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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: absenth on May 26, 2017, 10:40:10 am
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I have a 1.6L Diesel.
I removed my IS Pulley to gain access to bolts on my water pump.
The IS shaft has a bit of play when pushed in/out, maybe 1/4". Is this normal?
Thanks.
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no
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Didn't think so.
I'm guessing it caused this:
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh626/bdwenger/IS%20Pulley_zpsywvkdtb4.jpg).
Any idea on what is most likely causing the movement? Bearings need replaced? Any thing else I can check prior to pulling the engine?
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Probably the extra thrust movement wasn't the cause of the broken piece from the pulley, but it is definitely not right. I'd say most likely is the thrust ring on the intermediate shaft has broken off. Really easy to check. Remove the pulley and remove the two bolts that hold on the seal carrier.
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Probably the extra thrust movement wasn't the cause of the broken piece from the pulley, but it is definitely not right. I'd say most likely is the thrust ring on the intermediate shaft has broken off. Really easy to check. Remove the pulley and remove the two bolts that hold on the seal carrier.
Thank you. Is this the thrust ring?
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh626/bdwenger/IMG_7125_zpsynhthf10.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/bdwenger/media/IMG_7125_zpsynhthf10.jpg.html)
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Yes, indeed. You need a replacement intermediate shaft. You might also want to check that your oil pump and vac pump both rotate properly and are not damaged. Most often the thrust ring breaks because something prevents one or the other from rotating properly and the shaft gear works like a screw putting excessive force on the thrust ring.
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Understood. Thank you for your time.
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Hey, was the belt riding off the end of the I-shaft pully?
Off center?
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Hey, was the belt riding off the end of the I-shaft pully?
Off center?
I can't say. I haven't had the engine running.
The belt looks to be newer with no visable rubbing marks or cuts. But it may have been installed but never actually ran.
I was going through the steps to do the timing.
While turning the engine over by hand I became a little suspicious of what else may be wrong. Maybe I'm being unnecessarily pessimistic. But you can read my concerns here: http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/108257-Binding-while-turning-diesel-engine-over-by-hand (http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/108257-Binding-while-turning-diesel-engine-over-by-hand).
I think pulling the engine and removing the head to inspect while I plan to replace the IS would be the sensible thing to do. All advice is welcome and would be appreciated.
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I only skimmed that thread. It sounds like the difficulty in turning and the breaking of the thrust ring on the int shaft could be from the same issue. My recommendation is the same as before. Pull the vac pump and make sure it spins easily. Put a socket on the oil pump shaft (careful not to drop it in the sump) and spin the oil pump to make sure it spins easily.
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I only skimmed that thread. It sounds like the difficulty in turning and the breaking of the thrust ring on the int shaft could be from the same issue. My recommendation is the same as before. Pull the vac pump and make sure it spins easily. Put a socket on the oil pump shaft (careful not to drop it in the sump) and spin the oil pump to make sure it spins easily.
Ok. Will do. Thanks.
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Libby is suggesting pulling the two parts that are driven by the IS itself. The gear on the back of the IS indirectly spins the oil pump which is two gears that squeeze it up and out to the rest of the engine. The Vac pump IS the ACTUAL driver of both parts and may also be a gear driven device if you have the upgraded on. But it's shaft fits on top of the oil pump and if either is jammed up for some reason the IS will not turn freely.
Taking them out one at a time and testing is done easily If you remove the timing belt spinning the oil pump should show up as a turning IS shaft so be aware of that. The vacuum pump can be turned by hand once it is out of the engine.
Good luck on this.
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Libby is suggesting pulling the two parts that are driven by the IS itself. The gear on the back spins the oil pump which is two gears that squeeze it up and out to the rest of the engine. The Vac pump may also be a gear driven device if you have the upgraded on. But it's shaft fits on top of the oil pump and if either is jammed up for some reason the IS will not turn freely.
Taking them out one at a time and testing is done easily If you remove the timing belt spinning the oil pump should show up as a turning IS shaft so be aware of that. The vacuum pump can be turned by hand once it is out of the engine.
Good luck on this.
Thanks for the details. Much appreciated.
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If we want to be picky the intermediate shaft drives the vacuum pump. The oil pump has a slotted shaft that fits in to the bottom of the vacuum pump.
Libby's advice holds however - if either pump is not turning freely it can cause the problems you're experiencing.
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There you go, I modified it a bit to make is read as it works. IS drives Vac pump and that drives the Oil Pump. Thanks for keeping us from spreading so so information. We don't want to be picky, we want to be clear and correct.
Correct?
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Is there any good reason to check the vacuum pump and oil pump before pulling the engine?
Seems like it would be much easier to do once its on an engine stand.
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It's trivial to do with the engine installed. There's a single bolt clamping the vacuum pump in place. Undo that, remove the fork and yank it straight out. There's no advantage to doing it in or out, it's the same either way.
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The advantage to doing it with the engine in is that you might cure the actual issue with the engine prior to removal. There is no advantage to doing it when the engine has been removed.
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I am for simple. Doing it with engine installed may save hours pulling the engine. Access on this one is not a problem.
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If either the vacuum pump or oil pump were the only problem I wouldn't consider pulling the engine. But my IS needs to be replaced.
I've read other threads that suggest the option of lowering the engine on the passenger side just enough to slide the IS out to replace it.
That option seems about as challenging as pulling the engine.
Is there another way to replace or repair the IS shaft?
I found this http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,1983,rabbit,1.6l+l4+diesel,1430470,engine,intermediate+shaft+repair+sleeve,10513 (http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,1983,rabbit,1.6l+l4+diesel,1430470,engine,intermediate+shaft+repair+sleeve,10513)
I'm not sure that is applicable to my IS but would something like that last?
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I haven't tried to pull an intermediate shaft out of a rabbit/golf/jetta. I've pulled them out of a couple different vanagons with the engine in place.
Lowering one side of the engine is definitely a lot easier than pulling it, but obviously do whatever you prefer. Less than 5 minutes removing a single bolt would have the vac pump in your hand. Another 1 minute would tell you if the oil pump turns properly. It would take about as much time as it took me to read the last couple replies and write this one.
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Since there is the issue of replacing the IS I think pulling the engine is just going too far. Maybe because for me to be able to do that requires me to drive across town, borrow a buddies lift and then if I have to leave and the engine is out I am walking a long way home.
To lower the transmission side enough to get the shaft out of the front of the engine seems possible to me. I would think that blocking up the bell housing on a floor jack and removing the engine mounts on the drivers and the front of the engine and slowly letting the jack down would tell a guy if you can get the shaft out or not. They are as long as the block so to clear the fender you have to have a pretty steep angle on the engine I would think.
I was thinking I had this same problem yesterday with a worn IS but in sourcing out the noise I found the timing belt was slapping the plastic shroud just under the tensioner. A quick change to that problem and I had a nice quiet engine at idle again.
Let us know how you get this done. Full engine pulled or tweaking it, and sneaking it out without pulling.
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Is there another way to replace or repair the IS shaft?
I found this http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,1983,rabbit,1.6l+l4+diesel,1430470,engine,intermediate+shaft+repair+sleeve,10513 (http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,1983,rabbit,1.6l+l4+diesel,1430470,engine,intermediate+shaft+repair+sleeve,10513)
I'm not sure that is applicable to my IS but would something like that last?
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I meant to reply to this before. The link is to a redi-sleeve that repairs the seal surface. That won't do anything to help with the busted thrust surface. There is not any repair for the broken one currently in your engine. Replacing the intermediate shaft is necessary.
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Just a guess but I kind of agree with you that trying to tilt the engine might be a bit iffy. I just went out and looked at mine and I notice the IM shaft sits down pretty low on the engine and you might have to get it to a pretty significant angle to get the shaft out. In addition to removing 3 of the motor mounts I see all kinds of stuff that you may or may not have to remove as well..... shift linkage, drive shafts, radiator hoses, exhaust. Never have tried it but it could be that by the time you get it to where it will tilt far enough you may be 90% toward having the engine out anyway.
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I haven't tried to pull an intermediate shaft out of a rabbit/golf/jetta. I've pulled them out of a couple different vanagons with the engine in place.
Lowering one side of the engine is definitely a lot easier than pulling it, but obviously do whatever you prefer. Less than 5 minutes removing a single bolt would have the vac pump in your hand. Another 1 minute would tell you if the oil pump turns properly. It would take about as much time as it took me to read the last couple replies and write this one.
I removed the vacuum pump (VP). The bolt wasn't real tight at all. The VP turned easily and made pressure on the return leading back to the engine. Gears looked good. No marks or missing pieces. I looked down into the block to see the gear end of the IS and the top of the shaft belonging to the oil pump. I turned the IS and inspected the IS gears. Looked good. I used a 10mm crescent to turn the oil pump shaft. It turned in both directions very easliy.
I did notice before I removed the IS pulley that when I turned it counter clockwise it would seem to pull toward the block and tighten. That is why I assumed the IS pulley was chipped because it was being pulled toward the block. Anyway I put the pulley back on so I could turn the IS and it had the same kind issue with pulling the pulley toward the block.
With the VP removed the IS shaft turned easily and didn't seem to pull the pulley toward the block.
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Thanks everyone for your time and replies.
I plan on pulling the engine in the next few weeks.
I'll post what I find if anything.
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Just a guess but I kind of agree with you that trying to tilt the engine might be a bit iffy. I just went out and looked at mine and I notice the IM shaft sits down pretty low on the engine and you might have to get it to a pretty significant angle to get the shaft out. In addition to removing 3 of the motor mounts I see all kinds of stuff that you may or may not have to remove as well..... shift linkage, drive shafts, radiator hoses, exhaust. Never have tried it but it could be that by the time you get it to where it will tilt far enough you may be 90% toward having the engine out anyway.
Agreed.
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Can you see where the timing belt was wearing on the injection pump sprocket?
Does the injection pump have bad mainshaft bushings,.. lots of play in the shaft?
I still believe the I-shaft damage is from a belt that is riding toward the cover. It has been on all the ones I've found with a busted thrust washer. Others disagree but I'm still gathering data to support my hypothesis.
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Can you see where the timing belt was wearing on the injection pump sprocket?
Does the injection pump have bad mainshaft bushings,.. lots of play in the shaft?
I still believe the I-shaft damage is from a belt that is riding toward the cover. It has been on all the ones I've found with a busted thrust washer. Others disagree but I'm still gathering data to support my hypothesis.
No.
No play in the shaft.
No experience with them yet, but what I've read here and elsewhere references the timing belt being too tight.
I got my lift and engine stand. Need to source a few more items and I'll get this thing pulled soon.
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so you dont have to pull motor just for im shaft replacement. what i did, mind you this was on a MK2, where the front motor mount is removable, ive long seen the last of mk1's a good while ago, so no real idea on mk1 front motor mount. on a mk2, 1 i removed oil pan, for a jack point. 2 loosen all 3 motor mounts, use oil pan lip, a couple of blocks of wood and a jack, jack up motor, get up some and remove front motor mount bolts/nut(s). jack up some more, make sure you dont put front motor mount flange in to radiator, it will come close. get front motor mount out. now #1 motor will come down so im shaft clears fender. but first you need to check that nothing will hang-up motor on the way down, such as electrical wires, fuel hoses, rad hoses, etc, could make a job really harder. so motor will come down quite a ways for shaft to clear fender. front mount flange will come close to bottoming out. im shaft should clear fender, have a new shaft prepped, and otherwise it can slide back in, except youll want to take the best visual of bearings you can. outer bearing is perhaps serviceable, you d need the tools to pull & press a new one in. inner bearing can be real difficult, probably need a shop for that one, if also the outer one. in reverse jack up motor so you can put mount back in and put that part back together, re-tighten mounts and such. as for your engine hoist is can take place of a jack if you use it right and can perhaps with or with out a jack get motor up & down, at the least it will be like a jack stand, or a support so motor cannt go free and drop, it will have the support like a stand.
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so you dont have to pull motor just for im shaft replacement. what i did, mind you this was on a MK2, where the front motor mount is removable, ive long seen the last of mk1's a good while ago, so no real idea on mk1 front motor mount. on a mk2, 1 i removed oil pan, for a jack point. 2 loosen all 3 motor mounts, use oil pan lip, a couple of blocks of wood and a jack, jack up motor, get up some and remove front motor mount bolts/nut(s). jack up some more, make sure you dont put front motor mount flange in to radiator, it will come close. get front motor mount out. now #1 motor will come down so im shaft clears fender. but first you need to check that nothing will hang-up motor on the way down, such as electrical wires, fuel hoses, rad hoses, etc, could make a job really harder. so motor will come down quite a ways for shaft to clear fender. front mount flange will come close to bottoming out. im shaft should clear fender, have a new shaft prepped, and otherwise it can slide back in, except youll want to take the best visual of bearings you can. outer bearing is perhaps serviceable, you d need the tools to pull & press a new one in. inner bearing can be real difficult, probably need a shop for that one, if also the outer one. in reverse jack up motor so you can put mount back in and put that part back together, re-tighten mounts and such. as for your engine hoist is can take place of a jack if you use it right and can perhaps with or with out a jack get motor up & down, at the least it will be like a jack stand, or a support so motor cannt go free and drop, it will have the support like a stand.
Thanks.
If the engine was running and there were no known problems I would very much consider this option. But, this car and engine are unkown to me.
I've decided if the IM shaft needs to be replaced I might as well just pull the engine, pull the head, inspect, repair, replace, etc.
I'm fortunate that it is not my dd and is a project.
Also, all of this is new to me and I think I will enjoy pulling the engine and learning.
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I finally got the engine pulled earlier this month. "..in the next few weeks." HA!
I haven't removed the IM shaft yet.
Opinions on the kissing of the pistons and valves? Cracks between valves? And anything else that you think would be helpful would be much appreciated. Pics in link below.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpFjK6wrbVXsApkY2VpoFfl44kGn3-GR
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That's a lot of 'kissing'. The exhaust valves hammered quite a bit. It's not very common that you see the intake valve impressions also. I'm impressed... :-P Someone was really, really sloppy with the timing belt. Pistons are still usable unless you find any cracks. Bores are probably worn out so it's probably not relevant. Cracks between the valves look alright.
The valves should all be replaced. Buff the pre-combustion chamber inserts to a shine. You can't tell if they are cracked until you do. If they are cracked, they should be replaced, IMO.
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Initial reaction to the pictures.
Copper spray on head means past head work was done.
Amount of soot on valves now looks like none hitting at this time.
No carbon ridge so head rebuilt a little while ago or lack of driving afterwards.
Valves in Cyls 2 and 3 look shifted so maybe bent when you pull them out. Will be interested to see if they are.
So the valves made it known to the pistons that they wanted to get close. But not all of them are like that so I wouldn't be thinking the problem was timing belt as much as a poor job of shims after the rebuild. I say that only because that is what happened to mine when I had a shop do the work. They were ahem, how do we say that, Not real familiar with the tolerances of the VW engine?
He was sloppy and likely distracted and my guess was he couldn't do math. Not a good thing for a machinist. Some of the gaps were way off on the tight side and others too much gap. Perhaps he didn't know the Exhaust from the input port? I have no clear idea all I know is that when I put the head on I could rotate the crank without hitting the valves. When I started it up they did make noise.
So I shut it down pronto and pulled the head. I found two valves that had made similar marks as those in the photo. So it didn't take but 30 seconds for that to happen. Scary eh?
Cracks look ok between cylinders but a good cleaning will really revel what is going on there.
Since this is not a Daily Driver (DD) then you have time to put some time into cleaning and measuring the head for warping. Get a good straight machinist edge and lay it over the block and slide those feeler gauges under the edge. .004 MM is tolerance if I remember right.
Good luck on the rebuild. Or is it just the intermediate shaft that needed fixing?
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To me, it looks like a tired engine which received an "Einstein paint-mark" timing job last time aroooond.
Nothing runs like a properly rebuilt engine. Take 'err down to the crank!
edit: WAIT....is this a 12 mm bolt engine?
If not....do you have a big dumpster nearby???????
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That's a lot of 'kissing'. The exhaust valves hammered quite a bit. It's not very common that you see the intake valve impressions also. I'm impressed... :-P Someone was really, really sloppy with the timing belt. Pistons are still usable unless you find any cracks. Bores are probably worn out so it's probably not relevant. Cracks between the valves look alright.
The valves should all be replaced. Buff the pre-combustion chamber inserts to a shine. You can't tell if they are cracked until you do. If they are cracked, they should be replaced, IMO.
I was trying to be optimistic. ;D Hammered it is. Many of the pictures I found for comparison made mine seem like kissing.
The timing was off when I checked it. Cam lock in place, ip lock in place, and I could see the timing mark throught the hole but it was to the right of TDC.
Before I checked the timing I did try starting the engine for a total of 20-30 seconds of cranking. I know, I know, I know.
Thank you.
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Initial reaction to the pictures.
Copper spray on head means past head work was done.
Amount of soot on valves now looks like none hitting at this time.
No carbon ridge so head rebuilt a little while ago or lack of driving afterwards.
Valves in Cyls 2 and 3 look shifted so maybe bent when you pull them out. Will be interested to see if they are.
So the valves made it known to the pistons that they wanted to get close. But not all of them are like that so I wouldn't be thinking the problem was timing belt as much as a poor job of shims after the rebuild. I say that only because that is what happened to mine when I had a shop do the work. They were ahem, how do we say that, Not real familiar with the tolerances of the VW engine?
He was sloppy and likely distracted and my guess was he couldn't do math. Not a good thing for a machinist. Some of the gaps were way off on the tight side and others too much gap. Perhaps he didn't know the Exhaust from the input port? I have no clear idea all I know is that when I put the head on I could rotate the crank without hitting the valves. When I started it up they did make noise.
So I shut it down pronto and pulled the head. I found two valves that had made similar marks as those in the photo. So it didn't take but 30 seconds for that to happen. Scary eh?
Cracks look ok between cylinders but a good cleaning will really revel what is going on there.
Since this is not a Daily Driver (DD) then you have time to put some time into cleaning and measuring the head for warping. Get a good straight machinist edge and lay it over the block and slide those feeler gauges under the edge. .004 MM is tolerance if I remember right.
Good luck on the rebuild. Or is it just the intermediate shaft that needed fixing?
I will inspect and post pictures of everything when I remove them.
I did check #4 clearance. My notes: Intake - .25 slides, .35 have to push it in. Exhaust - .45 have to push it in, .35 slightly hits, .25 slides. The lobes were up but IIRC I decided to time the engine first and then check all 4. And of course that lead me to where I am now. My notes may have been before I understood the nuances of using the feeler guages.
Definitely scary. Everything (and everyone) seems to point to doing the rebuild myself. No complaints here. ;D
So cleaning. Brake cleaner? What else? This is my first so I'm learning many many things.
Any recommendations on a good machinist straight edge? Prices vary. Counrty of origin to stay away from? So a flat edge, not a razor edge?
If only it was the intermediate shaft. Rebuild it I shall.
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To me, it looks like a tired engine which received an "Einstein paint-mark" timing job last time aroooond.
Nothing runs like a properly rebuilt engine. Take 'err down to the crank!
edit: WAIT....is this a 12 mm bolt engine?
If not....do you have a big dumpster nearby???????
Gladly. With all the help I've received so far I can't say no.
The head bolts were tripple squares. Block is JK code. Those signs point to 12 mm. Any thing else to check to be definitive?
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Pictures and video of broken IM shaft, and outer bearing.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QLvWKthNRVxWEmJ8jfw8S8f_A57kM4va
I have two candidates for replacement. the gears are different sizes. I did read that the gears can be removed and pressed on. I've read how the thickness of the shaft changed from the 1.5 to1.6 engine as the 1.6 needed more room for the longer stroke. Also how the 1.5 oil pump was shorter and the 1.5 vacuum pump slot was lower to match. Anyone know, or know of a thread somewhere that explains the gear size difference? I'll probably throw the longer geared shaft in at some point and see if it works or not.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ypifmkWXvy8TajhUN5WChK0Coi4_UFxo
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Yes, the JK block should well be a 12 mm bolt-er.
I am a big fan of JK blocks....I turbocharge them and they run great. I run them pretty hard...actually.
Does anybody know what the one shaft with the wide gear is from? Did the 1.5's have wide-face gears?
The intermediate bearings need to be retired and allowed to go to heaven.
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Does the head need to be cleaner than this to accurately measure it for warping? If it does need to be cleaner any suggestions on what to use?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/49014dc49d086b42472ad817bd4f4b38.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/726d4c1ffac098a12f795d27ac95721e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/e6373c30076b3da6841f2a26ba185362.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/58e2f27f2295c2e35353c840dd7a2aed.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/8500dc901651640687fcb05750edfb39.jpg)
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It looks good to me.
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Measured the head and it is within tolerence for warping.
Pulled the pistons. Need to clean, inspect and measure them and measure the bore. No broken rings.
I'm thinking about adding an oil pressure guage. I was reading this thread http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,35877.0.html. (http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,35877.0.html.) Rather than tapping the the oil filter flange or T ing off the low pressure spot on the head has anyone successfully used an oil filter flange from another MK1 or MK2 that is already set up for a sensor? I see the Cabriolets had the high pressure sensor on the oil filter flange. And a few others that might have spots for for 2 sensors. The back of the flanges that I have inspected have different patterns on the side fitted to the block. Any good thoughts on this?
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I use the filter flange for a turbo oil supply line.
An oil pressure sender there would crowd the place up.
Head looks clean.
Another way you can check for straightness is to unbolt the cam, remove the followers and see how much the cam rocks.
Since you already know how warped your head is, this would be a good chance to try that and calibrate yourself to what a warped head cam rocks like.
Your head doesn't look like it's been surfaced before.
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I use the filter flange for a turbo oil supply line.
An oil pressure sender there would crowd the place up.
Head looks clean.
Another way you can check for straightness is to unbolt the cam, remove the followers and see how much the cam rocks.
Since you already know how warped your head is, this would be a good chance to try that and calibrate yourself to what a warped head cam rocks like.
Your head doesn't look like it's been surfaced before.
Yeah, that would seem a bit crowded.
Is what you are suggesting in my Bentley? I do remember that there was a VW tool to attach a dial gauge to measure the sprocket end of the cam with tolerances.
The head is at the maximum tolerance of
.10mm. I had to buy another set of feeler gauges that included a .13mm to make sure. How much can you have removed from the head? I’m wondering how that would work with piston protrusion.
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No the cam rocker check isn't in the bentley.
I'm not sure how much you can remove but the prechambers get pretty sharp if you remove much with them in,.. then you have to line bore the cam.
Doesn't effect piston protrusion to remove metal from the head
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Fatmobile, Doesn't removing some of the head affect the amount of extension the valves have when open? Or does measuring the piston protrusion and getting the right gasket keep it all in check?
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The valves don't extend any farther from the seat.
And where the valves are when open doesn't effect compression.
The piston shouldn't be near the valve when it's fully open.
Maybe someone else as a different opinion on this. But that's how I see it.
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If the timing is set correctly, then the amount of extension of the valves is not a critical factor. Keeping compression ratio, squish, and quench correct is more important, IMO, and to keep those correct would mean using the gasket that is specified based on piston protrusion. Shaving the head does not change piston protrusion so it does not affect which head gasket should be used. All of it is conjecture, though, because VW states that the heads should not be shaved so there is no spec for that condition.
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My brain was taking the day off again. Valves extend past the head but not on the compression stroke. They would both be up and closed. So at the seats. As they travel downwards so does the piston so never the two shall meet.
Unless you get the crank out of sync with the cam. Which we all know is liable to happen when doing the timing belt. That is why one always checks the clearance with a spin or two of the crank. It will go bump if not right.
Sorry for confusing anyone. I was only confused myself. Too much rain lately.
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Thank you to everyone for adding your insight.
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I've measured the cylinders. I'll measure them again as it was my first pass with the bore gauge and micrometer. I can't get it to format nicely on here. Here is a link to the file. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-Ev0IjeW1eZzPtZXZ_fLJ0yY7sE2vdegFEQP0uO1v60
Below are the largest measurements in each cylinder. In Inches.
Cylinder I. 3.0130 II. 3.0135 III. 3.0140 IV. 3.0140
Variation I. 0.0015 II. 0.0020 III. 0.0025 IV. 0.0025
So my question is regarding boring the cylinders to the next larger size. Are there two independent measurements used to come to this decision?
One - is the variation in any one cylinder more than .0015? Then yes bore to the next size?
Two - Is the tolerance of the Standard size bore exceeded (3.0138) in any one cylinder? Then yes bore to the next size?
I am answering yes to both of these.
Am I getting this correct? I'm measuring variation between any two measurements in a single cylinder. Rather than the A and B measurements at a given level.
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Hmmm, after deglazing the cylinders will you be over the limit? If I'm not mistaken, the spec is the piston to bore clearance. If your used pistons are worn, that wear adds to the clearance. If I'm reading your chart correctly it looks like cylinder 3 is over the spec for out-of-round (III 1A and 1B difference is 0.0020).
All of that said if you deglaze and rering it, you'll probably get a lot more miles out of it.
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Hmmm, after deglazing the cylinders will you be over the limit? If I'm not mistaken, the spec is the piston to bore clearance. If your used pistons are worn, that wear adds to the clearance. If I'm reading your chart correctly it looks like cylinder 3 is over the spec for out-of-round (III 1A and 1B difference is 0.0020).
All of that said if you deglaze and rering it, you'll probably get a lot more miles out of it.
Yes, you are correct.
The Bentley says if there are variations of .002 or more among the measurements made in any one cylinder then it must be rebored for a larger piston. I took that as any measurement to another, not comparing 1A to 1B, 2A to 2B, etc. I thought 2,3 and 4 were over. I see where that wouldn’t make sense when checking out-of-round.
Also, I’ve mistaken the Grading groups for the repair groups. I’ll circle back to Bentley reading 101 and rework my question.
I believe measurements in 2, 3 and 4 are above the third honing group of the Basic cylinder bore (3.0130).
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Hmmm, after deglazing the cylinders will you be over the limit? If I'm not mistaken, the spec is the piston to bore clearance. If your used pistons are worn, that wear adds to the clearance. If I'm reading your chart correctly it looks like cylinder 3 is over the spec for out-of-round (III 1A and 1B difference is 0.0020).
All of that said if you deglaze and rering it, you'll probably get a lot more miles out of it.
So you are saying even with measurements in cylinders 3 & 4 that are above the wear limit and at a minimum cylinder 3 is out-of-round, you think it would work to deglaze the cylinders and install new rings? How many miles would you guess before it would have to be bored up? How likely would this come with immediate oil consumption and blow-by? I'm trying to get a sense of what doing this would be like vs having the block bored up a size.
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General question regarding piston sizing. I've looked at new pistons on many websites and it seems I can find the Standard size, then 77.00, and 77.50. Are pistons no longer made that would fit into the Repair Stage 1 range of 76.73-76.75?
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General question regarding piston sizing. I've looked at new pistons on many websites and it seems I can find the Standard size, then 77.00, and 77.50. Are pistons no longer made that would fit into the Repair Stage 1 range of 76.73-76.75?
After digging deep on this, I believe the answer is these pistons were hard to find 15 years ago. And the rings even harder.
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Hmmm, after deglazing the cylinders will you be over the limit? If I'm not mistaken, the spec is the piston to bore clearance. If your used pistons are worn, that wear adds to the clearance. If I'm reading your chart correctly it looks like cylinder 3 is over the spec for out-of-round (III 1A and 1B difference is 0.0020).
All of that said if you deglaze and rering it, you'll probably get a lot more miles out of it.
So you are saying even with measurements in cylinders 3 & 4 that are above the wear limit and at a minimum cylinder 3 is out-of-round, you think it would work to deglaze the cylinders and install new rings? How many miles would you guess before it would have to be bored up? How likely would this come with immediate oil consumption and blow-by? I'm trying to get a sense of what doing this would be like vs having the block bored up a size.
After measuring again and reading my Bentley it seems that I could have the cylinders deglazed to 76.53 (3.0130) and use new 76.50 pistons. My current pistons are 76.48. All cylinder diameter measurements are within tolereance for the 76.50 pistons.
Any suggestions on what else I should consider?
Thanks.
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I'll be dropping my block off at a shop and have them take measurements. I think they could hone the cylinders and stay within the tolerance range (high end) for new 76.50 pistons and rings. But it seems a waste to pay to have work done and not be at specs. Maybe if I was honing it at home and could reuse the pistons and replace the rings I would feel better about it. I'm driving myself a little crazy going back and forth about it.
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Pictures and video of broken IM shaft, and outer bearing.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QLvWKthNRVxWEmJ8jfw8S8f_A57kM4va
I have two candidates for replacement. the gears are different sizes. I did read that the gears can be removed and pressed on. I've read how the thickness of the shaft changed from the 1.5 to1.6 engine as the 1.6 needed more room for the longer stroke. Also how the 1.5 oil pump was shorter and the 1.5 vacuum pump slot was lower to match. Anyone know, or know of a thread somewhere that explains the gear size difference? I'll probably throw the longer geared shaft in at some point and see if it works or not.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ypifmkWXvy8TajhUN5WChK0Coi4_UFxo
I did put both geared sized IM shafts in and they both seemed to turn smoothly. However, the one with the thinner gear seemed to turn easier. The shaft with the thicker gear stuck past the oil pump gear and seemed to serve no purpose. So, I can only guess the shorter gear is meant for the 1.6 diesel.
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The crank on a 1.6 will hit the I-shaft if it's the one that doesn't have the taper cut off the gear.
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The crank on a 1.6 will hit the I-shaft if it's the one that doesn't have the taper cut off the gear.
Thanks for reminding me about that. I haven’t removed the crank yet. I’ll put the larger Shaft in and see if the crank hits it.
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The crank on a 1.6 will hit the I-shaft if it's the one that doesn't have the taper cut off the gear.
Both shafts worked. I have what I need for the rebuild. I was hoping to find something definitive regarding the I-shafts, 1.5 vs 1.6, gear size etc.
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Both shafts had the taper cutoff the gear?
Or teeth the full length of the gear?
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Both shafts had the taper cutoff the gear?
Or teeth the full length of the gear?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180807/974fbdb55d2308496a612119f2dcbacd.jpg)
By “taper cutoff” do you mean how the gear on the left is tapered toward the shaft?
Both of these had no problem with the crank clearing them. The gear end on the right stuck past the vacuum pump gear unnecessarily.
I thought the shaft from the 1.5 was not tapered (or less tapered) toward the gear end, and that is where the 1.6 crank could contact somewhere close to the gear end?
I’ve read many, many threads but couldn’t find a definitive answer.
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My buddy got a shaft like the one on the right,.. and after install he couldn't turn the crank because it hit the I-shaft.
Did you take a look to see how close the crank goes to the I-shaft.?
Sure it's not 1.5 guts in a 1.6 block right?
Those gears can be pressed off
and with heat on the gear and a frozen shaft they go right back on.
So you can even use a gasser I-shaft,.. that has the reversed gear.
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My buddy got a shaft like the one on the right,.. and after install he couldn't turn the crank because it hit the I-shaft.
Did you take a look to see how close the crank goes to the I-shaft.?
Sure it's not 1.5 guts in a 1.6 block right?
Those gears can be pressed off
and with heat on the gear and a frozen shaft they go right back on.
So you can even use a gasser I-shaft,.. that has the reversed gear.
I put my finger between the crank and shaft/gear at the closest point in rotation IIRC.
I haven’t considered if the internals were swapped. The I shaft with the broken flange had the smaller type gear end. I suppose I could measure the crank journals. I’ll have to find the thread with the differences. Something like 44 vs 46?
Is this you here talking about your buddy? https://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10397
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My buddy got a shaft like the one on the right,.. and after install he couldn't turn the crank because it hit the I-shaft.
Did you take a look to see how close the crank goes to the I-shaft.?
Sure it's not 1.5 guts in a 1.6 block right?
Those gears can be pressed off
and with heat on the gear and a frozen shaft they go right back on.
So you can even use a gasser I-shaft,.. that has the reversed gear.
I put my finger between the crank and shaft/gear at the closest point in rotation IIRC.
I haven’t considered if the internals were swapped. The I shaft with the broken flange had the smaller type gear end. I suppose I could measure the crank journals. I’ll have to find the thread with the differences. Something like 44 vs 46?
Is this you here talking about your buddy? https://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10397
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My Crank Rod Journals measure 47.8mm.
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Yep that's my post.
I never saw the crank hit the gear but he's a good mechanic and said it did
and after I sold him one with the cut gear it worked fine.
That's the size of the 1.6 rod journals.
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Yep that's my post.
I never saw the crank hit the gear but he's a good mechanic and said it did
and after I sold him one with the cut gear it worked fine.
That's the size of the 1.6 rod journals.
Thanks for confirming the journal size. I placed my crankshaft and the larger uncut gear back in the block. There is space to fit my finger tip between the Throw and the gear. But I don’t think that is where the impact would occur. By doing this I now believe the rod or rod cap would be the culprit.
Once I reassemble my engine I’ll throw the suspected 1.5 I-shaft in and I’ll see if I can get a clear picture of the contact.
Thanks for your help.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180811/fec2ee61e42a2a2fbceda8e1a9cc30f5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180811/ba750cd293b7148d7a2fd3c7c1019a07.jpg)
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I said it wrong too,.. it wouldn't have been the crank that hit the gear.
He never removed the rods so it would have been one of them that hit.
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Another way you can check for straightness is to unbolt the cam, remove the followers and see how much the cam rocks.
Since you already know how warped your head is, this would be a good chance to try that and calibrate yourself to what a warped head cam rocks like.
Your head doesn't look like it's been surfaced before.
What tool, besides my eyes, should I use for the cam rock check?
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It's by feel.
Feel how much it rocks.