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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: subsonic on February 26, 2007, 10:11:06 pm
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Taken from: Making the jump N/A to TD
Well, the man said to ask you. So........
Subsonic wrote Injectors / nozzles: Lots and lots of information. Some say no change, just difference between old and new. More fuel at higher pressure is better, but what is the upper end? With all the nozzles I see for sale out there, is there a difference in spray pattern? Are certain spray patterns better suited for 1.9’s or 1.6’s? Many I see don’t actually say what size the nozzle is. I would expect that this would be one of the pieces of information Giles would need to get you the correct pump set up.
jtaguay replied:
[/quote]The stock, gtd, 1.9td are all so close that it won't make much differnt to Giles for the pump setup, but if you do have them already, then it wouldn't hurt either, the biggest baddest ones out there are really hard to get ahold of as Jake is preoccupied with other things, but the dieselicous ones are supposed to be huge, agian I know Malone has a set, but they are untested to this point. Merc nozzles provide better flow then any of the vw ones. I know that Malone and Dave @ PP tested some ahwile back and so they probably would be the ones to ask about this. As well Dr. Diesel had shaved the pintle or shimed the pintle for more lift and got a fair bit more out of the stockers iirc.
What kind of results did you guy's see? Which injectors did you test? Are the Merc ones comperable to Dieselicous nozzles?
Thanks Jim
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OK, that's not exactly how it was supposed to come out :?
Have patience, I'll figure out this quote code list stuff eventually :oops:
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I lost about 10 HP after switching from brand new OEM injectors to brand new GTD nozzles (swapped into used injector bodies & pop-tested). The GTD injector set however had a slightly higher breaking pressure, which may have affected fuel timing. Still, the question of GTD gains over new OEM injectors remain.
You'll surely see an improvement if you get new GTDs (or whatever new nozzles) over an old set of nozzles. New nozzles replacing worn ones will restore fuel economy, power, and reduce smoke.
With MB 300D injectors I think I felt a little more power.. but I was running NA at the time, not under boost, and it was very dark out so I couldn't tell how much extra smoke there were. I would test these injectors again with boost. I don't have a running TD at the moment though.
I still have the prized Dieselicious nozzles, they're rare.. I really wish my TD's running so I can try these nozzles, but it'll have to wait.
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I'm actually feeling a bit of a drop in performance myself with the GTD injectors... maybe i'll try advancing my pump to see if it helps any... so far i think my economy went up a little though :) and there is a little less smoke.
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If I need new VW injectors I would probably buy brand new OEMs (preferably brand new, not refurbished) instead of GTDs. It costs more though, about 265 CAD for a set if I remember correctly unless you find a good source.
The power loss with GTDs was very noticeable. I have not been convinced that advancing the timing a bit to compensate for the higher breaking pressure will not only restore the lost 10HP, but also gain a few more HP.
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If I need new VW injectors I would probably buy brand new OEMs (preferably brand new, not refurbished) instead of GTDs. It costs more though, about 265 CAD for a set if I remember correctly unless you find a good source.
The power loss with GTDs was very noticeable. I have not been convinced that advancing the timing a bit to compensate for the higher breaking pressure will not only restore the lost 10HP, but also gain a few more HP.
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Do oem GTD injectors have different springs to standard? so that you don't get GTD effects with only GTD nozzles? Perhaps this accounts for the powerloss? I'm just speculating here but.... if power is related to fuel volume in any given situation then loss of power must (may)(partly) be due to less fuel. If both springs were set to the same tension (opening bars-wize) but the pintle travels further in a pure GTD setup due to a weaker spring then the standard springs would 'open less' and give less fuel ...eh??...:roll: {bit convoluted sorry}
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I've run a few sets of the MB complete injectors on a few locals rides now, definately more power than GTD or OEM, not a huge kick in the pants but every bit counts :wink:
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Does anyone actually say what the flowrate,or opening size is on nozzles? Sometimes I see a number designation and other times it is just described as more powerful. What Merc injectors where you using?
Just how big are these bad ass dieselicious injectors?
I am starting to move off theroretical and will need some soon.
Thanks, Jim
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I should have noted that the GTD nozzles I tried were aftermarket, not genuine. A brand new set of genuine GTD injectors may be slightly better than standard 1.6TD injectors but they're likely more expensive.
The Dieselicious custom nozzles flow about 64% more than what GTDs flow over stock if I remember correctly.
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Do you have a link for the Dieselicious nozzles? I did a google search and got way too many links for gay porn.
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:lol:
fspGTD (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6) on this board produced these nozzles. He named his company Dieselicious and he did business only on this site as far as I know, which is why you didn't find non-homoerotic links anywhere else.
He was one of the most valuable contributors to the IDI community, but a few months ago he disappeared online. Presumably to concentrate more on his fatherly duties.
fspGTD's webpage, although outdated, has his e-mail address on it:
http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/
You may have a better chance reaching him via email. I sort of doubt he's continuing production of the Dieselicious nozzles (I imagine it's labour-intensive), but it doesn't hurt to ask.
Cheers,
Mark
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i have been trying to get ahold of jake sincei moved to seattle. it drives me nuts knowing he lives in the same city as me and i have yet to meet the man :x
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Anyone have a clue if GTD springs have a different characteristic to OEM?
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Yeah where the hell is Jake? :?
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64% over stock GTD! Damn! Has anyone actually run these dieselicious injectors in thier rides. Back in the day before midnight diaper changes, what did a set go for? Man with these and the GSP (Giles Super Pump :) ) you must be pumping out the fuel like the Valdeez.
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I think the only set made are malone's, which I kind of think are still sitting in my shop, or maybe he has them now, regardless I don't think anyone has tried them yet. I'd sure like to try though!
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I think the only set made are malone's, which I kind of think are still sitting in my shop, or maybe he has them now, regardless I don't think anyone has tried them yet. I'd sure like to try though!
x2! 8)
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You know Dave,
If you really need a digital camera I will be glad to bring mine up. Just leave the back door to your shop unlocked and I will go in and do a midnight swap. err......I mean drop it off for you :)
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I have been calling around trying to find someone who could give me some info on flow rates for the merc injectors, no luck. The worst people to talk to are the people in the dealerships. " we dont sell vw parts." " I know, they swap, please tell me which injector for your 300 series td has the highest flow rate." " What?" " You know, flow rate. How much fuel it puts out." "Uhhhh........you mean for a vw?" " Thanks for your time, have a nice day".
Well, I found a small shop near my house that does injection service work. I asked this guy the same question. " I'll have to check my flow rate data. Give me a call back tommorow" Sweet.
I call today and the guy tells me he has some people checking on it. Since he asks, I tell him about my build plans. The guy must know his buisness becase he tells me, you will have flow problems at high RPM, you may want to look at a Cummins pump, that way if you want to go to a M-TDI in the future you should be all set, it can be modified to put big fuel out. He also said he was thinking that road application nozzles might be a roadblock to big fuel. He said he was going too research offroad and marine high performance nozzles. He suspected a direct swap and a 155 BAR operating pressure. Flow would be greatly increased. " They might put so much fuel you might burn a piston." Yeah Baby :!: :twisted:
I will get in touch with him later today. Will keep you posted.
Jim
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LOL! Yeah! "It's not enough fuel unless I can cut through metal with 'em." :D
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v <-- TDI in progress
01 Jeep TJ 4.0
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Keep us posted! I'm tryin to find some merc injectors but i'm still not 100% sure if they will be higher flow.
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OK,
I think I will drop off a set of injectors at this guys shop. For your reference the nozzle he is talking about is............................................................................
a Bosch nozzle, he designated it by the part number as 8S2. He is still waiting on a callback on the actual flow rate, but said this nozzle will put out 2 to 3 times as much fuel as a stock 1.6TD nozzle. Read that as
200-300% increase in fuel. :shock: Next question. Should I load these bad boys into 1.6 or 1.9 injector bodies?
If any of you have contacts with anyone who deals in bosch nozzles please hit them up for any information you can get on these. I will not know for a few days (going into the long portion of my work week) if these are spec'ed for marine, off-road or industrial use. All feed back is greatly appreciated. I really hope this pans out. If these puppies really flow that much more fuel, what would that mean for advances in possible power? Will I have to buy federal smokestack clean air emmission credits to run these things :D
Dig deep, go forth and shake the bushes and report back with intel.
Jim
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So could you just order a set of nozzles and use that p/n? Where to get?? I'm in need of rebuilding my injectors and would much rather go this route!!! :twisted:
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Well, like I said. I'm going into the long part of my week. I probably will not be able to get in touch with him again until monday. I work 10 hour shifts. I am pretty sure these are not automobile spec injectors. He mentioned high perf. off-road / marine or industrial. I know that makes it kind of hard to research. Had dinner going and kids crying and fighting while I was trying to talk to him on the phone :x . That is the part number for the nozzle as far as I can tell. "You could go with a bosch 8S2 nozzle." I would try them out in my ride when I get them done, but I am driving a 1.6NA that is tired. I don't think it would be worth it to me to put them in until I get my build done. Also, I have never done buisness with this fellow. A very reputable diesel shop reccommended him, and he appears to know his buisness, but thats as far as I can go right now on vouching for him. When he gets all his details together, price, flow rates, full part numbers,, catalog ref numbers etc. I will pass it on. He said he did not have this part on his shelves, but it would be no problem getting them in. He wanted $20.00 per injector to do the swap and pop test to what pressure you wanted. Not sure if that is a good deal or not.
Will keep you posted. If, and I say if, it works out, I would have no problem passing on orders to him, or picking some up and mailing them out if you wanted some and could not pick them up from a local seller. It would be nice to have a couple sets of comparison data inputs from different engine setups to see if this really would be benificial.
Talk to you soon, Jim
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Well i'm interested for sure. In the near future i'd be interested in getting some. I'll call a few shops around here and if you get any where let us know. Awesome find! :D
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OK,
I've tracked down the Bosch part number for these nozzles. The nozzle is a DN8S2 Bosch part# 0 434 200 012
Whole injector is Bosch part# 0 432 226 003
This cross references with a Mercedes part# 605 300 100 013
I was unable to get flow rate date still. It is supposed to be way more.
I was told that on the complete injector its operating pressure is 125BAR
Could we use this nozzle at a higher operating pressure?
If anyone out there can use this information to try and find some flow rate data that would be great.
If anyone has the Bosch part# for the 1.9td injector I need it for the Bosch tech to see if this will fit in the 1.9 bodies. He said it willl fit in a 1.6
body.
JIM
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AFAIK, 1.9TD nozzles fit the 1.6 injector bodies so they should work.
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I would think you could raise the pressure up to 155bar if you wanted. I believe it would lower the flow just a little but they are already flowing more i'm sure.
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What's about the DNOSD261 mercedes Nozzles?
I looked with Esitronic for DN8S2 nozzles and it do not have there mention for Mercedes.
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I called 2 shops about the DN8S2 nozzles, they both quoted me $43 a piece. Does anybody have the Bosch PN for the DNOSD261 nozzles?
They also said it would be about $22/ injector to pressure test and balce them. $65/ injector $260 for a set. I guess thats not bad, but more than i want to spend right now.
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DNOSD261 = 0 434 250 120
Which is the difference between DNOSD261 and DN8S2 ?
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Who the heck knows. Everytime I call Bosch or mercedes or vw, no one will tell me the flow rates of any of their nozzles. Is this some kind of top secret, secret squirrel ***? I was just looking for more flow than stock 1.6 or 1.9 injectors. People pointed to the 300TD injectors, but no one had data, They just seemed faster. The injection shop guys told me the DN8S2 flowed a hell of a lot of fuel, like two to three times stock. Again no data. No one I know has run them yet. Named Tintin, have you run the DNOSD261 that you posted about? Is there some way to find out flow rates from these? If you hooked up the injector to a pop tester could you measure the quantity of fuel it dipenses at it breaking preasure? Does this remain constant, or does the rate change over the rpm scale?
Who has a inside man at Bosch that will give up some basic freaking information! :x
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I called a place in MS and asked for a price on DN8S2 nozzles $43. He was very curious what I wanted to use this in. I told him a Benz and he stated "you donn't miind meltin stuff" southern drawl. He states those injectors are for very high HP engines..engines I never heard of. And seriously doubts that the pump will be able to fuel the nozzles and it probably won't idle. He also stated that bosch doesn't make a bigger nozzle than this and they do not rate pintle injectors by flow rate. Bosch doesn't give out that info. You'd have to get the info from either a bosch engineer or a engineer that uses that nozzle in their engine.
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So could we find out the "stages" or different sizes they offer? Maybe a little higher up than the factory injectors? I still would like to try an run these.
:twisted: 12mm giles super pump pushin these injectors, PP intake/DP/cam, with twin chargers to back them up! :twisted:
And seriously doubts that the pump will be able to fuel the nozzles and it probably won't idle. He also stated that bosch doesn't make a bigger nozzle than this
That makes me want them even more! :twisted:
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I called 4 places and the price was all the same at $43. So I assume that's the list price. If we could get these things for $25 I'd buy a set. $43 is a little high
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Yeah baby! Go big or go home! That would be almost the same conversation I had with the injector guy in my area. He did not know flow rate, but knew they were WAY more than stock. He mentioned stuff I hadnt heard of either. I think they must be European. Any of you guys inEurope heard of these? Is there really a danger of melting pistons? I was told that the injector bodies for this setup ran at 125 bar. How would we go about measuring flow rate on this nozzle? Is this somthing Giles could help with?
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I wondering about a couple of things...the engines the diesel tech I was talking to was referring to big farm/tractor engines. Are the pre-chambers on those engines much bigger than a vw unit? I would assume so? What if the nozzle spray pattern is so large that pre-chamber converts it back to a liquid because of its smaller size which would not be good.
The tech also advised that the breaking pressure is not set to the nozzle but rather the application. Which makes sense..vw uses the same nozzle for usa 1.6D and td but with different break pressure. A nozzle that flows this high, I think a higher break pressure would be better than a lower one. Especially since the pintle would barely be coming off it's seat at idle a higher pop pressure would itemize the fuel better. I assume one would have to run a 11mm or 12mm pump anyway. why not raise the pop pressure to 175-195 bar.
May be able to create the ultimate 1.7td with 1.9tdhead or a 1.9td with this nozzle. I suggest the 1.9 head because of the bigger pre-chambers and better flowing head. It will also reduce compression which with these nozzles may be critical as I'm sure one would have to run 30+psi of boost to make this thing work...do I hear a vnt turbo spooling up?? I wish I knew this earlier I have a set of Bosio GTD nozzles sitting on the shelf waiting for me to finally assemble my 1.7td with 1.9td head.
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Why not take nozzles of 6.2/6.5D GMC? Very easy to find, and not expensive.
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Why not take nozzles of 6.2/6.5D GMC? Very easy to find, and not expensive.
I seem to recall hearing someone say they won't fit in the injector bodies?
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What is wrong with stock injectors :?:
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humm!!, the old Redrotor's MK2 jetta 1.6TD had nozzles of 6.2 or 6.5.
My friend who has to buy this car, the removed it, that made a bad idle and poor performance (black smoke).
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So I was wondering, just how much fuel is too much? I know that is a application specific, but as a reference. As a base for this question I nominate the 1.9td head. It will be going on a 1.6, but not sure if that makes a difference. I read here somewhere about the volume of the pre-chambers. Can anyone figure out what the maximum amount of fuel that can be burned given this volume. This may take some wierd math to figure out. Is there a specific burn rate of fuel? How much time does it have to complete its burn during the piston revolution? Would propane quicken the burn time? Breaks over... back to work. See ya later.
Jim
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I do not know how much fuel is too much for IDI prechamber.
I bought Mercedes nozzles (261) best than I could measure the hole, they seems to be 0.10mm larger than the GTD nozzle, that appears small, but I sure that made a considerable difference in fact.
I do not have time to test them before this week end, on AAZ.
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I've tried the Mb nozzles a few times they are great, I think it was the 6.5 nozzles I also went to try but they weren't even close to fitting, they could have been 6.2 nozzles though.
I would just use the MB nozzles and call it good. There are a ton of other things that will give you a lot more gains and a lot of other things to be concerned about than nozzles on an IDI (as long as they are clean and rebuilt that is).
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There are a few ways you may measure the flow rating, and one such way is by using a calibrated test stand. Another method to yield results arises from injecting a fixed pressure via a pressure chamber released by a solenoid valve, and time the valve to open only for a short, fixed temporal interval. The injected quantity would then be measured in a proper vessel, so the results could be observed.
It may be possible to fit the nozzles with a far lower spring seat pressure, for test safety, and ease of collecting the injected quantity. When comparing subsequent nozzles, it would be optimal to use the very same spring rate for the same resulting opening pressure.
Of course, a possible easier method is simply to fit the test nozzles to an engine, and measure the results on a rolling road, before and after the test nozzle are installed, assuming other variables could be held constant.
An excellent benefit for those running high charge pressures (I am running >45 p.s.i.), comes from an increase in breaking pressures of the injectors. This is due to better, and more proper atomization from the increased charge pressure to atmospheric pressure. However, if the opening pressure is increased, an inversely proportional relationship exists with the injected quantity. A simple way to maintain the injected quantity is to increase the nozzle’s aperture. Depending on the increase in diameter, you may maintain the previous injected quantity before the increase in opening pressure, or hopefully exceed this value.
Another detail that might pose problems for us, lies within the Bosch number itself. I’ve read that it should contain the nozzles theta for the spray cone. Ideally, it should at least be the same as the stock fitted nozzles. Does anyone have access to these metrics for the nozzles 0 434 200 012, 0 434 250 120 and the stock fitted nozzles?