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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: rodpaslow on August 18, 2014, 12:03:13 pm

Title: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 18, 2014, 12:03:13 pm
I have a quick question - I have above with a 2252 turbo in it, stock injectors with only 2-3 psi of boost under accel, no smoke at all.  I've turned the pump up as high as I can without it hanging.  Will moving up to .216 (I have in my possession) help the boost issue?

(pump is a bit of a hybrid, 1.9 case with LRover pump internals and head, vw valves from head to injector lines).

Thanks
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: vanbcguy on August 19, 2014, 10:51:59 am
What kind of EGTs are you seeing?  If you are smoke free then you probably have room for more fuel.  Is your LDA connected and working?

You can definitely go bigger on your nozzles.  I'm running .275s on my AHU M-TDI.

Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 19, 2014, 12:02:43 pm
I'm see egt's around 900-950°F, I can't feel it pulling hard at top end at all, and that's were I'd expect more with the 2252.  LDA is connected - I can't confirm if it's working - but if I'm only getting 2-3 lbs of boost it's not going to add much, if any.  I'm just not sure where to start. 

Will moving the throttle arm another position stop it from hanging so I can increase more on the fuel screw?  Will stock injectors put enough fuel through to actually create boost?  I think maybe put the .216's in and see if it helps as well?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 19, 2014, 12:05:43 pm
I've got a crappy boost gauge in it, I'm waiting for a VDO with kit.  Once it's installed I can get an accurate number.  I also have low oil pressure when warm-however another crappy gauge-changing to VDO as I have one in my other car I trust (0-80 psi gauge).

I checked aux shaft before I  put engine in car, and seemed tight, no movement.  Has anyone had issues with mains and rods being worn and causing oil pressure issues, or is it just the oil pump?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: bbob203 on August 19, 2014, 01:02:43 pm
Thats a massive turbo. I would get something bigger than .216.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 19, 2014, 02:33:06 pm
"Intermediate shaft bearings and/or the seal on the oil/vacuum pump drive shaft are common causes of low oil pressure." - from another post.

What does the oil/vacuum seal have to do with causes of low oil pressure.  Are we talking the seal between the pump housing o-ring to engine block?  Vane type pump in 1Z.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: vanbcguy on August 19, 2014, 04:29:51 pm
I'm see egt's around 900-950°F, I can't feel it pulling hard at top end at all, and that's were I'd expect more with the 2252.  LDA is connected - I can't confirm if it's working - but if I'm only getting 2-3 lbs of boost it's not going to add much, if any.  I'm just not sure where to start. 

Will moving the throttle arm another position stop it from hanging so I can increase more on the fuel screw?  Will stock injectors put enough fuel through to actually create boost?  I think maybe put the .216's in and see if it helps as well?

OK - so you still have room for more fuel with just the air you've got already.  Which is somewhat surprising given the low boost numbers you are seeing - this implies the pump isn't putting out all that it should especially if you have the fuel screw all the way in.  Larger nozzles might help a bit but you should be able to get your EGTs up over 1300F+ with stock nozzles and the 11mm Rover pump head.

I'd be a bit concerned that your pump isn't doing what it is supposed to personally.  Mixing parts between different pumps without some way of verifying the pump's operation afterwards is pretty tricky.  Given you have low EGTs and no smoke my feeling is that you have a fueling issue.

Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 19, 2014, 04:55:39 pm
I guess I need a bit of help with turning the fuel screw in.  Currently it's about where my 1.6 pump sits and if I floor it I can make a pretty big cloud behind me - so I think you are correct in your post-not enough fuel.

Is the proper procedure to undo the nut holding the throttle onto the spline, back it off a spline or two and turn up the fuel screw more so that it doesn't hang when the screw is only about half way in?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: sdubfid on August 19, 2014, 06:56:01 pm
is your wastegate sealing?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 20, 2014, 12:07:39 pm
It's a new turbo, so it should be, but I need to double check that.

I will be pulling the pan first to check my oil pump and bearings before checking that as the oiling issue must be fixed first...
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: libbydiesel on August 20, 2014, 12:13:14 pm
"Intermediate shaft bearings and/or the seal on the oil/vacuum pump drive shaft are common causes of low oil pressure." - from another post.

What does the oil/vacuum seal have to do with causes of low oil pressure.  Are we talking the seal between the pump housing o-ring to engine block?  Vane type pump in 1Z.

The seal between the oil pump and the vacuum pump has nothing to do with the block and is not an o-ring.  It is a seal that resides in the bottom of the oil pump gear and seals around the oil pump shaft.  The oil pump shaft is hollow and allows pressurized oil to flow up to the vac pump.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 20, 2014, 01:03:45 pm
So is this seal in the bottom of the oil pump replaceable? I imagine you have to goto VW if it is?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: libbydiesel on August 20, 2014, 03:19:28 pm
I typed that incorrectly.  It is in the bottom of the vacuum pump gear not the oil pump.  If you pull the vacuum pump out of the engine and look up into the gear you will see it. 
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 20, 2014, 03:49:11 pm
I found a good resource on vwvortex - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5129625-Diesel-Vacuum-pump-rotary-vane-type.

I think the oil pressure problem for me will be dealt with like they suggest.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 22, 2014, 11:59:44 am
two questions - can intermediate shaft bearings be changed with engine in car and where to buy a tool to change them.?

Just looking into this if the oil pressure doesn't improve after pulling pan and changing pump, check vac pump seals, etc.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: vanbcguy on August 22, 2014, 12:14:38 pm
The problem with doing the bearings with the engine in the car is there is not enough clearance to remove the shaft without cutting a hole in the inner fender.  If you don't mind doing that then yes, they can be done in the car.  I'd yank it though myself - it's not THAT hard.  You need to pull the t-belt, vac pump, oil pan to do it so you're already taking the engine half apart.

There's some pictures on here showing the home made tools people have made - usually they involve grinding down a large pipe cap to the correct size and using some threaded rod to drag it through.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 22, 2014, 12:53:12 pm
Yeah, might have to remove it.  Sounds like a tool would be easy to make.

Are the bearings same size as a mk2?  I can Likely find that in bently man?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: vanbcguy on August 22, 2014, 01:48:14 pm
I BELIEVE the bearings are the same on all the blocks that have IM shafts, but someone who has more experience should chime in...
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: sdubfid on August 22, 2014, 02:33:14 pm
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4562442&postcount=170
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: 410 on August 22, 2014, 07:54:54 pm
I like the idea of relocating the oil hole position but I would put the oil hole closer to 6 O clock position instead of 4-5.  I would like as much bearing surface as possible in the high thrust area.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 26, 2014, 11:54:43 am
I started by installing the proper VDO gauges yesterday (never buy el-cheap-o).  Pressure is not as bad as first seen with bad gauges.  At full temp ~208°F oil temp, 180° evans coolant temp-after highway run; oil pressure at idle is above 15 psi and highway speed (not sure of RPM yet- waiting for gauge) ~30 psi.  Approximately 60 should be 2200-2300 rpm with this CTN tranny.

I think I'm still going to pull the pan and vacuum pump and change oil pump and make sure (I bought one thinking major problems with oil pressure) all initial oil feed to the block is good.  I'll post if I see any increase in pressure.

After that - to tackle fueling issues...need to back off throttle position and turn up fuel screw some more.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: libbydiesel on August 26, 2014, 12:29:14 pm
I like the idea of relocating the oil hole position but I would put the oil hole closer to 6 O clock position instead of 4-5.  I would like as much bearing surface as possible in the high thrust area.

That's an interesting IM shaft bearing mod.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 26, 2014, 03:20:40 pm
Just for giggles, what would happen if you made the aux shaft pulley smaller - you may need a different timing belt, but you could certainly get a bit more oil pressure that way -right?  Less leverage on bearing too?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 27, 2014, 11:53:25 am
My old MK2 16v has a smaller pulley on intermediate shaft that was a kit to change ABA to a 16V and all it does is run the oil pump now as the distributor moves to the head with a old 16v.

Even at say 5200 rpm in a TDI, I got thinking that's only about 2600 rpm the pump is running at - aren't gear pumps good up to 3000 or a bit better?   I work at a machine shop - might invest in a prototype pulley that would increase oil pump 20% or so.  Is the gear drive that drives the vacuum pump 1:1?

Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on August 29, 2014, 12:40:47 pm
I bought new rod bolts and replace the rod bearing and I'd say three of them showed signs of wear on the upper half of the bearing.  Good time to change them.  I haven't started it back up yet, to see if there's any improvement in pressure.

Is there a way to change the main bearings - I see the two end caps are extremely close to the seal end plates.   Can you use a crow-foot to loosen them, but you need to be on the bolt to torque them properly to put them back on.  Will a good quality socket machined very thin fit?

Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: libbydiesel on August 29, 2014, 03:07:05 pm
I have a socket that is ground thin on one side and undoes those bolts.  Also, a crowfoot will give correct torque if you install it on the torque wrench so that it is at a 90 degree angle.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 02, 2014, 11:54:12 am
Now to tackle the fueling problem.  I still have a hanging idle unless I bring it down with the clutch in a gear.  I will back off the throttle position to another spline or two and see if I can increase the fuel screw some more so I get at least a bit of smoke and see if the turbo will do it's thing.  I might be looking for another if this doesn't help. 

I wanted a bigger turbo to start pulling hard about 3000 rpm,  I'm hoping the 2252 isn't too big as suggested earlier in this post....
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 02, 2014, 04:52:46 pm
So if I read right - to tackle the fueling - back off the throttle as far as reasonable (will likely stop against housing), re-attach the spline to throttle at that point.  Turn the fuel screw up so the engine will just run in a very slow idle. 

Turn the idle screw on the side of the pump to the correct idle speed.  Correct?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 10, 2014, 11:12:58 am
I turned the injector pump fueling up about 1 turn last night by moving it one spline.  Is there a limit to how far I can go?  I will likely move it another one spine tonight before I take it out and see if that's helped with fueling.  I imagine anything over 1000°F (~550°C) will tell me if the pump is actually increasing the fuel.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 26, 2014, 05:02:30 pm
I have the fuel turned up quite a bit now and with my big turbo I'm just starting to get a lb or so of boost with egt climbing fast with the pedal at full to about 1100 -1200°F.  I might / most likely have to go to a smaller turbo...

I've read a few posts about hanging idle.  Since I've turned fuel up it doesn't shut down right away with the key off and on the idle will hang once up to full eng temp at about 1500 or so rpm, for half a minute or so and then drop back to idle.  My idle is around 800 rpm.  Is that part of the problem the idle's to low?
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 29, 2014, 11:49:16 am
I thought I'd add a couple notes

pulses out of VSS for MK3 - this is a Can 99 car is 6000 for 1 mile.

Ohms for fuel gauge is 33 at full, around 250-260 empty.

For the W- rotor has 12 lobes and with pulley sizes works out to around 18 pulses for setting the VDO tach I have.

I have looked for stuff like this on this site and others and it's always hard to find.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 29, 2014, 11:51:57 am
One more thing - a 2252 turbo is to big for a 1.9 - I only have stock injectors as a qualifying statement.  At full fueling I get 5 psi boost at most.  I'm looking for a 2052 with a  wastegate, to test next...
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: vanbcguy on September 29, 2014, 12:01:26 pm
When I was still thinking of going wastegate the GT2056 was seeming like a good option.  The compressor map fits the engine a little better than the 2052 variants, especially if you are planning on running higher than stock boost.
Title: Re: 1Z Mtdi Boost
Post by: rodpaslow on September 30, 2014, 11:54:57 am
The 55 trim .53 ar looks better than the 2052.  thanks

definitely looking for higher than stock boost - T25 flange is currently on the car so the 2056 is just a bolt on - outlet will need a bit of fabing.