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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: 33B on April 09, 2023, 03:47:57 pm
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Right,
So I've been preparing my car for a m-tdi swap by upgrading suspension, brakes and so on..
It's a Passat '87 with a 1.6td mounted longitudinally, front suspension is completely out of an Audi 80 B4 (which came with 1Z). I'm looking at these 3 options 1Z, AHU or AFN. What are the pros and cons of each engine? The reason I'm looking at these three and not newer is because of an easier swap. Same block more or less (or am I wrong), my thought process is that im gonna use the same mounts for the engine.
Would 1.6 manifolds fit, if yes would they be restricting airflow?
Does 1.6 vacuum pump fit?
Could my stock transmission and clutch work with the 1.9 for a while until i source a good Passat 5/audi a4 b5 transmission?
And also what are my IP options? I've heard of 300TD LR pumps, kind of rare here. Could a 2.1L Renault diesel IP work for this application? This engine was used in 2000s Jeep Cherokee.
Thanks
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What are the pros and cons of each engine?
The longblocks are basically the same. I believe the AHU/AFN pistons are a better design, but not enough of a difference to be concerned. I'd get whichever is available for a decent price.
The reason I'm looking at these three and not newer is because of an easier swap. Same block more or less (or am I wrong), my thought process is that im gonna use the same mounts for the engine.
1Z/AHU/AFN should bolt up in place of the 1.6TD. One thing to keep in mind is that the 1.9 blocks are ~13mm taller than the 1.6 blocks and the difference is at the head gasket surface. That difference can cause issues with the exhaust or intake fitting as both mount to the head and their mounting position would be changed by the block height difference.
Would 1.6 manifolds fit, if yes would they be restricting airflow?
The exhaust manifold will fit fine. The intake ports are a different shape between the 1.6 (oval) and 1.9 (D-shaped) engines. The 1.6 intakes will mount up to the 1.9, but the port mismatch will cause excessive turbulence and hurt flow/performance.
Does 1.6 vacuum pump fit?
The 1.6 and 1.9 pumps look similar but will NOT interchange! There are several differences including the size of the hole in the block and size of the drive gear.
Could my stock transmission and clutch work with the 1.9 for a while until i source a good Passat 5/audi a4 b5 transmission?
Yes, but treat it like it is made of glass or the torque of an mTDI will force the swap sooner than later.
Could a 2.1L Renault diesel IP work for this application?
I'm not familiar with that pump so can't really say. If you post/link pics I could probably say more accurately.
The following criteria are needed for a direct swap mTDI pump:
-from a direct injection engine that has a similar rpm range
-triangular mounting flange at sprocket end of the pump case
-clockwise rotation of sprocket/shaft
-accelerator shaft/lever on the correct side of the pump and with the correct rotation direction
Each of those criteria can usually be determined by looking at the exterior of the pump if you know what to look for.
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Considering that Renault pump, get it's number; for example the 1.6D has:
0460 494 131 or
0460 494 052
etc etc
the 6th number (9) is the plunger size. For mTDI you need at least 10 mm, the number would look like;
0460 404 052 for 10mm plunger
0460 414 052 for 11mm plunger
0460 424 052 for 12mm plunger
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What are the pros and cons of each engine?
The longblocks are basically the same. I believe the AHU/AFN pistons are a better design, but not enough of a difference to be concerned. I'd get whichever is available for a decent price.
The reason I'm looking at these three and not newer is because of an easier swap. Same block more or less (or am I wrong), my thought process is that im gonna use the same mounts for the engine.
1Z/AHU/AFN should bolt up in place of the 1.6TD. One thing to keep in mind is that the 1.9 blocks are ~13mm taller than the 1.6 blocks and the difference is at the head gasket surface. That difference can cause issues with the exhaust or intake fitting as both mount to the head and their mounting position would be changed by the block height difference.
Would 1.6 manifolds fit, if yes would they be restricting airflow?
The exhaust manifold will fit fine. The intake ports are a different shape between the 1.6 (oval) and 1.9 (D-shaped) engines. The 1.6 intakes will mount up to the 1.9, but the port mismatch will cause excessive turbulence and hurt flow/performance.
Does 1.6 vacuum pump fit?
The 1.6 and 1.9 pumps look similar but will NOT interchange! There are several differences including the size of the hole in the block and size of the drive gear.
Could my stock transmission and clutch work with the 1.9 for a while until i source a good Passat 5/audi a4 b5 transmission?
Yes, but treat it like it is made of glass or the torque of an mTDI will force the swap sooner than later.
Could a 2.1L Renault diesel IP work for this application?
I'm not familiar with that pump so can't really say. If you post/link pics I could probably say more accurately.
The following criteria are needed for a direct swap mTDI pump:
-from a direct injection engine that has a similar rpm range
-triangular mounting flange at sprocket end of the pump case
-clockwise rotation of sprocket/shaft
-accelerator shaft/lever on the correct side of the pump and with the correct rotation direction
Each of those criteria can usually be determined by looking at the exterior of the pump if you know what to look for.
Thank you very much!!!
Considering that Renault pump, get it's number; for example the 1.6D has:
0460 494 131 or
0460 494 052
etc etc
the 6th number (9) is the plunger size. For mTDI you need at least 10 mm, the number would look like;
0460 404 052 for 10mm plunger
0460 414 052 for 11mm plunger
0460 424 052 for 12mm plunger
0 460 494 315
So it cant work for this application. Pictures here https://www.megaparts.eu/en/product/1457593590
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Since ive posted this, i've found a 1.9 afn for 200bucks complete w/o ac compressor (bracket still there) and I have also found the 300td LR IP which is also 200bucks. What will I need to make this IP work with this engine (sprockets, brackets etc.)?
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Guys I bought an Audi A4 B5 1.9tdi afn for parts. I'm gonna pull the engine and trans and sell the rest. Next up is purchasing the LR pump. I'm gonna post regular updates as i proceed.
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/07/26/02f8c1a6aeb3a9d2765f84a4d6eafe91.md.jpeg) (https://imgtr.ee/image/rgcQu)
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What is the US equivalent of the AFN block?
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1Z or AHU is the U.S. version of that engine. Upgraded a bit though. AHU and AFN got better pistons over the 1Z.
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Late update on mTDI build.
Finally managed to get some free time to pull the engine and trans from the audi (to be exact i pulled the car apart around the engine hehe), also LR 300 pump arrived today. I think I have everything to start building this thing.
Pictures include the LR pump, the engine and the guinea pig I'm gonna operate on.
https://imgtr.ee/image/lr.rgxob
https://imgtr.ee/image/p.rgZO2
https://imgtr.ee/image/mot.rg2Qh
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/07/26/487d9fa44669cf76baada7997757bcb4.md.jpeg) (https://imgtr.ee/image/rgxob)
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/07/26/63f77ebe0349d9feca263c0ed717436c.md.jpeg) (https://imgtr.ee/image/rg2Qh)
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/07/26/1c9d7f2d59909e182d26a22ae38becaf.md.jpeg) (https://imgtr.ee/image/rgZO2)
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Looks like the pump has a throttle position sensor and the stop solenoid isn't all covered in a plastic shield like one that I got.
I'd rather see a side view of your passat than a picture of it on it's side, ha.
That was a called a quantum over here right?
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Yes sir Quantum in the US. Hehe, I'll post next time with it not on it's side.
I have mounted the LR pump. Bracket was widened for IP to fit. AFN IP sprocket swapped on LR IP. LR IP three holes for mounting onto the bracket widened with a hand file to the dimensions of AFN IP holes so it can be timed. Also rear bracket swapped over and AFN delivery valves.
Tried starting it and it's trying but it's not timed right, maybe firing on one cylinder :-\
Need help with timing this IP. Specs etc..
Is the timing mark on the AFN sprocket still accurate?
For now i want it roughly timed so it can start. After that im gonna replace all the seals and belts. With a new timing belt im gonna precisely time it.
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/08/12/0c9b26d974ccd00ddb04f164da618521.jpeg)
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/08/12/b83ede7143e5e6f1523eebb428ef8523.jpeg)
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/08/12/3b926e6d9739d74584fcea7d54ad089d.jpeg)
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/08/12/6069cf81b9f9195aff09fdc9a98f7d9a.jpeg)
(https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/08/12/a4994c724bf404a16097adab571a10e6.jpeg)
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Okay so found the post about timing. Key should be pointing at the #1 delivery valve. Did i get that right? What about timing advance, read some posts saying it should be 1.25 others saying 1mm?
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It's alive. Bad quality video, family member was recording me without my knowledge. But hey first start video.
Before the recording started, it started and revved up on it's own. Most likely stuck internals of IP from sitting for too long. That's the reason i was not too keen on touching the throttle at first (ready to cover the intake with a block of wood).
Rattling/grinding noise is from the cover plate thats situated behind sprockets, intermediate shaft sprocket grinding on the plate, also valve cover rattling since it isn't bolted down.
https://youtu.be/XOFQvvjPwl0
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Nice to hear it suddenly start and run after all that cranking.
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Good to hear that rev and sing. Good job!!!
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Very nice!!
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Update.
Engine and transmission is in and running. Had to fabricate all the engine mounts. Also transmission mounts were a challenge. Still have to do engine bay wiring routing, fabricate left radiator fan shroud (Stock can't fit because of alternator), intercooler, a/c, speedometer...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xqquZaVh5GU
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It's been a slow progress building this thing, finding time between work and university.
Subframe was fitted from a Audi 80 B4, difference is that b4 subframe has an additional transmission mount and lacks engine mounts (engine mounts to the unibody on B4, B5...)
First i mounted the B5 transmission with the B4 transmission mounts, had to massage transmission tunnel with a sledge hammer. Then I combined B4 and b5 shift linkages to fit my B2. A lot of cutting and welding later I could shift the transmission.
Axle shafts from the b5 don't fit onto b2 because they are longer 2-3cm than stock, had to find B4 TDI axles, swapped outer cv joints.
Replaced the transmission oil and fitted a new B4 slave cylinder.
Then came the engine. Resealed everything, new oil pan, new glowplugs, water pump, timing belt and oil...
Installed the engine into the car, bolted it up to the transmission. Used 1.6 front mount to position it correctly. Then fabricated and welded subframe engine mount brackets. After that used B5 front engine mount that also serves as intercooling piping. A lot of cutting and welding later i had all mounts side and front.
Used B4 pedals that seemed to fit without a problem but of course they are a close fit but new mounts needed to be made. After that i drilled the firewall for the clutch slave cylinder. Hooked everything up and bleed the clutch. It works.
A little while ago i found a 5 cylinder Passat in a scrapyard that someone swapped a 1.6 into but left everything else in it. Took all the ac parts from the inside as well as the brake fluid bottle with the drain for the clutch.
Mounted the Ac evaporator (firewall cutting and welding, had to braze b5 ac line connectors since someone broke off the original ones), mounted the fresh air fan plastic housing with the vacuum actuator for the ac, also the 3 speed fan switch was replaced with the 4 speed one.
Did inside electrics for the fog lights and all other accessories i installed so that they all run through CE1.
Found a b3 speedo hoping it would work with b5 transmission speed sender, and it works. Now I need to install that in to the original mk2 speedo housing. Why the b3/b4 speedo, because they are individual, you can take the speedo out without tach for example and it would work, as in mk2.
Regarding the engine, IP was timed to 1.45mm, 1.6 td intake ported to fit 1.9tdi, turbo actuator welded a bong to it so i could use a boost line on the lower half with a manual boost controller. Did the engine wiring. Hoped i could use 1.6 head water outlet but bad luck, different angle for mounting. So i had to use 1.9tdi water bracket. It has a 4 wire temp sender. Hooked it up so it could work with my 1 wire gauge. I have cut off the clutch fan from the water pump bracket, so different belt routing and length had to be used 1650 5pk. Brand new alternator 140a, w terminal soldered and hooked up.
IP was fine but yesterday it started to rev hang, i dont know why. Maybe stuck delivery valve or something. You start it up and its okay, as soon as you rev it it hangs at 2k rpm and stays there until you overload the engine and then it would go back to normal idle. Probably rust from sitting for too long idk. After unscrewing the fuel screw it doesnt hang permanently on 2k but slow to come down. Was fine a few days ago. Have to solve that.
Yeah also welded a part of the 1.6 IP fuel lever so i could retain the "no smoke at startup" lever thingy on the lr pump. Also remade the 1.6 throttle cable bracket to fit lr pump.
Still have to do intercooler, ac lines and condenser and speedo. Radiator fans are still a problem but i'm thinking I could make mk4 golf fans fit so they push air, with that setup i can install the ac condenser. Intercooler is going to go on the outside (bumper cutting..).
Probably forgetting to mention a lot of things, but give me a brake its been a couple of months now since i've started this build.
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fatmobile i've read your post about having almost the same issue with the rev hang. Did you ever discover what the problem was?
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No, I ended up getting another pump.
I took the extra lever off the side, I think it was for a manual shut down, maybe that had something to do with it.
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I recently did some work on my pump and ended up tightening the bracket that keeps the Accelerator cable in place too tightly and had that lever bound up. Once I stuck in a spacer on top of the pump and between the bracket the manual shut-off lever no longer sticks.
I too had hanging revs.
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I'm waiting for the reseal kit to arrive, and I am going to disassemble the IP clean and reseal.
In the meantime i've given up on the audi 80 speedo and mk2 cluster. I made it work but for it to fit nicely i need to cut the blue film and resolder with wires. Tried it on a scrap film, no luck. Film breaks as soon as you touch it after solder. Don't have the equipment for that.
So I've bought myself a Golf mk3 TDI cluster. Hooked the wires up today. Everything works except tach (it works but redline at idle). Can't use the W terminal. My question is could i hook up crankshaft sensor to supply me with the tach signal. I've left the original AFN crankshaft p. sensor in place just in case.
My way of thinking is sensor has 3 wires (+5v, ground and signal). So if that is correct could i use that signal from the sensor and directly connect it to the cluster tach signal wire? If no, what would be my solution to this besides getting a TD mk3 cluster?
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I have heard that some of that paint on solder is the way to fix the film we have in our VWs.
Have no help about getting the tach to work. Not sure if the part you have will give you the proper signal or not.
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I'm not much help with the MK3 tach either.
I'm not sure what it runs off of.
The computer probably tells it what to do. I don't think it's driven by a W wire off the alternator like the MK2.
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ECU gets a signal from the IP or CPS im not sure and then ECU sends signal to the cluster.
Anyway i bought a mk3 TD cluster it works (found a guy that has a "junkyard" in the middle of the forest. 15min of walking through some mud i got the cluster for 15 bucks with loads of different interior plastics)
Currently installing a bmw e39 3.0d intercooler. Will update as i go.
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IC installed, cluster installed another IP bought and installed. Finally its a daily driver. Still have a loads of small things to do. A video will be posted soon.
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Isn't just the greatest feeling to have it on the road at last? I tuned on mine this weekend and it seems to be running best it ever has.
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Great to hear it's on the road.
Not sure the small stuff ever ends.
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The Small stuff never ends!
I second that.
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Yes I'm happy it's on the road and working not at 100% but close. Small stuff never ends, there's always something that comes up or you think of something new/different to do.
Here's a small update. Haven't been doing anything special, work and other things got me occupied. But have loads more planned.
The VNT controller i spoke of is https://gfb.com.au/products/boost-controllers/manual-boost-controllers/v2-vnt-boost-controller-reliable-and-effective-boost-control-for-vnt-vgt-turbos/.
Hopefully it's gonna work. If it does Garrett 2256v is going on this engine. If not, some wastegate turbo is gonna be installed.
I have tried to control the VNT with boost only. Drilled the other half of the actuator, welded a boost nipple on. This way you only stall the engine from the massive amount of exhaust backpressure from vanes closing instantly.
Regarding the non start when hot issue i have, first time it happened i wasn't sure what it was. I have not at that point driven the car for long period of time, only short drives. After that i went on a long drive and when it's at operating temperature it would not start, it would smoke but not start. First thought was the head and rotor were worn, but it smoked like crazy when trying to start it, so its getting fuel. Next thought i had maybe the timing was too advanced (timed at 1.45mm). Retarded the timing to 1.40mm and it seemed to solve the issue. Then a month later I had my first road trip with it. And after going up a long hill with egts around 600c i shut it off and tried starting it, same thing cranks puffs smoke but doesnt start.(never got it that hot before). Funny thing is it starts at -10C without waiting for glowplugs.
I still haven't been able to point my finger at what the issue is. Is timing still too advanced, is the ip worn (think not its popping injectors), low compression, starter too slow when hot??
Haven't touched anything as I'm saving money to do a whole engine rebuild and an IP rebuild.
https://youtu.be/jPB643YOzPY
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It's pretty common for the 1.6 VW diesels to not start when hot.
It seems to always point back to a weak starter.
Seems the engine gets tighter when hot, harder to turn.
A new starter has always fixed it for me.
Another work around is to have the glowplugs come on even when hot.
With a 1.6D I just need to disconnect the glow plug relay temp sender.
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I don't know much about that VNT controller.
Mine and others take throttle position into account.
I think it's an important input.
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Thanks for another input fatmobile, maybe you mistyped but it’s an 1.9TDI afn. Will refurbish the starter also just in case
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I don't have much experience with that engine.
I could only relay what I'd do if it was a 1.6D.