VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: burn_your_money on June 11, 2008, 10:34:35 pm
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OK, I'm lying a bit, we dyno it tomorrow. We dynoed the stock car today, a wooping 6 hp and 6 ft/lbs at 4800 RPM wahahaha.
Max power was 36hp and 55 ft/lbs I think. We have videos and images coming soon :D
I've driven a few NAs lately and mine seemed to be about average for the kind of power these old motors are putting down with the stock pumps. I can't wait for tomorrow :D
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OK, I'm lying a bit, we dyno it tomorrow. We dynoed the stock car today, a wooping 6 hp and 6 ft/lbs at 4800 RPM wahahaha.
Max power was 36hp and 55 ft/lbs I think. We have videos and images coming soon :D
What car was this that put down 6 HP?
The car that is getting the giles pump put down 36 though, right?
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Both numbers are my car. With the governer kicking in it limited the car all the way down to 6 hp so it couldn't accelerate anymore :lol:
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yeah that governor is a *** i put a tach on mine about a month ago, getting near to 4k the power is significantly reduced, and after 4k its all worthless and and after 4.5k there is no more go, i like listening to the governor kick in tho, it sounds pretty neat
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You can hear it? What does it sound like?
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it sounds like the loss of power haha. i dunno it just sounds more hoggy like a gasser i guess. floor ur motor until it stops accelerating and u will then have heard the sound.
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Tyler,
you need to start a poll question about what you think it will hit for HP.
I say 59!
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i say 63.5 HP
Duane
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55
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36 (at the wheels) + 30% = 48 hp
What will be really really different is the power past 4000 RPM... she's gonna be an Energizer bunny and keep going and going and going.... ;-)
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Well bad news guys, I dropped the pump on the floor when I was carrying it to the car to install it and cracked the case pretty good :evil: Just joking. It's installed and it RIPS. I love it. On the highway I can hit 140 no problem (4k) It pulls strong the whole way there. It's pretty cool, around town, like in second gear with normal aceleration it almost feels like I have a turbo making 5 psi. Of course if you mash the pedal then hoping for the 15 psi surge of power it's not there but it's still so much better to drive. Definitly night and day. I let one of my friend who also has a mk2 NA drive it and he was also very impressed.
We didn't get to dyno it, the shop received a huge order and the dyno was blocked. We've rescheduled for next week.
Keep the guesses coming on the HP
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i'd guess around +20hp at the wheels :lol: i'm dying to try out my Giles pump!!!!
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We got the dyno results with the super pump. Very nice results :D
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We got the dyno results with the super pump. Very nice results :D
c'mon get the dyno sheet posted :lol:
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What jtanguay said. Post or get banned :P
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What jtanguay said. Post or get banned :P
/\ That. :lol:
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I'm gonna guess at about 70. I have faith. ;)
Brendan
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We got the dyno results with the super pump. Very nice results :D
max HP = 65
max TQ = 90
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What jtanguay said. Post or get banned :P
yes Tyler put up or shut up! I got your back Malone!
:P hate to see ya get banned tyler!
Duane
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:( banned. wow that's harshe. I was working on it at work and I looked at the clock and it was 6! the days are far too short. Tomorrow I promise (or I'm banned :lol: )
PS no more parts for you guys if I'm banned :P
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Temporary Ban??? :lol:
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:( banned. wow that's harshe. I was working on it at work and I looked at the clock and it was 6! the days are far too short. Tomorrow I promise (or I'm banned :lol: )
PS no more parts for you guys if I'm banned :P
I know where to find you! :twisted:
Duane
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HAHA no banning for me
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/burnyourmoney/StockVSPerfpumplegend.jpg)
2 runs with the performance pump, 1 run with the stock pump, I think you can tell the difference
I'm working on the videos right now
The dyno runs were all done at K&H Rad in Scarborough, ON. Excellent people to deal with.
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So 37% more power and 30% more torque, nice!!!
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That's a huge gain for an NA, especially without the airflow increase :) The new curves are very linear!
How's the smoke?
The torque increase is immediate at low RPM (great for heavier load or uphill driving without having to downshift often) and the power is retained at higher RPM, allowing for longer gear pulls and better overall acceleration. It's a lot more than just a peak power difference.
Is this Giles' recent NA pump build using all his latest tricks? As usual, worth the money.
Again, nice job!
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I was hoping for the curves to be different, those look like taken from a textbook! :shock:
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That's pretty amazing. Gotta get mine to Giles
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Well, Photobucket must have gotten hacked, it's gone. Could you post it somewhere else?
Brendan
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I still see it.
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Ah now I see it. The image came back but when you go to photobucket.com you get some weird crap.
Nice graph! What kind of exhaust setup is on this car?
Brendan
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That's an impressive difference in hp and torque.
-Todd
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36 (at the wheels) + 30% = 48 hp
What will be really really different is the power past 4000 RPM... she's gonna be an Energizer bunny and keep going and going and going.... ;-)
Does that graph really say 48.73 hp at the wheels with the new pump ??
And, does the power keep going after 4000 RPM ??
:wink:
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We're the pumps both in the same state of repair? IE an old bagged out , leaking stock pump Vrs a freashly rebuilt Super Pump?
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The car is 100% bone stock. I haven't done a single thing to it (yet) There are definitly more gains to be had with this engine
On to the videos!
This is the first run with the stock pump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVGRvUUv1wQ
This is the next run, focusing on the RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Daii4QmiI
And now, with the pump installed :twisted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLdr5ym6-78
Again, focusing on RPM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOlXn3b3PP4
And with my summer tires on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dma5Qg0KS_g
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That's a huge gain for an NA, especially without the airflow increase :) The new curves are very linear!
How's the smoke?
The torque increase is immediate at low RPM (great for heavier load or uphill driving without having to downshift often) and the power is retained at higher RPM, allowing for longer gear pulls and better overall acceleration. It's a lot more than just a peak power difference.
Is this Giles' recent NA pump build using all his latest tricks? As usual, worth the money.
Again, nice job!
At WOT there is a light smoke, certainly no where near enough to produce a smoke screen. At 7/8 and less throttle there is no smoke. This pump was built about a month ago so it has all the tricks. Giles says he could turn the fuel up a bit more if there was a better intake and exhaust on it
Does that graph really say 48.73 hp at the wheels with the new pump ??
And, does the power keep going after 4000 RPM ??
Yes, 48.73 at the wheels
It pulls very well past 4000 RPM
We're the pumps both in the same state of repair? IE an old bagged out , leaking stock pump Vrs a freashly rebuilt Super Pump?
The original pump had 200k kms on it. It was leaking very slightly from the throttle shaft. We will be putting it on a test bench and comparing it to factory settings.
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How much smoke?
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if dyno runs are on OEM n/a, stock airbox, 13"superlite wheels
interesting what super pump will do
on engine with good compression, right transmission
ported cylinder head, and set of intake & headers
will you consider posting MPG, mr. burn your money?
wonder how long you will keep the setup?
nice flat torque curve from 2K - 3000rpm on dyno graph
video sound like the engine found new redline
you could use tach with big numbers
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Yes as soon as I get internet on my computer where I have all my mileage data I will be posting it.
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Ok just got my old pump (the stock one) off the test stand. It's far from worn out. Timing was within spec, as was low end fuel delivery. The governer was kicking in 1100 RPM too early so top end was limited. Basically on the dyno plot you would see the power continue to climb for several hundred more RPM before falling.
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36 (at the wheels) + 30% = 48 hp
What will be really really different is the power past 4000 RPM... she's gonna be an Energizer bunny and keep going and going and going.... ;-)
Does that graph really say 48.73 hp at the wheels with the new pump ??
And, does the power keep going after 4000 RPM ??
:wink:
We were playing for a Superpump, right ??!!!
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for the price tho u could just turbo ur car
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you'll have to talk to Giles about that one :P
Turbos suck.... and the big picture is putting a super pump on a TD
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hey guys
sorry no winners here, nobody guessed the correct #'s
so pony up and get your superpump ASAP
but seriously we're really happy with Tyler's car's results.
as some one said earlier i'd like to see a well done fresh engine
with porting, maybe 1.9L head, higher compression, headers, exhaust,
intake and cold air intake, ram air maybe?
then i can turn up the fuel more and i bet we can hit 65HP and 90 Ft/Ib's
Giles
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since the performance of the said motor is exciting for na diesel standards but not for um regular standards, i wonder what kind of mileage u could get with such a setup. the increase in revvibility i bet really helps the feel of the car, i always feel like i am hitting a brick wall at 4k.
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the Mileage will depend mainly on how he likes the new power and how often he uses it.
I have a Giles Pump on my TDI with 15 psi of boost right now, missing 1st and 5th gear and I can still get 44 mpg, beat up on my brothers 01 seirra with a 5.3L V8, if I really drive like a @ss the worst I have seen is 38 mpg. the worst milage I have seen with this was 25 mpg, but that was cruising at 70-75 mph from Tucson AZ to Carson City, MI with a fully loaded 5x8 enclosed Uhaul trailer and stuff in the bed of the caddy. the super pump makes my caddy a towing machine!!!
Giles,
one of these days I will turn the boost up more and take advantage of all the fuel you have supplied me with. so far I have about 23,000 miles on the engine and pump since last May and everything is great.
later
jkeiffer
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Very nice results indeed. I can hardly wait to be rocking a Giles pump of my own. ;)
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for the price tho u could just turbo ur car
you'll have to talk to Giles about that one :P
Turbos suck.... and the big picture is putting a super pump on a TD
did someone say superpump on a 1.6TD? Turbo's blow too :wink:
When the head gasket blew at 3800 rpm on mine during the dyno run
100hp and 120 ft/lbs at 20psi. it was just starting to make power :cry:
I broke transmision and turbo at the Atlanta Pro Solo, :oops: might be a little bit till I get it all back together, and hit the dyno again.
Nice numbers for a bone stock NA tho. Power is in the pump
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Sending my pump to Giles this week for the frankenmotor thats going in the Scirocco.
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I should have the mileage results from my first tank in by the weekend :D I drive too much....
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I just filled up.
My previous average mileage was: 43 US MPG
My previous best tank was: 47 MPG
My tank with the super pump: 49 MPG
More to come of course 8)
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Am I the only person who is finding all of this hard to believe?
Injector pumps are a mixture of injection pressure, injection quantity, timing of start of injection, and duration of injection.
This post makes it sound like there is voodoo involved.
I just can't believe that someone can take a good running VW 52HP engine that is smoking lightly at full throttle, indicating excess fuel, install a "super pump" and then all of a sudden the engine isn't running rich and you are getting more HP with the same amount of fuel.
The TDI's are notoriously under-fueled, but not the 52 HP NA Diesels.
thats what makes a Giles pump worth every penny :) he could very well be the best at what he does.
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are u implying that tyler would lie?
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I was just wondering the same thing with my little truck, I have an AEF engine w/ a Lucas IP that Iīve increased the fueling on. The truck is much stronger now and at the last fill up I got 5.1l/100km, previous best was 5.3l/100km.
Go figure....
My average constumption is about the same, 5.6l/100km now vs 5.5l/100km stock.
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Am I the only person who is finding all of this hard to believe?
There have been dozens of dynos on Giles pumps, both NA and Turbo showing the before and after of what his magic can do. It's the real deal, and a valid justified reason why his prices are what they are.
Brendan
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Am I the only person who is finding all of this hard to believe?
I don't find it hard to believe. I have built plenty of performance gas motors with tweaked fuel injection systems and if I didn't drive them WFO (wide friggen open) I saw an increase in fuel economy. Gas cars have a complete computer system to control fuel and timing. Older diesels have a mechanical computer called a fuel pump.
Fuel quantity, injection timing, duration, etc, everything except the injector nozzle is in the pump. There is more to diesel performance than dumping a boatload of fuel to the motor all the time. Giles has the knowledge and equipment to improve these pumps resulting in better performance and economy. I can't think of anyone who has had a bad experience with Giles. He has great customer service.
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Older diesels have a mechanical computer called a fuel pump.
:lol: :lol:
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I don't doubt that the super pump improves HP over stock and perhaps mpg at the same time, but it would be nice to see an actual apples to apples comparison. It would also be nice to see that comparison be done with a properly rebuilt and calibrated non-turbo pump rebuilt by a third party, placed on a car owned by someone who isn't a representative of Giles and then a Giles pump installed on the same car with a dyno chart of each run. - libbybapa
Much agreeded.
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the other thing about the old pump is that if it was factory it was tuned to the spec of fuel from 30 years ago
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the other thing about the old pump is that if it was factory it was tuned to the spec of fuel from 30 years ago
We put my old pump on the test bench. It preformed quite well, however the governer was kicking in about 1000 RPMs too early. Timing advance/retard was inline with a stock pump and it was actually at the upper limits of the test sheets for fuel delivery, until the governer kicked in. There is no disputing the fact that power was significantly increased well before the governer kicked in, and well beyond that as well
AFAIK the specs for calibrating a pump have not changed, but I will confirm with Giles tomorrow (if I remember)
If anyone wants to send me a rebuilt pump I will install and dyno it where my car was previously dynoed. (I'll send it back of course :P) It doesn't change the fact that I work for Giles though. If anyone wants to drive my car, I might let you. Just ask at a GTG.
Compression on my engine is either 350 or 250 all across the board. I know that's a wide spread but I used 2 different compression testers and those were the numbers I got from each gauge. Obviously one is wrong and I'm working to find out which number is correct.
I don't doubt that you did get more than 49 MPG Andrew, and your driving styles most likely were the key difference. Or the fact that my tranny is on it's way out (bad bearing somewhere in it) Either way though, the pump alone has improved my fuel ecomony with little to no change in how I drive. I say "little" because I probably accelerate faster now that I actually can...
This is also of course only 1 tank, so who knows. I do go though a tank a week and a half to every week so updates will be fairly constant.
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Actually if anyone has a rebuilt pump from a third party I will temporarily trade you for my old pump, do a dyno run and then send it back.
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How much smoke?
Bump?
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two thumbs up yo, now go do a quarter mile run and race some people
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How much smoke?
Bump?
This?
At WOT there is a light smoke, certainly no where near enough to produce a smoke screen. At 7/8 and less throttle there is no smoke. This pump was built about a month ago so it has all the tricks. Giles says he could turn the fuel up a bit more if there was a better intake and exhaust on it
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Since secrets can't be revealed, my guess is that it has to do with optimizing the timing curve, as the stock curve was probably dictated by a variety of emissions requirements at the stock fueling level. And who knows, maybe it gets a different profile cam plate or something. We will only be able to guess... Hell, I don't know why my M-TDI pump seems to work good when everyone says it shouldn't.
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If anyone put AAZ came plate in N/A pump, that make a good difference, the car feel much faster..... and ect....
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I too thought about the timing curve being optimized, but according to the dyno plots, the 60HP pump is putting out more HP at ALL RPM's than the 52HP pump.
I'm not a fan of AAZ camplates for 1.6 pumps, unless you need more fuel, and I don't think that 52HP engines need more fuel.
Lol... :roll: a came plate do not give more fuel..... you have to play with the fueling screw if you need more or less fuel.
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Let me walk you through the problems I have with the idea that you can take a 52HP engine, install a different pump and get 60HP.
Lets look at it this way, you take a TDI, throw a chip in and you get around 20 HP and better economy. Adding a chip to a TDI or modifying the guts of a mechanically controlled pump is essentially the same thing.
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or any other chipped car for that matter
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It is possible to get these kinds of numbers with fairly low smoke levels on a non turbo engine.
Modifying the rate and travel of advance+ governor mods while only adding a tad more fuel or mabye no more fuel over stock.Good power,Great fuel economy to boot!
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Hi Guys
to put to rest all you neh sayer's
All i do is optomize the fuel curve to max potential for any given
engine application....NA or Turbo.
Increase the Advance curve thru-out the RPM range and increase
over-all travel.
Then take out the governor intervention so it's just limited by engine
efficeicency.
Tyler's pump still had all the stock parts inside including the camplate.
My special mods thru-out.
Giles
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Yes, if you don't adjust your throttle, you won't get any more fuel. The AAZ camplate gives you the potential for more fuel by giving the rotor a longer stroke and at a higher pressure.
Do you ever recommend the AAZ camplate with the 1.6 pump? I've installed them, but I doubt that any of the customers have ever used the extra potential.
I think that you know too much thing for me...... but you forget important things, Injected Quantity in relation to a giving time, IQ is the little part of the cam lift used to inject and time is the cam profile ... :wink:
You already tried to inject 3.2mm IDI cam X 9mm pump :lol: :lol:
There are much more thing that the lift parameter to inject the fuel properly to get more HP.
PS: how a man can sell a puzzle if he cannot know how to solve it.....
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x2 there Martin... I'm not sure whether all the pieces of his puzzle would even fit...
Prothe, Martin is right...you are missing some very important considerations...yet again and your thoughts are misguided and to the ill-informed, misleading at best.
All I can say is wow. I find the number comparisons and your explanations of how the pumps work very interesting. Oye...
Giles, sending you a PM (re:something Tyler and I have discussed) but I'm glad that you have been discrete with those mods as I think we see a tread happening here...yet again. Leaving pump building to those that truly understand their operation and DIY'ers that take the time to do so is great and much of the information and inquiry here reflects this.
Nothing personal.
Joe
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That's why to increase the HP on the TDI engine is not newsworthy. To increase the HP on a 52 HP engine is big news
Exactly :D
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Prothe,
maybe I can help you understand how the 1.6L n/a power increase can be.
Ignoring all the other very cool (and unfortunately proprietary, for the curious on here) tricks that Giles does to the pumps, I would say the half the battle is in the govenor.
the govenor is a mechanical device that slowly tapers off fuel delivery proportionally to RPM increase.
When you apply full power, you get full fuel-- but only until around 2800-3200 RPM From that point, despite the continued application of full power, fuel delivery starts to decrease. To the point where, at the rev limit the engine is only getting enough fuel to merely maintain that RPM. NOT make full power at that RPM.
So the power peak on a stock pump 1.6L is actually limited by the fuel delivery. It's the crossroads between the falling fuel delivery curve and the potential HP as the revs increase.
As it turns out, if you can hold the fuel delivery constant, you will naturally see increases like the numbers posted here. It's a simple matter of the engine finally being allowed to make the HP that it's capable of.
This (combined with other mods and really in-depth bench tuning) is why Giles Pumps work so well on even stock engines.
Consider this. 1.6L TD engines typically don't make boost until around 3000 RPM, thanks to their oversized T3 or K24. At that point, fuel delivery has already started to taper off.
I would imagine that if all vw IDI diesels sold in the 80's and 90's had Giles Pumps on them, they'd have been immensely more popular. A 1.6L N/A with the same power but more torque and fuel economy than it's 1.7L gasser brothers? We wouldn't have any gas rabbits. The TD rabbit would have replaced the GTI! Imagine the "Original Hot Hatch" was actually diesel?
Terrific.
Anyway, i hope this helps you to understand. If not, I can go into even more detail as to how the govenor tapers off fuel delivery at such a low RPM.
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That's why to increase the HP on the TDI engine is not newsworthy. To increase the HP on a 52 HP engine is big news
Exactly :D
Actually, I don't think that is a true nor a fair statement in many ways and it comes down to efficiency factors...
This is probably true...you have to work harder on an IDI motor to get the fueling "tune" quite right to start giving you usable power. Your right in saying in some ways that comparing a TDI to an IDI motor is apples and oranges because there are several variables and design differences between the two that would allow you to have an accurate comparison.
i.e.
-One is direct injection....one is not
This will play a huge role in the power output just from a shear design factor. With the indirect injected engine think about how much potential energy is lost through the injection/combustion method alone. Many TDI guys that have switched from IDI to TDI remark about engine temperatures, etc. and how they seem to be "cooler" on the TDI. That is because on the DI motors everything is happening right in the combustion chamber. There is less heat transfer through the head and since the power stroke of the motor is applied directly through the combustion chamber itself....all contained in one area....there is less chance of a loss for power vs. the indirect means (fuel combusts in prechamber, power flows down the blast ramp, then create the power stroke, etc. to push the pistons, yada yada yada :) )
The DI engine simply make more use of the energy that they have with less ending up with less waste through the head through simple efficiency means. For one...
Two...
If I were to take a 9mm pump head, use the TDI camplate, etc. and put it on the TDI engine. I'm going to be getting fairly close back to an IDI motors output. Especially if we are talking about a TD or even...and SDI motor. They exist...look at the numbers out there for them in stock form. Efficiency differences between the two motors will always probably allow the DI motor to have a bit of an edge since it makes use of its energy more efficiently with less waste and power is applied more directly. But then you have to figure in that TDI's do come with a differently designed camplate (profiles between DI and IDI are different) and a larger pump head/rotor assembly as well. Even the european SDI motors I believe ran 10mm pump heads.
I'd be interested to see what the dyno plots of a TDI motor with a 9mm pump head and a stock TDI camplate correctly matched to the motor would provide. I'm going to bet...you'd see close to stock IDI TD numbers and the same if you were using the DI motor without the turbo, etc. making it essentially....an NA motor.
So then you move into fueling considerations and the fatal flaw in a few of the above comments. A TDI motor can be just as easily "overfueled" as a IDI motor can and not have the power output to show for that. However, do to design you won't see the "brick wall" in very little power gain in the TDI as much as you would see it in the IDI motor. You can subtly add power to the 52hp motor and gain hp without increasing smoke too much...you can do that a bit more on the TDI motor comparatively. One is going to always be "better" at handling that increase in fueling because of shear design (as mentioned above) which lends to using the fuel more efficiently, creating the power more efficiently and wasting less energy through heat loss because of these efficiency (and other) factors. Eventually there is a trade off and design will harm you and just create "more smoke".
You can be careless though in overfueling and lose the efficiency and potential power of the TDI motor quite easily as well. This is more visible with some of the mTDI builds that are occuring these days just based on how some pumps are being built/designed without taking in some key differences (especially when many are used IDI pumps as a base). Camplates alone (sounding like broken record) aren't the answer. The eTDI versions ECM will correct many of these flaws to the best of its ability...so its harder to see on electronic cars. I could go into more of the DI loosing efficiency through improper pump design, crappy nozzles with nasty spray patterns, etc. but thats for the TDI forum sometime down the road.
Prothe...yes, that is of course correct (re: the bosch manual)...as a matter of fact, its almost a direct quote I think .
I think you need to look at the IDI vs. DI camplates again as there are other factors beyond just the slope of the curve that are different between the two different profiles of camplates. Not sure where/what this comment means or is going with anything "Yes, I have installed a AAZ camplate on a 9mm pump" The point being....? There is a direct correlation between the "slope of the curve" as you call it, injection duration and injection pressures to begin with. Though different between IDI and TDI (DI motors needing more of course...as their camplates show) you make it sound as if on the DI motors that this is mystical and its something that only happens on the DI motors...with this comment...
"As far as AAZ camplates are concerned, it's the slope of the curve will affect injection duration. But with the TDI, the steeper slope of the camplate also helps generate higher pressures needed"
Camplate design between IDI and DI motors share this function and are directly correlated between both motors. 'slope height' and the 'length of slope' play the same part in both motors injection duration/creating injection pressures, etc. but are respectively different between the two different motor designs. In other words, the slope on the IDI camplate as well helps "generate" the pressures needed for the IDI motor too. Its not a function of the DI motor alone (to keep info clear...because thats not the way your comment reads).
Making "lots o' hp" on a 52hp motor would be great and is newsworthy. I have to wonder if your comparing to lumps though such as the TDI vs. an IDI motor....at what cost does the power increase come at? The effiency of these motors is going to differ no matter what the power level or how much fuel you throw at them based on the design alone in many ways. It simply will take "that much more" to get the IDI there vs. the DI for that reason. There has to be a trade off somewhere. Almost makes me wish I had an IDI motor to still mess around with.
Joe
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Actually, I remembered the information from the book as I've been through it a few times...hence the reason why I thought it was a "pretty direct quote".
I don't recall you getting "flamed" for using the AAZ camplate, I think people were looking for more of an explanation...or trying to understand what you were saying as it didn't make much sense the way it was worded.
The effects of the short duration are indeed more noise and more NOx. There are other considerations...but I guess if your not concerned about keeping diesels "efficient" and trying keep NOx emissions at bay via the best "tuning" of the pump itself...eh, not sure there. Again, IDI vs. DI dynamics come into play here and its part of the big reason you see DI engines plentiful on the market and the design in use these days. So much of it goes back to efficiency. Even if you can achieve "peak efficiency" at a shorter duration...it comes at a cost (and yes...I did see that...so? the point being when reflecting back to what I just said?).
A problem with many of the mTDI's running around on base IDI pumps is noise (a thread going here right now with someone having those problematic symtoms on a AAZ based pump...in the TDI forums). While camplates will play a part in this, the timing mechanism of the part (for advance) needs to be able to "play with" with camplate and work well together. Among other things. Driveability and durability...if you want to call it that aren't going to be drastically effected in the long run, but I'm going to bet that you are going to see higher temps and more heat losses...thus potential energy lost in the motor by going with such a duration (if I'm reading your post correctly). The AAZ motor originally was decided to be fairly sedate from the factory...remember, a flat LDA pin, fairly conservative turbo, etc. etc. so you can imagine why the AAZ camplate was used as well. Now, I've never had a AAZ pump in hand...but I'd be interested in seeing what the timing advance mechism measures out to as well in the AAZ pump vs. the traditional 1.6 IDI pumps.
There has been some talk about reducing NOx emissions in DI engines via the use of Direct Water Injection.
One paper that I have states...
vaporization of liquid water as well as a local increase
in specific heat of the gas around the flame resulted in
lower Nitrogen Oxide emissions (NOx) and soot
formation rates. Using stratified fuel-water injection
increases soot at 86% loads due in part to late injection.
Because NOx decreased at all loads, the injection timing
can be advanced to minimize fuel consumption and soot.
Of course...another apple and oranges comparison since we are talking IDI vs. DI in the comparison. You still need to look for "the optimal burn" if you can say that in either scenerio....be it IDI or DI.
Joe
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prothe, you brought all that upon yourself
following this thread, you were uber hot
right from the get-go about the power increase
the world needs skeptic like you
otherwise the "voodoo" will remain a mystery
consider all the tech info posted a blessing
and learn from it, hopefully?
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if I talk about AAZ came plate in 1.6 pump, It's to shorter a little bit the duration, and at the same occasion you can add a bit more fuel, the result on an 1.6N/A is good.
Or install a 10mm head with original came plate you get the same result.
Yes the engine are more noisy, more nox, and more..... HP :lol:
Unfortunately the IDI motor are limited about to inject too quickly, there are to respect a certain limit, but on TDI It's different, more you can inject quickly, more the result is good.
I know, because I have tested.
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damn, so my aaz camplate and 10mm head is deemed to be a failure right from the start? hehe
my view is:
Giles has the tools and knowledge to tune the pumps, ie: he doesn't just adds "some" more.. he adds X ml precisely.
that is a big difference, I know how to increase fueling and timing, but its trial and error, and there are virtually infinite possibilities to get it wrong.
my Renault Rapid 1.6D has 55hp in stock form, basically the same engine as VW's (some came with Bosch IP, mine has Lucas CAV) so why there is any doubt on these dyno proven claims??
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damn, so my aaz camplate and 10mm head is deemed to be a failure right from the start? hehe
Don't believe anyone said that. However, again...there is more to consider in upgrading fueling...far over just a camplate and a hydraulic head. It "will" work...but optimally...far from it
In many ways...its good that some of this "voodoo" remains a mystery but having been there...done that...if you understand how all the components of the pump work together you can see where the changes need made and if you feel comfortable with it...it can be done.
Many props to guys like Giles that make a living off building and being able to step outside the box and offer a quality product that he CAN stand behind in more way than one. There are those of us that build our own pumps and do it correctly with the understanding...
Then there are others...
Joe
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I'm still extremely sceptical of the concept of getting 60HP by just changing the pump and welcome the discussion of ideas. We all reserve the right to disagree :)
I guess the govenor explanation wasn't satisfactory?
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guess not....goes back to understanding how the pump works...and your description was great.
Joe
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guess not....goes back to understanding how the pump works...and your description was great.
Joe
I agree, I'm happy to have seen the post ;)
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If the governor starts limiting fuel at under 4000rpm then why can I blow smoke at 4500rpm? It pulls fairly hard still and the smoke is slightly less than at say.... 3500rpm. Shouldn't the fuel be so limited that it couldn't smoke? This is a with a 1.6NA.
So Giles can make a pump that pulls harder than stock and smokes less...I need one 8) .....
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I know what you mean. But if our butt dynos and rearview mirror smoke detectors were really accurate, we'd be able to detect these changes. Don't forget, even with falling fuel delivery, the HP still increases with RPM rise to the peak HP point. Much more so and beyond with a Giles pump!
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If the governor starts limiting fuel at under 4000rpm then why can I blow smoke at 4500rpm? It pulls fairly hard still and the smoke is slightly less than at say.... 3500rpm. Shouldn't the fuel be so limited that it couldn't smoke? This is a with a 1.6NA.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but it may be because the fuel is not being injected early enough into the cylinders to allow enough time for a complete burn so you are getting wasted/semi-combusted fuel out the back (black smoke)
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I "raced" my cars twin last night. Basically it was a 91 Golf with a 1.6 NA. His pump was rebuilt 15000 ago by some shop and he has my old tranny, the POS AWY short ratio thing. We met up on the side of the road to discuss an engine swap and then decided to carry on to the nearby gas station. He was ahead of me and he pulled out and then I followed. I could see by all the black smoke he was foot to the floor, so I followed suit. With his short ratios he was able to slightly pull away from me in first and second (for me, probably second/third for him) but then I started coming up on him FAST. haha. I didn't pass him because we weren't really racing and the last thing I want is a racing charge. We were on a 2 lane highway. No excessive speed was involved, just accelerating hard up to about 20km over the limit. We were both still "racing" when I had to back off, it's not like he hit "top speed" and slowed down and that is why I caught him.
We drove each others cars after and he definitely was impressed
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Don't forget, even with falling fuel delivery, the HP still increases with RPM rise to the peak HP point. Much more so and beyond with a Giles pump!
Good point I forgot that minor detail. Isn't peak HP like 4800rpm?
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but it may be because the fuel is not being injected early enough into the cylinders to allow enough time for a complete burn so you are getting wasted/semi-combusted fuel out the back (black smoke)
That's probably right, Giles said he makes the timing advance more.
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Great post. Its answering many of the questions I've had.
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It's a 1.9TD stock governor............ around 4500 look what appens, maybee higher for 1.6.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6j0vrfaXPmw
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Does anyone have any before and or after dyno numbers for an AAZ with a Giles pump? I've found lots of VERY positive reviews, definatly enough for me to feel very comfortable getting one, I'd just like to see some numbers to go with the "ass dyno" numbers already posted.
This thread was a great read BTW!
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It's a 1.9TD stock governor............ around 4500 look what appens, maybee higher for 1.6.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6j0vrfaXPmw
That's not the case with my pump, it defuels at 3500 and @ 3900 its done.
Steel sleeve where the spring used to be as well BTW.
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Just filled up again,
51 miles per US gallon
4.6l/100kms
61.4 miles per CAN gallon :D
70% highway
Very impressed.
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Dang that's really good..
I'm saving up for a Giles pump. Gonna take some time but i'm getting one!!
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Just filled up again,
51 miles per US gallon
4.6l/100kms
61.4 miles per CAN gallon :D
70% highway
Very impressed.
the MPG gain is equally impressive from your oem IP previous best
diesel IP truly = PCM on gassers. did you say smoke got minimize on acceleration.
got 1st diesel car 2 yrs ago and still in school on diesel IP
in gasser terms its hard to tune for gains in both power and MPG
mr. Giles is on top of his game
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yeah I used to have very small amounts of smoke but it's pretty bad right now. I think my fuel filter is clogged, air filter needs changing and the injectors need to be replaced. I think I filled up with some very crappy diesel last time
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I think itīs the advanced timing that increases both power and mileage. But itīs a thin line where itīs optimal, too far advanced and the cyl pressure and temp skyrocket. I guess Giles has done a few hours on the test bench... 8)
I turned up the fueling on my Lucas IP, it adds the fuel in front of the injection stroke advancing the timing at the same time and I got more power for less fuel too!
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I "raced" my cars twin last night. Basically it was a 91 Golf with a 1.6 NA. His pump was rebuilt 15000 ago by some shop and he has my old tranny, the POS AWY short ratio thing. We met up on the side of the road to discuss an engine swap and then decided to carry on to the nearby gas station. He was ahead of me and he pulled out and then I followed. I could see by all the black smoke he was foot to the floor, so I followed suit. With his short ratios he was able to slightly pull away from me in first and second (for me, probably second/third for him) but then I started coming up on him FAST. haha. I didn't pass him because we weren't really racing and the last thing I want is a racing charge. We were on a 2 lane highway. No excessive speed was involved, just accelerating hard up to about 20km over the limit. We were both still "racing" when I had to back off, it's not like he hit "top speed" and slowed down and that is why I caught him.
We drove each others cars after and he definitely was impressed
Yes I was definitely Impressed, although his car has less mileage, and has probably been better cared for, there was a huge difference drive-ability... Aside from the lack of Power Steering :P
For anyone who wants to know the story here, I've been wanting more power to my little 1.6n/a for some time. Looked into adding turbo, but a swap seems to make much more sense....
From some stroke of luck I got in touch with Tyler, we talked and agreed on swapping out my tired, and very smokey 400+Kms 1.6 with a fresher 1.6TD on it a Giles pump and maybe a few other recommendations from Tyler, Bigger down pipe? Increase to 20PSI?
Anyway, I look forward to this new chapter in my Golfs life. The numbers to this one will come.
I will most likely be giving whats left of my engine to Tyler, and so he will have a Bosch rebuilt pump, rebuilt about 15k-20k ago...
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I think your engine will have better compression then mine, and mine has sat for the last 5 years so it's not in the best of health.
Power Steering is over rated :P
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I am going to have my 1.9 AAZ TD engine rebuilt and was looking at getting a Giles pump. Does anyone have numbers with one of his pumps on a 1.9? Is there anything I should have done different during the engine rebuild to help out to get better numbers? What kind of injectors should I use, the GTD or the mercedes ones? ANy input would be great. Thanks
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Call Giles at the shop and talk to him about it.
905-940-2266
On my brothers AAZ, I had a mild pump built for him and off boost there was no difference (as designed) but once the boost hit, you knew there was a turbo :twisted:
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will do. sounds like you can make a monster out of one of these 1.9 AAZ engines.
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burn out video?
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burn out video?
X 2
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maybe once I get my tach hooked up again.