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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: 410 on August 17, 2013, 10:49:31 pm

Title: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 17, 2013, 10:49:31 pm
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0574_zps77812002.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/410-photos/media/IMG_0574_zps77812002.jpg.html)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0582_zps83b7f300.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/410-photos/media/IMG_0582_zps83b7f300.jpg.html)

I guess the vnt 15 couldn't handle all the abuse I've been throwing at it lately.  I've been planning on ordering a vnt 17 for my golf and keep this one as a spare for the wife's car but there's no way this one will ever run again.  
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: burn_your_money on August 17, 2013, 11:50:43 pm
Did you remove it with a hammer or is that the way it failed?
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 17, 2013, 11:55:02 pm
That is the way it failed.  I reached down to remove the spring clamp and the compressor housing moved. 
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on August 18, 2013, 05:07:47 am
That is one way to lube your linkage.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: theman53 on August 18, 2013, 08:31:36 am
New center section and cold side it could make it LOL
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 18, 2013, 09:06:50 am
New center section and cold side it could make it LOL
That's if the exhaust housing is untouched.  Vnt-17 has been ordered.  I just hope the intercooler caught all the shrapnel.  I really don't feel like changing the motor out right now.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: theman53 on August 18, 2013, 09:49:07 am
Did it give any signs of letting go or did it just go boom
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: burn_your_money on August 18, 2013, 10:05:36 am
What tune do you have?
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 18, 2013, 11:18:10 am
FWIW, the VNT15 and VNT17 share the same exhaust side and center section (they are actually both gt17XXv turbos).  The compressor is larger on the 17 and my understanding is that it makes it less likely to overspeed but more likely to surge. 
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 18, 2013, 07:25:45 pm
FWIW, the VNT15 and VNT17 share the same exhaust side and center section (they are actually both gt17XXv turbos).  The compressor is larger on the 17 and my understanding is that it makes it less likely to overspeed but more likely to surge.  
I am not sure about the hot sides or the center sections being the same but I have no specs to verify that.  The compressors are different for sure but for some reason I thought the hot side is also bigger.  I'll report back once I get the turbo.  I also have a 1749va kicking around for comparison.

I have a pretty aggressive tune but I don't blame the tune at all.  My drive to work is quite short and even though I drive quite aggressively, I have a problem with vanes sticking in a short period of time.  
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 18, 2013, 07:29:18 pm
Did it give any signs of letting go or did it just go boom
A few days before I noticed a slight, faint whine at higher boost levels.  It never got worse and actually went away a bit.  And then it just went bang on a second gear pull.  Did you notice that the nut is still on the shaft? ;)
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: theman53 on August 18, 2013, 07:48:51 pm
From what I have read there are 3 VNT 15 turbos. A 1749a, a 1749b, and a 1749c   or is it va, vb, vc??? I cannot remember, but the 17/22 is as Andrew says. The 3 vnt 15's are pretty much identical, I guess they made small changes in the cold side and that was all. I think the "c" is the one everyone wants for performance. It has been a bit since I read about it, so I could be off on that.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 18, 2013, 09:12:37 pm
FWIW, the VNT15 and VNT17 share the same exhaust side and center section (they are actually both gt17XXv turbos).  The compressor is larger on the 17 and my understanding is that it makes it less likely to overspeed but more likely to surge. 
I am not sure about the hot sides or the center sections being the same but I have no specs to verify that.  The turbines are different for sure but for some reason I thought the hot side is also bigger.  I'll report back once I get the turbo.  I also have a 1749va kicking around for comparison.

The turbines aren't different.  The compressors are. 
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: RabbitJockey on August 20, 2013, 07:41:44 am
im thinking maybe he thinks the compressor wheel is the turbine?  easy to mistake
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 20, 2013, 06:21:18 pm
No I'm not confusing the turbine with the compressor.  Like I said I'll compare turbos once the vnt17 shows up.  The 1749vb is a little laggy from what I hear so imo the exhaust side is different.  If the only difference is a bigger compressor side then it would be less laggy then the vnt 15.

Edit: Oops, apparently I did mix up the turbine and impeller.  I was thinking compressor and wrote turbine.  The previous post has been corrected.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 20, 2013, 06:29:15 pm
The shaft itself is much stronger (middle section is full width) and so there is a fair bit more rotating mass/inertia.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 20, 2013, 06:30:20 pm
The shaft itself is much stronger (middle section is full width) and so there is a fair bit more rotating mass/inertia.
So the center sections aren't the same. ;)
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: RabbitJockey on August 21, 2013, 01:05:15 pm
The shaft itself is much stronger (middle section is full width) and so there is a fair bit more rotating mass/inertia.
So the center sections aren't the same. ;)

i see what you're saying

but technically the center section is considered the bearing/seal housing.  where as what you guys are talking about is the turbine shaft, it generally is all one piece with the turbine wheel.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 21, 2013, 02:51:29 pm
I supposed I over-simplified when I said the turbine and center section were the same.  When I stated that the turbines were the same, I meant that the fins are dimensionally the same.  The shaft which is attached to the turbine is lightened (weakened) on the VNT15.  The center sections, meaning bearings, oil ports, casing are the same.  Even still there are some slight differences between the integrated manifold and separate manifold versions.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 21, 2013, 07:12:58 pm
My turbo should be here tomorrow. :)  I have been searching all over the web for some solid answers on the differences between these turbos and I'm not coming up with much.  Can't wait to get my car on the road again. 
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: theman53 on August 21, 2013, 08:01:48 pm
36.60mm A/R=.65 on GT1749V and VNT15
37.26mm A/R=.61 on GT1749VA
38.23mm A/R=.61 on GT1749VB
38.65mm A/R=.62 on GT1749VC (Third generation vane)
40mm A/R=.74 on GTB1756VK (Third generation vane)

All pulled from the internet so I cannot say what is accurate or not.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: theman53 on August 21, 2013, 08:10:18 pm
From the Streettoys2000.com website... in his product details section. He used to post here.

                                                               Turbo Identification

Many people get confused with all the V, VA's and VB's etc...hopefully I may help you further understand a little about turbo identification.

 One of the most confusing turbo designation is the "15", however I hear questions daily from newer customers that don't quite understand.

 GT 1749 V : The GT means that it is a Garrett Turbocharger built By Garrett/Honeywell. The first two numbers in the designation ( in this case the 17 ) is a designation used to describe the "hot side" of the turbo, or the frame size in that particular family group.
 the last two numbers ( in this case the 49 ) are the numbers that describe the wheel size of that turbo measured at the base, the largest diameter of the wheel, in millimeters, known as the "Exducer" on the intake wheel.
 The V at the end of the designation describes the turbo as being a VNT turbo, an abbreviation for = Variable Nozzle Turbine.

 I re-stamp any turbo that I modify. I feel that since I changed bore and wheel sizes and at times make my own compressor wheels, and turbine wheels, it is no longer a "genuine" Garrett product. Rather than a "Modified upgrade". For that reason my designations always start with S/T (Street Toys).

 When Garrett first started coming out with the VNT 15 V for Volkswagen, That was at that time it's final designated name( or #). As their line of Turbos grew, they added the GT17V sieries, as they added more to that series they began to upgrade both compressor and turbine sizes within that particular "frame" size. This was the beginning of the 1749VA, VB, VC as we know them today. Since the 15 was alone in its designated group and was really not at all much smaller, they decided to eliminate the "15" designation and incorporate it into the GT 1749 series turbo. So with that in mind, the Garrett GT 15 V is today the turbo known as the GT1749V. The one and the same. The next larger in that family is the GT1749VA, which is actually not at all that much larger than the "V"(15) Followed by the turbo most people decide is a decent upgrade, the GT1749VB. to give you all an example of what size difference there are I compiled this chart.

Bores and comparisons


Garrett designated turbos           intake Bore                     Exhaust Bore

GT 1749 V (GT15)                             1.326"                                 1.441"

 GT 1749 VA                                        1.390"                                 1.467"

 GT 1749 VB (THE"17)                      1.459"                                 1.505"

 GT 2052 V(The "20)                          1.550***                              1.550***

 GT 2252 V                                           1.550 ***                                  ***

 GT 2356                                              1. 587                                   1.605

 GT 2552 V                                 to many sizes to list               1.550 to 1.700

*** These sizes vary in different series within that particular family group. Example, there are over 100 variations of the VNT 20 alone. The sizes shown here are of the most common sizes that are used in turbos manufactured for use in VW applications.

Street Toys Hybrid Specs         intake Bore                        Exhaust Bore

Hybrid 17/52(17/22)                      1.550(52mm wheel)              1.505"

 S/T 1852 VG                                    1.550" (52mm wheel)           1.620"
 "Hammerhead"

 S/T 1856SV                                     1.590" (56mm wheel)           1.620"
 "Hammerhead SV"

 S/T-3-B                                              1.590 (56mm wheel)             1.750"

 S/T-4-D (Ported Shroud)               1.775 ( 60mm wheel)            1.830"


Both of our 56 and 60 mm compressor wheels are custom made with Street Toys specs.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: theman53 on August 21, 2013, 08:10:58 pm
To make the way to find this easier, I am posting the page I pulled that from here.

http://www.streettoys2000.com/proddetail.php?prod=trp
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 22, 2013, 08:46:23 pm
My vnt 17 showed up today and after a quick measurement, the exhaust turbine is bigger then the vnt 15.  I'll have my camera with me tomorrow so I'll take some pics of the differences.  The hot sides are not the same without a doubt.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 22, 2013, 09:49:55 pm
Thanks for the clarification guys.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 28, 2013, 09:05:14 pm
So after a fair amount of work, my car is up and running again.  I came real close to killing the motor.  There was oil in all the wrong places and almost no oil was left in the crankcase.  Once I got the turbo out, I also removed the intercooler and piping, exhaust and injectors.  The exhaust had a fair bit of oil, the lower intercooler pipe was full and there was oil in all the cylinders.  I used my mightyvac to suck out as much oil as I could out of the cylinders and literally washed the intercooler inside and out. 

The one part I didn't buy was the $200 charge pipe that goes from the turbo outlet to the pancake pipe that runs along the inside of the passenger side wheel well.  The pancake pipe appears to be a bit restrictive so I planned on removing that anyway.  I soon found out that there's a reason this pipe is flat.  There isn't a lot of room for larger piping.  I'll have to rework it a bit so it fits right.  Even though I saved a couple hundred by not buying that hose it would have made things a lot easier.

So now that I have a couple drives on this turbo, it feels very similar to the vnt 15.  There might be a pinch of lag in comparison but since I'm tuned with larger injectors and a free flowing exhaust, I can barely notice it. 

I think it might be time to get my spare motor ready if I plan to drive it like I stole it.  At 487,000 km I might be pushing my luck.  I wouldn't be surprised if I bent the rods a little with all the oil that was in the cylinders.  Maybe that's the Redneck way of lowering compression! ::)

Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 8v-of-fury on August 28, 2013, 09:52:36 pm
LoL.

That is awesome to hear shes back up and POWERHAUSING!

Get that spare ready.. I need to find one myself ;)
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: dieselherb1 on August 30, 2013, 09:53:07 am
Is there a lot of work using the GT2052? Which manifold is using? Are they VNT or wastegate?
Thanks
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on August 31, 2013, 07:47:13 pm
Is there a lot of work using the GT2052? Which manifold is using? Are they VNT or wastegate?
Thanks
I've never used the gt2052 myself.  There is a thread over on TDI club about installing one.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=360678&highlight=ma+vanes
This should answer all your questions.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on September 05, 2013, 12:07:21 am
After a week of driving, the car is running really well.  I mentioned in an earlier post that the short drives I do cause the vanes in the turbo to stick within a very short period of time.  And I mean it when I say short period.  The vanes start sticking in less than a week.  The best way I found to prevent blowing up another turbo is to lengthen the vacuum actuator rod to put a bit of extra preload on the vane lever.  I set it so that it would just start moving with 5" of vacuum.  It barely reached the end of it's travel at 20" of vacuum.  

I wasn't sure if I would have an issue but turns out the vacuum actuator rod can be adjusted with more preload on the vane lever and still work perfectly and save your turbo.  I fired up the car, reached down and grabbed the vane lever.  It was in the full closed position(max vacuum) and I could not pull the lever off it's stop.  

So my conclusion
-Vanes were sticking
-Vacuum actuator rod length not long enough.  Which led to not enough spring force from vacuum actuator to overcome sticky vanes causing boost spikes.
-Too many boost spikes caused the compressor to eventually fail.  Less than 1000km.  The turbo wasn't new but had half the km the engine has and looked to be in good shape.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: libbydiesel on September 08, 2013, 09:56:45 pm
I have found that if the vanes get sticky a drive up a couple decent highway grades can cure it.
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: 410 on October 23, 2013, 08:04:06 pm
Sadly I have had the time to compare the vnt 17 turbine and shaft to the vnt 15 turbine.
The vnt 17 turbine is on the left.  It's not the best picture but it's easy to see the size difference.  Also the shafts are very similar in design.  The vnt 17 shaft is a little bit longer on the compressor end since the compressor is also bigger.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0589_zps2221ae11.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/410-photos/media/IMG_0589_zps2221ae11.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Tune+nozzles+surging turbo=BOOM!
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on October 27, 2013, 01:42:42 pm
Did it give any signs of letting go or did it just go boom
A few days before I noticed a slight, faint whine at higher boost levels.  It never got worse and actually went away a bit.  And then it just went bang on a second gear pull.  Did you notice that the nut is still on the shaft? ;)

Mine used to whine like a roots charger, then one day, it did the EXACT same thing...

no joke, SAME THING.. thought someone posted up my old pics for a second..

i actually abused mine for a LONG TIME before it finally went boom..

mine went boom 120 miles from home tho!!

my compressor wheel stayed slightly more intact tho, even after driving it 100+ miles without an intake hooked up to it

bearings and all 3 housings were wasted after that, and i darn near ran my engine out of oil as well..