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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: vic003 on February 18, 2016, 11:12:26 am

Title: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vic003 on February 18, 2016, 11:12:26 am
Hi guys!

I'm French and had to use the french section but it's a little bit dead now...

So excuse my english language!

I drove a Seat TDI for 2 years, and now I just buy et golf 2 and mounted a MTDI with a pump that I made myself.

The first had problems with the iddle but ran good with enough power, it was fun!

I made a new one to correct my iddle problem and put new components in!

But I have now another problem, the iddle is good it start very well without pushing the pedal. Now the engine with full throttle don't go over 2000/2500 RPM.

I use a 17mm shaft pump from 1.6TD, cam plate and head from TDI, timing piston and spring from 1.9TD with the regulator, lever modified in 10mm and throttle lever modified in 17mm. I also put a longer pin on the governor piston.

So why could my engine don't go in high RPM?
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: libbydiesel on February 18, 2016, 09:44:26 pm
Most likely there is an issue with the assembly of the governor spring capsule.  Possibly the control lever assembly is bent/damaged/indexed to the governor springs incorrectly.  Maybe the accelerator to shaft orientation is incorrect or max fuel screw is way off.  The accelerator pedal/cable could be failing.  The accelerator cable clip that sets its position on the pump could have fallen out. 
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vic003 on February 19, 2016, 12:59:49 pm
Most likely there is an issue with the assembly of the governor spring capsule.  Possibly the control lever assembly is bent/damaged/indexed to the governor springs incorrectly.  Maybe the accelerator to shaft orientation is incorrect or max fuel screw is way off.  The accelerator pedal/cable could be failing.  The accelerator cable clip that sets its position on the pump could have fallen out. 

Thanks for your answer.

What is the thing you name governor? The shaft with the 2 springs that go on the control lever?

All the part of the acceleration control are good, no damage since last time and it worked great.

It's a lot better with the change of the pin, I'll upload a pci to show, I don't know the name!

Now I've a problem with the timing piston and spring, doesn't work well, I'll replace it tomorrow.

How do you name this part:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/17/13/65/36/img_2010.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/view/17136536/80)
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vic003 on February 20, 2016, 07:12:02 pm
So I found the problem, it was the primary pump (feed pump) that causes all my troubles, I don't know why!
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vanbcguy on February 20, 2016, 07:38:39 pm
The VE pumps pass a ton of fuel through to the return - lots of smaller feed pumps just can't keep up with the flow requirements especially at higher RPMs.

Glad you found the cause! If you choose to run a lift pump make sure whatever you run will pass fuel even when it isn't operating. I have a Facet Posiflow lift pump on my Mk3 - it's supposed to flow around 40 GPH I think, plus the IP can draw fuel through it fine even when it is switched off.

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Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vic003 on February 22, 2016, 05:27:15 pm
I think I wasn't really clear! I don't use lift pump before IP. I'll do some pics and explain you tomorrow, I'm not sure to find good words to explain you!
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vanbcguy on February 22, 2016, 07:20:30 pm
Oh you mean the feed pump IN the IP?

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Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: ORCoaster on February 23, 2016, 07:53:58 pm
As in bad Vane pump section? 
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vic003 on March 14, 2016, 06:34:58 pm
Hi guy's I'm sorry for the late answer, I was so buisy in my job, my VW was in stanby!

To answer, yes it was the feed pump in the PI, these pices seem to be appaired, and I took them in another PI.

Now I try to fine tune of the PI, but I don't find tuning to limit smoke at low RPM when turbo don't charge. I've a more agressive LDA cone 75 from Peugeot and I don't have the max flow for my 0.260 nozzles. I try to have the max flow with 1.7 bar (approx 25psi) on my K24.
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vanbcguy on March 15, 2016, 02:20:50 am
Reduce the fueling via the main fuel screw and increase the fueling added by the LDA if you are getting smoke off boost.

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Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vic003 on April 05, 2016, 01:25:08 pm
Hi, I know that, but there is just a little problem I don't find.

It seems like on boost fueling is good, so if I reduce the main fuel screw I will reduce on boost too.

My LDA is at the max, and I changed it for a number 75, much agressive, more fuel at full boost. I searched a LDA that have the biggest range of fueling, and this one seems perfect, good angle of the cone.
I think I can make a bit more aggressive LDA but I can't find one.
Title: Re: MTDI low RPM
Post by: vic003 on April 09, 2016, 07:37:15 pm
Hi guys,

I drove with my MTDI tonight, after tune my LDA, I put it at the less aggressive part of the cone.

I have what I want, no smoke at low RPM off boost, but I'm to the max of the LDA cone on boost and no smoke at 1.1 bars (16 psi). But I want to put my K24 at 25 psi, and I don't know how I can have more fuel on boost with no smoke off boost as I already use 100% of my LDA cone without any smoke...
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on April 12, 2016, 10:52:29 am
There are more aggressive LDA pins available than the VW one; lots early Cummins guys have VE pumps and run very high boost.  You're also saying you have the pin on the 'less aggressive' part of the cone - you can increase the preload on the LDA spring which will delay the LDA action until higher boost levels and rotate to a more aggressive position on the pin.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on April 14, 2016, 06:49:08 pm
Ok thank you for the answer.

The lda I'm runing is the most agressive one I can find in France, it comes from a Peugeot and is number 75. I can't find cummins parts here, or it is very rare. Maybe someone can find me the part number or something like this I could find on eBay from US or maybe UK.
For the agressive side of the LDA, the angle of the cone doesn't change, and what I need is more angle to have a bigger movement of  the LDA.
I agree with you on the fact I must change the preload of the spring as I made, but in my mind the problem is the same, if I want more fuel on the max of the LDA I must screw the main fuel isn't it? And if I do that I get the fueling I need for my boost but lot of smoke off boost, it's very annoying in France, as smoking cars are scapegoats here...
Do your mtdi smoke at full throttle in low rpm when your are runing for approx 150 WHP?
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on April 15, 2016, 04:01:43 pm
With the VW pins anyhow the angle of the cone definitely does change as you rotate the pin, it is quite a bit different from one side to the other. I'd imagine the Peugeot pin is the same story. The Cummins pins I'm talking about are performance aftermarket parts so you probably will never find them in a vehicle.  Dieselmekken makes something similar on the European side... See the attached image.  There was a French seller on the VWDiesel.net Facebook group a while ago selling them too.

The LDA and fuel screw operate independently (though they are of course related).  The LDA can open up more than it is currently with your existing fuel screw setting - it can add more fuel at full boost than you are right now with a more aggressive pin.  Set up the fuel screw so you are just below smoking with the LDA disconnected then set the LDA up, you'll probably find you need to back it off!
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on April 25, 2016, 07:20:21 pm
Thank you a lot for your answer.

I'm currently on holiday so far away of my car, and I project to travel to Ireland for a month or more, so the project will be in stand by.

I'll work on a presentation of my car when I'll be back home, so probably next week.

For you, I can find a tune with no smoke off boost with a boost of 25 psi and nice fueling on boost, that's right? I owned a TDI before with electrical pump, I made my own progs with a GT2052V, and it was way more easy to control smokes!
But I made the choice of a simple and more reactive system, so the MTDI was the good choice. But to find fine tuning it's a bit more toughy but a nice challenge!

The fuel pines you talk to me are those one? http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html (ftp://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html)
The one I saw are really price, approx 150 bucks the part, so I'll probably to made one myself with my lace and a carbide milling tool a homemade heat treatment. It won't be easy to make it a precise shape but it's costless!

If you have good adress for aftermarket parts at low price in US or Canada it would be fine, I've family in Vancouver so I can ship parts to them and see after.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on April 25, 2016, 11:21:25 pm
I'm in Vancouver too. :-)

Yeah the prices I've seen those pins going for is a bit absurd as far as I'm concerned, though the stock Bosch ones aren't exactly easy to come across new. Seems like they should be more straightforward but I guess the combination of the specific diameter and the threading aren't the easiest in the world.

It will be hard to make a 25 PSI tune be COMPLETELY smoke free. You can make it fairly civilized but with the pedal to the floor it's probably always going to have some smoke until the turbo spools up. The LDA is meant as a pollution control device and has its limits. However you should be able to make your car not smoke under normal circumstances. Since there's nothing reacting to actual air mass the "tune" you set up with the pump will make more or less smoke depending on the weather, temperature, altitude, etc.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on May 04, 2016, 04:01:37 am
Yes I saw that, that's I talked about this. It would be nice to meet you when I go back there. It's a very nice area.

Si I worked on my new fuel pin yesterday, I have to grind it now, but the diameter and surface of my new one is good.
I love my old lace, it's magical!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/173cb4e5b3e8445b8f8b3608c0bd9466.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/929c3204417951e907af6774f368948d.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on May 04, 2016, 10:54:51 am
So I finished my new fuel pin, say me what you think about it.

Here the shape of the pin

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/405c83404fe302f8683302237ceb4e1d.jpg)

Some hand work to get a good RA

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/1312b9f3c7438a7956d00153584d91ec.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/a3372b7faddf82884004b44d1c33a006.jpg)

Final shape

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/0798dd1c297db0d9e51fd3eaead8bde3.jpg)

And now the piece get heat treaded with my home made fournace. Due to the high level of carbone it's like a surface cementation

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/87da65ce27cec9ca03ec9e6329e2dd8e.jpg)

Oil cooling

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/e5cfdc5e9b6080e2feb94900b60ff1e0.jpg)

Finish!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/43b9df766d18b1af2f8a0ce578b4f8e9.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on May 04, 2016, 11:07:34 am
As you have no adjustment with that pin, you may need to swap quite a few springs to find a good match.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on May 04, 2016, 11:24:18 am
I just try, very very powerfull with moderate smoke, I'm happy, it's much better than my former #75.  I think I will need a stronger spring, it just smoke when turbo is loading.
Next step I will try to increase the  working range of the LDA with a longer lever!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on May 18, 2016, 03:31:47 pm
Hi guys, here are some new pics just for you!
I installed an oil cooler with a thermostatic sandwich plate that was mount on my old Seat.
I also decided to put some plastidip on my turbo piping.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160518/0a540d43a254ccf6dcfd847f1868950b.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160518/b1fc1378409a0252b7c7ddf07766daa8.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160518/f3c669a74929443db05fa2e680707168.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on May 22, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Here is my 63mm (2,5") home made downpipe :
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160522/7719c6e5de8467cec81e3f8b4a75b940.jpg)
Do someone know if I need a support or something like this to avoud stress on manifold and turbo?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 11, 2016, 02:14:07 am
Is there someone here or everybody died?

I found a new pump with 20mm shaft but it is a small snout. I saw Tintin mounted it with spacer on the axis, but instead doing that what do you think putting a longer  shaft with the correct offset?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: theman53 on June 11, 2016, 10:29:20 am
I don't know what you are asking on the shaft. I have not died, just don't respond much.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 11, 2016, 01:02:22 pm
If you have a longer 20mm shaft from an mechanical pump (e.g. Land Rover) you can fit it into a pump case with the shorter snout (e.g. cummins).  It will work fine.  I have done exactly that.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 11, 2016, 01:07:09 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160611/a85c4c0e31446fa764d3b34a1492fcd4.jpg)

So, I have this pump and I want to put in this longer shaft, it would get out 13mm more. But idk if the brass bushings would love.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 11, 2016, 01:27:54 pm
Ok that's what I talked about Libby. I think the bushings will be grind faster.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 11, 2016, 01:37:13 pm
Another question, I noticed some radial play on the mainshaft, but I can't find brass bushings for 20mm shafts, only for 17.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 11, 2016, 08:38:16 pm
I understand your concern and in my experience it is a non-issue.  I've run several Cummins pumps with the short snout and have not seen an issue.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 12, 2016, 03:03:20 pm
Thank you a lot, I'll do that.

Another question, I heard the rev limiter on Iveco pump is set to 3800 rpm how can I adjust it?
Is this the lenght of this part? (I don't know the english name)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160612/89a0c5f2a0c2426ab56799ec6722275d.jpg)

Or this control lever?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160612/1ba480e3d8bd182ebe1debadb337909d.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 12, 2016, 06:02:04 pm
It's not the first one. 

The second lever length has some effect, but the governor RPM is really controlled by the rate of the spring.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 12, 2016, 06:25:06 pm
Ok, that's what I thought. I'll put the control lever of my actual pump, a modified IDI lever, I don't have any thing for different tunings and I never saw a lever like this which is just a spring.
Which effect has the lenght of the pin on the first pic? I think the one that is actually installed in my first pump is shorter, it only limit the fuel flow?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 12, 2016, 08:51:06 pm
I believe the pin in the first pic controls the load dependent timing advance.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 14, 2016, 03:16:15 pm
Ready for rebuild!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160614/c60975be5d17371a2322e27c2ee23bc6.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: theman53 on June 15, 2016, 08:57:17 am
looks like it has at least 20 minutes of cleaning before it is ready.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 15, 2016, 09:26:38 am
Lol I hate working on dirty pumps so I took my toothbrush with some WD40. But I want to keep the pump as an old pump, don't want a bling bling one 😂

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 23, 2016, 02:56:52 pm
Hi guys, I would show you my new timing belt!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160623/bb39c5a43abbae17d5819357b1630e6e.jpg)

I just hate the ahu timing belt, I don't find them really strong for a tdi engine with 11mm head.
So I took a ALH new version belt with 141 teeth, that I mounted with an idler pulley off a c6 v6 HDI. I think it would be better.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 03:07:27 pm
1.6TD intake manifold?  What did you do about the mismatch?
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 23, 2016, 03:10:03 pm
Yep it's a 1.6 manifold, I got the engine with it but it will be next upgrade, when I'll be searching for more hp!
What do you call mismatch?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 05:18:12 pm
The intake ports are the wrong shape. 
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 23, 2016, 07:48:26 pm
Oh *** thank to say me that. I bought the car with the tdi in but with a bad pump, 1.6 gearbox etc. I never removed the intake manifold...
Now you say that I will see that. It's just annoying as I rebuild my turbo not long ago.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 08:01:05 pm
You can use an AAZ manifold instead.  The ports will then match and the size/shape is almost exactly the same.  You can bolt on the top elbow from your 1.6TD manifold.  The only real difference (other than the proper port shape) is that the AAZ manifold does not have the extra (unnecessary) blow-off valve. 
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on June 24, 2016, 01:03:05 pm
Does the timing belt cover still fit with that larger roller?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 26, 2016, 08:13:18 pm
Hum I don't know, I didn't tried yet. Will see and if no I will cut it a little bit.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 28, 2016, 11:01:34 pm
Thank you guys, I found a AAZ manifold for free, a guy gave me one for changing the injection pump of his mk2!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on June 29, 2016, 11:21:24 am
Ok, new manifold in place!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160629/be1a8173aadcfd3b99ecfc3fa1bb95e4.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on July 01, 2016, 06:13:44 pm
Guys, what should I use for initial timing with this pump and 11mm head?
I'm set it actually at 1mm and start well, can I have more economy with different setting?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on July 02, 2016, 12:43:34 pm
Your pump is made from bits; there's not really a set point. You'll have to play a bit and see what works best!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on July 02, 2016, 03:32:43 pm
I agree.  Considering the parts used, short of having a pulse adapter and strobe, your guess is as good as anyone's.  My guess is that it will run best somewhere between 0.95mm and 1.55mm of plunger lift...
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on July 02, 2016, 06:55:28 pm
Lol I just wanted to have your opinions too and that's good.
French guys always say to set at 1mm regardless the parts you run in your pump.
So I first started with 1mm and will see for improvement, just I saw 1,54mm for range 300 tdi and found that high!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on July 02, 2016, 07:21:00 pm
In my experience building and tuning quite a few different pumps, assuming the dynamic advance is functioning properly they run best (universally) with the actual start of injection set to 12° BTDC.  The plunger lift measurement for achieving a start of injection at 12° BTDC can vary widely depending on which camplate, injectors, plunger head assembly, and delivery valves are used.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on July 06, 2016, 10:07:52 am
Ok must try to get a strobe to correctly tune this pump.
Yesterday I fit my timing belt cover, and a little modification was made by heat and reshaping it but it's good!
But I saw another problem, I have an exhaustive leak between manifold and turbo. I now there is no gasket existing for k24, maybe you have a solution ?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on July 06, 2016, 10:44:39 am
I use a smear of Permatex Ultra Copper between the turbo and manifold.  If the surfaces are bad, I lap them beforehand. 
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on July 12, 2016, 05:09:28 pm
Found the problem! It was a little shock on the turbo flange  that created excess of thickness on the flange.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160712/a2d943a6c22b000bb3f6d462a7cba311.jpg)

Other thing, I made a test run sunday, drove 30 minutes and found the pump temp very hot, is this normal?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on August 25, 2016, 06:42:01 pm
Hi mates!

Approx 2 months later, the MTDI runs well, I use it as my daily to see reliability. So now plan is to imprive tuning, turbo is runing approx 25 psi,and I'm still lean in my air/fuel ratio with no smoke and approx 150hp, seems good :)
I'll increase slightly fuel too see when it begin to smoke, and I have a question about 2.5TDI pumps from ducato, I think they are almost same then Landy 300tdi pumps.

In which way must I go to adjust advance curve? In my opinion the spring is softer then one for TDI due to the lower RPM limit. Am I good?

Next week little golf will get bling bling rims, very originals parts, wait for pics!
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: libbydiesel on August 25, 2016, 07:26:34 pm
If the advance spring is softer the advance will occur faster.  You may get significant nailing at mid or high rpms with increased advance. 
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on August 26, 2016, 02:09:52 am
Yup I know that, but am I right when I think that 300tdi and Ducato pumps have softer spring then needed?
I don't know how is the advance curve on these engines but I know the tdi one very well.
For me it's the harder point when tuning a mTdi, with electronique I just had to put the value I wanted on Winols!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on August 29, 2016, 03:15:32 am
There's two parts to it - the spring and the shim(s). The shims add preload which delays advance from starting. The stiffness of the springs control the curve. A soft spring with lots of preload will behave differently than a stiff spring with little preload - the soft spring with preload will delay starting advance then add it on quickly while the stiff spring will add advance more progressively but may not have as much total advance.

Yes, you are correct that the stiffer the spring the later the advance. I'd wager the springs are probably stiffer than needed if anything though - advance causes NOx which is controlled in most markets. The ideal advance curve for optimal performance is not the same as the ideal curve for minimal NOx production.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on August 29, 2016, 06:43:20 pm
Thank you for your answer, the app didn't notified it so I didn't saw it earlier!
Ok, that's what I thought, so will try TDI spring with more shims, then less timing advance at low rpm to help turbo charging and more advance at high rpm to improve fuel combustion and had high boost fuel. Do you think it's the good start or should I try a stiffer spring?
I should invest in a spring hardness measurment tool.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on August 29, 2016, 06:44:45 pm
And here are my new little rims I love :)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160829/523197ef1b3747242653707e214a0398.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160829/c9b81d767b4e9c4bdea588f859578d72.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160829/b418548268cc06185999440f77a7fd32.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on August 29, 2016, 06:53:12 pm
The TDI spring is pretty soft from what I understand; the electronic pumps regulate advance via a valve rather than relying on case pressure. I think the spring will allow full travel of the timing piston pretty quickly; the ECU is supposed to be able to ask the pump for whatever it wants rather than relying on RPM. Libby is probably right in saying that it will cause excessive advance at midrange RPMs. Worth trying and seeing though!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on August 29, 2016, 07:05:48 pm
Hum, I read that TDI spring is too soft too, but I don't think I have better options currently.
The timing on electronic controlled pump is not so simple as pump internal pressure has à great effect too, but it's easier too control with vagcom.
In my choice of springs, I have TDI, Renault dti (wich is basically a TDI with 11mm head) wich is stiffer, and after commons TD spring, I don't know with which one begin!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on August 29, 2016, 11:18:05 pm
I'd be going for the Renault spring personally. It probably was being used on an engine with a similar RPM range.

The TD timing cover is much shorter than the TDI one so the TD spring will be too short too.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on September 04, 2016, 12:01:46 am
Thanks, sounds good, I must try the hardness of the différents spring.
The tdi spring isn't a good choice?
The problem for the Renault is that is used in an electronic pump with n108 too.
Second problem, I have all my pump parts in a box and I don't know which one it is. Do you know the lenght of the Tdi spring please?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on September 04, 2016, 02:58:12 pm
Ah gotcha. Didn't realize the Renault pump was electronic too.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on September 04, 2016, 04:26:36 pm
Yes but the spring hardness isn't the same than tdi one.
Actually I run with the Iveco one but designed for 2.5L low rpm engine.
What can I find in mechanical and adapted for same displacement engine?
In Europe I know the Fiat croma which is 2.0l tdim but nothing else in my mind.
And is there a shop where I can buy only the advance spring? I don't have money to buy complete pumps and hard to find em.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on September 04, 2016, 04:31:24 pm
Well I can tell you my LR pump with its stock spring is working fine for me. There is a little clatter at medium speed which I might be able to tune out with a shim but it really isn't a problem. The Rover engine was set up to go to 4500 RPM with the same style of injectors, seems to work fine.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on October 03, 2016, 10:33:03 am
Hi! It's been a while!
I got a new job so my project got slow down as I'm at home only the week-ends.
As you sayed, the rover engine was set up to go to 4500rpm, my pump is for an engine wich run max 4000rpm so I think the timing doesn't match perfectly with TDI.
You didn't change anything on the timing of your LR pump? I know there are some hp to gain with the timing, it was an important mapping job on e-tdi.
So I still searching for the perfect spring and piston, maybe fiat 2L tdid.

I had to change my direction boots yesterday and I saw the frame part that link the 2 wheels together and support engine (sorry don't know english name) were bended and full of rust, so it's the job for saturday and I'm searching for an anti sway bar as all is removed!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on October 05, 2016, 02:24:48 am
E-tdi also had much more effort put in to keep NOx levels down. Advanced timing = NOx. The LR pump comes from a light truck application which has much higher limits, so they were able to use more advance in the first place.

I talked to Goran (Dieselmekken) about my goals and told him what pump I was using. He didn't seem to think the advance would be a problem 

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on October 05, 2016, 03:02:04 am
Ok, good to know. So I think I'll go for Landy pump and try with the internals in my pump. Do you know the diff between 200 and 300 tdi pumps?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on October 06, 2016, 04:34:49 am
From what I've read I believe the 200 pump comes with a more aggressive camplate. They both have an 11mm head. The 200TDI pump probably has a little more performance potential but it isn't as capable of higher RPMs. Both will run a VW TDI engine/injectors well up to 4500+ RPM; if you need more than that then you probably should be talking to a pump builder anyhow.The 300TDI pump seems to have a "smoother" camplate, probably for reduced NOx levels and less cabin noise. Both are bonuses in my book, provided the vehicle will do what I'm asking of it.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on October 11, 2016, 03:53:28 am
Thanks for these infos!

Some pics of the week-end:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161011/adb4ff5f9bfdc0642fd9041629758136.jpg)
New subframe, reinforced and with anti roll bar.

And a gift for my little car:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161011/c79d8dbcc07e27d3e765211f80d8d7a7.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161011/44484860360f6c9c801b6defc585d487.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161011/471e30e7a429d9a835c88bccb467ef23.jpg)

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on October 23, 2016, 06:26:47 am
Ok, I still have a tuning and optimisation problem.
I actually run 25-26psi, light black smoke when full boost so I use all the o2 but the power output is low, I estimate 150 or 160 at the crank, low for 25 psi with k24, don't you think?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on October 23, 2016, 02:50:56 pm
K24 @ 25 PSI is probably at best 60% efficient meaning 40% of the energy put in to it by the turbine is just making heat. What is your intercooler like? Do you have any way of measuring intake air temperature?

The worse the efficiency of the turbo the more restriction it needs to put on the exhaust to make the same pressure ratio too.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on October 23, 2016, 04:33:54 pm
The intercooler I use is an eBay one, 410x155x65mm the standard size.
Unfortunately I can't measure intake temp, do you have a good Idea of temp sensor like this?
But the fmic I use is approx the same I used before and I always had good temps.
Of this is the turbo I'll get faster with a holset one. But in my head k24 could do lot better than 160hp.


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Title: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: deepgrooves74 on October 23, 2016, 06:08:55 pm
What about possibly thinking of running A water methanol mixture? Injecting that just before the intake manifold, and maybe just before the intercooler?

You could also get a gauge that has two readouts on it pre-and post intercooler temperatures. That would tell you whether or not you were efficiently cooling the charge...

Then also ultimately and EGT gauge. I assume you have to have one of those already?

You have to forgive me if this is a stupid idea I haven't done this myself, but I have read things that showed good promise.


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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on October 24, 2016, 06:47:42 pm
Auber Instruments have some reasonably inexpensive temperature probes that can be used for intake air temperature. It's a difficult thing to measure if you aren't doing it "live".

Remember the K24 shipped on engines putting out 68 HP and went in to production over 30 years ago. You're asking it to produce 2.5x the airflow it was doing in its stock application. Sometimes a little less boost will actually provide a little more power if the turbo is just generating a ton of heat and restricting the exhaust.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on November 14, 2016, 05:08:17 am
Hi guys, I'm back with relatively bad news!

So first, to answer you deepgrooves, the water-methanol injection seems good, but I would think about it only with a completely tuned engine, with a good reliability and nice power output. I didn't find the good tune already, so it's not a good idea to think about that now!

Let's talk about the K24, we won't have do talk about it anymore as he died tomorrow! On saturday, I drove back home, and the intake piping popped out on a hard acceleration, I think the turbo didn't love that instantly RPM increase...
Yesterday, on a hard acceleration too, I heard a big whistling noise with low power, thought about intake again but nothing, I think K24 has died!
Next week-end I'll check it, I've just buy a rebuild kit so I will make that tentatively cause I'm thinking about a Holset one! :D
I contacted Alcaid that advised me to go for a HE200WG, it's probably my next turbo, the only problem is that I didn't want to change mine so soon and it's a little expense I didn't plan!

Two weeks ago I bought a new car, so the golf is in stand by as I have a new toy! I took a Seat Leon Cupra, with the amazing engine of the new S3, the 2l TSI with 280hp. The only problem of this car is that contrary to the S3 and Golf 7R it's not a AWD, it's lighter and more reactive, ok but tires have troubles to transmit power to the ground!!
I'm thinking about next upgrade on it, bigger Alu FMIC, 200 cells cata and chiptuning, power will grow to 380hp and 500NM torque (approx 370ft/lb), this engine is a beast!

I just need to get money!
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on November 15, 2016, 07:29:54 am
Regardind this, it was maybe the reason I had poor power output with black smoke, the turbo wasn't in good shape I think!

When I see the flow map of the k24 it's approx 20-23lbs/mn so it will do a 160-180 bhp, maybe mine wasn't capable to give more then 20lbs/min.

But now doesn't matter anymore as the new one will be 31lbs/min with a faster spool than K24!   8)
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on November 16, 2016, 02:54:50 am
Sounds like fun!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on November 16, 2016, 04:08:57 am
That could be fun yeah!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on November 19, 2016, 03:12:55 pm
Hey, just some infos of my golf!
I just put my k24 off and here is what I found

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161119/df15c6d7d44a5a14de0a9c9cc286d441.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161119/86bfad737defccb38b8eed55bf4c610d.jpg)

He's dead, but i had spare one with turbine dead and rebuild kit so I made a new until I get my k24.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vanbcguy on November 19, 2016, 03:15:00 pm
Ha. Yeah that isn't a happy turbo.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on November 19, 2016, 04:19:42 pm
Lol he has seen better days! But now it's brand new and will be great until holset is here!
New holset will be happy running at 30 psi!
The thing that's weird, I always had Garrett turbos before, and the the kkk had no shaft play compared to them, I still don't understand how it happened, but all compressor parts were worn, from wheel to backplate!
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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: damac on November 19, 2016, 10:49:53 pm
how much was the holset turbo?

what injectors are you using?

i got an alh motor i want to make mtdi and i have rover 300 pump i want to leave stock.  i want to start fresh with nice parts but just want bang for buck performance whatever that is, not looking to make a race car but i want to get good mileage.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on November 20, 2016, 06:07:07 am
Hi damac,

Holset turbos he200 series are 650 USD inc. shipping from Alcais.
For the nozzles I'm running, these are french one from DSS 0.260 but probably want to go bigger in future.
In this configuration, with a 300tdi pump you can hope have 200 crank hp with just a modified LDA fuel cone.
I highly recommand to go with a stage 2 or 3 clutch, mine is XTD, not the best but do the job for the price!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on December 02, 2016, 01:41:21 pm
Today is a great day! Holset is here!!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161202/1c135eba45a1b20541cc0c1b39795491.jpg)

Very good quality abd shipping was very fast, Alcaid is top!
The only problem I have, he said me holset has T25 flange, so I bought a new t25 manifold, but my holset came with T3 flange...
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161202/bbce63ea27c9cbb9510df7c8dd3ad807.jpg)

So I refilled the drills on the manifold with inconel and I would try to re drill like a t3 flange.
Flanges are the same for T25 and T3 manifolds from TA, the only differences is drilling. Hope it would work.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on December 07, 2016, 03:59:12 am
Hum, there isn't a plenty of room between firewall and turbo!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161207/096811357fdd98733913a1ae58f934eb.jpg)
This week-end I'll get my vband and my t3 flange gasket, so I'll begin to build my new downpipe and properly fit turbo on manifold.
The next steps will be the adaptation of the intake piping and build a bracket to support the turbo on the engine, I don't like it only hang on the manifold...

Thinking of a brand new IC piping, but I don't now where to fit it, the mk2 underhood isn't big!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: ORCoaster on December 07, 2016, 03:10:00 pm
I would also be adding  heat shield between that unit and the firewall.  Otherwise things are going to get warm under the dash.   Might get by with thin reflective shield or add to that with 1/2 inch metal deflector. 
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on December 07, 2016, 07:03:51 pm
I would also be adding  heat shield between that unit and the firewall.  Otherwise things are going to get warm under the dash.   Might get by with thin reflective shield or add to that with 1/2 inch metal deflector.
Thank you for the info!

On my Seat I owned before, the gt2052 was very close too but never had issues.

But we are here to share and learn from other, I think it's a good idea to have a reliable and safe car!
Will search for that!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on December 11, 2016, 04:40:18 pm
Hi mates! Some pics of the job made this week-end :)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161211/c3b8f4f416078d6527be861627942178.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161211/ab5ae58b2b4f4dafc5635ee8ae28e843.jpg)

Downpipe done!

The last thing to do is air piping and tuning!
The airflows at iddle is impressive for this little holset, way more than k24
And with more throttle in neutral it begin to create pressure, at something like 2000-2500 rpm!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: ORCoaster on December 11, 2016, 05:28:18 pm
I couldn't tell in the bottom picture what was going on there so I downloaded it and adjusted the brightness and contrast.  Looks great.  Maybe you can edit it like that too and all can enjoy the look. 
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning, goal 25 PSI
Post by: vic003 on December 11, 2016, 05:34:56 pm
Sorry, it's late on here, but due to the light in the garage flash wasn't on.
This one could be better!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161211/d9abc4976c8f380b28b04b7c3a12535a.jpg)

I should build a turbo support bracket!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: ORCoaster on December 12, 2016, 12:04:42 am
So is that a heat shield that is now touching the pipe?  Man that is gonna sound terrible inside.  And is will conduct heat directly to the shield and You don't want that.  You want as much air between that and the turbo.  Then some more between the shield and the firewall.  That way it won't warm on you as bad.
Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vic003 on December 12, 2016, 04:03:52 am
Yes I know for the heat Shield! But I need to refix that crap thing...
It's completely bend due to removing turbo many times.
The car isn't finished yet, but it's not my daily so I take my time too fix all little things...

I think I will put a turbo housing isolation from Cool it, less heat in engine bay and more heat to help turbo spooling.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vic003 on March 29, 2017, 07:10:37 pm
Hi all! Long time I didn't come here, my job don't let me lot of time tout work on my golf as I work far, I don't come back home often...

Last mod on my car is a turbo bracket, modification of 1z bracket to fit the holset, I'll upload pic if it!

Anyone has info to build a homemade electronic boost controller for wastegated turbo? I think 300$ boost controllers are too expensive!

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vanbcguy on March 29, 2017, 07:13:49 pm
Any ball and spring type pressure valve should work. I ran one on my 1.6 for a long time, it worked fine.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vic003 on March 30, 2017, 02:08:40 am
Yes, ball and spring will be the cheap option, but I don't know why, I wanted to buy something like this!
If I can remember you have an electronic controller on your car, right?

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vanbcguy on March 30, 2017, 02:29:52 am
Yep - but by the time you get all the bits and pieces together you're probably in over $150+. Mine is probably overkill for a wastegate turbo though - boost vs rpm vs accelerator pedal maps, vnt vane position maps, etc...

You could probably make something a little simpler...

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vic003 on March 30, 2017, 04:21:25 am
Sure it would be simpler, in fact it would just be boost senser with an electro valve, and maybe add RPM to reduce boost pressure at high RPM, something that ball and spring won't do.

But sure, the system must stay a cheap part and I don't care for the time spend working on it.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vanbcguy on March 30, 2017, 04:33:50 am
RPM + TPS really... And do you really want to reduce boost at high RPM? That leads to high EGTs...

Ideally you're looking for an open wastegate during cruise conditions (reduced back pressure) and max boost with the pedal floored.

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Title: Re: MTDI building and tuning. New Holset p.7, plan runing 30 psi!
Post by: vic003 on March 30, 2017, 07:14:42 am
Reducing boost at high RPM is just if I run high boost, a safe zone for the turbo, as ECU do in the boost map on electronics Tdi.

Yes, seams a good idea to open wastegate when cruising, I must think about it.
I should use a vacuum controlled wastegate in this case instead of boost controlled.

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