that much, so I don't think a little difference will matter much. Coating by Pristine Powdercoating in Denver, $20 per piston. I put one piston in and measured protrusion, .8mm, so IT WILL WORK!!!, even the same size 2 notch gasket I had before.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Slave2School on January 29, 2008, 09:01:21 pm
I agree it will be interesting to be able to see the results.  I guess we'll have to wait a few years before transparent aluminum is developed :(
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on January 29, 2008, 09:34:56 pm
Quote from: "Slave2School"
I agree it will be interesting to be able to see the results.  I guess we'll have to wait a few years before transparent aluminum is developed :(


if they make glass that can withstand undersea pressures then they can make some for an engine.   :wink:  now building it is another story  :lol:

maybe some kind of small viewport?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on January 29, 2008, 09:52:49 pm
Maybe a diamond engine, if they can ever make ones that big. Won't wear and an excellent conductor of heat. You could get it faceted to pimp it, so it's all sparkly when it runs. :lol:  :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Slave2School on January 29, 2008, 11:50:33 pm
Yes but you'd never find a grill with enough jewelry to compete...
well ok I guess I was wrong :D

(http://lonestartimes.com/images/Weidenhof/grill.jpg)
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: subsonic on January 30, 2008, 08:55:51 am
P-I-M-P OLOGY :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 01, 2008, 06:40:50 pm
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1650.JPG)
Today it was barely warm enough to be able to paint, since I have to do it outside. So I gave the block a nice coat of Detroit Diesel Alpine Green as it is the closest to the stock Rover engine color.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1651.JPG)
I decided to paint the valve cover green too rather than leaving it the stock black. Pulleys however get black.
Or go here (http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/index.html) for the whole project so far.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: MJF on February 02, 2008, 04:57:54 am
Don´t you need TDI valve cover too?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 02, 2008, 09:20:13 am
Damn, now that you mention it....
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Tintin on February 02, 2008, 01:10:26 pm
Jim, If you want, you can run your stock AAZ pump with a 10mm head if you have a 1996 and up AAZ pump for the proper came plate, that run better than just the stock AAZ pump, and PM me for the proper pressure regulator  to match the 10mm head on AAZ pump, you have one in your parts...  héhéhé!! just to know it is which  :wink:

That would be perfect to first run your engine, about 1000-1500miles, and later you will be able to make build a real M-pump.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 02, 2008, 01:52:49 pm
Thanks for the info. I am unsure exactly what year it is. It was supposed to be a 1996 engine, but it has the older style connecting rods, so it's a 1995 or older. I am going to send my pump to Giles soon as I only want the car down one time, plus it is much easier to time with the engine out.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Tintin on February 02, 2008, 04:47:49 pm
I agree
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on February 02, 2008, 06:26:46 pm
i can't wait to try my Giles pump!  out with the 1.6 lump and in with power/fuel economy  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 10, 2008, 11:08:36 pm
Been out of town for 3 days, so nothing yet as I just got home this evening.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 13, 2008, 07:31:38 pm
Ok, a few more pics.  :twisted:  

(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1769.JPG)
One piston in the block.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1770.JPG)
Just a pic of the bottom end with an oil squirter almost visible.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1771.JPG)
Oil pump and tray in place.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1773.JPG)
A pic of a magnet I had in the oil pan by the pickup. It is covered with loads of really fine metal, probably saving at least the oil pump.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1774.JPG)
What the magnet looks like clean.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1775.JPG)
The head sitting in place. It isn't bolted down yet, but soon... I also realized I ordered an AAZ gasket, but I don't think it should make any difference, though it's made to seal around the pre-chambers.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: lord_verminaard on February 14, 2008, 10:08:42 am
Quote from: "jimfoo"
Ok, a few more pics.  :twisted:  


Picky no worky.  :lol:

Brendan
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 14, 2008, 12:05:23 pm
:oops:  Oops, I  made some changes to my website and forgot to update the pic links. All better now!  :P
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: KTZed on February 14, 2008, 12:29:16 pm
Just a thought on the head gasket....youd have to do some calcs but considering how close the tolorances are with measuring piston protrusion and the diff thickness gaskets and all that, the extra volume created by the pre cup cutout might mess up the compression ratio. Then again the TDI's run lower comp anyways so maybe it wont matter. IMO It'd be worth it to do the calcs either way before you bolt 'er down.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 14, 2008, 01:44:27 pm
There is no cutout, just embossing in different places. The hole is still the same as a TDI would have. I don't think it should cause problems.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on February 14, 2008, 02:28:04 pm
that magnet is impressive in an unimpressive sort of way
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 16, 2008, 09:01:27 pm
Well, I decided to work on the IP today. I took the 9mm head off, put the 10 mm head on, swapped the check valves and end cap, put my intermediate spring back in, though stretched it a little for a little more tension, and shimmed the main spring a bit. I then decided to change the timing advance.  My pump was a little different than I expected though. Under the cover I found 2 springs, one inside the other. The smaller spring had 3 shims on the cover side, the larger only had one. I decided to remove all 3 smaller shims as the spring still rode on the larger springs shim rather than the cover. Then I decided to turn the pump over by hand to see how it worked. It doesn't. I guess that having the older AAZ pump, my cam plate has too much lift or is just plain too tall as it bottoms the plunger out on the head. Guess it's time to order parts.:evil:  Anyway, here are some new pics.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1776.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1777.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1778.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1779.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1780.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1783.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1784.JPG)
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1785.JPG)
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 16, 2008, 09:29:51 pm
It appears I have an older AAZ pump with the smaller plunger foot. They looked the same, but it is .03mm too small for the 10mm plunger foot.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: subsonic on February 16, 2008, 10:06:54 pm
I just read on a tintin post that the older aaz pump was better for m-tdi pumps.  I think it was a post from today.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 19, 2008, 01:16:03 am
Today I went to a diesel shop and got the boost pin and spring from a Cummins. The spring is shorter than the AAZ spring, but long enough. It is also much stiffer. The pin has the normal looking offset cone rather than the flat side like a regular AAZ pin. The best thing is that all the guy works on is VE pumps, he has lots of parts, and he can test injectors and pumps.
Title: pump
Post by: boxer246 on February 20, 2008, 11:31:06 am
Jim,
Not to tell you something you probably already know, but if the pump doesnt turn maybe one of the cam rollers came out of position (ask me how I know)....pretty easy thing to happen when re-assembling the pump.  You should be OK with the 1.9 IDI cam and TDI pump head in terms of it not bottoming out.  But I will be really interested in what you end up with here.

 I am in the process of building a AHU m-TDI for my Vanagon.  Actually I just got the motor and am still pulling things apart getting ready for the rebuild.  I may have a bunch of questions for you if you can stand them1  :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 20, 2008, 12:12:00 pm
The problem is the plunger was too big to seat in the cam plate, so it was bottoming out as it was sticking out 2-3mm further than it should. I guess I wouldn't have had the problem with a later AAZ pump as they had the larger plunger foot to begin with.
I don't know how many questions I will be able to answer, but ask away!!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on February 28, 2008, 10:57:43 am
It looks like I will be getting some work done today as I think I have all the parts I need now. I got my new crank bolt and got my new nozzles as I had at least one bad one, and one injector put together wrong so that it had no pressure. Oops, I think it was the very first one I took apart, the different #3 injector. I thought I put it together the way it was, so maybe it was wrong to begin with. I will take them down to get tested, then some serious assembly will begin. Hopefully I will get it started today to make sure I didn't screw the pump up too badly. If I did, I may put it back together as an AAZ pump, then when I get the money, buy a core and have Giles work on it. My stocks are going back up quite a lot, so I may have more $ in the future for such things.
Look for more updates tonight.  :twisted:

 :evil: Well I had to leave the injectors there to probably pick up tomorrow. Sucks as it is almost a 100 mile drive. So all I felt like doing was cleaning other parts.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on February 29, 2008, 04:05:32 pm
This is SOOOOO exciting!  :oops:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 01, 2008, 07:41:57 pm
Ok some updates.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1799.JPG)
Got the timing belt on.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1800.JPG)
Pump on, injectors in and plowplugs in.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1801.JPG)
Things don't line up right using ALH lines.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1802.JPG)
From the back.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1803.JPG)
After lots of creative bending, everything plumbs up.

One other problem I had was timing the pump. For some reason I just can't figure out, I had to jump a tooth on the IP sprocket. So now my pump lock pin is no good when everything else is at TDC. I'm wondering if it might be from the TDI sprocket mod on the crankshaft.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 02, 2008, 11:13:15 am
You guys are asleep, like I must have been. I'm surprised no one said anything about my tensioner being turned the wrong way. Luckily that.s what sleep is for, so your subconscious to tell the rest of your brain that you screwed up before it's too late.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on March 02, 2008, 12:40:13 pm
So aside from the spring mods what did you do to get the pump tdi ready? A tdi pump head and a tdi camplate?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 02, 2008, 01:06:49 pm
Yes, a TDI camplate, 10mm head. And though I hear it won't work instead of changing the control lever, I put a thinner shim under the plunger foot so the bleed port won't open as early. But I worry it might wreck my idle, but there is only one way to find out. :lol:  I will be ready to cover the intake with something other than my hand. I probably won't have the turbo plumbed to the intake for the first start either, but will restrict it's output so as not to overspeed it. I'm not positive the head is TDI as I don't know the difference between a TDI and IDI head. The way it is now though, the collar will come within thousandths of closing the bleed port at full throttle. I'm trying to get motivated to go work on it, but it was 70*F yesterday, and 6+" snow today and still coming down.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 02, 2008, 01:09:51 pm
If I do need to modify thr control lever, I got some pics from Tintin, and it doesn't look like it will be all that bad to do.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: zukgod1 on March 02, 2008, 01:51:21 pm
Quote from: "jimfoo"
But I worry it might wreck my idle, but there is only one way to find out. :lol:


I'm curious why you think your idle will be messed up.

Because of the cam plate?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 02, 2008, 01:54:31 pm
Because I moved the position of the plunger relative to the control collar. Maybe it won't. Maybe the governor will just adapt to the new setting, but I don't know as I couldn't find any info about how the shim affects things.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 05, 2008, 02:52:03 pm
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1804.JPG)
I ended up having to re-bend a couple of the lines as they were in the way of the radiator hose. I also had to buy a new hose to go to the water pump since the TDI head has the bolts for the water outlet in a different orientation.
I also got the new rear seal on. It has been cold and snowy lately though, so between that and me bringing my adapter down to get some work done on it, I probably won't get much else done until Fri or Sat.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 09, 2008, 07:40:21 pm
IT LIVES!!! http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/TDIstart.MOV
The timing seems too retarded even though I have it set at 1.01. I'm thinking having 220 bar injectors is retarding it some. It runs poorly without the advance solenoid energized, and does ok with it, but I'm sure it still needs more. When I first started it, it ran like complete crap, and sounded like it too. I could feel some air coming out the intake, and the intake was louder than the exhaust. I tool the valve cover off to verify timing, which was on, and noticed I could depress the lifters very easily, which I don't think you are supposed to be able to do. The ones I had in it were out of my first head. So I replaced all the squishy ones with ones from my newer but destroyed AAZ head. I started it up and it sounded way better but had a very high idle. I ended up having to re-index the throttle lever on the shaft and turn the fuel down as well. Even without the turbo hooked up, it seems to rev fairly well. I may take the timing cover off the pump and modify it for a little more timing at a later date, as well as adjust the fuel once I get it in the car.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on March 09, 2008, 09:06:29 pm
You are a true scholar. I salute you.

(http://bearcastle.com/blog/wp-images/bow/20060807.jpg)
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: zukgod1 on March 10, 2008, 12:51:07 am
I love it when a plan comes together...

Good job.   :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 10, 2008, 01:04:30 am
Of course, now I wonder how much power I will, or won't have without a modified control lever. Guess I'll find out... :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Ziptar on March 10, 2008, 05:29:14 am
Absolutely Amazing! Nice work. You have blazed a new trail.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 10, 2008, 09:57:28 am
Thanks everyone! I couldn't have done it without all of you and your knowledge, that's for sure. Hopefully it won't be too long before it's on the road again.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on March 10, 2008, 10:17:02 am
Very exciting. Congrats  :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on March 10, 2008, 10:21:25 am
Quote from: "jimfoo"


(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1799.JPG)

I'm surprised no one said anything about my tensioner being turned the wrong way.


It looks right to me???
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 10, 2008, 10:28:10 am
I thought it is supposed to be turned so that belt rotation would turn it in the direction of tighter. In the picture, belt rotation would turn it towards looser.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 10, 2008, 10:42:48 am
Well damn, I looked it up, and yes I did have it right in the picture. Guess I better redo it. :oops:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: zukgod1 on March 10, 2008, 11:12:24 am
Quote from: "jimfoo"
Well damn, I looked it up, and yes I did have it right in the picture. Guess I better redo it. :oops:


Holly crap I had better check mine now..

I may have mine backwards.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on March 10, 2008, 11:26:28 am
I propose this style of engine be called the "jimfoo"!!!!!! I will be building my own jimfoo just as soon as I can source a cheap AAZ (seems to be getting harder and harder lately).
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 10, 2008, 01:20:19 pm
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vincent Waldon on March 10, 2008, 07:08:07 pm
Hey... your test run was caught on video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIPMpUjnbOs
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on March 10, 2008, 07:44:52 pm
Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"
Hey... your test run was caught on video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIPMpUjnbOs


omfg that guy is pro!!!  :shock:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 13, 2008, 10:04:04 am
A short novel about frustration.

No, I'm not driving it yet. I spent an entire day wrestling with the motor, trying to get it mated with the bellhousing. Since the turbo is a pain to deal with when the engine is in, I tried putting the whole thing in together, twisting, turning, prying and pushing. Not happening. So I lift it a little for better access and take the turbo off. Lower the engine in and begin again. No, plates on the engine for the motor mounts are in the way. Remove them and try again. I finally seem to have gotten it started and start putting some bolts in, but forget that one hole is for a short bolt. As I put in the long bolt, I seem to remember as it pushes the two halves of my adapter apart. GRRR, start from square one. I do finally get it started again, but it seems like it doesn't want to go. Realization hits me and I loosen the bolts and rock the truck in gear. Bang, the splines align and slip in place. I put the rest of the bolts in and test the clutch since I took some shims out from behind the pressure plate. The pedal is spongy, which is weird as it's a fairly new master. I pump it a few times and am greeted with a firm pedal, a clutch that works, and a stream of brake fluid running down the floor pan. I think Castrol GT LMA still must not be compatible, or maybe the seals hold until you put in ANY brake fluid, where their destiny of slowly dissolving begins. The next day, I wrestle with the motor mounts. I guess I should have tried making slots instead of holes, but I finally get them on. The turbo then goes on with a little fighting. I hook up the oil lines to the cooler and remote filter. I hook up everything else required to start it, and turn it over with the ignition off. No oil pressure shows, but the key probably needs to be on. So I crank it with the key on but no fuel and still nothing. So I hook up the fuel and start it. At least something still works. It runs, but I'm seeing no oil pressure. Crap. Crawl underneath and remove the filter as maybe I put the lines on backwards, and crank the starter. No, oil is coming from the right place. I go back in the car,  turn the key, start it and still no pressure. Then I realize the two gauges that normally light up with the ignition are dark, so probably none of the gauges have power. All the fusebox wiring looks good as do the fuses, so I'm thinking ignition switch, but my radio works, ruling that out. So I pull apart the dash where the gauges are. I see nothing amiss back there, and with a jumper, they work. So I pull the main dash off, and nothing looks out of place there. Looking at the fusebox again, I push on all the connectors again and some move a tiny bit. Finally the gauges light, but I'm tired and sore from lifting and contorting all day, so that's where things currently stand.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on March 13, 2008, 11:37:10 am
It'll all be worth it once you get it up to speed the first time :twisted:

Good to hear that you actually do have oil pressure. It would be such a piss off to have to take it all apart again.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 13, 2008, 12:24:32 pm
Yet it does bother me that there seems to possibly be a bit of oil running down the front of the block. Not much but enough to piss me off since I put all new seals on it.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 13, 2008, 06:08:20 pm
Homer moment.  :oops:  Yeah, I guess it will leak oil of you don't put the camshaft seal in. I do have 60 psi cold oil pressure at idle thiough. :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 14, 2008, 09:41:08 am
Quote from: "prothe"
I would think that when you put the original block back in the car, that it should go in easier.  Are you using the TDI transmission that is causing you extra frustration?

No, it's in a 1966 Land Rover in a longitudinal orientation with footwells that encroach on either side of the rear of the engine.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 15, 2008, 11:31:10 pm
Well, I'm hoping to be on the road tomorrow, barring more problems. Today I had to fix a leaking water neck on the head, which was a big pain with injector lines, wires, hoses and linkages in the way. I just threw some Right Stuff on it since I didn't have another o-ring. This time I pressure tested it with air before filling it. Got the exhaust wrapped with header wrap, battery box in, alternator in, idler pulley for the water pump on, turbo heat shield modified and put on. I also bought a new Optima so I don't have to worry about acid eating my air hose again. I found the cable for the VNT was very frayed, so I got a new cable for it.
I still need to make sure the fan works, hook up all the turbo tubing to the IC, air filter, manifold ant turbo. The timing sounds a little too advanced, especially with power to the timing solenoid, so I will have to adjust it a little. I need to redo the air filter mount, put on all the body panels I took off. Then I just need to replace my clutch master and I think I am ready to roll!!! :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 17, 2008, 10:25:34 pm
I took my first short test drive this evening!!! The timing still sounds a bit too advanced, so I will retard it a bit more tomorrow. Other than that, it seemed ok for an eco-TDI. I'm thinking the boost line came off the boost gauge as it doesn't move at all, so the LDA probably wasn't adding any extra fuel. The bad thing is my clutch was slipping a bit when I gave it a good amount of throttle. It has done that in the past from a time or two it got some oil on it, so hopefully it will just burn off or something. If not, I guess I can get a puck type clutch disc for a BMW as it will fit with a little filing of the splines. I probably better put my front axle in as well as I got stuck in the snow in my driveway. :lol: It was hard to tell from such a short drive, but it did seem like it had more torque.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vanagoner on March 18, 2008, 08:37:36 am
Fantastic work!  I'm impressed.
I'd like to come down and see it when I have some time.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 18, 2008, 09:24:20 am
I could drive up there sometime. You KNOW I want to start driving it once all the little bugs are worked out. :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on March 18, 2008, 11:35:08 am
video?  :D
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 18, 2008, 11:49:15 am
I'll work on it. What do you want it to be of?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on March 18, 2008, 11:58:45 am
startup, take off and a good beating please
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 18, 2008, 12:04:42 pm
Will do! :lol:  I need to fix my minor problems first, so it probably won't be until later. Also don't forget that my pump setup isn't supposed to be that great as I haven't modified the control lever yet.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vanagoner on March 18, 2008, 03:52:48 pm
"I could drive up there sometime. You KNOW I want to start driving it once all the little bugs are worked out. "

...there is always lefthand canyon... :twisted:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 18, 2008, 09:40:20 pm
Here (http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/TDIdrive.mov) it is, though I'm not totally thrashing it. Too many dogs, kids , cars on my road to fly down it. For some reason, the idle speed is up quite a bit. I'm wondering if I hit the cold start as it has no cable on it and I put something back there to pry the pump out a little to change the timing. I should get one from outside to see what the smoke is like. I know there is a bit when shifting though.
Title: nice work
Post by: boxer246 on March 18, 2008, 11:23:45 pm
Awesome Jim.....thats too cool!
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: burn_your_money on March 19, 2008, 12:28:47 am
wow that things fast. 0-60 before you even started it :shock:  :lol:

I'm highly impressed (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/burnyourmoney/emthup.gif)
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 19, 2008, 12:31:55 am
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  You noticed. Yeah, I screwed it up when I was cleaning a bunch of crap out of it. At least the odometer works now though. Clutch is still slipping, but seems better
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 19, 2008, 06:23:21 pm
Did my first significant test drive today, about 65 miles of very mixed driving. About 20 of 30 mph road, 25 of stop and go city driving, and about 20 highway, mostly uphill with a head wind. Average of 27.5 mpg. That's close to the best(30) just highway mileage I ever got with a broken in engine. Also I don't think my fan ever came on as the temp never got high enough, which was the biggest problem with my old AAZ. EGT's did get to around 1300, which may be due to timing or the fact that for some reason my boost doesn't get as high. Maybe being more efficient, a TDI puts out less exhaust gas? I know the turbo can make it as the actuator got off center a little and boost got way higher, but the setup was the same I had on the AAZ. It made 18 where I had it set on the AAZ and only 10 on the TDI. I did put another spring in the actuator before the drive, which brought it up to 15 psi. Power seems decent, at least what the AAZ had from what I can tell with the slipping clutch.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on March 19, 2008, 06:54:24 pm
Cool. So did you have to time the IP differently than the IDI?

Will this be an easy job for Giles (I think you said you were sending your pump to Giles?) to set-up? I am just wondering if this engine would just be treated like any 1Z. etc m-TDI or if he needs to have the engine for tuning? Does Giles even do m-TDI pumps?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 19, 2008, 07:04:36 pm
Quote from: "rallydiesel"
Cool. So did you have to time the IP differently than the IDI?

Will this be an easy job for Giles (I think you said you were sending your pump to Giles?) to set-up? I am just wondering if this engine would just be treated like any 1Z. etc m-TDI or if he needs to have the engine for tuning? Does Giles even do m-TDI pumps?


I was going to send it to Giles, but was running low on money and really needed to get the car running, so I just worked on it myself. Giles will do M-TDI pumps, and he doesn't need the engine, just needs to know about what you plan to do with it. I will probably save up for a spare pump and send it to him when I get the money. As far as timing, I just set it until it didn't sound too noisy, but I'm sure it isn't optimal. It does start easily however. It's hard to get a gauge on it, but I know it's way more than .040".
That's why I got a transducer to use a timing light, so I can more easily time it, if I can ever find out how many degrees it should be set at.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vincent Waldon on March 19, 2008, 11:27:18 pm
I've read in a couple places that  12 degrees BTDC is the magic number.  Hopefully someone with a timing light will chime in.

While rebuilding my AAZ I punched a timing mark on the flywheel at 12 BTDC in breathless anticipation !
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 20, 2008, 07:07:07 pm
I sort of got my timing light to work. By accident, I found a really weird way to hook it up where it would flash, although it was flashing too much and the mark would jump around a bit. However I was able to fairly confidently say it was at 4 BTDC. I advanced it to 11 BTDC, although I haven't driven it yet. It still sounded ok, not too clattery, so hopefully that will do. The transducer puts out only about .5v according to my meter, although I guess if there is a fast spike, I may not be reading it. The odd way I ended up hooking it up was the lights + terminak on the battery +, the lights - terminal on the un-energized terminal of my fan relay, I guess grounding it through the fan, and the transducer wire to one of the pickup terminals on the light. It wouldn't flash at all if I grounded the light to a regular ground, or if I grounded the other pickup terminal on my light.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vincent Waldon on March 20, 2008, 08:52:16 pm
Cool !

BTW, the timing light *may* move around for real... if your pump is worn... kinda like a worn distributor on a gasser.  Lots of wear... lots of movement.

My Tiny Tach transducer showed up so the experimentation with a home-made timing light adapter begins.  The transducer will put out a very very short spike... if I can I'll post pictures for the geeks out there like me.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on March 20, 2008, 09:54:08 pm
How does a timing light work on a diesel? Is it reading the voltage spike from the alternator?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vincent Waldon on March 20, 2008, 09:59:32 pm
Couple of different methods:

- a piezo transducer is clamped to the #1 or #4  injector line... it detects the small expansion in the line when the injector is fired and drives the timing light.

- #1 or #4 glowplug gets removed and replaced with a translucent cover and a photo detector.  The photo detector sees the flame front and drives the timing light.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 20, 2008, 10:11:26 pm
Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"
Cool !

BTW, the timing light *may* move around for real... if your pump is worn... kinda like a worn distributor on a gasser.  Lots of wear... lots of movement.

My Tiny Tach transducer showed up so the experimentation with a home-made timing light adapter begins.  The transducer will put out a very very short spike... if I can I'll post pictures for the geeks out there like me.

Yeah, I don't have a scope, so seeing the actual waveform might help me make a better adapter.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 22, 2008, 10:59:22 am
I was a little worried yesterday. I noticed my temp was a lot warmer than it had generally been, although I still don't think my fan came on. Then I remembered I advanced the timing, probably causing more heat in the engine as opposed to the exhaust. I was thinking it was way too early for a blown head gasket.  :lol:
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on March 23, 2008, 12:26:28 am
I decided 11 degrees is too advanced with the ALFB (timing advance solenoid) energized. It was pretty loud, and my mileage went down some. With the wire off the terminal, it quieted back down, temp went down some, and it appears to be getting better mileage, though I'm just going by how much the gauge has moved. I will probably leave the timing alone now until I get it on a dyno some day.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: Vincent Waldon on March 24, 2008, 01:32:55 am
Quote from: "jimfoo"
Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"
Cool !

BTW, the timing light *may* move around for real... if your pump is worn... kinda like a worn distributor on a gasser.  Lots of wear... lots of movement.

My Tiny Tach transducer showed up so the experimentation with a home-made timing light adapter begins.  The transducer will put out a very very short spike... if I can I'll post pictures for the geeks out there like me.

Yeah, I don't have a scope, so seeing the actual waveform might help me make a better adapter.


Posted a few pictures in the General forum under a new topic.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on April 11, 2008, 12:38:07 am
Hey Jimfoo, are ALH pistons the same as 1Z? Any idea if a TDI crankshaft would work in the AAZ? And finally, are the rods from an ALH the same dimensions as from an AAZ? What is the difference between the AHU and 1Z anyways?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: mrhutch on April 17, 2008, 09:07:04 pm
AAZ will take a TDI crank
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: rallydiesel on April 17, 2008, 09:59:29 pm
So if I were to use the AAZ rods, what TDI pistons can I use? I have read that there are a couple different wrist pin diameters. Anyone know what diameter pin the AAZ cranks have? Jimfoo, did you use 1Z or AHU pistons?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on April 17, 2008, 10:14:45 pm
I believe 1Z and AHU and ALH are all the same dimension wise. I just used some of Prothe's. ALH pistons are supposed to be stronger though. I believe mine were 26mm, the same as the AAZ.
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jtanguay on April 18, 2008, 07:50:50 am
Quote from: "prothe"
ALH and 1Z/AHU pistons are the same except for the location of the top compression ring.  This was rumored to be done for emissions reasons.  

I finally have 1.6 TDI pistons.  I would love to market them now, but there is a lot of research to be done before I can start selling any kind of TDI conversion package. But the good news is that they are 76.48mm wide and the same height above the piston pin as the 1.6 diesel piston.

(http:// http://www.westportparts.com/images/RK9Piston.JPG )
(http:// http://www.westportparts.com/images/RK9PistonPic2.JPG )


sorry for the thread jack, but the conversion requires sleeving of the block, so it is a bit more involved than just putting everything back together right?  is there a quick and dirty way of sleeving a block? maybe some engines won't need to be sleeved?
Title: IDI to TDI
Post by: jimfoo on April 18, 2008, 10:35:28 am
From his pic, it looks like the standard size is already an oversize from whatever it's original app was, so maybe they aren't possible in oversize for a 1.6 app.