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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: wil892 on July 02, 2012, 05:14:27 am

Title: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 02, 2012, 05:14:27 am
Hi
I'm just coming up on 3000 miles on the engine I rebuilt, and the car is still using about 1 litre per 1000 miles. I do not notice any blue smoke from the car, and it starts flawlessley even without glow plugs.

The pistons are 0.5mm OS Kolbenshmidt with supplied rings. I think the rings are the newer chrome based material and am wondering if this is the reason for high oil use. I'm running a 10w40 oil but topping up with 15w40 at the moment.

The turbo is a fully rebuilt exchange unit from a very well know turbo company here in the UK so I am not blaming that at this moment.

I realise its very hard to pin point the cause for oil use, but just wondered if others have had this experience with rebuilds?

Thanks
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: libbydiesel on July 02, 2012, 10:26:48 am
Did you baby it during break-in?  Did you use synthetic oil? 
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 02, 2012, 10:55:07 am
No, the car has been driven normally, which has been mostly highway, but I made sure to load the engine often.
The engine was filled with no name 15w40 mineral for the first 50 miles, then changed to 15w40 Shell Rimula R3X for 1000 miles. It is now running 10w40 Fuchs Titan XTR semi synthetic, but topped up with Total 5000 15w40 mineral
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: theman53 on July 02, 2012, 11:57:39 am
Should be running dino 10w-30 diesel rated. Mostly highway is the worst way to break them in. Continual varrying RPMs with load is the best.
Do not use sythetic/blend until your oil burning stops...it may never stop now.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: ORCoaster on July 02, 2012, 03:40:03 pm
Probably never got broken in all the way and is just using oil because of that.  Pull what you have and go back to the basic oil you started with.  Save what you have if it is just been put in there. 
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on July 03, 2012, 01:25:09 am
pull the charge piping, is it oily?
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on July 03, 2012, 01:25:35 am
then go drive it like ya stole it for a few days..
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 03, 2012, 04:59:33 am
Ok, would using any sort of running in oil help or should I stick to the real cheapo 15w40 mineral and drive it really hard. Im a bit scared to run a 30 weight oil.

I have seen this stuff but again this looks pretty severe on the engine:
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69027-millers-oils-liquid-glaze-bust.aspx
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: theman53 on July 03, 2012, 06:40:05 am
Rotella T3 10w-30 it is diesel rated...New CAT engines are required to have it in there. My build had 10,000 miles on it to start before I switched to syth...as long as you didn't skimp on bearings, oil pump, ETC your engine will be just fine.

No experience with the liquid glaze bust.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: JessaBug on July 03, 2012, 10:22:16 am
We've been running Rotella 10w30 for our break-in. No real consumption as far as I'm aware...but we have a leak from our turbo drain line so its hard to know where the oil is going  :-\
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 03, 2012, 10:56:34 am
We don't seem to have 10w30 diesel oils readily available in the UK, they might be sold in farm machinery shops though. It is mostly 40 weight oils for everything before 2000 and 30 weight oils for newer cars on long distance intervals.

I can get cheap 10w40 or 15w40 mineral oils with basic acea specs of a2, b2. No synthetic content, would these be suitable.

I obviously wrongly assumed break-in would take 1000 miles or so.

Is there any benefit to driving the car fairly hard when it is cold? Up until now I have been easy on it until the temperature comes up, then I drive it fairly hard.

The engine really seems to have loosened up in the last 1000 miles, is very responsive and starts 100x better than it did before rebuild.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: libbydiesel on July 03, 2012, 11:15:14 am
You want to be gentle until it is up to normal operating temp.  Then you want to do bursts of power, not extended full pedal runs.  Like 3 seconds full pedal, 5 seconds no pedal, etc...  The rings need the pressure of load to push them against the cylinder walls and then they need time off to cool. 
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 04, 2012, 03:48:26 am
Ok, so yesterday I took the car out. I haven't been able to change the oil yet, but I stuck it in 3rd and was doing good bursts of WOT from 3000rpm, up to about 4200rpm, gently coming off the throttle and letting it over run back down to 3000rpm then going back up to WOT etc.

The engine is really keen to pull, even to 4500rpm.

Am I doing this correctly? When I get some crappy 15w40 I will continue this
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 05, 2012, 09:59:09 am
Does anyone think I should this Glaze Buster oil? It comes from a reputable lubricants company here in the UK, but SAE20 just seems to thin to run in one of these, even for a short period of time. Am I wrong? Or should I stick to the crappy 15w40 and thrash it

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/commercial/tds-commercial-vehicle.asp?prodsegmentID=743&sector=Fleet
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: theman53 on July 05, 2012, 10:11:35 am
Shell oil. Rotella T-3   10w-30  isn't available? It is in every store that sells oil in my area of the USA. If not I would run the 15w-40 that is diesel rated. I wouldn't thrash it either, just keep it loaded all the time like Libby diesel said.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on July 05, 2012, 10:26:44 am
No we don't get rotella here in the UK, it must be a US brand. I can only seem to get HD 10w30 oil in 25 litre containers at agricultural stores. Most older cars tend to be run on 15w40 or 10w40. 5w30 and 10w30 being used for Fords and newer cars with longlife intervals
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on January 29, 2013, 11:08:16 am
Just an update to this situation.

My engine now has 7500 miles on it, it runs so well and has noticeably loosened up in the last 2-3k miles. Just to test recently, it has been about 0 degrees celcius, I gave the car 2-3 seconds on glow plugs and it fired first rev and no missing, timing is set to 0.87mm.

To me this says compression is awesome, but I am still going through approx 1 litre every 1000 miles. Apart from a brief period on 10w40 I ran the engine with 15w40 mineral up to 5000 miles and it is now on 10w40 again. No change to consumption between the two oils.

This is exactly the same amount the car was using before engine and turbo rebuild.

Is this issue indicative of a broken oil control ring?
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: tyb525 on January 29, 2013, 11:20:08 am
In this part of Indiana I can only get 10w30 rotella in one store, and they only keep 2 gallon on hand in the back, you have to ask for it. Nowhere else seems to sell it.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: nwcali6 on January 29, 2013, 04:12:56 pm
Just an update to this situation.

My engine now has 7500 miles on it, it runs so well and has noticeably loosened up in the last 2-3k miles. Just to test recently, it has been about 0 degrees celcius, I gave the car 2-3 seconds on glow plugs and it fired first rev and no missing, timing is set to 0.87mm.

To me this says compression is awesome, but I am still going through approx 1 litre every 1000 miles. Apart from a brief period on 10w40 I ran the engine with 15w40 mineral up to 5000 miles and it is now on 10w40 again. No change to consumption between the two oils.

This is exactly the same amount the car was using before engine and turbo rebuild.

Is this issue indicative of a broken oil control ring?

  I have about 1,000 miles since my rebuild... I've not burned enough oil to give me reason to add any yet, and only in the last 100 miles of so has it started running/cranking like it should.  I guess my point is that maybe different engines/builds break in a little different...  I rarely drive in a cruise situation, most of the time I try to make sure it hits operation temps during a run... Good luck on your's breaking in, I can understand why it would un nerve you but I'd bet its just taking its time...
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on January 29, 2013, 04:46:38 pm
Any chance you are missing the cam splash deflector, or have a busted CDR valve?
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: theman53 on January 29, 2013, 04:58:15 pm
Is is burning from the top of the dipstick or is it burning it no matter what. Just about every 8v VW that I owned would burn from the top of the crosshatch on the dipstick down to about 1/2 way very quickly, then it would sit there until the next oil change. The only one I remember that burnt it continually was the red rabbit I had. It would burn it no matter what.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: scrounger on January 29, 2013, 05:20:13 pm
No Rotella? I thought Shell was big in Europe? Might have a different name but it is manufactured by Shell oil as a diesel truck oil.
We have very few diesel cars in the US.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: jboogie13 on January 29, 2013, 07:00:38 pm
Changing the type of oil you use every change cant be helping your cause, i would stick with one oil brand/weight until you find some diesel rated synthetic.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: pointynoggin on January 29, 2013, 07:00:59 pm
Took me 10000km to stop burning oil.  I drive hard too.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: tyb525 on January 29, 2013, 07:37:09 pm
Using a different brand of oil every oil change has nothing to do with it, as long as they are diesel rated.
Title: Re: Using oil with 7000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on January 30, 2013, 09:32:27 am
Basically most oils sold in Europe are diesel rated, but it is a struggle to find 10w30 though .

The cam baffle is present, I haven't checked the operation of the on way valve on top of the cam cover, however it was changed before the engine was rebuilt just to see if that was the problem.

Usually I top it up when it gets to half way on the dipstick hash marks, though I have let it go further before.

It really annoys me having to top up the oil after long journeys, I rebuilt the thing so I wouldn't have to anymore haha! I am wondering if it is going to take longer to bed in, though I have to say from the first start it has never had a problem firing. Compression has always seemed brilliant, just the engine has felt a little looser in the last couple of thousand miles, especially when the engine is cold.
I am so very tempted by M-TDI at the moment due to this problem, but the 1.6 runs so well the oil burning is the only reason to.

I am assuming compression rings are good, however how would I go about testing the oil control rings? check the glow plugs for deposits?
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: tyb525 on January 30, 2013, 10:24:46 am
No oil leaks? I rebuilt my engine ~4500 miles ago, and it uses just a little bit of oil, like someone already said it goes down to 1/2 on the hashmarks pretty quick but then kinda hangs out there. I do have a slight leak at the valve cover gasket, but I haven't fooled with it yet. I have a cam baffle too.

I first ran 15w40 rotella the first few oil changes (100, 500, 1000) and then I discovered 10w30 was available so now I run that in this colder weather. Mine also starts right up.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: RabbitJockey on January 30, 2013, 12:50:13 pm
although this does not solve any ring seating issue(which i think eventually will subside) one thing you can try to help reduce oil consumption would be to add a breather on the front of the block.  I had a rabbit that wouldn't burn oil except for when i would take it on the highway it was like it had a major blow out after a few miles and it blow all kinds of oil into the intake manifold this also would cause run aways.  It eventually ran away too bad so me and dad reringed it and put it back together but the problem was still there.  I added the oil deflector but the problem was still there.  The only solution i found was to find the breather port from 77-82 from the front of the block where the vacuum pump attached, and then i added a hose and routed it to the intake manifold hose and teed it in.  the issue completely stopped and the engine no longer burned oil.  Vw even made a kit to do this on 1.5/1.6 engines, and all the later engines had this similar breather, aaz, tdi, aba and the like.  good luck!
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: tyb525 on January 30, 2013, 12:55:10 pm
Interesting that another breather stops runaway and oil consumption, I'd think a breather going from the crankcase to the intake would add even more oil into the intake?
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: scrounger on January 30, 2013, 01:37:08 pm
As far as breathers go. They can introduce dirt into the crank case. We used to just run them through a long down turned tube onto the ground. That was back in the day when it was socially acceptable to do it.

I still have an older single cylinder motorcycle that I have set up that way. Running a reed valve on the vent port was used to increase the performance by decreasing the pumping losses internal in the engine.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: tyb525 on January 30, 2013, 01:56:37 pm
I'd put a simple filter in the breather if dirt was an issue. I don't have any problem connecting the breather to intake right now, maybe when the rings get more worn I'll do something different. right now blowby is basically zero.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: Dakotakid on January 30, 2013, 02:38:10 pm
Ok, back to your original question:  many of my original KS (oem from factory when manufactured) equipped VW diesel engines used oil when they came into my life. Over the years, I have come to believe that phenomenon is a consequence of KS. But, there was no way to verify how these engines were cared for prior to my ownership. So, there may well be validity to your assessment of harder rings. Let me say this though, I got a hell of a LOT of miles out of those original rings and pistons (one car was 435,000 miles). THAT particular car hogged about one quart to 500 miles when I got it with 52,000 miles on the odometer. I never got to "shook" about it as popping the hood and pulling the dipstick just ain't near as much of an inconvenience as you make it to be. You have a trunk....right? There ain't room for a quart or two of oil in there?

Second:  how accurate was the bore job and how good a hone was on those cylinder walls when it left the machine shop? Of course, you will reply everything was great.....but really!

Third:  You continue to batter dino 15/40 oil and I find that rather strange. Today's oils are really something. As a matter of fact, I've ran VW diesels literally over 1.5 million miles (from 1979) and there was only one winter I opted to run a synthetic. I don't think I have ever run one of these engines under 350,000 miles.

Fourth:  Block prep plays a major role in all of this as well. How accurate was the bore and how proper was the hone job. I’m sure you will say it was great…as does everyone.

Fifth:  You mention NOTHING of the cylinder head work….or was it even dealt with? New valves? New valve guides? Meticulously placed valve stem seals and then a careful installation of the valves through these seals (using a little plastic condom guard and some assembly lube?)?

Right now, I would recommend you go back to some of that “inferior” dino oil, vent the block, and run it. Have the discipline to pop the hood and carry a couple of quarts in the trunk. See if things improve. Next, I would start with the small stuff and reapply a new set of valve stem seals and then see what happens.
I personally do not think you have a broken or broken rings as the consumption would be much greater.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: RabbitJockey on January 30, 2013, 02:39:03 pm
my breather was routed up to the breather hose that goes from the valve cover to the intake manifold, so no new dirt could be introduced.  and like i said all the later engines are setup the same way, u could even use the parts off an aaz for a nice oem look.

i think the reason it helps is because the crank case does not breath properly through the oil drain holes and builds up too much pressure, in my case it build up alot until it pushed a bunch of oil out.  at idle that engine had very little blowby.  all later vw engines also added a bunch of extra oil drains so i think the idea is well rooted.  from the 11mm engines to the 12mm engines they made the drain bigger, then when they went to hydro lifters they added an extra drain, and some where around 99-00 they added a bunch of extra oil drains on the back side of the engine block.  with extra breathers and drain holes it also means that each breather and drain will have less air velocity so more time for the oil to fall out of suspension.  sure this engine shouldn't be burning oil regardless, but this is definitely one way to help it stop.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on January 30, 2013, 06:12:07 pm
Thanks for the info on the breather, I have actually been looking at getting an AAZ or TDI setup, so I will keep an eye out for one. No oil leaks as far as I can tell. My car has the plastic engine tray which is dry.

Dakotakid that is reassuring to know there are others like mine! Its not too much of an inconvienience to top the thing up, I check it most journeys tbh , I was just hoping for an engine which didn't use oil from a rather expensive rebuild, I can dream though!

Also I agree that 15w40 should be absolutely fine in these cars, its what they were designed for, I think its a mental thing telling me synthetic MUST be better for my engine than the dino 15w40, but it reality I I'm not sure it is really necessary in the UK weather.

The engine was bored 0.5mm oversize for the new KS pistons, I made sure to check which clearance they used, it was 0.001" or 0.03mm, which I remember thinking was correct, they also requested the new pistons before they would bore the block. The bores were "plateau honed" according to the machinist, as seen in the picture in this post http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=30282.0
However I did not personally measure them after, when I assembled the block.

The cylinder head was a Genuine Turbo diesel cast with no cracks, fully stripped, brand new Federal Mogul prechambers, new bronze valve guides, 4 new genuine exhaust valves, reused inlets, new followers. New Elring valve stem seals were used. However again, I did not see the head being built, so I obviously cannot say the seals were installed correctly.

I'm going to source a breather kit and will get around to swapping in the 15w40
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: Dakotakid on January 30, 2013, 09:25:50 pm
Yah, I actually put 5/30 gasoline oil in rebuilds for the first 500 miles or so. Seems like the rings (even Right Way Industrials) seal up pretty fast. I am sure many people will poop on my forehead for THAT! But...whatever. Goetz rings seem to be super well-mannered.

Recently on the Vortex forum, one guy had oil consumption like this and I suggested he inspect the valve stem seals which his mechanic had installed. It turned out that at least one of them was "floating" on the valve stem above the guide. So...stuff happens.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: theman53 on January 30, 2013, 10:55:47 pm
What trev is suggesting isn't an external breather. The only dirt that would get in is from the engine oil. I ran my 1.6 exactly like that from day 1. You just T the vent from the intake and puck on the valve cover to the block. A piece of 1/8" steel with a 3/8NPT thread and a brass barb works very well. Drill the 2 holes to go in where the gasser mech fuel pump went and bolt on.
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: 8v-of-fury on January 30, 2013, 11:59:37 pm
I personally run synthetic, but for no reason other than I get it cheaper than most pay for dino oil ;)

$2 a qt for Volkswagen synthetic! yeeyaaaaah
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: wil892 on March 24, 2019, 02:05:32 pm
Hi,

I thought I would revive this thread as I continued driving my new engine, despite the oil consumption.

However, the car is getting a full restoration so decided to pull the engine and inspect after 70k on the rebuild.

I found some quite deep scores on number 4 cylinder, which, on removal of the piston seem to have been caused by some debris damaging the piston slightly.

I was expecting to see some nasty scuffing but actually the pistons generally look very good, the bearings were also basically new.

My question now is, could this damage be the source of my oil burning? Does it look bad enough?

I'm not really sure what route to go down now, but seem to be swaying towards boring out a spare block I have and using my OS pistons from this block.

I didnt really want to pull the pistons, but as soon as I saw the scores and could catch them with my fingernail I didnt really have a choice.

Does anyone else have any suggestions on a way forward?

As seen when took the head off
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PdueexcFJddf2Bk4A
Scored side of piston
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Wofko1zztkvHaE968
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ePfhBJPf9oD65s7z8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8m1EUycjdBLn82Q26
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bnT4zmdqWtaeUaNu7
Otherside of piston
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KYKSSNR3R3ZHt7SeA
Title: Re: Using oil with 3000 miles on rebuild
Post by: libbydiesel on March 24, 2019, 07:06:22 pm
The deep scores in the cylinder wall could be the cause.  The pistons look totally usable, though.