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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 10, 2009, 11:58:24 am
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My IP is leaking pretty bad and it appears to be leaking from the distributor head o-ring. Has anyone replaced that o-ring with the IP in the car? I have A/C and to remove the IP it looks like the compressor has to come off first to allow access to one of the two IP engine block mount bolts- a lot more work than I'd like.
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Ive got the same setup - you can remove the pump without unmounting the compressor its just 4 bolts 3 pulley side and 1 on the back side, unbolt the pump pulley slap a gear puller on it and remove.
Its risky business working the high pressure pump head while on the car
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You can do it but it's tricky. I'd also suggest removing the pump unless you know about the internals of IP's and can put it back together if it falls apart on you.
Be certain to turn the pump over by hand several times after you are done to verify you got it right.
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I've got the o-ring in- a viton one! Did it without removing the pump. It was tight and I had to grind down a T-30 bit 3/8 drive in order for the bit to fit square on the 4 torx bolts. Had a close call when I used the T-30 on the Hex allen head bolt for the plate bracket thinking they were all the same! Luckily it came off without stripping! Only found out it was hex when I couldn't get the T-30 bit off the allen head after it came out! I kept things clean as best as I can and took some pics which I'll post later (in a day or 2). I turned the engine over at the crankshaft bolt and it turned without resistance so that's good sign. Still have to put the injector lines and other stuff back and see if the leak is taken care of. Wish me luck and thanks all for the tips!
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Just came back from a test drive and the leak is no more! Yeah! However, the miss is still there. If I pull the cold start lever out a little, it smooths out the idle a bit. What should I try next? Rebuild the injectors? What should the compression be for my engine? I checked it a few weeks ago and it was 450, 475, 400, 475. Are they acceptable?
I don't see anywetness on the head gasket anymore so what thought was a coolant leak was diesel leak from the IP spraying back and not coolant. I will keep a close watch on coolant level just to be sure.
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However, the miss is still there. If I pull the cold start lever out a little, it smooths out the idle a bit. What should I try next? Rebuild the injectors? What should the compression be for my engine? I checked it a few weeks ago and it was 450, 475, 400, 475. Are they acceptable?
Your compression is good, minimum is 398psi, some on this board have less than that.
For the miss it sounds like your timing is a bit retarded. Rebuilt injectors aren't a bad idea anyways, IIRC the recommended life span is 60,000 miles.
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I did check the IP timing with a dial indicator and it was spot on at 0.040". Maybe I should check it again. I also had the injectors out and pop tested them for spray pattern and they all looked similar with the similar opening pressure. I didn't spend a lot of time on them just a quick check. I think the opening pressure was 1800 psi? The nozzle faces was pretty flat and not eroded down like a high mileage injector. What should the opening pressure be for the injectors? Damm, my Bently, which I ordered more than 3 weeks ago is still not here yet. I'm going to give that Amazon store a bad feedback- that's for sure!.
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I did check the IP timing with a dial indicator and it was spot on at 0.040".
Yours is a turbo ? Spec for a turbo is 1.00 mm = 0.0396" - others are down to 0.83 or so mm.
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For anyone attempting to replace the o-ring with the pump on the car, you must maintain pressure on the main plunger while you loosen the bolts that hold the distributor head in place. Otherwise you run the very serious risk of destroying the pump.
Andrew
That is correct. An keeping things clean is also very important! The way I kept pressure on the main plunger was by backing the four T-30 torx bolts out just enough to expose the o-ring, then remove only one at a time to slip the o-ring over each T-30. That means at any given time there's always 3 T-30 in place.
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I did check the IP timing with a dial indicator and it was spot on at 0.040".
Yours is a turbo ? Spec for a turbo is 1.00 mm = 0.0396" - others are down to 0.83 or so mm.
Mine has a turbo but without fuel enrichment
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(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/1244723009.jpg)
This shows the rear IP mounting plate already removed. Note that 2 of the bolts on the plate are hex heads, not Torx. Use the right bit! Note also the delivery valves are capped to keep dirt out. The box wrench was used for leverage on a 1/4 drive ratchet driving a 3/8 drive T-30 bit to crack the bottom rear corner bolt. Make sure your bit is not cocked and fit square and seated all the way in the T-30.
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(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/1244696841-1.jpg)
Solenoid valve removed and head taped up with duct tape to keep dirt away. Note the four T-30"s are backed out just enough to expose the o-ring, which has been lifted and cut. Use a sharp awl that is softer than the cast iron head to get the o-ring out, brass, aluminum, bone etc so you don't nick the o-ring grove. The old o-ring was stuck on the groove pretty good and I had to undo one T-30 at a time to "unwind" the o-ring off the groove.
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(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/1244696839-1.jpg)
Old o-ring is off and new Viton o-ring ready to go on. Don't know if the pic show it, but this Viton o-ring is brown in color. I want to be able to run biodiesel and SVO so Viton is a good idea.
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(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/1244696839.jpg)
You can see the brown Viton 0-ring sitting on the front T-30 bolt. Grease it with Vaseline so it will slip over the duct tape and allow it to go into the pump body easier. Un-screw one T-30 at a time and let the o-ring fall into the groove, put the bolt back before doing the next one. I lifted the o-ring with a hook while unscrewing the T-30 because I didn't want to chance the sharp edges of the thread cutting the o-ring. Once the o-ring is seated in the groove, tighten each T-30 a bit at a time so the head goes in straight and square.
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(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/Photo_061109_001.jpg)
I had to grind down the body of my 3/8 drive T-30 since it was interfering on the deliver valve threads. If your bit is smaller in diameter you may not have to grind it like I had to.
Hope these pics help someone who will be doing this job.
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Ive got the same setup - you can remove the pump without unmounting the compressor its just 4 bolts 3 pulley side and 1 on the back side, unbolt the pump pulley slap a gear puller on it and remove.
Its risky business working the high pressure pump head while on the car
How long does it take to pull the IP and put it back timed? I didn't have a gear puller plus I didn't want to mess up the timing so didn't consider pulling the IP. It took me about 3 to 4 hours changing the o-ring with IP in the car. Much of it was spent figuring what to do, what tool fits and being careful taking things apart so I don't screw something up. If I were to do the job again, I think I can do it in under 2 hours.
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That is correct. An keeping things clean is also very important! The way I kept pressure on the main plunger was by backing the four T-30 torx bolts out just enough to expose the o-ring, then remove only one at a time to slip the o-ring over each T-30. That means at any given time there's always 3 T-30 in place.
THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. YOU GOT VERY, VERY, VERY LUCKY THAT YOU DIDN'T DESTROY YOUR PUMP!!![/size]
There is a very small washer at the base of the main plunger that is all of 1/16" thick. If you do not maintain pressure ON THE PLUNGER (my method is to add a small spacer under the timing plug bolt and tightening that bolt down on the spacer and plunger as I loosen the four mounting bolt for the head) then loosening the distributor head far enough to remove the o-ring will definitely allow plenty of space for that little washer to fall out of position. If it falls out of position, your plunger will be torqued sideways and WILL break the first time you turn over your engine. The pieces of shrapnel accumulate very quickly from there on out. YOU ARE VERY, VERY LUCKY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN TO YOU!!!
I am hoping that I am emphasizing this all enough that anyone hoping to do the same makes sure to take the RIGHT PRECAUTIONS to ensure that their pump doesn't become TRASH.
For anyone considering doing the above mentioned procedure DO NOT DO IT THE WAY IT HAS BEEN OUTLINED BY 92EcoDiesel Jetta!!! YOUR PUMP WILL MOST LIKELY BE GARBAGE AFTERWARD IF YOU DO!!
[92EcoDiesel Jetta, I appreciate your input and am very glad that your procedure worked for you. I am not in any way attempting to belittle you or your contribution to this forum. I am only trying to save others some heartache. Everyone else I know of that has done it that way (I know of several) has ended up with a destroyed pump.]
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I guess I am lucky. I must say the head, which was backed out by not more than 3/8" at most, felt like it was always being pushed against by a spring and not just floating. I don't understand the spacer you speak of. If you put a spacer under the timing plug bolt, wouldn't that move the bolt further away from the washer and plunger? Am I reading it wrong? Seems like you need a longer bolt to maintain more pressure? Please clarify.
This is not my procedure and I found it online somewhere. It never mentioned about adding a spacer. I can dig it up and post a link to it later.
ps. libbybapa , no belittling felt. I was merely documenting what I did- good or bad. I was ready for the possible consequences of failure and did my best to work clean and slow and I lucked out.
Here's one of the procedure I used, even though it was not for my 92 model year: http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm
Here's another that I looked at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Diesel-Injection-Pump-Gasket-Kit-Rabbit-VITON-BIO_W0QQitemZ150348086849QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item230171be41&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
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The little washer is in a resess in the plunger base, that's the end that is against the camplate, so the camplate holds the little washer in.
If you let a gap get between the camplate and plunger the washer can easily fall out.
Anybody know what the washer does?
As for the spring pressure your talking about, that's most likely the throttle return springs and they have nothing to do with holding pressure on the plunger. Good job though.
I was a lucky one too, when I first got my rabbit I took the head either off or mostly off (I forgot exactly ::)) in car for no reason whatsoever. Ran fine after I got it together ;D.
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Rabbitman, that little washer adjusts the start and stopping points of the plunger's stroke.
Andrew
So a thicker one will start the injection sooner and a thinner one will delay the start?
Makes sense, it just seemed weird that mine was flush with the plunger base making me think it had no affect on anything, thanks for clearing that up. :D
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Andrew, thank you very much for the explanation. I understand the spacer now, which is an internal spacer rod, rather than a spacer washer as I first thought. My longer bolt idea was on the right track though? As a further development to your drill bit spacer, how about putting a spring behind it and then a shorter timing plug (8mmx1) bolt? It would then provide constant pressure against the little disc or washer from being dislodged. I saw a PDF file with pics on how to put a distributor head back together after all the parts have fallen out and I know the disc or washer you're talking about now.
I wonder why Dieselgeek left out such a crucial step in his procedure?
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Great job !! Are your other seals Viton ? The shaft seal and throttle come to mind, or are these not prone to leaking with WVO ? I like your photos...
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Great job !! Are your other seals Viton ? The shaft seal and throttle come to mind, or are these not prone to leaking with WVO ? I like your photos...
Not yet. When it starts to leak again, I will pull the pump and replace the seals with Viton if I can get them. I have a main shaft Viton shaft seal already, but need a source for the 2 advance piston seals, which are not regular o-ring shaped, but rather a dual lip design. Anyone know where I can source those in Viton? Andrew? Anyone?
The other small o-rings I can go to my local hydraulic shop and match them up with Viton.
Viton stands up to Bio Diesel much better than Buna Nitrile, which is what the regular Bosch re-seal kits are made of. I think for WVO, Buna Nitrile will be fine. I think old IP's leak just from age of the seals, shrinking and taking a compression set. The old distributor head o-ring that came out looked pretty bad. It was flat and not round anymore! No wonder it was leaking!
Photos are from my phone cam, pretty bad actually but since I have my phone with me always, bad photos are better no photos? I really enjoy your post putting a TD into the Caravan with all the photos. Keep up the good work!
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(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/Photo_061209_013.jpg)
That's good to know Andrew! Are you saying that if I get a Standard Bosch DGK-126 re-seal kit, that the assorment of green and black seals are bio diesel compatible?
In the pic above, the only seal that's not part of the DGK-126 is the one on lower right, which is a Viton main shaft seal I bought separately from a local fuel injection shop, it is Viton, brown with a Bosch p/n on it.
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The p/n of that Bosch main shaft seal is 1 460 283 312
As I recall it was about $12
Andrew, can you look the p/n up and get a description?
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The main shaft seal on the upper left, which came with the DGK-126 kit from Ebay, is not Bosch but Zexel with a p/n 9 461 614 046
It came in a separate sealed package taped to the outside of the Bosch kit. It's black with a stainless steel outer band. Have you seen or used that seal and is it bio diesel compatible? As far as pulling the old seal, do you have a special tool that you like to use? A pic or description would really help
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I took this video of a VE pump so that I have record of how it came apart. (It's not a VW IP given to me by a mechanic). I took it apart before I did the O-ring as described in this post. Question to Andrew (or anyone else who knows): Is the disc/washer that can possibly fall out of place when the distributor head is backed out with IP still in car (rather than on the bench with distributor head pointing up) in this video? It's the one where I lifted it off momentarily.
(http://=http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/EcoDiesel/Video_030809_001.flv)
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Hey everyone, it's been 10 years and 1 month since I did this job! Time really flies! I haven't logged onto this forum for a long time since my Ecodiesel has been running great all these years until a few days ago, the distributor head suddenly developed a leak, dripping a continuous stream of fuel. I guess 10 years is not too shabby, I am glad the pics are still here so I can refer to them. I have a new distributor head o-ring from a DGK-126 kit and will attempt to do this job tomorrow. I hope it will go as well as the last time. Wish me luck.
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Good news! the job was done successfully! Took about 3 hours with breaks in between.
The fuel distributor o-ring that came out was black in color and compressed totally flat, thus why it started to leak. It was not the Viton o-ring that I installed 10 years ago. Now I remember swapping the IP out because I had a shaft seal leak and I did not have a new shaft seal and needed to get the car on the road ASAP. The replacement IP came from a low mileage wrecked Ecodiesel that I had in my stash.
I am adding notes here for anyone who may need to do this job and in case I have to do this job again:
Clean the area with Brake clean/ tooth brush. Remove IP hard lines and fuel shut off solenoid.
1. The advance cable should be removed first before removing the advance cable/ IP lock plate otherwise it may be difficult to separate from the plate.
2. The advance able/ IP lock plate is held on by 2 short Hex bolts (near center of distributor head) and 2 long Torx bolts (on perimeter of distributor head). Make sure you use the correct driver or your will stripping them! Remove the 13 mm IP lock bolt /Cone nut first then remove 2 Torx + 2 Hex bolts to remove the plate.
3. Back out the remaining 2 long Torx bolts (equally, a little a a time) that's holding the distributor head in till the o-ring is visible and accessible. The springs will push the distributor head out as you back the 2 bolts out. Do not remove those 2 bolts because the head will fall out and springs will go flying and you'll have to take the IP to a fuel injection shop to put it back together, unless you are capable of diy.
4. Use a pick to pry up the o-ring, cut it with scissor to aid in removal. The o-ring will most likely be stuck in the groove. Don't yank on it and hope it will come out in one piece. If the o-ring breaks on the side between the IP and block, you have no room to grab onto it anymore and may have to pull the IP to get the bits of stuck o-ring off. Use a bent coat hanger to unseat the o-ring all the way around to get it off in one piece.
5. Spray the area with WD-40 to clean and also as a lube. Stretch the new o-ring over the distributor head over the groove. It will be sitting in the groove under the 2 removed Torx bolts but sitting on the 2 Torx bolts that's holding the head in. Put the 2 other 2 Torx bolts in before removing the 2 Torx that's preventing the o-ring from seating all around. Spray the o-ring with lot's of WD-40 before putting the 2 Torx you just pulled out back in. Tighten the 2 Torx (shallow heads) all the way to seat the head. Note: 2 of the 4 Torx bolts have shallower heads and they are not interchangeable! Take the 2 Torx bolts out so you can install now install the advance cable/ IP lock plate then put everything else back together.