VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => General => Topic started by: myke_w on May 17, 2008, 04:05:40 pm
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I'm sure this will piss someone off but it's time somebody says it. Flame me if you want. And if another mod wants to delete my post, that's fine too.. I completely understand. I am also writing this on behalf a few others that have spoken to me about the subject I won't say their names, they can chime in if they feel like it.
So.
I'm sick and tired of people being misinformed about the stuff prothe is selling. I'm tired of the ambiguity (lack of brand). Newbie engine builders are making the assumption that your parts as equally high quality as the big brands...
Prothe, are you saying your parts are of the same high quality as the real name brands we all know (Mahle, Kolbenschmidt, Elring, Reinz, etc)?
I'm ready to see full disclosure of brand and origin on your many parts sites.. I sell and buy known good brands for a real reason, because the companies invest the money in buying high quality components to make them. They have a reputation to protect. The product has a track record.
The fact that prothe's retail prices are lower than my cost is just damn disturbing. What is being left out?
Are Malaysian children in factories making these things for pennies a day?
So, How can your parts be so cheap? Are you just that good of a negotiator? Do you have no overhead? I don't think so.. Something doesn't add up here.
I'm a good negotiator and have NO overhead, that takes two variables away.. what's left? Where is the savings occurring?
Just one example:
This turbo on prothe's site ---299 bucks... new....
http://www.volkswaparts.com/K03Turbo.htm
Really? How the hell is that? My cost on a new borg kkk k03 is twice that and then some.
MY COST is 632.82 - That's from an importer.. Like, first stop off the boat from Europe as in they had an order in with the factory to get the stuff.
If I mark it up 20% (standard for the industry on most parts) I end up having to charge $758
Lets reverse the equation..
Suppose prothe is marking up 20% on his 299 dollar turbo
That means he's only paying 240 bucks for it..
How could there be nearly a 400 dollar difference in cost on the same part?
Because it's not the same part... that's why..
Now I'm sure folks are going to say "myke_w is tooting his own horn" about parts quality. Trust me, I don't make a living selling parts.. I have a day job as a systems admin and I run a vw audi shop after hours.. I make a good living and the parts this is more for fun.
I like selling parts to people here because I enjoy the process, I like talking to them on the phone, helping them do they job right etc.. I know a ***load about the topic and love to help people build their dreams.
I don't earn much from it AND I contribute a percentage of sales made to people here back to the GTD forum.. So it's my way of contributing to the future of the forum.
I'm not going to cry if someone doesn't buy parts from me. I would just encourage scrutiny from any parts source.
Anyway.. I'm interested in hearing from prothe on the topic.
Enlighten us please..
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Kudos Myke... and I hope others chime in.
If I get the time and want to dig in the advanced search function, I'll find some information that reflects the quality of products that he has sold. I can think of a few turbo examples right off the top of my head, as well as nozzles, and pistons too don't to things as simple as junk seals, crap camplates, hydraulic heads, etc.
I feel it is insulting to this forum, the DIY'er and the newbies that are coming into this particular end of the VW hobby spectrum to be mislead by extremely low prices. Its good stuff psych wise...really reels you in, but that just does not add up. As an original founder of the GTD forum... I find it hard to read anything that he puts out.
Mods, I hope that you find Myke's comments reflective, constructive and relevent to the integrity of this forum. I think it is more than warranted and I myself have contacted Prothe several times regarding his product quality, origins, etc. The best advice that I can give to anyone in the end because of his lack of being up front and providing such info is that when something sounds "too good to be true" it probably is and you honestly "get what you pay for". I hate to have to dig deep into my pockets for quality stuff, but part of that is also the vendor and supplier as well that I would question in the end before I even take part in the sale. That comes through experience.
Again...kudos myke
Joe
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I'm glad someone had the courage to raise this issue.
I'd like to hear from some of the people who've bought
products from this vendor.
The $189 turbo diesel pistons seem like a good deal,
but not if they're of inferior quality.
On the other hand, if some of the stuff is made in China,
that fact alone doesn't necessarily render it poor quality.
After all, Bosch injector nozzles appear to be all made
in India, nowadays.
All the consequences of "globalization", I suppose.
Thanks for raising the issue, though.
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anyone expecting to pay those prices and get OEM quality parts is delusional. you get what you pay for. i don't think Prothe is denying that fact...
what about the poor man or the guy scraping up pennies because he's in university/college, but wants to stand out and own a VW? at least he can buy cheap replacement parts to get him by...
OEM stuff stands up to more than double, even triple in some cases the HP/torque. very good for reliability, but a little bit overkill in some cases, where one just wants to squeeze that little bit extra life out of their engines.
i think we all need to just put a nail in this casket and let it be.
you guys are probably going to put a sour taste into Prothe's mouth so much that he is too disgusted to return to this site. his posts/comments are never negative, and he's never insinuated that his parts are of oem quality. just that he was trying to make cheap parts available to those who are willing to buy it.
i would look at the fact that there are still mk2's being driven around in China. who the hell is making all of their parts :wink: :lol: you better believe that they're doing that in house, and doing it wayyyy cheaper. who said communism is a bad thing??? :P
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Its unfair to beat up on Prothe. We live in a world full of cheap Chinese junk and we are all guilty.
If you don't like what he sells then boycott Walmart, buy"made in USA", protest the IMF/World Bank and wise up
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I think what is more in question here is his not coming out and stating where his stuff comes from and backing it up. I have never seen that. All inquires about his pistons, nozzles, etc. in the past....NO reply.
Most vendors stand behind there stuff and will answer questions straightforward...Prothe...no. Never have had a response, and they have never been worded in an "ill" fashion that wouldn't reward a response as well. Until this point.
I think also that it is important that we question the quality of a product too. You do indeed get what you before *and I have never heard him say that*. I would hate for someone to think that it is even comparable.
I am not in favor of a forum like this to not have diversity but at the same time, I think every question for the most part deserves an answer and this isn't the first time. If there is nothing to hide, than why not answer the inquires and discussions such as this. Something just doesn't make sense.
Also, just give consideration to some of the "products" he claims that he is putting together to market to people and how ill thought out they are. Then, the turn around will be the feedback we give within these forums that will allow him to capitalize on it without having an understanding for it all himself. Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Hmm...I'd question that I think.
I've said it in the thread I'm sure you guys have seen much of in the last week, and I'll say it again. I'll glady sit by and make sure I don't allow someone who has questionable product, motives and customer service skills and watch his train wreck occur eventually. I'll also make sure I do not contribute to anything that he will possibly capitalize on (and in so doing, bring in crap product from people who also deserve more...just in the name of saving the "all mighty buck") and keep it to more of an indvidual basis.
Please...you mention "protesting", "boycotting", etc. and this is part of that. I do my part...but lets just say oh um....it is what it is and let a sleeping dog lie...
Then nothing changes...
I think I'll advocate and do my part, do it right and do it once and in so doing, pay a little more for piece of mind in the end.
Thanks
Joe
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If you don't want his stuff don't buy it. I will buy certain products from him and others I would never buy. Use your own judgment.
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So...basically, you spout a lot about nothing. How do I know how many pistons you've sold? Want to prove that? Provide references of positive feedback then...
Eh...a lot of talk. Not much go. You've never answered any of those questions for me regarding any of that...even when I was "civil" if you want to put it that way.
You are what you are....and very interesting how you always deal in big numbers. I've sold "hundreds of pistons", "thousands of fuel filters", "thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars" creating vendors. Uh...ah...
Woo-Woo... to each his own. I'll def. make it a point to do the best I can to black list Prothe and his talk and product to anyone that I honestly know.
I'll be waiting for that train...
Joe
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I haven't bought parts from either mike or prothe, so I would consider myself relatively unbiased. I work in QA, so understand the importance of quality and also the fact that there is generally a relationship between cost and quality. I just bought some parts for my VW online that cost me $9.00. I could have paid $36 at a local jobber or $24 at a local retailer for the exact same part. I have no knowledge of the supply chain for any of the three sources I looked at, don't care, and it's none of my business. I looked at price, what I was getting, and what I valued the part at. My car is a $1200 beater that I use for driving to work. If it breaks down, I have another car or two that I can use while I fix it. For me, price is more important than if I was buying parts for a car that was my family's only source of transportation. Having said that, there are some items that I won't scrimp on and buy based on price. Anything safety related I buy purely on my perception of the quality and the warranty offered. Over the years I have been wrong, but generally this has led to me being satisfied with what I bought. I wouldn't cheap out on engine rebuild parts for a car that I planned on keeping for the rest of my life or was racing, but I'm not going to spend thousands to rebuild an engine in a beater either.
I find it interesting that the biggest objection to prothe's prices comes not from dissatisfied customers but from others. I have also seen lot's of his postings as well as looking at his web site and eBay listings. I do not recall him ever representing his products as necessarily being OEM quality or better, but presume that it's not complete junk either as there are a number of people that have posted regarding being satisfied with what they have bought from him. If he was clearly misrepresenting what he was selling I could agree with him being called out, but I don't think he owes you an explanation on his pricing or suppliers if you're not a customer.
As far as feedback, his ebay rating is 98.6% positive on over 6600 transactions. Not perfect but not indicative of a scam artist either.
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I went over a side conversation about this with Joe earlier this afternoon.
I think that people need to do their research as to what they are buying before they spend their hard earned money on something. The line from Tommy boy rings true to me in this respect.
Tommy: Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of sh$t. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time.
Right. Doesn't matter if it's got a warranty or not, if a piston fails early (i.e. not within spec) and that car is the way you get to work your down for at minimum a week, it's not something I can risk, I'd wager to guess the majority on this forum as well.
To Joe's point, about newbie's buying stuff that is not OEM quality I defended you (Prothe) by saying people that are buying pistons aren't 'newbies' in the sense that they have no idea what they are getting into mechanical wise. (as any mechanic worth his salt and who has to stand behind his work is most likely not going to buy a piston which is not OEM)
Still, to mislead people who are trying to save a dollar here or there into thinking they are going to get a product that has minimal failure is misleading. An um, unproven track record leaves a bit to be desired on the 'newbie' engine builder (such as myself).
I won't touch on your 1.6 tdi idea, as it may or may not be possible. But, clearly you are interested in learning and or bouncing unconventional ideas.
On your vendor side, While you may feel you need to (and I suppose are entitled) to 'protect' your vendor base I think it would only be fair to those buying your product that you 1) at least make an indication that it is not OEM in terms of supplier. or 2) you should have someone on this forum who is in good standing do a variable comparison test between OEM and what you have.
For example, a stress test on an OEM Piston vrs one you sell. What is the point of failure, how badly did it fail, etc. That would be something that would help people make decisions that effect their wallet. I personally would rather spend a bit more up front and have something I know is going to last. Until the test results are in (And I'm not one who is knowledgeable on what the best way to do that would be) I am going to hold off on buying a sub-market priced product.
It goes to cover every product that I buy. (because I can at this point afford to) I'd rather pony up and buy from a reputable company who's products have a proven track record than one that has an unverifiable one (as of yet) Still, if you can verify point of failure on a cheaper alternative to OEM, people would be able to make the decision with a better sense of how far their money will get them.
Please don't take offense to what I've written as I do think that providing a cheaper alternative product is not in it's self a bad thing. (it's what drew me to vw's in the first place) But providing a product and not marking it as 'non-oem' is misleading at best and w/out a verifiable test behind it something I would be pretty pissed about if I bought a product thinking it was replacement for OEM and it failed prematurely.
Personally I am interested in seeing product comparison between oem and what you sell.
So, I guess pretend we're all from Missouri (the Show me state) and put up some pistons or a turbo (as they've been the parts in question) for verifiable destructive review and testing. I think it will get you farther than your current vague answers and side stepping.
-Todd
Edit: tommy boy had a swear which I didn't catch... (sorry)
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anyone expecting to pay those prices and get OEM quality parts is delusional. you get what you pay for. i don't think Prothe is denying that fact...
i don't think he needs to have any sort of warning on his site. anyone thinking that the parts on his site are oem should be admitted asap.
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I say a guy can sell what he wants, BUT, I would really like to see an obvious statement saying whether it's oem or not. A real comparison would be nice also.
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okay now he has the vw oil return and high pressure lines to the turbo... soon we will see a turbo conversion kit available :wink:
$20 for the turbo oil line vs how much for oem? about $150? damn... but it isn't OEM quality. it could possibly destroy my engine due to its inferior design and materials... better get the vaseline just to be safe! :twisted: :roll:
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Argh... :twisted:
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He has the oil return lines? Sweet. Those are tough to find.
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I will not give you a list of all of my vendors that I have spent thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars creating. Just like I don't ask you what the name and telephone number of your contact at KKK Turbos is.
I wouldn't expect you to give up your contact list.. I wouldn't give mine up either.. And like I said, I deal with importers not manufacturers..
And I didn't imply you were being mean.. EDITED I am just making an inquiry.
Don't get me wrong, I also appreciate that some parts on your site are entirely unavailable otherwise, like turbo gaskets and the like.. I have no idea who you get to make them but you definitely do some serious sleuthing. Some part is better than no part right?
Please don't take offense to what I've written as I do think that providing a cheaper alternative product is not in it's self a bad thing. (it's what drew me to vw's in the first place) But providing a product and not marking it as 'non-oem' is misleading at best and w/out a verifiable test behind it something I would be pretty pissed about if I bought a product thinking it was replacement for OEM and it failed prematurely.
Personally I am interested in seeing product comparison between oem and what you sell.
Ditto.
I was simply inquiring about brand.. country of origin..
I think it's a reasonable request.. especially for parts with bearings, fine tolerances, moving parts etc..
I doubt anybody will argue an oil return line's viability.. but a turbo is a high precision part..
:wink:
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This thread is going downhill and will be locked if it gets out of hand. Please keep it civil with no personal attacks or degrading comments.
I know many of you have strong feelings on this topic and want to discuss them, so please keep it a discussion.
Please read what you have written before hitting submit to make sure it is appropriate.
Thank you
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Tyler,
I appreciate your comments and what you are saying about the thread going downhill. However, on the other hand...I think it is important for the forums mods to review potential vendors and their viability on this site. I'm not going to into my history with the forum, Marc and I's original discussions regardin the creation of these forums (former hostboard), but...I can tell you that this thought and these ideas crossed mine mind before and I think are things that are viable comments and information that should be provided by "vendors" when selling their products here to maintain the integrity of what we have here.
There are other vendors who provide information, back their products, etc. and Prothe is one that I would question to the highest degree. If you would like to speak about this personally I am more than willing to...but nothing written here is "new news" or unfounded in anyway. I think it is also where the feedback forum will become very viable once people start using it on a more regular basis.
Anyways...
Joe
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Prothe isn't even a vendor here. he's not even using this site to promote his products. it's all just by word of mouth and good old ebay. let's discuss about his products and their potential reliability, but not of him personally.
it almost sounds like some people are losing their shirts (from lack of sales) the way they talk about Prothe and his cheap parts.
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Hmm. Not much too add but, cept I too am curious about the origins of the items. Not so much for sales purposes, just that I'm intrigued by some of his parts, but will go with a higher quality if it's a matter of Chinese parts.
I agree that that China does not automatically mean poor quality, but if the stuff is all just generic crap, why buy? I know that there are people out there looking for a quick cheap fix, then others looking for a lifetime of quality (an a$$ for every seat as they say). If something is NLA at most suppliers, then it's time to either suck it up and buy China, or look harder for that rare part. Otherwise, I'll stick to the known parts.
I've asked prothe about his injection pumps, and he's been a bit cagey about them. He can't tell me if it's been properly calibrated or what brand seals are used, or where any of the replacement parts are made. He just says 'rebuilt'. That alone has me going to my local Bosch rebuilder paying $500 instead of $299. He also defends AMC heads, which are KNOWN crap (ask any head builder familiar with them: poor quality alloy). Not sure if that's the brand he sells, but those facts alone make me look to other sources.
Bottom line: countries of origin/ manufacturers would be nice to know(suppliers not necessary). Let the newbies do what they want. You gotta figure that no-one buys a 25+ year old diesel car because they're loose with the money. I doubt that prothe's business will be affected by this post, esp. since he's not a vendor here. For the 'veterans' looking to do it once and do it right, basic info (brand. etc) would probably help his sales: it's a courtesy that most parts sellers (even Autozone) provide for thier customers to help them decide what level of quality they want. If that info is not forthcoming, I'll just assume it's the lowest quality possible (but I'm happy to be corrected).
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I agree that it would be good to know the manufacturer and their specific guarantees, etc. I think he is a great source for certain hard to find parts or when just trying to get a beater on the road. Other things, like injection pumps, really need to have a high quality history. Apparently he doesn't even clean the outside of the pumps :shock: . However I would definitely consider buying an AAZ pump from him for cheap and sending it over to Giles to work his magic.
I still think he is a great resource and will continue to buy (certain) parts from him.
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I've asked prothe about his injection pumps, and he's been a bit cagey about them. He can't tell me if it's been properly calibrated or what brand seals are used, or where any of the replacement parts are made. He just says 'rebuilt'. That alone has me going to my local Bosch rebuilder paying $500 instead of $299. He also defends AMC heads, which are KNOWN crap (ask any head builder familiar with them: poor quality alloy). Not sure if that's the brand he sells, but those facts alone make me look to other sources.
This is EXACTLY the type of "run around" that I am talking about. Responses = vague...and precision parts...I'm sorry thats not cool.
Seperate from what you said Quantum TD (so not directed at your post)
I have to clarify my position on China...
No one insinuated that China parts = bad parts...however, there are different qualities of materials that come from there and PLEASE do not say that they will be the same quality to a OEM part. If you want to...and have that much faith...SHOW ME the comparison... otherwise...they are what they are.
I've heard of several seal failures re: pump seals he sells.... hydraulic heads from pumps seizing up (chinese heads...not Bosch) and I won't go further as its already been discussed...but sheez. Cheap is cheap guys...you def. get what you pay for and if someone doesn't question what kind of product they are getting at that price and on top of that the answers that they receive are not answered or completely run around...
your just asking for it.
I can't even go into the work condition, ethics, etc. of the whole thing. Thats another story.
I'll stick with reputable vendors, that accurately display their product origins, stand behind their products and won't give people either no answer, misleading answers or any of the above.
Joe
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I am many years past being in the retail or wholesale parts biz, but these days I do spend a lot of time working on some very expensive stuff that is made in many countries - including China, Korea and Taiwan.
I don't know where Prothe is getting his stuff, but I can tell you with great certainty that there are good and bad parts supplies in mainland China, and that VW has been there longer than ANYONE else, and the aftermarket and OEM suppliers are all over the place. In the parts biz, it is NOT a matter of "you get what you pay for". It is more a matter of from MOST OEM sources, you will probably get a good part (for a hell of a lot more than it is really worth), or identified OEM suppliers (for a reasonable price), but you are definitely "on your own" without some kind of referrence as to who/what/where the manufacturer is.
Just a few on the "cheap Chinese" comments, though: If you have flown on a new airliner or small biz jet lately, you are flying a lot of "cheap Chinese" parts. On the ultra-expensive industrial stuff I work with, the very best manufacturers are Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese. WESTERN Euro is on par, but US is just plain crap - and much more expensive crap than similar quality from Eastern Europe and India. We are just starting to see the first big stuff from PRC now, and the jury is out on how good it will be. BUT, the big guys from Taiwan, Japan, etc. all have many component factories in really cheap labour places such as Vietnam, Thailnad, Malasia etc. where their QA/QC can be fairly good.
I agree, though, that this is a VERY important discussion. Those of us who have been in the trenches know the stories and the ropes, but for newbies, it is worth big bucks for them to learn from our experience because a load of parts for an engine can represent a significant part of their car budget.
There is nothing wrong with buying a no-brand, low buck part. Just don't go screaming back to the supplier and the rest of us if it turns out to be sub-standard. There is also no guarantee that if you buy the genuine OEM part directly from their dealer network (just thinking of decades of w/c VW door handles for instance) that you will get anything but pure garbage - in a fancy box. There are few "absolute truths" in parts.
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Duplicate post....see below...
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Pat,
I would need to respectfully disagree. Taking "the word" on a supplier being an OEM supplier doesn't really mean its a "good product". I can think of a few VW OEM suppliers (again...talking product grade) that I wouldn't use because of the difference in the quality of the part they produce compared to their German counterpart. I am an aircooled owner as well and there are a great number of lower level "OEM" parts out there that just don't cut it compared to the rest of the higher grade lot. For instance....I would be careful to question VW contracted Cofab (who is contracted out to KS pistons, aka Kolbenco).
You do in essence say that "you get what you pay for" with this comment...
"There is nothing wrong with buying a no-brand, low buck part. Just don't go screaming back to the supplier and the rest of us if it turns out to be sub-standard."
However, I am in agreement with that comment itself (but it really does say that in essence). Also, with this day and age, be it newbie or veteran...good parts I just plain expensive and I think budgets are on anyones mind. If you are of the do-it-once and do-it-right philosophy...it might mean waiting a bit longer and saving up with certain bits, prioritizing, etc. to get to your end goal. I would never short change myself with a crap part only to have that money lost in the end. Part of good engine building, research into..., etc. is doing your homework on where your going to get you stuff...shopping around and digging for information about where your "stuff" is going to come from and what kind of quality to expect based on other peoples experiences.
"There is also no guarantee that if you buy the genuine OEM part directly from their dealer network (just thinking of decades of w/c VW door handles for instance) that you will get anything but pure garbage - in a fancy box."
I would def. agree with that comment in regards to the VW door handles! However, I think that was more pure design flaw than anything and the concern that I have with "parts" is vitally important, precision parts such as engine parts, internals, etc. I can't say that I have ever had a ill experience for instance with Goetze rings...and will not run anything but in the car. Remember Hillfolks thread on Total Seals ring process? They said they couldn't build a better ring (hence, mod that one). That to me is good news. Same goes with the pistons. After having my OS Nural's taken down to the shop for the final honing, etc. the mech. their said he seldom sees pistons of that kind of quality come into the shop. Granted, they do a lot of domestic motors....but what does that tell you about our own outsourcing... err...
Maybe we need to add to the catch...
"You get what you pay for if you so choose to buy it...but don't come crying back to me..."
There are probably few "truths" in auto parts...and the mark up has to be HUGE just about anywhere you buy from. However, I feel that much more comfortable buying a precision part, manufactured to OEM or better specifications from a reputable manufacture that turns out that type of quality on a daily basis. Do I think that the worker at that factory will get a good portion of that end product? I doubt it... and I won't go into the labour issues.
Show me the comparisons and I'll change my mind. Otherwise...and I'm on a budget as well...but I'll stick to the good stuff.
Joe
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about the pump heads seizing up: Tintin was able to seize a 12mm BOSCH head, and completely destroy it. now if the pump head was destroyed during *normal* use then yea it's a crap defective part.
one thing for sure that i wouldn't buy non oem is the belt tensioner. that should be common knowledge by now, and it seems nobody is bringing that up. there's just been so many timing failures due to it. it would be just like playing Russian roulette with your engine :lol:
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Joe:
We agree, for the most part.
I did not qualify WHO claimed a part to be OEM, but you are quite right: that is something for the manufacturer to declare, not a vendor (unless substantiated).
As far as Cofap (not Cofab if I remember right) goes: I had nothing but perfect results from them in air cooled days. There are still a couple of 1776 engines I built 25 years ago with Cofap cylinders that are being raced today (untouched) after years of street abuse. That's my point: there may indeed be a "better" OEM part, but just how good is good enough? IMNO, if it gets the job done, doesn't break, priced right and is AVAILABLE, count me in. Another Cofap comment though: I don't think Brazilian parts are anything near what they were 20 years ago.
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Joe:
We agree, for the most part.
I did not qualify WHO claimed a part to be OEM, but you are quite right: that is something for the manufacturer to declare, not a vendor (unless substantiated).
As far as Cofap (not Cofab if I remember right) goes: I had nothing but perfect results from them in air cooled days. There are still a couple of 1776 engines I built 25 years ago with Cofap cylinders that are being raced today (untouched) after years of street abuse. That's my point: there may indeed be a "better" OEM part, but just how good is good enough? IMNO, if it gets the job done, doesn't break, priced right and is AVAILABLE, count me in. Another Cofap comment though: I don't think Brazilian parts are anything near what they were 20 years ago.
PS: I take it the repetition was for emphasis? (sorry couldn't resist)
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about the pump heads seizing up: Tintin was able to seize a 12mm BOSCH head, and completely destroy it. now if the pump head was destroyed during *normal* use then yea it's a crap defective part.
one thing for sure that i wouldn't buy non oem is the belt tensioner. that should be common knowledge by now, and it seems nobody is bringing that up. there's just been so many timing failures due to it. it would be just like playing Russian roulette with your engine :lol:
True...its not just 12mm heads...I'll put you in the direction of TDIClub as I'm not going to drag dirt in to the thread here...but you'll find the answer without me going into more detail.
The 12mm head RPM limititations have been discussed in detail. However, I remember Martins head and it just wasn't a "normal" use problem that he had. Alot goes into the hydraulic pump head. You'll find info on bad camplates, snapped plungers and seizing of the non-BOSCH heads...and specifically...well, lets not go there...
Joe:
We agree, for the most part.
I did not qualify WHO claimed a part to be OEM, but you are quite right: that is something for the manufacturer to declare, not a vendor (unless substantiated).
As far as Cofap (not Cofab if I remember right) goes: I had nothing but perfect results from them in air cooled days. There are still a couple of 1776 engines I built 25 years ago with Cofap cylinders that are being raced today (untouched) after years of street abuse. That's my point: there may indeed be a "better" OEM part, but just how good is good enough? IMNO, if it gets the job done, doesn't break, priced right and is AVAILABLE, count me in. Another Cofap comment though: I don't think Brazilian parts are anything near what they were 20 years ago.
PS: I take it the repetition was for emphasis? (sorry couldn't resist)
Sorry about the double...it wasn't for emphasis...it was a double click on the submit button this morning as the forums seem to be slow today.
As for the spelling of "Cofab"...it is Cofab rings that I'm referring to...please see here.
http://www.alibaba.com/company/100078126.html
Eh...quality 20 years ago is much different than today and I'll hold to that.
Look at the former "EMPI" mufflers and the current EMPI's (made in china) that easily rust out in 8 months (in some cases, climates...etc). I in particular had one that doesn't see salt, etc. rust out within that time frame. But...EMPI has seriously gone the way of the doh doh
I think I have a mantra...as I say it again..
To each his own...and you really get what you pay for.
That...is for emphasis...
Joe
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Joe:
Shows how long I have been out of the picture. I didn't know there WAS a "Cofab" (obviously Chinese licensee just like Cofab is/was the Brazilian one).
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Yah...
Just goes to show how much the idea of "quality" in our world has changed... Cofab really used to have a decent reputation, etc. Aircooled wise...EMPI (like i said) is a great example. Used to be awesome quality stuff...I know guys still running some original EMPI performance parts...and now there stuff....well....
Eh.
Joe
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For what it's worth.
An example of what I was trying to bring up about quality of a part being sold.
Alot of 'brand name' tool manufactures have moved the majority of their manufacturing to third world countries.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2232
That thread shows some examples of tool manufactures you used to buy that were made in the usa. Now they have been bought out and/or are now being manufactured elsewhere. It also has a long running debate to the point of manufacture quality and brand name, etc etc..
So, in many cases not only has the manufacturing been shipped out to country's with less stringent labor standards, the quality of the tools themselves have fallen at the cost of the established brand name.
(I'll leave Joes point about safety conditions for employee's out of the picture, for this response but it should be something people are aware of...)
In a global economy many company's are making similar decisions to cut costs. Example? http://www.goulds.com/ Gould pumps, used to be made completely in the USA (the original foundry is in the town I live in)
One of their engineer’s that we are friends with just got back from China building a huge new facility there. Where all (or most) production of their product is now overseas to china. Their pumps used to be known for reliability, longevity, and availability of parts.
My aunt's well pump just went (a gould pump), and the plumber that replaced it said Goulds pumps now are junk, plastic impellers where metal should be, motors that burn out, hard to get parts etc. So she spent more for a pump that would last longer, have parts available for it, etc.
The point? Well, Goulds had a great brand name at one point. Now, production has been moved overseas and quality of their product cheapened for a better bottom line. Unless you know the history though you would think “Gould pump, good American made pump will last for ever, etc etc.”
So, it's not just related to just car parts, it affects all manufactures.
While I mostly agree that you do get what you pay for. I also think that sometimes if you don’t do research and ‘buy’ based off a product that used to be good. You will end up overpaying for a perceived 'good brand' name which might not keep the same stringent standards that it once did to compete in the global economy.
Another personal example, even though Craftsman tools are made in the USA, I feel their quality has slipped and been lessened over the years to compete with the low cost tool alternatives. I would rather pay more for something (SK, BluePoint, Matco, Snapon) that has a tighter tolerance policy on wrenches which will fit a bolt tighter and break less.
Craftsman have a lifetime warrenty, but when I'm working on a car, if I snap the only wrench I have (even though it's got a replacement) that's time money and energy I need to spend to get it. I would rather pay more to get a tool that will not snap, or not snap as soon (i.e. higher quality.)
So, my point of seeing a point of failure comparison on parts in question will illuminate and eliminate many questions that are raised about the 'quality' of parts and help people make an informed decision about what they wish to spend their money on.
But as with anything these days you need to do some research on what your buying and what the failure rate of said product is.
my 2 cents.
-Todd
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Well put Pete,
I agree this board is a great place to discuss our projects.
Off we go...
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But for the people who don't want to pay $2800 for a new TDI pump at the dealership (I got an email this week from a customer), or even $1000 online, I am trying to be the best alternative. Only time will tell if I have succeeded or not.
And this is the part that is yet to be seen. If you see it as an argument, then your not reading correctly. With the service support and information that you provide to your customers and/or potential customers...I would seriously question your "best alternative" notion. So...its something to improve on and supply to your customers when they have questions.
In the end it is about quality...and if your willing to sacrifice quality in the name of the dollar...then thats your perogative. It will be a regret somewhere down the line. Otherwise, provide the proof of quality and dig into your product a bit more so its more competitive with others if you really want to be seen as the "best alternative". No one wants your vendor list...but people do want answers on origin and quality based on all the above factors that we have mentioned at one point or another.
I personally when building a motor (and working on a seriously tight budget) would rather push my timeline back in the name of saving up for a more quality built, reputable part for which the vendor stands behind vs. just buying something I don't know much about and the vendor seems shady on answers...or just doesn't answer them. Still, through all of this to this day my inquiry about the pistons that prothe has is still unanswered and that just rings TOO true for me in so many ways and there is instead a nice set of OS Nurals sitting here ready to go in. Did it stink to have to pay a little bit more for them? Yes... Did pushing the time back hurt some too... yes. However, I'm impressed and comfortable with the quality of the product and I know WHAT I am putting in my motor and have the manufacturer able to back things up in the end (as well as the vendor) if something went wrong.
Dissappointing that you still don't answer Prothe...but to me it is an expression of true character that I think many others here just don't see. It is interesting where you hop into/out of conversations among many other things here an in your business.
Ah yes....on we go. This has been quite an impressive thread and I've been surprised with the number of emails and PM's that I got regarding this too. Its interesting to see where the members of the forum are at with things but those of us that have been around for a while know where business' that have this philosophy end up...
Woo-Woo...
Joe
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All I will add is that I would probably not have a VW diesel in my car right now if it wasn't for Prothe. I wouldn't have been able to afford $1000+ for a new TDI head, $450 for new pistons, whatever a new 10mm head costs, etc.
It would have been cheaper to buy a whole new engine than rebuild my AAZ. It shouldn't have to be that way. I can see getting the premium parts for performance builds, but for the only slightly modded engine I am more than happy with aftermarket. Granted I don't have many miles on them yet, but my pistons seemed fine after getting slightly beat by my exhaust valves. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to buy a specific brand part. People will buy according to what matters most to them. If they end up getting a crap part, lesson learned, they will buy elsewhere. The thing is you will never know until you try a part.
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this has nothing to do with prothe , but the variable quality of " name brand parts "......
everyone one here is familar with the brand name "moog " aren't they .... i;ve never had aproblem with them , UNTIL i needed some ball joints for my vw ....
put a set in , and a couple months latter when i put on my good tires , i had a wheel alinment ..... they said the ball joints where wore out .
i thought the shop was trying to scam me and i got pissed off and left .
next day , got under the car and checked things out ... yep ball joints are gone ...
put a new set in ... again moog , got wheel alinment .
one year latter , replaced tie rod ends , and struts , got wheel alinment ..... same story from shop , ball joints are gone south .
replaced with another moog set ( that is all any of the parts stores had in stock locally ) kept bill this time ....
about a year latter put new tires on and car was pulling to one side . put it up on the hoist , both ball joints and one tie rod ends where worn out , the other tie rod end was loose .
went in to my local parts place and found a company out of italy that make the various joints , BUT WAS WARNED OF THE LOW QUALITY OF THE PARTS , they where 1/3 the price of the moog parts .
took about a week for the joints to come in .
that was 2 years ago , and just went over my car last night with a fine tooth comb , and the joints are still nice and tight .
took the worn out moog parts back , and after a month of or so , finally did get my money back out of them. moog was trying to claim abuse and neglect on the part drtiver of the car , and where trying to get out of refunding me on their faulty parts .
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I believe if you look back...it is Prothe's description (or lack there of) and describing his parts on par with OE parts, quality, etc. with little information given.
So...they are related...
Jim,
Thats great for you and if your happy...thats great. He'll need "testimonies" of his customers like you in the end after you've had a chance to really run the motor, etc. If I remember correctly, you haven't had much of a chance to even run the motor too much yet...so, time will tell whether your cost savings will benefit in the long run.
And...just for the fun of it. Some reading...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199567&page=2&highlight=Prothe
There is more than that...took some digging, but you'll find additional info. as just an example.
Joe
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Well, yet another reason to run a VNT. I don't think there are any cheap copies out. :lol: Glad I rebuilt mine, finding used parts.
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As far as buying cheap Chinese parts, I'm not afraid to give them a try. I got a couple of window regulators for this same '98 Jetta. They were made in Taiwan. The price was right and they fit perfect. I now have four working windows. When I started, all four were inoperable.
sucks that his turbo didn't exactly fit right, but oh well. It's not an oem fit. new units are what? $1300? rebuilt $1000? how much is Prothe selling it for? $250 (just the center unit and not exhaust manifold)
for Prothe's price you can buy 4 of the center units and probably last at least twice as long :lol:
i'm really interested in his T3 turbo and what kind of abuse it can withstand...
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Geez, just lock this thread already. It's just going in circles now. The people who want to buy from prothe will continue to and the people who don't want to will continue not to.
:roll:
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I think it is interesting how he continues to skate myke w's orginal question which I continuely refer to...with the aid of others...
as to going in circles...it will and if proof isn't convincing enough then really...just do not know what to say...
do what you like and like what you do I suppose...
it is a very small group of support that has very limited factual information...so many others have just stayed quiet and that is fine but I can gurantee the pool of buyers that will trust him here will be small...
joe
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I'm in the mechanic since several years, now i have my garage and i do not repair only vw, but all car and small truk, there is 2-3 pieces quality, dealer and jobber, generally jobber are great replacement parts, not all, but since a few years there is on internet a VERY bad quality parts, a real crap, I bought some of it to try to save money, loll..... It's good for the garbage.
While looking at the Prothe's web page, I see a lot of these crap parts, like the head gasket he sells It's a piece of paper with some grey color glued paint with a sort metal o-ring, good for the garbage.
Diesel pump parts are very poor metal quality, I know, I already bought it.
I'm affraid about these tendency of poor quality around the world, It's a plague, It'a 50 years back jump, I do not understand how people can sell this type of bad quality parts, It's to laugh at people........
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Jimfoo, give me 3-4 months, and I'll have complete VNT turbos for both the VNT15 and the KP39A!
This post is going back and forth, and to a certain degree, it isn't about me. I'm not the only person on the internet selling aftermarket parts at a discounted price. I'm only the target, because I focus on VW Diesel and have a lot of the hard to find expensive parts.
The question about aftermarket parts will long outlive me.
err....blah... sure...ok...
Only one posting claims though...and have I haven't seen a lot of other diesel "junk" out there...as most vendors are straight forward and you know what your dealing with.
Joe
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Diesel pump parts are very poor metal quality, I know, I already bought it.
I'm affraid about these tendency of poor quality around the world, It's a plague, It'a 50 years back jump, I do not understand how people can sell this type of bad quality parts, It's to laugh at people........
Almost a rhetorical question - because someone will buy it (as you did).
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Diesel pump parts are very poor metal quality, I know, I already bought it.
I'm affraid about these tendency of poor quality around the world, It's a plague, It'a 50 years back jump, I do not understand how people can sell this type of bad quality parts, It's to laugh at people........
Almost a rhetorical question - because someone will buy it (as you did).
Do you think Pat that the above comment that you made makes it ok? Or wouldn't you rather have a bit of education behind what you are buying, know what you are buying and learn from others mistakes regarding it. So that your hard earned project bucks go towards something of more quality than just the best bargain basement price out there.
Guess what I am saying is that your comment is more than fair...and is VERY true...but, does that make it right?
Joe
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It doesn't make it wrong. Everyone can make a decision. They should know that for a much cheaper price, something has to be different be it just labor cost or quality. It is the buyers responsibility to decide if a low price part is worth the risk. Is it a complex, high tolerance item like a turbo or a low tech piston? Much more to go wrong with a poor quality turbo than a piston if the price difference s due to quality.
Example, there is a guy selling cheap plasma cutters. He imports them, tests them and a decent percentage are bad, but he can sell the others which work and make money. The people who buy them at 50-70% less than other brands are happy with them. If they weren't available at that price, people wouldn't be able to afford them.
As far as the turbo example on TDI Club, maybe they have less power due to poorer quality, maybe the installer didn't adjust the wastegate, maybe they aren't the same as the turbo they are supposed to replace. It's hard to tell from the posts just how knowledgeable the people who bought them are. But yes, that's the price you pay for a non-OEM part, take it or leave it. It seems like all you are trying to do is drum up bad things, and maybe the turbos might be one, but I have quite a few parts from him, and have had no problems with what I bought. There is the chance they won't last as long and I may have to replace them sooner, but that's a chance I took. As far as his pistons, the ones I got were Arco (http://www.arcomotor.com/profile/index.php) brand, out of Taiwan, like 90% of everything imported to the US. They seemed well made.
Times are getting tighter with fuel prices, so people shouldn't waste their money. If they have the money to buy Nüral pistons or a Kobenschmidt head, then they should. But what if they don't have the money? Just let the car sit and rot? I don't know why this discussion continues as it's about decision and opinion, two things which are very hard to change. At work, my boss wnated everyone to buy Fluke meters as they are well known. Are they the best, I don't think so. I think it's just a name any more. I bought a different cheaper brand, and you know what, it was more accurate than one other guys Fluke for half the price with twice the features. Times change, quality changes. Guess I'll shut up now as I seem to be rambling. Time for coffee.
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I can respect that and I'm not trying to "drum" any bad stuff up. However, I will site examples so that there is the knowledge out there for those that are looking for parts in the future, etc.
In question is not Prothe's parts...but his lack of response and inquiry when buying his parts and his comparing them to others without any sort of comparison. Turbos aren't even the half of the example...nozzles, junk seals, etc. round out more of the list. Also, when posting that I was interested in his pistons (yet he never returned my PM re:) I had a couple guys send me info they had on the pistons that were bought from him...that the wrist pins didn't fit the rods snuggly....one example citing failure when taken above 18psi, etc.
Yet, somehow...Prothe still continues to skate the true issues here with him and what Myke W was originally addressing...interesting. Think I mentioned that before again.
Jim, if thats how you prefer to build your motors, etc. Thats fine...its respected. However, I have a difference of opinion and no matter how long this thread goes on that fact will remain....like you said, matters of choice and opinion. Its better that the information be out there regarding it then buying items on half-baked notions and I think with this day and age that I'd rather stretch my dollar further with quality (even if it does mean "letting the car sit longer", vs. buying the cheaper chicken...that your right...in the end, you'll probably end up replace in the not too distant future.
There are a great number of forum members here, and your one of them that I respect alot and have made some good contributions to things. Some of you back Prothe...great. However, it is nothing personal but our opinions will continue to differ on this and newbies especially have the right to be warned about this type of vendor. Especially when you pose important questions with no response and really offer up quality standards based on nothing whatsoever.
But again....this will go round and round. So...
Again, I don't have a ton of money. The idea was to have the current motor built by now but in having to buy pistons, I am having to push my timeline 3-4 months now...I'm fine with having to do that in the name of knowing what is going into my motor and having a bit more confidence in what I spent my limited cash on.
Again...its to each....his own.
Joe
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OK,
I guess its time to tell my fuel pump story. I originally Bought a fuel pump from him on ebay. It was suppose to be a turbo pump but it wasn't. Months later I found this out. To his credit, I was able to work out a deal to trade that pump, and two NA pumps, and a high altitude pump (looks like a turbo pump, but doesn't work the same) that leaks out the bottom somewhere. All this for a rebuilt 1.6 turbo diesel pump. He says ok so I eat the shipping on sending them to him. Weeks later I get a pump in the mail--- It's my high altitude pump back again.( His email says it's a turbo pump and didn't have any to rebuild at the time. But I swear there's one on ebay). I put it on and it won't start. I try every priming trick I know, It won't start! I send it back and a few weeks later it shows up again. Same pump, I didn't want this one back I wanted a 1.6 TD pump with the cold start rpm increase. Which is what we agreed to the first time around. So I put this pump on (which I've gotten quite good at by now) The good news first-- it starts right up. Now the bad news-- I move the throttle, nothing happens! NOTHING! no rpm increase at all. So I have to take the top of the pump off and try to reset the arm to the correct position. Those of you who have done the governor mod know its helpful to know your starting points......
Anyway, I get it running and find out the it still leaks! How do you rebuild a pump and not check it for leaks? Let alone how do you test the pump and not catch the throttle lever isn't right? When I received the pump it had a tag on it that says OK to ship. There is writing on the other side that says: Idle set to 10"/ 200 RPH (its probably M but it looks like an H) Full throttle set to 25"/ 200 RPH. What do these numbers mean? More importantly, how do you put an "OK to ship" tag on it if it doesn't work and still leaks?
After this experience I really can't see how he can earn back my trust.
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That's the thing. People have to know the difference. I would buy certain parts that serve a simple purpose. I would never buy a pump from him and run it as is. Or really anything else he "rebuilt/designed/modified". However, I would buy something like a waterpump, oil cooler or turbo oil line.
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rallydiesel,
There are "simple parts" that he offers up that have failed quite nearly "out of the box". Ask Myke (if he'll share) re: his IP pump seals that he bought from him. Look at the head gaskets that Tin-Tin was mentioning. Would you trust those items? The above story about the IP pump just sounds like someone who is in the business of taking pumps apart, resealing and not really paying attention to "how" things come apart, need to be marked and come back together. Made a good quick buck though. I've said before in other threads that the pumps aren't rocket science, and don't take a ton of work to reseal, etc. But damn, if I'm going to spend the time in tearing one down I'm going to:
1. Make sure my area is clean
2. Make sure I note the position of the throttle shaft and all other parts for reassembly
3. Make sure I use good...OEM Bosch seals or similar (there is one other manufacturer that is "ok" in my book. However, there are alot of others off loading the old non-ULSD seals at the moment...so you have to be careful
4. Make sure I know how the entire pump operates before I sell it to someone....err...
A DIY'er can do a pump and do a nice job on it. Its the time invested and the quality of parts used that will make the difference in the end. However, there are things to check with the pump to make sure its still good to use, etc. (which most the time they are).
I can agree with buying certain parts as well. A waterpump for instance...hopefully he hasn't laid his hands on it in any other way than to box it and ship it out...but, like most other vendors post...I'd like to know what waterpump it is. For instance....is it a Bocar? Ok... Fair to post that and have such information available. Other vendors do so as well and if he isn't afraid of the quality of his product, then why not make that information available?
Joe
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So what is the story with the seals? I bought his seal kit and put some of them in, but so far I haven't had problems, but then again they haven't been in for that long. Hopefully the seals or supplier are different now as I've taken my pump off more than enough lately to fix the clip on the cold start timing advance shaft. The parts that I've had no problems with, so far, are pump seals, TDI injectors, TDI head , TDI pistons, 10mm pump head, TDI camplate and springs. The head itself was too tight to turn the camshaft when cap #5 was tightened, but the machine shop said that is common with a head like that on the thrust bearing, so I don't know that's a fault. Better than being too loose I guess. The casting was rougher in the runners than my stock IDI head, but that was to be expected for the price. Besides timing tools, that's everything I have bought from him other than a turbo gasket. I have had no problems with anything so far. One thing on the seal kit was that it had brass washers for the check valves instead of copper, which made me hesitant to use them. Maybe they would work just fine, but I heated up the old copper ones to soften the and re-used them instead.
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So what is the story with the seals? I bought his seal kit and put some of them in, but so far I haven't had problems, but then again they haven't been in for that long. Hopefully the seals or supplier are different now as I've taken my pump off more than enough lately to fix the clip on the cold start timing advance shaft. The parts that I've had no problems with, so far, are pump seals, TDI injectors, TDI head , TDI pistons, 10mm pump head, TDI camplate and springs. The head itself was too tight to turn the camshaft when cap #5 was tightened, but the machine shop said that is common with a head like that on the thrust bearing, so I don't know that's a fault. Better than being too loose I guess. The casting was rougher in the runners than my stock IDI head, but that was to be expected for the price. Besides timing tools, that's everything I have bought from him other than a turbo gasket. I have had no problems with anything so far. One thing on the seal kit was that it had brass washers for the check valves instead of copper, which made me hesitant to use them. Maybe they would work just fine, but I heated up the old copper ones to soften the and re-used them instead.
i can tell you that the camshaft on my TDI engine is pretty stiff as well, and it is what came with my longblock. (reputable shop rebuilt it for me with new lifters, valve guides, seals, gave it an extremely smooth finish 8) and with parts etc it cost me around $250. it was worth that price alone to have the built up carbon+oil mixture from the egr removed. i had to pay like $20 per lifter though... whereas from prothe i could have saved some moolah. these expensive lifters better prove to be of good quality! or i'm demanding my money back! :roll: :lol:
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Jim,
I can tell you that I have read stores regarding the following items:
1. Pump seals ( I hope myke chimes in here), swelling, distortion and not fitting correctly. Also, sets that were advertised as ULSD compliant but were not actually
2. Camplates (actually breaking after 20k)
3. Hydraulic heads (seizing) and similar chinese heads that seem to have fairly soft plungers that actually have snapped
4. Nozzles (that traditional bosio nozzle vs. Smog, Prothe, cheap nozzle debate....though, just smoke issues and not as much power...but nothing really failure wise)
see...i'm being objective...
5. Pistons...weight discrepancies but more issue with not being able to take sustained boost pressure above stock limits.... (I could post what I have, but they were personal threads directly sent to me...I could ask the senders, but they may not want to gripe...but I personally appreciated the advice before I bought anything)
6. Heard similar about the blank head castings...but thats not a huge issue. I'd port match on any motor I was working on...haven't heard anything otherwise...
7. Timing tools....eh...I lent out a great set of OEM timing tools that I had at one point...and never got them back...in a pinch, I bought the ones that Prothe had. I still have them. Cam lock works fine...don't use the sprocket pin, but the dial indicator and gauge holder is so impossible to get a good reading on that it makes it frustrating. A new, higher quality metric indicator would do wonders, but its still hard to get the holder to "hold" the indicator in place a lot of the time. I learned my lesson though... i got what i paid for. A Zmak kit will be in the future.
Thats some of what I know. In the interests of not "flaming" as I have been accused of, etc. I won't post further links to these threads (that detail these problems) or emails/PM's that I received (based on my inquiry about his pistons) unless I get permission from the original poster and only for the reason that these people already had frustrating experience not only with product...but with customer service from Prothe as well and don't really want to be drug into it further. However, if it is so desired, I will gladly link to further threads and ask those people if they wouldn't mind sharing their story.
Again, Myke...I hope you share yours.
Joe
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... I learned my lesson though... i got what i paid for...
Ok I've been following this thread - to clarify I have not bought parts from ANYONE mentioned above.
Yet.
I have no axe to grind & I respect all on this board who have earned my respect through their knowledge & their willingness to share it freely.
It boils down to Caveat Emptor... If something is significantly cheaper than than an equivalent part elsewhere, there is generally a good reason for that. You pays your money & you takes your choice.
OEM parts are (generally but not always) good quality but high price.
Non OEM parts are (generally) lower quality but lower price.
Its a trade off - If Prothe was claiming his parts were OEM then I could understand the ***ing going on here. From what evidence I have seen he does not claim this. Which is why some of this is coming across as sour grapes.
While there are some valid points being raised re: communication issues - again if you don't like the service don't buy. Personally I check online vendors out beofre I use them - a physical store I can go and yell at someone - online there are risks involved.
Again - we're all grown ups here (allegedly)
Its a free market folks - its called capitalism....
Just my 2 pence...
[dons flame proof suit]
DD
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... I learned my lesson though... i got what i paid for...
Ok I've been following this thread - to clarify I have not bought parts from ANYONE mentioned above.
Yet.
I have no axe to grind & I respect all on this board who have earned my respect through their knowledge & their willingness to share it freely.
It boils down to Caveat Emptor... If something is significantly cheaper than than an equivalent part elsewhere, there is generally a good reason for that. You pays your money & you takes your choice.
OEM parts are (generally but not always) good quality but high price.
Non OEM parts are (generally) lower quality but lower price.
Its a trade off - If Prothe was claiming his parts were OEM then I could understand the ***ing going on here. From what evidence I have seen he does not claim this. Which is why some of this is coming across as sour grapes.
While there are some valid points being raised re: communication issues - again if you don't like the service don't buy. Personally I check online vendors out beofre I use them - a physical store I can go and yell at someone - online there are risks involved.
Again - we're all grown ups here (allegedly)
Its a free market folks - its called capitalism....
Just my 2 pence...
[dons flame proof suit]
DD
I think I agree with everything that was said here. However, better for members here to know...be aware, etc.
Prothe does make those claims on several different fronts and is very "suspicious" in others. Please read on, in detail and in his site. Also, consider various feedback he has in other areas and his original claims (re: his pistons...back when myke was working hard on getting the Nurals) and you'll see what is meant. His claims.. based on....well....nothing whatsoever or so vague you'd have your head spinning. I'm glad my dissappointed and feeling the need for "good" customer service before the sale set me off from it right away. Gladly, there is a claim in hand soon that someone may be willing to offer up their piston for example (of Prothe's) that shows "what kind of quality" we are dealing with here. It'll be interesting to see.
Very nice.
Joe
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About the pump seal, I already bought these seals for my personnal use, cots 3$ at the chinesse supplier, and I can tell at all that is only a 0.10$ rubber o-ring, really not recommended for diesel pump, + an oem bosch seals kit cost around 20-25$, more seals is include in the bosch kit ...etc....
Chinese came plate are porous and melt rapidly, I checked with binocular microscope and I'm affraid to see the bad quality of the metal.
A water pump driven by the timing belt...... oufff!! no comment.
etc... etc.. etc.....
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This is interesting...Prothe....how many domains do you own...
http://www.tdi-parts.com/
http://www.turbosandparts.com/
http://www.volkswaparts.com/
http://www.dieselvw.com/
http://www.wagenparts.com/
http://www.wolfsburgparts.com/
http://www.passat-parts.com/
http://www.emiata.com/
Damn... and I won't say what I felt like saying...
Fell upon that by total surprise tonight trying to find something else.
Joe
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This is interesting...Prothe....how many domains do you own...
Looks like a smart businessman to me.
I hate crappy parts just as much as the next guy, I also despise that everything I buy seems to have "made in China" (or indonesia, or india or taiwan ect) on it. But unfortunatly no one is going to be able to change it.
If you cant beat 'em join em!
I suggest that if we want to keep our cars going were going to need parts. Hey Prothe can you get some Precombustion chambers for Turbo diesel 1.6's made up? (fyi I buy almost all OEM)
I would suggest that poor quality parts (or service) would be shared in feedback and buyers can make a decision based on feedback.
I would also like to add that Prothe's responses have been polite and nice everytime I have read them. I would probably not respond as well, so Kudo's to Prothe.
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This is interesting...Prothe....how many domains do you own...
Looks like a smart businessman to me.
I would also like to add that Prothe's responses have been polite and nice everytime I have read them. I would probably not respond as well, so Kudo's to Prothe.
X2 :)
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(http://www.izix.com/personal/photos/other/images/StuntPlaneSpiral.jpg)
That's enough circles.
If anyone has any complaints or compliments for Prothe, please use the Feedback section. Personal experiences only.