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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: TDIMeister on June 06, 2005, 04:34:11 pm
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I can arrange to get you a guinea pig, if that's what it takes.
Also, will you be able to make it to the June 18th GTG in Dorchester?
Cheers,
Dave
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yes that would be good for the experimental pump. i've had one
apart but i don't have a core to play with.
where is Dorchester?
Giles
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PM sent with directions :)
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Aside from modifications does anyone know of a good TDI pump rebuilder in Canada? I got a 12mm pump, but it appears that something is wrong with it as it won't actually pump. The fuel that came out of it was "Skanky smelling" as my mechnics have said, I don't know if that indicates anything in particular though. The vendor has offered to refund me the money on the pump, but I have to send it back to him and that isn't going to be cheap, neither has the labour been so far to install the Fubar'ed pump. I am almost to the point where I want to cut my losses and have a new 11mm pump installed, but I liked the idea of the 12mm pump and wouldn't mind sitcking with it....doh! What to do indeed...
PS-In case youare wondering the mehcnics have installed more than a few of these, and probably close to 100 of the TD pumps over the years...so I think they know what they are doing. ;)
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W00t, car is working great now, just needed to have an electric fuel pump hooked up to the car for ht einital start, then it slowly sped up to full speed idle, now I just have to breathe on the keyin this weather and the car starts up and runs sooo smoothly with gobs of extra power in the 12mm pump...I know I am not making full use of it without a chip, but that will be for the future.
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I know up until 2004, the cars still used VE pumps. Does that mean that you can use a standard VE injection pump head? I can get those in 12mm, that's why I ask.
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Any update to the TDI pump mods? Just curious. My main question is that if you make mods to the pump, what's that going to do to the ECU? And, do we know what kind of RPM capabilities a modded TDI pump can make?
This is exciting stuff.
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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hi guys
you're not getting the idea of electronic controls
the computer controls the pump if i change things in the pump
it won't take effect unless u program the computer to use the
new settings.
no one has given me a core yet for me to try things. when that
happens then i will see what i can do to fool the computer that it's
still stock but it has my settings.
Giles
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I doubt that "magic" can be done with those pump.. There's nothing inside the pump. The only thing i can do ( and has been done many time ) is to put a bigger plunger/head assembly. Im running a 12mm instead of a 10 in my TDI and let me tell you that it rock!
Marc/
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doubt that "magic" can be done with those pump..
I agree. The only mechanical limit is the displacement, which can be increased with a bigger head/plunger. There is no mechanical governor and the advance and injected quantity are both controlled by software.
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What was that pump head intended for? I can get 12mm pump heads fairly cheap. They're supposed to be for a cummins, but I don't see why they wouldn't fit.
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What was that pump head intended for? I can get 12mm pump heads fairly cheap. They're supposed to be for a cummins, but I don't see why they wouldn't fit.
The head im using is a direct swap. Cummins head dosen't fits. The place where the spring guide pins sit is not the same. I order them in Europe.
Marc/
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doubt that "magic" can be done with those pump..
I agree. The only mechanical limit is the displacement, which can be increased with a bigger head/plunger. There is no mechanical governor and the advance and injected quantity are both controlled by software.
Someone I know is CNCing a custom timing cap for the TDI pump to physically allow more timing advance. Of course, software will be modified to take advantage of the new timing range.
I want to rev higher than 5,500 RPM eventually. I had a 12mm plunger and head on my TDI pump but a friend of mine with the same setup seized his pump at 5,500 crank RPM. Most 12mm pumps are limited to approx. 1,800 to 2,000 RPM (multiply by 2 for crank RPM). So I went back to 11mm for now. I may buy a brand new 10mm TDI pump in the near future and keep it that way.
A TDIclub member dynoed 190whp with a 12mm pump but he stops at 4,000 RPM. For better street drive ability and more horsepower potential I want to push the big lump of torque into the higher RPM range.
Over 300lb-ft at the wheels below 3,000 RPM is still possible with a 10mm or 11mm pump, so I don't find the low RPM 12mm appealing anymore.
My 12mm pump head & plunger are for sale if anyone wants it :)
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I want to rev higher than 5,500 RPM eventually.
You figure there's much power up there? From what I've seen of the TDI torque curve it begins a pretty steep plunge at about 2500rpm. By the time 4500rpm rolls around and the ECM begins to pull back the fueling they are usually down to about 30% of the peak. This seems to be common to all TDI's, chipped, injectored, big turbo or not, even TDIRS's mechanical pump engine has roughly the same torque curve. I'm thinking its just charge mix/burn time thats killing the power. More timing advance can help with ignition lag but it can't speed up the burn. I think for the TDI the power needs to be made with cylinder pressure (torque), not rpm.
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You figure there's much power up there? From what I've seen of the TDI torque curve it begins a pretty steep plunge at about 2500rpm. By the time 4500rpm rolls around and the ECM begins to pull back the fueling they are usually down to about 30% of the peak. This seems to be common to all TDI's, chipped, injectored, big turbo or not, even TDIRS's mechanical pump engine has roughly the same torque curve. I'm thinking its just charge mix/burn time thats killing the power. More timing advance can help with ignition lag but it can't speed up the burn. I think for the TDI the power needs to be made with cylinder pressure (torque), not rpm.
You "think" something is killing power up there; I still can't take anyone's assumptions or theories to be 100% true. I don't recall anyone having actually tested a high RPM TDI. Today's powerful TDIs featured at tdiclub.com still aren't at their limits; we're just scratching the surface of their power potential, compared to what the tractor and Cummins guys have already done years ago.
Nobody thought a few years ago that a 6cyl 12v Cummins motor would make useable power above 4,000 RPM. Now it's possible. Piers Diesel is currently building a 6,000 RPM motor.
Unless someone can provide credible data stating that extra RPMs will not yield more potential HP in a VE 1.9 TDI, I am still going to continue with this project because I'm curious :) This is a drag only project so I'm willing to blow the engine. Then I'll have the block rebuilt (or another block purchased). The design of the internal block parts, and the pump, can be modified. Manufacturing for custom TDI pistons and cranks are already available (there is a 2.2L stroker kit for VE 1.9L TDIs in Sweden, but for low RPM application).
Despite the peak torque usually occuring at around 2,500 RPM in a relatively stock TDI motor, the peak HP with a "bigger" turbo, injectors, and stock cam is just above 4,000 RPM and it stays relatively flat up to 5,500 RPM with good tuning. This is one of the most powerful TDIs I've seen so far, with a nicer torque curve for street use.
FYI I tune chips in association with another tuner in Europe. The fuel maps can be adjusted well past 4,500 RPM. The ECM pulling fuel by 30% you mentioned has already been addressed a while ago.
Can the HP curve be made to remain flat or gained just after 5,500 RPM? I think it's possible, and it may gave better HP results than having to resort to excessive cylinder pressures in low RPM.
There was a pump timing / high RPM discussion on tdiclub.com a while ago, although there wasn't much content:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB4&Number=987518
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There was a pump timing / high RPM discussion on tdiclub.com a while ago, although there wasn't much content:
Sadly, a lack of content is pretty much a TDIClub theme these days, thats why you'll mostly find me here...
After reading Des's post though, maybe he's onto something. If the timing does in fact end at 17º, modifying the housing to allow more advance could yield a bit more power at high speed, with appropriate software of course. As was posted, the theoretical range is about 24º crankshaft but the first few degrees are likely wasted, applied as the engine cranks and housing pressure builds, just like in the IDI's. Perhaps shimming/changing the spring or dropping the housing pressure and just advancing the static timing to compensate would give the needed headroom. I'll leave you to experiment... :D
You still have to consider the speed that these engines already run in stock trim, its pretty much the upper reach of any diesel. What do the truck guys do to get the torque up at high rpm?
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There was a pump timing / high RPM discussion on tdiclub.com a while ago, although there wasn't much content:
Sadly, a lack of content is pretty much a TDIClub theme these days, thats why you'll mostly find me here...
Yeah, me too. it also takes too darn long to read anything over at TDIclub now, besides the array of posts that dont add anything the forum is darn slow to boot.
You still have to consider the speed that these engines already run in stock trim, its pretty much the upper reach of any diesel. What do the truck guys do to get the torque up at high rpm?
That's a good question, as I'm pretty sure the Cummins engines are direct-injected, and I know some of them are getting 5000+ rpm's out of them. If only it was as easy as the IDI's, just mod the govenor and away you go. ;) But at the same time, they arent using computer controlled pumps (with the exception of the newer ones) so there is probably some tricks they can do internally just like our IDI's to make that kind of powerband. How much work would it be to yank the ECU out of a Mk4 TDI and replace it with a mechanical pump and still have everything work? :twisted: Probaby more effort than it's worth. :P
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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I have a 1994 Dodge Cummins, bonestock ( for the moment ), the truck start to defuel around 2300 rpm. Most of guys add stronger governor sprint kit ( 3000 or 4000 rpm ). Only with this, and a new fuel plate, new d-valves, you can easily add up to 100hp. Add bigger injectors and raise the boost around 40psi and you`r good for a 350hp/700ftlbs and a new clutch.. :lol: This is my goal.
On cummins papers, it says that we don't cross 5000rpm, that the engine
will 'desintegrate'. I know that sled puller rev their around 5k, but not for a long time.
Marc/
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I agree. The only mechanical limit is the displacement, which can be increased with a bigger head/plunger. There is no mechanical governor and the advance and injected quantity are both controlled by software.
Someone I know is CNCing a custom timing cap for the TDI pump to physically allow more timing advance. Of course, software will be modified to take advantage of the new timing range. [/quote]
the cap is not what will limit the timing device; there's a sloted hole inside the pump that prevent the timing ring to rotate more than 18 degs. with the bigger plunger, this is the only mod available for the tdi pump.
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What was that pump head intended for? I can get 12mm pump heads fairly cheap. They're supposed to be for a cummins, but I don't see why they wouldn't fit.
The head im using is a direct swap. Cummins head dosen't fits. The place where the spring guide pins sit is not the same. I order them in Europe.
Marc/
For the sake of arguement, are the earlier VW VE pump heads dimensionally the same? As in would it be possible to swap a 10mm TDI pump head onto an IDI 9mm pump?
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For the sake of arguement, are the earlier VW VE pump heads dimensionally the same? As in would it be possible to swap a 10mm TDI pump head onto an IDI 9mm pump?
Not quite. I was told the the TDI plunger is slightly different at the base where it fits the camplate. It will work with late model 1.9TD ('95 and up) pumps that have the 20mm shaft but not with older pumps that have the 17mm driveshaft. Maybe with a camplate change they could be swapped.
Redrotors or Smog, feel free to correct me. I don't have very complete info since you guys won't share that parts catalog... :D
I'd like to get a larger plunger and head set up on an extra pump but all my spare 1.9 pumps are the 17mm type and I don't want to tear apart my only 20mm pump, it's bolted to my daily driver...
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[Not quite. I was told the the TDI plunger is slightly different at the base where it fits the camplate. It will work with late model 1.9TD ('95 and up) pumps that have the 20mm shaft but not with older pumps that have the 17mm driveshaft. Maybe with a camplate change they could be swapped. ...
only Redrotors got the catalogue :(
but please show me a 1.9td pump with a 20mm shaft; I never been able to see one of them; it look like another internet misinformation.
the TDI plunger or the td camplate need to be modified to use them together. it has been done before.
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Bruce, If your pump number is " NR 0 460 494 373 " or easier, you have the slotted pump pulley, to ajust the timing instead of moving the pump, the 10mm tdi head is bolt on. My friend run is 1.9TD with a 10mm pump that i built for him last year and he's driving his car real hard. no problem yet.
If it's not the case, the plunger won't sit in the camplate. You can enlarge the camplate seat with a die grinder but IMO it's not recommended.
Cheers,
Marc/
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I am wrong on the 20mm shaft, now that I think of it they take the same seal as all the other pumps, 17mm. I have changed them before. I apologize for the "misinformation". :D I'm thinking of the pump body diameter where it fits the bracket, the late model pump is larger and won't fit the older style bracket.
I do have a few other IDI pumps kicking around that do have 20mm shafts. The diesel kiki bosch licence pumps on the ford escort 2.0l diesel are 20mm, for what reason I have no idea. I have a couple of those, not very useful... They only have an 8mm plunger and they are reverse rotation.
Mine is a 97, and has the slotted pulley but I'd like to put together a complete pump from one of my spares (which are all the old style) and swap the whole thing rather than pull my pump and install the new head.
Marc, will the camplate from a late pump fit fit the earlier models? Maybe that would be the way to go. I don't do die grinder work. I like to machine it with precision or don't bother...
Do you guys (Luc or Marc) have any 10,11 or 12mm head/rotor sets for sale? I could be interested. :twisted:
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If I can come up with a sample, I can have the pump head manufactured.....just a thought.
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Bruce,
Yes, the camplate will fits on earlier pump. Unfortunatly, i don't have any 10,11,or 12mm in stock.. I'll let you know if i come up with one.
Cheers,
Marc/
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Hey Red ;) What do you think I am putting out with the 12mm and some .205's (.208 actual) and my evry turned on :D It feels quite substantial even with the auto, or should I say especially with the auto, as the thing shifts much fast than I ever could in my previous 5spds.
I would hazard a guess that as grossly overfueled as it is it is putting out north of 115WHP, but I wasn wondering if you'd have a better idea, or perhaps used the VAG-com to "dyno" your set up so I might have a ball park figure.
Thanks!
PS-I LOVE the POWER I highly recommend this mod to anyone who happens to have had their pump die on them like me, or has more money to burn on TDI upgrades ;)
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How high are you EGT's Slave2school? :?:
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I really couldn't tell you that, but...Based on what other people are doing with even more fueling, I doubt I am in any danger or hurting anything, especially since I don't tow a trailer or something with the evry on :) I would like to know though just for my own interest. I have it tuned so that without the evry on, the only time there is any visible black puff of smoke from the car is when it is cold, and with the evry on the is a small black wispy trail...anymore than that seems to make no difference to "power" but pursuades tailgaters to move on. I highly doubt that I am approaching the 900C limit, and I never hold my foot to the rug for more than 10 seconds or so (there isn't any need in the real world).
Maybe the best question would be...What do you thinkmy EGT's are running as I described above :)
The only people I hear of running into EGT problems are people like Beta with a Vanagon synchro vnt-17 RC3, nozzles, etc... I've got to think that even if I were towing a trailer my car is working less and fueling less.
fastforward.ca has featured a few vanagon conversions, latest is an auto and they say the EGT's are well under the max limit for the TDI turbo.
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Hi guys!
I am pretty new to diesel......
If it is a silly question, please tell me! :oops:
What is the rev limit on a diesel engine anyways?? Base on my understanding, if I rev the engine more than 4500rpm, it's pretty much pointless due to Diesel fuel itself need more time to combust itself...
In here, seems like 5000rpm is OK for a diesel too.... Is it OK to tell me what type of fuel are you guys using, and what type of treatment do you guys do??
Thanks
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hey super
the old 1.5 NA vw dieselengine had a max rev of 5600-5700 or so
the 1.6td's were around 51-5200,id rev it to 5400 though
the tdi engine is "done" at 4200 or so,and doesnt pull hard over that
ive "tested" quite a few of my na diesels max revs
you can brick the gas pedal all day in neutral+they will never blow,"technically",barring any mechanical problems
as long as the governor is working and the max revs arent turned up past specs
its fun to scare people by bricking the gas pedal for 4 or 5 seconds on an old beater
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Hey hillfolk'r
Nice to hear your reply!!
Just wonderin.. for higher rev, did you make more power too?? Or you just like the revin sound?? :P
For TDI (Turbo) seems like the Turbo do put a lot of limit on the engine... (Am I right?) If I put the bigger Turbo, will it help? (The Euro spec, crank out 150HP one at stock) VNT 22 or 20 Turbo??
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Sadly, a lack of content is pretty much a TDIClub theme these days, thats why you'll mostly find me here...
No kidding.. Seems like everybody just wants to complain about how biodiesel wrecked their engine or make some sort of a political statement. Geesh 8)
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Sadly, a lack of content is pretty much a TDIClub theme these days, thats why you'll mostly find me here...
No kidding.. Seems like everybody just wants to complain about how biodiesel wrecked their engine or make some sort of a political statement. Geesh 8)
haha i have about 10 posts on tdi club, i know i don't have a tdi, but seems like there is alot of non progressive people there. all they do is talk about vnts and chips and biodiesel
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I need to get a hold of GILES does any one have aphone # fro him. The man I sold my TDI M pickup too wants to have the 12mm pump rebuilt as it seized up or stopped working..he has a 1.6TD pump on it temp. now.. besides Giles any one you know of thsat is real good with the VW diesel pumps and th eTDI swaps ? that pump was a 1.6T TD pump with bosch 12mm Plunger from cummins 4bt
Thanks
Deo
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Deo whats up with your truck these days? Never heard much about the hy35 swap, and where the hell is Blake?
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Hey there.. been super busy .lately.. argh... My truckis sold to agood freind of mine ..but he is a older gentleman who is really into diesels,, be has a few cummins 5.9 swaps, a new dodge cummins and he used to have old street rod with a built up big duetz in it it was fast like 13 or 12 sec 1/4s any how hes learning about my trukck and the tdi m swap..its his first vw diesel let alone tdi.. he has had bad luck with the injection pumps not lasting long..i blew one before i sold it ..then i built one for him .he blew it up and now its running a stock 1.6Ltd pump so its slow.. he wants me to get a guy to rebuilt it and get some sort of warranty for it ha.. I think I'm getting in touch with Giles for the rebuild....as for me i bought a 2003 TDi swpa complete electronic and trans fro my 82 Jetta coupe.. i haven't started that projet yet but it shopuld be nice.., i just got my 220v into my garage..now i got to tidy the wiring and clean out teh crqp and then i can have my aircmprewssor and tig weld yeahhh.. ha.. I got another running 6v53 dd for my drag truck chassis ...so thats in the works too....blake moved back to ny ( 5 miles from me) from cleveland and just got a job doing diesel generator repair hes still driving his tdi m rabbit ..he is working on a hy35 what they machined a 6cm exhaust housing from a hx30 to replace the 9cm, ..it should be sick now.. when i ran teh hy35 band teh 9cm housing it swas nice in high rpm but it built no boost at low rpm ..the 6 vs 9 cm housing should lower the rpm teh boost start and really be sick..i plan on doing the same job to my hy35 if i can find a housing soon.. etc etc...i would need a custom chip to run it on the elctronic sw3ap though haha..
any thing else new with you?
Dinner is calling me i gotta go..
Later
Deo
\x/ Hillfolk!