VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: moTthediesel on May 12, 2010, 11:41:10 pm
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I haven't posted on here in a while, but I thought you guys would get a charge out of this. We finished up working on our newest version of the TD Porsche 356 we've been wrenching on for the last 3 years. Now with a hydro head 1.6 and dual Honda bike rads mounted in the front fenders, it's getting closer to what we want it to be. We had it entered in the May 8 "Green Grand Prix" (http://www.greengrandprix.com/index.htm (http://www.greengrandprix.com/index.htm)) in the fuel economy run. We had almost no debugging time on the car, never the less, my wife and I loaded up for the 4 hour trip down to Watkins Glen.
Here we are ready to push off .
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/P5070067.jpg)
We had a couple of breakdowns along the way, it blew a rad hose off on a back road east of Syracuse and coasted into the yard of a truck and tractor repair shop. Turns out the owner also builds pulling trucks, here you see him looking at our little tiny power plant, he got quite a kick out of it!
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/P5070068.jpg)
After we finally made it down there we met up with a crew from the Canadian version of the Discovery Channel, they are going to do a bit on our car for the "Daily Planet" show. It won't be shown in the US, but maybe some of you Canucks will get to see it. I let the on-air guy, Alan Nursall, drive it a little on camera -- I think he liked it! Here's a pic of me and my navigator Steve with one of the Discovery Ch. cameramen. We had a blast with those guys, they were lots of fun --
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/P5080078.jpg)
The deal is that all the competitors fuel at the Valero station in the Glen, you pump until the first click of the pump. Then all the cars, running at 1 minute intervals, lap Seneca Lake (80 miles) staying within 10% of posted speed. When you return to town you fuel again - same station - same pump - again fueling until the first click. We burned 1.08 gals for the loop, running with about 50% bio-diesel in the tank - yeah, that's 74mpg! Believe it or not, some of the other competitors did even better, but we did "win" our class, though I'm not sure just what that was, maybe the "Diesel Porsche" class? Anyway, I was tickled with that result, though having done 74, I won't be happy now until we can break 80 --
Here's a shot of us being flagged off --
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/P5080080.jpg)
No problems at all driving home on Sunday, except for having to drive through a nice Mothers Day snow without having the heater hooked up, but it was still a great time!
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I don't know really what to say right now - other than full fledge Congratulations !!
sumvabiscuiteater ! 74mpg ... w0w
Could throw about 200 questions at you though ....
But will go easy and just ask what speed was that you were to stay within, on average ?
Way to go man, that car and the achievement is truely awesome.
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Its on this week on Discovery Canada. Its garage mechanics week. I'll try to record it onto my computer for you and get it hosted and posted.
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But will go easy and just ask what speed was that you were to stay within, on average ?
Most of the route was 2 lane state roads with a 55mph speed limit, so we tried to average about 50. We also went through Geneva NY which is a pretty good size town, and lots of villages with lower limits. The idea to achieve maximum mileage is to "drive with load" that is to say, conserve momentum and limit engine loads. I tried to do this by staying below 550F on the EGT. My steady-state reading when traveling 55-60mph on flat ground is about 450F in 4th @ 2100 rpm. I find that lugging the engine up hills results in increased temps, so on steep grades (and there are plenty of those down there in the Finger Lakes country) we shifted down to 3rd and let our speed drop down to 45 or so. On one long upgrade we did see about 650F, but most times we could keep it where we wanted it. On down grades we coasted when possible, even key-off on the long grade on 414 South approaching Watkins Glen. We passed a county cop going the other way half way down that hill with us going about 65. Thankfully, he didn't come after us, that would have been a first for me - to get a speeding ticket with the engine off ;D
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Its on this week on Discovery Canada. Its garage mechanics week. I'll try to record it onto my computer for you and get it hosted and posted.
Thanks, I'd really appreciate that!
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Very cool!
What kind of mileage did you get on the trip down?
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what gearbox do you have?
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Very cool!
What kind of mileage did you get on the trip down?
For the whole trip, including the economy run, we got 61mpg.
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YOu could put it up on torrentreactor.net or some similar bit torrent site so we call can see it. Every Saturday we watch Doctor Who on BBC 1 in the UK this way as it is not shown here until months later, and then with about 10 minutes taken out for the long commercials we put up with here..
Great job on the conversion !!!
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what gearbox do you have?
I had Rancho build me a special VW type 1 swing axle box. It has a 3.78 1st, a 2.06 2nd, a 1.21 3rd. and a 0.7 4th, with a 3.44 R&P. The guy I dealt with at Rancho said it was the tallest ratio box he'd ever seen them build 8)
That whole gearbox with welded gears, a 4 spider diff, core charge, and delivery - cost less than just a tall 4th gear set would have been for the original Porsche box --
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thats awesome ;D. I used to go to Alexandria Bay all the time when I was at school in potdam. cool car too ;D :P
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Now if we could get Americans into the diesel scene, maybe the automakers will leave some diesels here and let us enjoy them more instead of sending them to Europe {no offense..;)}
Saw a website where a Mercedes in a Chrysler 300 achieved 41mpg. Big car luxury at VW mileage.
And congrats for the work you did in achieving that awesome mileage. Maybe next year it won't be cold on the ride home. :)
Stay safe, stay well. Jimmy.
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:o
totally awesome!
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Spectacular! Standing ovation on this end!
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Nice ride!! MORE PICS!!!! ;D
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Very impressive!
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Congrats Dad!!!! Hhahaha bet you didnt know I had a user name on here did ya??? I didnt either till I clicked on your link and I was signed in hahaha. The car looks awesome!!! and WOW I cant believe 74 mpgs!!!!! Maybe I can take it for a little cruise on memorial day??? I hope some one posts a link to that vid I really want to see that
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Congrats Dad!!!! Hhahaha bet you didnt know I had a user name on here did ya??? I didnt either till I clicked on your link and I was signed in hahaha. The car looks awesome!!! and WOW I cant believe 74 mpgs!!!!! Maybe I can take it for a little cruise on memorial day??? I hope some one posts a link to that vid I really want to see that
Thanks Scoot --
Yeah, maybe I'll toss ya the keys for a bit, if you play your cards right ;)
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i just want to point out that the 74mpg is not realistic to normal driving because of it just being one drive for an hour not 2 weeks worth of everyday driving sitting in traffic (not that i'm saying there wasn't any). but i once took my rabbit auto diesel and did the same thing, i filled up then drove for an hour and filled up again at the same pump, and i think i got like 60-65 mpg. not that what you have done is nothing, because i am certainly a fan of anything with a vw diesel in it, especially a 356.
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Great conversion and truly impressive results! Yeah... more pics, please.
J.R.
SoCal
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i just want to point out that the 74mpg is not realistic to normal driving because of it just being one drive for an hour not 2 weeks worth of everyday driving sitting in traffic (not that i'm saying there wasn't any). but i once took my rabbit auto diesel and did the same thing, i filled up then drove for an hour and filled up again at the same pump, and i think i got like 60-65 mpg. not that what you have done is nothing, because i am certainly a fan of anything with a vw diesel in it, especially a 356.
Oh yeah, this number does not represent a realistic every-day driving number. This is a competition, and everybody was driving in extreme conservation mode, that is using "driving with load", and "pulse and glide" techniques. In "dwl" you try to accelerate slowly and conserve momentum at all times, you allow speed to fall on upgades and coast the downgrades. That's the plan I use, along with watching my EGT as an indication of how much work the engine doing. In "pulse and glide", the driver continually accelerates slowly from a chosen minimum speed (say 45mph) to a chosen maximum (say 60), and then coasts back to minimum. Repeat ad nauseum -- ;)
Not the most fun type of driving maybe, but challenging and rewarding. The accuracy of the filling technique is another factor of course. This event uses the "first click fill" method -- that is you fill at a given pump at a given station, you run the course and return to the same pump. With the car in the same position, you fill again -- doing everything (nozzle position, amount of "squeeze", etc) the same, stopping again at the "first click" of the pump. I think that's not the most accurate way of doing this, especially with a relatively short course of only 80 miles. I'm working now on a funnel/float gauge that I hope will give more accurate and repeatable results, we'll see --
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That is a very good number for the hills, and roads of the area. Congrats!
More pictures of the car would be nice, and maybe some of the landrover in your sig.?
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i just want to point out that the 74mpg is not realistic to normal driving because of it just being one drive for an hour not 2 weeks worth of everyday driving sitting in traffic (not that i'm saying there wasn't any). but i once took my rabbit auto diesel and did the same thing, i filled up then drove for an hour and filled up again at the same pump, and i think i got like 60-65 mpg. not that what you have done is nothing, because i am certainly a fan of anything with a vw diesel in it, especially a 356.
Oh yeah, this number does not represent a realistic every-day driving number. This is a competition, and everybody was driving in extreme conservation mode, that is using "driving with load", and "pulse and glide" techniques. In "dwl" you try to accelerate slowly and conserve momentum at all times, you allow speed to fall on upgades and coast the downgrades. That's the plan I use, along with watching my EGT as an indication of how much work the engine doing. In "pulse and glide", the driver continually accelerates slowly from a chosen minimum speed (say 45mph) to a chosen maximum (say 60), and then coasts back to minimum. Repeat ad nauseum -- ;)
Not the most fun type of driving maybe, but challenging and rewarding. The accuracy of the filling technique is another factor of course. This event uses the "first click fill" method -- that is you fill at a given pump at a given station, you run the course and return to the same pump. With the car in the same position, you fill again -- doing everything (nozzle position, amount of "squeeze", etc) the same, stopping again at the "first click" of the pump. I think that's not the most accurate way of doing this, especially with a relatively short course of only 80 miles. I'm working now on a funnel/float gauge that I hope will give more accurate and repeatable results, we'll see --
I was not aware of certain tactics on achieving such high mileage. All I did was the speed limit (at most 62 mph), coasted when I could and was very easy on acceleration. Unlike your trip, I was stuck in rush hour traffic quite a few times. Not using the 'one click' method, for I prefer filling up my tank to the lip of the filler neck (which can take a bit of time), I averaged my 89 1.6 NA at 55.9 mpg. I also got a lot of the famous NY 'one fingered waves' and I was in the right lane. :)
My best tank was 715 miles on 14.5 gallons, which came out to 49.3 mpg.
74 mpg is awesome. Again, congratulations.
Stay safe, stay well. Jimmy.
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For those interested in modifying and driving for maximum mileage, here's a website with all kinds of great info -- http://ecomodder.com/ (http://ecomodder.com/)
Since a few people have asked, here's a couple other pictures of our car, it's engine, and components --
Rolling it out of my barn after 20 years on jack stands --
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/2005_0721356inshop0001.jpg)
Ready to go --
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/P7230018.jpg)
Prime mover -
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/2004_0101enginebay0016.jpg)
VNT15 and exhaust -
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/2004_0101exhaust0003.jpg)
We no longer run with a muffler ;D
Mini-keg airbox by Heineken -- and cone filter -
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/2004_0101kegairbox0002.jpg)
Mechanical VNT controller -
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/2004_0101VNTcontrol0002.jpg)
Controller mounted on long-runner manifold -
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/motthediesel/2004_0101VNTcontrol0003-1.jpg)
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Great project.
thanks for the engine pics,.. the engine doesn't have much lean to it.
Is there a kit for matching our engine up to that trany?
I remembered this when I saw your VNT controller.
It inspired parts of mine.
Can't remember if your vanes are closed at idle,..encoraging the turbo whine?
My VNT15 is loud at idle, when the vanes are open and gasses go around the impeller.
Pretty loud without a muffler?
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Proof that holding onto 'junk' for 20 years can pay off ;D
I read somewhere BMW did a bunch of testing, and concluded burn and coast was most efficient.
Faced with an overheating problem, I reasoned more efficient operation generates less heat, so might help.
the vehicle a 1977 Mercedes o309D converted to Chevrolet 350, but with no mods to the cooling system, and not much place for air to go after the radiator.
(http://files.minutemachine.com/fotosmaq/v2/11761/923601mm_1-2.jpg)
^like this...
It ran very good down here by the ocean, and got about 9MPG. Air assist brakes, and Alison 540 auto made music, but Reno in the day was a bit much for it.
I'd nail it on any downhill(more MPH for less effort), then maintain just enough throttle to crest the next hill(let the radiator blow out the heat I'd just put in).
Not only did I stay cool, I ran 150 miles at 15 MPG!
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Great project.
thanks for the engine pics,.. the engine doesn't have much lean to it.
Is there a kit for matching our engine up to that trany?
Actually, though it's hard to tell from the picture, it has the standard 15 deg mount angle. I used a Kennedy adapter (http://www.kennedyeng.com/ (http://www.kennedyeng.com/)) to mount the engine to the tranny. Putting the engine in the car was not hard at all, the challenge is getting all the accessories and equipment in there. You think a Golf engine compartment is small? Ha! ;D
I remembered this when I saw your VNT controller.
It inspired parts of mine.
Can't remember if your vanes are closed at idle,..encoraging the turbo whine?
My VNT15 is loud at idle, when the vanes are open and gasses go around the impeller.
Pretty loud without a muffler?
Yes, the vanes are open at idle, so you basically "drive the vanes" with the accelerator pedal -- and for sure, it whistles like a Pratt & Whitney at low speeds 8) It's not terribly loud though, and all the sound is behind you - just go faster and you can leave it behind!
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I was not aware of certain tactics on achieving such high mileage. All I did was the speed limit (at most 62 mph), coasted when I could and was very easy on acceleration. Unlike your trip, I was stuck in rush hour traffic quite a few times. Not using the 'one click' method, for I prefer filling up my tank to the lip of the filler neck (which can take a bit of time),
That can work well in some cars, but some are prone to getting air pockets in the tank which can throw your results off.
I averaged my 89 1.6 NA at 55.9 mpg. I also got a lot of the famous NY 'one fingered waves' and I was in the right lane. :)
That can be a problem! Most of the roads on this course had wide breakdown lane type shoulders though, so we just pulled over and let the other traffic pass.
74 mpg is awesome. Again, congratulations.
Stay safe, stay well. Jimmy.
Just a tick under 50mpg with a stock IDI DubDiesel is nothing to sneeze at either -- good on ya!
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Wow! that's impressive.
That block looks a lot fancier than when I dropped off to you at Clayton last year.
Michiel
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Thanks Michiel!
Your engine worked out very nice for me, it was already 2nd over bored, but the cross hatching looked fresh, so I just re-ringed it and built it up. The crank was perfect and even the IM shaft bearings checked out OK, so it was good to go.
I've told a bunch of people about your sweet diesel Doka, that is some great ride! That night I met you to get the block, my wife was all excited when she got home from work in Watertown. She told my son and I that she saw "the coolest car southbound on I-81 just now, it was like a VW bus, but with a pickup back!"
Sound like anyone you know? ;)
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do you have any pictures of your diesel landcruiser.. is it a 40 or 60 series? I was a toyota diesel guy (I guess I still am) until I married a vw girl.