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Model Specific Questions and Info => MK2 Golf/Jetta and Audi 5k => Topic started by: curt5446 on February 20, 2016, 10:08:48 am
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Hi all,
I just purchased an 86 Jetta turbo diesel from my neighbor for $800. He rebuilt the engine top to bottom, new injection pump, turbo, clutch, everything. The car has been idled and only driven down the street and back.
The car starts hard and pours white smoke out of the exhaust and is clacking (injector clack) rather badly. The engine smooths out slightly when I pull the advance cable but never runs well. The smoke reeks of unburnt diesel.
In my experience with old OM617 Benz diesels this is either an injection pump timing issue or the injectors themselves. He replaced the injector nozzles however, did not have them pop tested or balanced.
Assuming he timed the pump correctly, I should be looking at injectors correct?
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Curt
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Sounds like the timing is probably way retarded or maybe even 180° out. I'd start by advancing it some (move the pump towards the head) and see how it reacts. Really though you should just treat it like it needs a timing belt job and start fresh - who knows what quality stuff is in there whether the tensioner was actually replaced, etc. Timing belt kits are cheap, head rebuilds are expensive!
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id be-wary of advancing pump, the 1 thing, the 'clacking' seems to indicate an advanced timing, already, the smooth out 'when' you pull cold start advance, doesnt mean timing isnt currently over-advanced. the injectors not being pop tested is 'a possible' problem, but your getting too much symptoms of what sounds like it may be an advanced pump. i tho have good exp in timing a motor. you need some timing tools. for a veedub 1.6; a socket +1/2 ratchet, cam lock+feelers, that will handle cam timing, check that 1st, then you need the dial gauge and adaptor, and get pump measurement @TDC. i dont have a lot of exp in a running motor,adjusting pump timing, but right now id say you need to be careful of an over-advanced timing right now, 1 thing some people have pointed out on a 'rough' timing setting, is with motor running adjust pump, try retarding where you are at now and try to find a good smooth running spot/curve, you ll have to loosen injector lines prob a couple of times doing this. if you know how to do it; but its more of an idea, or suggestion, if your not confident in your Diesel mechanic skills, i mean dont burn it up or lose something, cause your eager to jump in to this and if something goes wrong it can become a project. i mean your messing with the timing right now,
if you do a running timing 'try' id still suggest timing cam and pump with right tools before too long; in this case you dont have to loosen anything (at first) the 1st thing you want to verify cam and tdc, and then get a measurement on inj pump, and go from there.
not to say to do adjusting (of timing) you ll need to pull a few more tools out of your tool box, or otherwise be prepaired. as far as van suggestion of pump being 180d out, most pumps that are 180d out have two holes that can take inj pump timing lock. quik way to find out, find crank TDC, and with cam @TDC(also) slip pump lock in, that is the 'general' inj pump TDC, then after a few steps, you get to adjusting inj pump with a dial.
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I would be inclined to advance the pump myself but don't we hear and see about the same symptoms from both a retarded and an advanced pump? So knowing that these engines do OK in a retarded state I would follow Air-Cooled advice.
One thing I didn't see so much of was reference marks. If you don't have the necessary tools before you just go loosening bolts and injection lines on the back of the pump clean the top of the IP and the bracket that it bolts up to. Put a nice deep scribe line on it. When we are talking about changing the timing in a significant manner we are talking a movement of milimeters on the IP. Really, this is not the gas distributor thing. Very small shifts in that IP from the rear or towards the engine itself makes a big deal of difference.
To check the One Hole- Two Hole pulley alignment to determine if the pump is 180 degrees out of time I would take my IP pulley tool, the 3/4 inch carriage bolt and line it up in the hole. Then look at the keyway in the Pulley under the nut and see if it was towards the 10 o'clock position or at the 4 o'clock. 10 is where it should be. That will tell you if you need to change a little or a lot of the setup.
Just thinking what a guy with some knowledge but lacking VW timing tools can do to try and fix this one.
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1thing i was considering was checking adjustment of pump as the guy you bought it from left it. you, (possibly with results), can look at base "front" of inj pump as installed; look at the base, the sliding"mechanism" where the 1 lock bolt both allows the adjustment and the bolt to lock the pump, if that slider looks farther to the one side than near the middle of the slider, i was thinking;.
but at the same time i was also thinking;;cause a new guy on a timing belt job, i--thru the years have lost at least 2 motors to timing belt failure, 1 time as i had just come out of hi-school, and beat howmany endless miles on an old '85, at that time an '85 or '85 wasnt that old/long ago, well getting a timing belt can at the least cost you in $/work&time, a head+all the parts, and maybe the whole motor, or other internal parts, i junked that car and another good 1; an old '84 mk1, d,na,hydro lifters,w/ac, 'e'5speed. yawn, was so long ago, and had how many 100ks miles, saw my sister thru college and longer. then i got it.
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Evidently I forgot to subscribe to this thread as I just realized there were a bunch of replies on it. Sorry for that.
To update, since my first post, I purchased an engine timing kit. Cam lock, IP lock, dial indicator with adaptor etc.
I checked cam, crank and injection pump timing. All of the timing belt bits were timed correctly. I reset the IP timing to 1mm as recommended in the Bentley. Still pouring white smoke. Installed Bosch rebuilt injectors (rebuilt by a Bosch certified shop) and still white smoke.
When I advance the pump now, it runs well and the cackle is gone but, I'm still not comfortable driving the car with the pump like that so, I found a known good used IP from a gentleman on here and will install that and see where we are.
I did just run out with my IP tool and verify my key is at the 10 o'clock position when the lock is in place so all is good there.
After researching the parts used for the rebuild, I found that the head and IP were purchased from Prothe. I contacted him and asked that he warrant the pump but, because my neighbor purchased the pump more than 2 years ago, he refused but, I have started dialogue with him about and will try to at least get an exchange.
So, I'm pointing fingers at the pump now.
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prothe pump would seem the most likely cause of your problems, probably be better if you decided to find a pump that works from somewhere else,, i bought a used pump form here,(forum), it needs some work, havent installed it yet, after some work in the spring i should install it; the old pump that came out had more than 800k on it, main seal decided it had enough and gave out, spilling some diesel on belt, and letting a lot of air in,,made it home, with all the mileage ive never been left stranded by a mk1 or mk2. just end up having to fix a few things a year,
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https://youtu.be/GPGkQ3mg-5Q
Here she is running after adjusting the pump while running. Sounds good to me but I'm used to Benz 5 cylinder diesels.
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A Prothe pump could definitely be the cause of your problems! Who knows what bits are actually in it. I suspect the dynamic advance isn't working properly.
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I had a prothe pump back in 05 or 06, before the forums warned of his junk. He didn't even put the washers in the advance section where the spring is. It had probably 1/8 to 1/4 inch of slop before the advance engaged in either direction and impossible to time.
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Well, got a pump from a reputable source (Parts Place), it was rebuilt by a Bosch certified center near my house and drop shipped to me.
I installed it, got it running and, pretty much the same thing. Will not idle unless the cold start lever is pulled out, and still bellows white smoke. Moving the injection pump (retard/advance) doesn't help much. Runs a little better towards advance and stumbles like hell when retarded. It revs ok....still white smoke.
I doublechecked that the belt is in the correct position according to the Bentley manual.
Anything I can check/adjust? I'm ready to throw in the towel on this thing
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Timing plate in end of cam, both lobes of #1 are up.
Locking pin in pump.
Crank set to TDC.
Only thing I can think of is the flywheel is in the wrong position but, it wouldn't run at all if that were the case would it?
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Well you ruled out the poor quality, suspect quality IP out of the equation. But did we run it off a container in the engine area compared to running from the tank? Can't remember and thread is getting long. Did you bottle feed it?
If you have done all that and are sure you are not pulling air into the system then perhaps there is a reference problem.
Only thing I would try to determine at this point is the reference of the TDC to actual TDC of the pistons.
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I have not done an under hood container yet. Thought of that as I was trying to fall asleep last night. Think I'll try that and if it does the same thing, pull the number 1 injector and see if the piston is there.
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Well, you did say it was a recent rebuild and I would hope that anyone taking four pistons out would replace them all and not give back only 75%. Maybe a cost saving move?
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pull the number 1 injector and see if the piston is there.
LOLOL!! This probably should have read, pull the number 1 injector with the engine at TDC and see if the piston is actually at TDC.
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Went out there this morning and ran the car for a few minutes and, evidently I didn't run it long enough to get all the air out of the pump. She ran rough for a few minutes and then started to idle on her own. Gave the pump a little tap towards the head and she's purring like a kitten.
Thanks everyone for all the help!!
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So it was the crappy IP in the first and last place. Good to know we can fix things from a far. Don't let the kitten purr to long. Drive it like you stole it. Recent rebuilds need wear in. Up and down on revs and no long haul 55 mph for hours driving.
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The driving won't be a problem. I do field service on industrial robotics and rarely drive less than a thousand miles a week. It's the varying rpms that are going to be tough. That and keeping it below 3,000 rpms. Guess I'll have to drive my gasser until she's broken in. 300 miles so far......
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33 degrees here this morning. Went out , cycled the glow plugs once, pulled the cold start lever and less than a full engine revolution she fired up.
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The driving won't be a problem. I do field service on industrial robotics and rarely drive less than a thousand miles a week. It's the varying rpms that are going to be tough. That and keeping it below 3,000 rpms. Guess I'll have to drive my gasser until she's broken in. 300 miles so far......
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Don't keep it under 3,000 rpm unless you never plan on running it over that. Take it to redline, gently, or it will never seal up like it should
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Really?!?! I've always heard you can't run them over a certain percentage of redline or you can risk damaging something. I definitely plan on running it over 3k. Guess I'll start running the gears out a little further before I shift.
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don't side step the clutch, but use the entire rpm range. The same bearings and crank are in the 16v gasser that revs almost 2x what ours do due to the pump gov. Every engine I have ever seen broken in not using the full rpm range had oil consumption issues if you ever went over that break in rpm. All the racing atv's I used to have the engine guy would say "so many hours then you can use the full rpm" Later when he sponsored me he said "I only say that to people to buy time and if there is an issue I can say they ran it too hard, in reality if I did something wrong it will show up no matter what they do, just run it"
You want to use the entire rpm, but not like a drag race. Take it up a bit, hold a second, take it up more, hold a second, etc, for the first drive to get to redline, you don't want to knock the temper out of the rings. Then use the full rpm range for a while but don't do the .15 seconds for the pedal to be on the floor, take like 10 to 15 seconds or whatever, don't just run the piss out of it use the full rpm range but gently. Get some miles on it and run it like normal. I tend for overkill so I do 500-1,000 before I run it completely normal, after 100 it is probably fine.
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Thanks for the info!! There are so many different thoughts on engine break-in out there you never know which one to believe.
The first 200 miles on the engine were pretty much normal driving but under 3k. Normal take offs and stops no beating on it. It took about 30 trips around my neighborhood which has some good uphill grades so it was held at about 2.5k for 10-15 seconds at a time to build cylinder pressures to seat rings. The other 125 miles (it has 325 miles on the rebuild now) were typical suburban driving between 25 and 55 mph going up in the RPM range to about 4k.
I can feel a difference in the engine. Almost like it's getting more powerful as the rings seat. Oil was changed at 200 miles and, I will probably change it again when it hits 400-500 miles. still a little grey tint to the oil meaning things are wearing in.
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and she's purring like a kitten.
Thanks everyone for all the help!!
hopefully that will keep you going, :thumbs up:.
while theman advice is true, only take from that what you need, if you have a daily driver break her in easily, stay in the driving range you usually will be at, i add some speed/rpms to this, these are old girls, and were built for economy, they are fun , like the bugs, to put some work into and add power, understand theman and some of these guys are egoists and have some giddy-up in his machines, i take it he likes to get power from his whole rpm range. for break-in use different speeds, rpms, throttle, throttle use easily up to 2/3rds at first(max), 3/4 throttle for later, but like i said use different throttle settings. etc.