VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 79rabbit4dr on October 29, 2008, 12:46:30 am
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Been searching and can't find any sort of list or way to tell what head gasket I need for my 81 1.6l na. AND, the search told me I can't search for something right after having just performed a search :roll:, I told it to shut up and find me what I actually wanted then... things aren't going well.
I've seen a lot of stuff I don't understand, 11mm head, 12mm head, how many notches, metal, rubber, cork... I'm sure I'm over complicating things.
My rig is all stock, I just need a new head gasket, nothing fancy (just quality). How do I know which one to order?
P.S. I know I can just call one of our trusted vendors and ask them for one (and I will), but I'd like to know what to look for, in case of a pinch and I don't have the time to order it and wait for shipping.
P.P.S. and I put the subject simply as Head Gasket in hopes that a list/explanation could be posted here and it'll make searching for "which head gasket do i need" a little easier to find relevant information.
THANKS!!!
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When searching, be sure to click the box that says "search for all terms". The default is "search for any terms..." and it doesn't do a lot of good in many cases.
If your rig is stock, it should have 11mm bolts. You're just looking for a stock replacement so don't worry about metal gaskets etc. The stock fiber gasket should be fine.
There should be a series of notches or holes by the oil drain hole in the front center of the gasket. These holes represent the thickness of the gasket. VW used different gaskets to compensate for different piston protrusions. Some people will say you need to measure the piston protrusion to be sure (this is a good idea). If you pull the gasket and it's original it should be pretty safe to go with the same number of holes. :D
Edit: A picture of the holes can be seen here. This is a 3 notch gasket. http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/figure_62.jpg
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Make sure you don't do what I did and put it on upside down. This will starve the head of oil. Even though at first glance it looks like it could go either way there is an oil passage that definitely orients one way only. Before you remove the old one hold the new one up next to it to make sure which way. The tab sticking out with the notches on it is not always on the same side so that is not a good indicator either. I swapped out a perfectly good one before I found that out. If you have the funky "three square" drive head bolts then they are stretch bolts that shouldn't be re-used. Buy the right driver for this as they can really be a b*tch to get out.
I think there may be some other types that are re-usable but I'm no expert.
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The top side of the gasken should say "OBEN".
Although you probably have the reusable allen head bolts, I suggest you plan on tossing them in the steel recycling bin. Their insertion length is way too short. Its a real issue. You may crack the block when you put it back togather.
I suspect its a design error. Probably the same bolts that went in the gas motors, but the diesel head is thicker.
Seriously consider getting head studs from Raceware or ARP.
Or take one of the bolts to a local fastener vendor like FASTENAL and get longer bolts. Eye ball how for the stock bolts protrude from the head, measure the depth of the hole in the block, and get somthing just a little shorter.
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If it is all stock and has never been opened up then count the number of notches and buy that one. The notches are critical and determine thickness of the head gasket. 1 is thinnest 3 is thickest. If you don't know and the best way to determine which one is to measure piston protrusion. Lots of guys make and some sell a tool to to this. Basically how far out of the block you pistons stick out tells you what head gasket to use.
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So there is no way to know until AFTER you remove the head?
I have the triple square ones that are the same as the inner axle bolts. funky 12 pt star thing.
So I need to replace the head bolts when I do the head gasket. Anything else?(just did timing belt/water pump)
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FAQ:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6741
You should be able to see the notches or holes on the tab of the gasket that is poking out the front of the block.
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the head bolts are a 12mm triple square and i think the inner axle are 8mm triple square.
There is no for sure way, but whatever head gasket is in the car now and running fine should work. Ex. 2 notch gasket in now then you can buy a 2 notch gasket to replace it. The notches and holes are the same.
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FAQ:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6741
You should be able to see the notches or holes on the tab of the gasket that is poking out the front of the block.
Thanks for the FAQ.
Dang, I didn't see anything coming out the front when I was looking at the leakage, but i'll check again. Thanks!
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You may have to scrape some gunk off. :lol:
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Man it's hard tell for sure (having never seen a new gasket in real life) but I think the one I have is a 3 notch.
I took some pictures, can anyone tell me for sure if I'm even looking at the right thing. And if those are the three notches i'm supposed to look for.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SQuFpnzy6OI/AAAAAAAABO0/wITCXgfJeCc/s800/DSC07081.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SQuFvt1_N1I/AAAAAAAABPA/rXp1Dbj0gMs/s800/DSC07083.JPG)
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Yup, that would be 3 notches.
The problem now is that a 3-notcher is the universal gasket... meaning that the person that assembled the engine the last time may have just thrown one in rather than measuring piston protrusion properly.
No way to know for sure until you measure for yourself. :wink:
Vince
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hmmm... it's running really good right now, had my neighbor (30+ yr. diesel mechanic) take a listen and he said it sounds really good. I even have the timing advanced to .95 mm (low end of "performance range"). How critical is it to measure protrusion if it running smoothly now?
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The question is, do you feel lucky, punk ??
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/300px-Harry_Callahan.jpg)
The gasket sets the size of the squish area... so cold weather starting is compromised if you use a gasket thicker than required. That's not something you're gonna "hear" at the moment !
Obviously your call.
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The gasket sets the size of the squish area... so cold weather starting is compromised if you use a gasket thicker than required.
Is that something that can be overcome w/ a block heater (it has one), or keeping it garaged or are you referring to internal metals expanding/contracting?
Sorry if this is a stupid question... :oops:
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Block heater will help as the more notches are thicker gasket which means lower compression and harder starting. All that said, if you have had it through a winter and it did well with your old 3 notcher it should be at least the same with a new one...I would measure it though. I have a parts store that will let me take back stuff in the box though :D
I buy all 3 and take what is needed.
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There are no stupid questions.. :wink:
You won't harm your engine by using a gasket that is thicker than it needs to be... it will just be a bit harder to start in cold weather. How much is "a bit" ?? Hard to say...
My own personal opinion: it's not hard to measure piston protrusion and get the correct gasket, so I always do it.
In this case you are going to spend hours doing the head gasket, and want the engine to run its very best. You're going to need to set the timing, which requires a dial indicator anyways... :D
I believe you can also measure the piston protrusion with a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges... haven't done it myself but it makes sense.
But again, it's a subtle thing... so don't sweat it. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that the 3-notcher is the correct gasket anyways !!
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There are no stupid questions.. :wink:
You won't harm your engine by using a gasket that is thicker than it needs to be... it will just be a bit harder to start in cold weather. How much is "a bit" ?? Hard to say...
My own personal opinion: it's not hard to measure piston protrusion and get the correct gasket, so I always do it.
In this case you are going to spend hours doing the head gasket, and want the engine to run its very best. You're going to need to set the timing, which requires a dial indicator anyways... :D
I believe you can also measure the piston protrusion with a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges... haven't done it myself but it makes sense.
But again, it's a subtle thing... so don't sweat it. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that the 3-notcher is the correct gasket anyways !!
Thanks Vince!
Does the timing HAVE to be reset after a head gasket install? I just timed it when I changed my timing belt/water pump. I have a dial indicator, and all the timing tools (german guy on e-bay style), what else would I need to check protrusion? Is there a link to a "How-To" on that? I didn't see one on your site.
I have a parts store that will let me take back stuff in the box though
I'll have to see if any of my local retailers will let me do that as well. What i'd like to avoid is tearing it down, then waiting a week for parts. I live in a very small town area so options are limited.
I'm guessing this would be a good time to replace glow plugs as well? While i've got easy access to them.
Thanks guys!!!
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Most retailers will accept unopened returns except maybe on special orders.. Definitely a good time to do glow plugs, it don;t get much easier!!! Just make sure you get the Bosch glowplugs... I think the Bosch Duratherms(?) are the good one to get... Haven't found any other brands as of yet that hold up as well..
There are two ways to measure piston projection... The first and probably better way is to use a dial indicator... TO do this you'll need to have the surface of the pistons clean... Turn the crank until the piston is flush with the deck of the block (a straight edge is good for this).. The body of the dial indicator needs to be resting on the block, the pin that moves the gauge on the crown of the piston... Zero the dial indicator then turn the crank untill you get your highest reading.. Although all the cylinders should be uniform, it pays to check all 4..
The other method is with the straight edge and feeler gauge... Once again clean all the piston crowns.. Rest the straight edge on the piston and turn the crank until the piston is at it's highest point... Then using the feeler gauge measure the distance between the straight edge and deck of the block..
Bentley will give the specs for which head gasket you need for your particular piston projection...
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more notches are thicker gasket which means lower compression and harder starting.
Actually, differences in head gasket thickness has very little effect on compression ratio.
It all has to do with the 'squish and quench': which are ruled by the distance from the piston crown and the head surface.
If the distance is too great (too many notches), the air won't be crammed into the swirl chamber fast enough to generate enough turbulence to get a good burn. The result is crappy starts, and perhaps poor fuel/air mixing when warm. Which could effect fuel milage.
Also, if the distance between the head and the piston is too great, 'Quench' will be degraded. Quench is the process of the piston dumping heat into the releatively cooler head, when the piston and head in close proximity.
So if you cannot verify that your gasket is the original gasket, you really need to measure.
Bently says to measure piston projection after aligning the pointer in the bell houseing timing hole with the "0" mark on the flywheel.
I use a straight edge across the piston top, and a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the straight edge to the block. I check both 1 and 4 with the pointer on 0, and I have observed the same measurement.
So far, so good.
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The old one is a fel pro...great gasket, but that would mean someone has been there before. Watch out They could have thrown on a 3 notch just cause. There are many different head gaskets someone could put on. Looks like a hydraulic head, but I could be wrong, but there is also one for the older mechanical heads. Which there was improvements on the head gasket, but also changes in the engines. Search Franken or frankenmotor lots of guys using a newer gasket on the older blocks and might help you make sense of what I am saying.
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Does the timing HAVE to be reset after a head gasket install?
You should check it to be sure, but it probably won't need adjusting. If you have the dial gauge its pretty quick, you mentioned that you just did the TB, so I assume you have a dial gauge, or maybe you borrowed one?
Have you called wackerlie to see if they have all 3, or any, of the HGs in stock for your car?
I live in Driggs by the way, I have all the timing tools if you need to borrow them, I'll be out your way on Saturday and you could just mail them back when you're done, if you need them that is.
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I read all of the first page but not the second.
My Jetta had the three notch put in it and it didn't start in cold at all. I just thought it was a head problem or ring problem but noooo!!!
I measured the protrusion with feeler gauges last week and my block calls for a 1 notch.
I tried to make up with the hard starts with a block heater but it is an uphill battle.
The low comp and poor running when cold on start up and idling just makes things messy. I would imagine cylinder wear would increase as well but i don't have enough experience to say you're going to wear your engine faster by running a three notch.
I'm definitely switching to a 1 notch for the winter.
new stretch bolts, a HG and some solvent will cost you less than 100$ for SURE. It's not a hard job either except for the stupid exhaust clamps. Especially with a friend to help you. don't forget the oil return line off the turbo. take it off at the sump.
You will want to use the search here for putting the exhaust clamps back on there.
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Ok I just tore into the "little bastard" tonight. Found the head gasket has three holes. What are the measurements to determine if this is the correct gasket (using a straight edge and feeler gauges). Anything else I should be checking in there?
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I think this will work let me know what you think.
My idea for measuring piston protrusion is get a flat bar and drill a hole in it for my dial indicator and tap the hole to accept my IP timming gauge that way it will always be set. Then drill 3 holes in the flat stock so that I can bolt the steel down to the block across the bore and straight across the deck to get zero. In between the steel and the block get some old wrist pins or some percision washers to lift it off the deck a little bit, but be exactly the same thicknesses so not to screw up my readings. Then once I get zero I should be able to swing it over the bore and get the readings rather quickly and be able to move the piston up and down to see where it is highest.
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Have you called wackerlie to see if they have all 3, or any, of the HGs in stock for your car?
Wackerli;
"1 notch is no longer available,
2 notch there is only 1 in US and it's in NJ,
3 notch there are none in the US."
:roll: he kinda sounded like a bonehead though.
going to try local auto shops but i'll probably end up buying from one of our vendors on the forum.
jackbombay, know of any local group stuff? I know a couple air cooled people, and a guy down the street w/ a blue caddy and a orange rabbit, but that's it. We're in Salem/N Rexburg area. Glad to finally see someone from around here.
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Wackerli;
"1 notch is no longer available,
2 notch there is only 1 in US and it's in NJ,
3 notch there are none in the US."
About par for the course for wackerlie , worth a shot though.
going to try local auto shops but i'll probably end up buying from one of our vendors on the forum.
I usually mail order most everything for the IDIs, and TDIs are to new for the parts store to much of anything for them, so I mail order those parts too.
jackbombay, know of any local group stuff? I know a couple air cooled people, and a guy down the street w/ a blue caddy and a orange rabbit, but that's it. We're in Salem/N Rexburg area. Glad to finally see someone from around here.
A friend here in the valley usually has a GTG in the fall, mostly TDIs, but all are welcome, there are a few nice IDI caddy's in the valley here and some older dashers and rabbits. I have a Quantum TD project car that should run next summer some time *fingers crossed*
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What are the measurements to determine if this is the correct gasket (using a straight edge and feeler gauges).
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SRSq396htbI/AAAAAAAABeU/0nybpHEDE4c/s800/DSC07272.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SRSq6HogpgI/AAAAAAAABdw/JfoKFrqOkXY/s800/DSC07273.JPG)(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SRSq8n_PSxI/AAAAAAAABd4/VDYQEp6qrXY/s800/DSC07274.JPG)
Anything else I should be checking in there?
+1
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What kind of a parts list should I have when doing a HG?
so far,
HG
Stretch bolts
GP's
worth doing injectors at the same time?
what else?
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What kind of a parts list should I have when doing a HG?
so far,
HG
Stretch bolts
GP's
worth doing injectors at the same time?
what else?
HG
ARP head bolts
Gp's (only if they are bad OR if you want to be safe)
Injector rebuild (absolutely)
Lifter/valve cover gasket (rubber)
Timing belt
Waterpump
Basic fluids
Below is only if you are taking the manifolds etc off the head.
top end gasket set IE; intake, exhaust, 2 water outlet gaskets.
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I like this thing if you don't have one already. It is a must on hydros I think, but had to add less oil after adding it to one of my mechanical head rabbits.
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=55h1fd3qfxldjw55ypaydhrl&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282766@JETTA%20TDI%20&year=1985&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5770@Valve%20Cover%20Oil%20Deflector
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I like this thing if you don't have one already. It is a must on hydros I think, but had to add less oil after adding it to one of my mechanical head rabbits.
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=55h1fd3qfxldjw55ypaydhrl&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282766@JETTA%20TDI%20&year=1985&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5770@Valve%20Cover%20Oil%20Deflector
Oh ya! Those be nice for sure...
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HG
ARP head bolts
Gp's (only if they are bad OR if you want to be safe)
Injector rebuild (absolutely)
what's the best place you've found for ARP head bolts, anybody know part # that would fit my application?
Where do I get the parts to rebuild my injectors?
Lifter/valve cover gasket (rubber)
Timing belt
Waterpump
Basic fluids
just did timing belt/water pump, but that's a good thing to add to the list.
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I would recommend against the ARP's I have them in my TDI and have a slight HG Leak now, on TDIclub there are several guys that have had leaks start after installing the ARPs, while leaks with teh stock head bolts are never heard of.
My ARPs will be coming out when I replace the HG.
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I'll be danged. I don't have tons of mile on mine yet but over 20k and no leaks.
I think there are several others here that have more miles than that.
I wonder what conditions are causing the leaks..
Then I also wonder if the construction of the TDI head differs enough from the IDI head that this isn't a issue on the IDI engine.
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HG
ARP head bolts
Gp's (only if they are bad OR if you want to be safe)
Injector rebuild (absolutely)
what's the best place you've found for ARP head bolts, anybody know part # that would fit my application?
Where do I get the parts to rebuild my injectors?
Lifter/valve cover gasket (rubber)
Timing belt
Waterpump
Basic fluids
just did timing belt/water pump, but that's a good thing to add to the list.
I bought my ARP's from Summit.
But I think you have 11mm head bolts? I don't know though maybe someone will chime in.
ARP part #s
Head Studs..........................251-4701 12mm
Main Studs...........................204-5402
Con Rod bolts 1.6 and 1.7......104-6002
Trans ring gear bolt kit 020 ...204-3001
Oil pump bolts.......................661-1014
Check in the "For Sale" thread for a thread started by blkboostedtruck for injectors.
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ARP head studs for 11mm engines 204-4701 I've gotten them on ebay for around $100 shipped... Worth every dollar and them some on the old 11mm blocks...
Very interesting about the TDI having issues with ARP studs.... They've been the only way to keep 11mm IDI's from leaking... And they seem to hold up well on 12mm TD IDI's with crazy amounts of boost.. I wonder if it could be an issue with torque specs....
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Sounds like the ARPs have a far better track record on the IDIs than the
TDIs, many people running a lot of fuel and more then 22 PSI has had
issues with the ARPs, there are a few guys that torqued the ARPs somewhat
more than the instructions said to and they have not had issues, fwiw.
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I picked up my ARP 11mm headstuds from headbolts.com, it came out to ~$110 shipped.
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Are the ARP studs specifically made for the TDI?? Or it like the ones used in the old 11mm IDIs?? (Gasser studs) Maybe they need a tad more torque??? Don;t know much about these new fangled TDI's Finally moving up to 1.6's...
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this is probably taboo, but i'm kinda low on cash right now so it's the route i'm going to have to try.
the plan is to just get regular oem couple dollar bolts for now and then down the road, replace them w/ the arp's.
how bad would it be to do this; i'm thinking down the road, w/ all the oem bolts in place, take one bolt out at a time and just replace it w/ an arp one, one-by-one. :?: :?: :?:
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Yes you can do that.
Just keep the boost down and you will be fine with OE bolts.
Just sucks to do it again later but at least you can do it without removing the head.
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Which bolts does your engine have??? (maybe you already mentioned this and I missed it) 11mm (Hex head) or 12mm (Tripple square head)..
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this is probably taboo, but i'm kinda low on cash right now so it's the route i'm going to have to try.
the plan is to just get regular oem couple dollar bolts for now and then down the road, replace them w/ the arp's.
how bad would it be to do this; i'm thinking down the road, w/ all the oem bolts in place, take one bolt out at a time and just replace it w/ an arp one, one-by-one. :?: :?: :?:
Thats ow everyone installed their ARPs on TDI club, nobody ever had issues right away, but as mentioned many of us had issues later, mine were fine for ~20,000 miles. I think if I had torqued the ARPs more than the directions said there would not have been an issue. The ARPs that fit a TDI are actually intended for a cosworth gasser, where peak cylinder pressures are certainly way lower than a Diesel.
The question is, at least with a TDI, how much to torque them?
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Which bolts does your engine have??? (maybe you already mentioned this and I missed it) 11mm (Hex head) or 12mm (Tripple square head)..
:shock: I have the triple square type (for sure) but I assumed they were 11mm (I thought 11mm was stock and 12mm were upgrades...)
Are all triple square's (head bolts) 12mm then?
Also, where can I buy a freakin triple square driver!?!? Dumb local VW dealership doesn't sell ANY tools! Found out I had a Fastenal store just down the road, but the dummy behind the counter didn't have a clue - looked like he belonged in a Amberzombie and French store... stupid punk.
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most auto parts stores stock them.
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Check the KD tools website. Take the tool # to your local auto parts store. they should be able to order it.
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most auto parts stores stock them.
Yep, I would be surprised if the checker in rexburg didn't have them.
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I picked up a set of Mac Tools XZN sockets on Ebay for something like $30, brand new. At the time, the seller had a bunch on there. Try searching for "XZN" and see what you come up with.
Chris
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You've got the 12 mm bolts... They changed this about 1982 ish... Earlier had 11 mm bolts later were 12mm.. With a NA the standard replacement bolts should be adequate... The head studs are crucial with the earlier 11mm ones (lots of problems)...
I did get one of these older 11mm setups with triple square bolts in it though.. I'm suspecting someone may have used gasser bolts in it.. Might be something to double check...
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You've got the 12 mm bolts... They changed this about 1982 ish... Earlier had 11 mm bolts later were 12mm.. With a NA the standard replacement bolts should be adequate... The head studs are crucial with the earlier 11mm ones (lots of problems)...
I did get one of these older 11mm setups with triple square bolts in it though.. I'm suspecting someone may have used gasser bolts in it.. Might be something to double check...
Crap, I have an '81... but's definately a triple square in there. Once I get my triple square bit (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17208) I'll pull a bolt from both my 81 diesel and my 79 gasser and compare. Then i'm taking them into the fastenal store and seeing what some quality bolts would run me. then i'll decide to get oem or fastenal.
Yep, I would be surprised if the checker in rexburg didn't have them.
been there, they only had 6pt star. Called napa, they "have one set aside" for me, we'll see. if not, i'll order a 4pc set from checkers that Dan (zukgod) gave me a PN for in the discussion listed above.
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Crap, I have an '81... but's definately a triple square in there.
I thought so that's why I mentioned that... Maybe you are lucky and someone swapped in a later engine... I ran into this on the very first VW I had... I was back and fourth with the autoparts several times till we got it figured out... :x
IF you end up going to Fastenall let us know what you make out.. I've pretty much given up on the local store.. I say metric they say :shock: :?:
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I compete *use the word loosely* with fastenal. I sell nuts and bolts as well and from the fastenal guys around here they pretty much know nothing about fasteners. The one guy that works for them I went to school with and he has 4 national contracts suppling bolts to companies and I am in my first year and almost do as much business as he does. He and some others just take orders and deliver.
That being said, alot of fasteners are automotive only and some warehouses will only sell if you are set up as an automotive vendor. But just becuase it is metric doestn't mean it is automotive. I can usually get whatever I need for my car. I am still waiting on an answer from SPS unbrako about my superstrength head bolts though.
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Wal Mart greeters of the fasnter world???? We have Fastenal retail store here and talk about a bunch of @&# ups, and the rep (soon to me former) that stops by the shop here isn;t much better... I'm in the process of switching to a local operation that has been amazing so far... I gotta remeber to ask them about studs... Aside from the givens the company I'm switching to can get me just 1 or 2 of an odd bolt/nut... Seems like everytime I needed something strange from Fastenal I would have tou buy it in quantities of 25 or more.. :x
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I thought so that's why I mentioned that... Maybe you are lucky and someone swapped in a later engine...
12mm triple square it is!!! I pulled the gassers head bolts out and i'll have the diesel ones out tomorrow to compare then take to Fastenal.
IF you end up going to Fastenall let us know what you make out
Will do, Anybody know what sort of specs to ask for in a head bolt?
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Please don't go to them LOL
If you are getting bolts it should be easy for them to get you a socket head cap screw with 12.9 stamped on the head. This certification is stronger than grade 8 and metric 10.9. They should be M12x1.75 thread. If you are looking for studs I don't think fastenal will have anything for you.
MSC has SPS unbrako, but fastenal doesn't :D . At MSC though you will pay 10 times what they are worth and still no studs.
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Please don't go to them LOL
I know you said you sell "nuts and bolts" but you also said you're "waiting on an answer..." about supplying head bolts. I assumed that meant you didn't sell head bolts but maybe you were just saying you don't carry SPS unbrako's just yet...? Do you have a website? How much for quality head bolts shipped to 83440? Sell any other vw parts or just fastener type stuff?
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Well SHIZ!!!!!
finally got good enough weather again to do my HG swap and the bolts won't fit. I think I understand now what you were saying Maxfax. Triple square 11mm's? Is that what I have?
-gasser head bolt
-my used diesel engine bolt
-new bolts
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SfAICZHJ72I/AAAAAAAACHI/LMHbfGNmVHA/s800/DSC08959.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SfAIF1Os4KI/AAAAAAAACHQ/7ks2gMLsibQ/s800/DSC08960.JPG)
as you can see in the above pix, the gasser ones (top) all have that step-up right after the threads whereas the diesel ones i removed (middle) and the newly purchased ones (bottom) don't.
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That is what you have, but that ain;t right.. The 11mm diesels all had allen heads.. I pulled a few apart with repeat HG failures and found 11mm triple square bolts. THe issue was they used gasser bolts..
Someone put the wrong thing in there at some point.. You're top bolt is kinda interesting though.. Alot beefier than the one out of your diesel...
At this point you need to inspect around the bolt holes in your block very closely for cracks.. Generally these things don;t crack from running but from torquing the thing during reassembly..
I'm gonna plead and beg, sell a kidney and get the head studs.. Here's a fun little story about why-
My current 81 daily driver.. The PO replaced the HG and it blew in about 5000 miles.. I bought it ($50 Yeah!) I yanked the head and sent it to be refurbed.. WHen I got it back I cleaned the block looked for cracks, chased all the hole with a tap and blew them out. Last step of the torque procedure on the last bolt there was an eerie sound and the bolt got real loose..
Round two.. Grabbed another engine from my pile o parts.. Had this block magnafluxed. It was good to go.. Another gasket and another set of bolts to be safe.. Put it together and worked great.. Put 1000 miles on it and did the retorque.. Oil in the coolant almost right away.. Pulled the head, block was cracked at the bolt hole where the oil goes up to the head.. I did manage to baby another 20K out of it by installing head studs with thread sealer but it's back to spewing oil to the coolant..
I'm in the process of building another engine right now.. 12mm this time 8) At this point I have far more than the cost of head studs in a boat anchor..
Interestingly enough the original HG tossed it's cookies in my former Frankenbunny right after the above ordeal.. I used head studs right from the getgo.. The new owner has about 40K on the thing now..
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yeah... I think I might... we'll be getting more back on our refund than anticipated so I'll probably just order those and see what I can do about returning these bolts for credit on something else...
THANKS!!!
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The step-up on the top bolt indicates that that bolt was manufactured by cutting the threads with some sort of cutting tool.
The other two with the reduced section have been manufactured by "rolling" the threads. It's an extrusion process rather than cutting and results in greater thread strength.
Burly isn't always good. Apple to apples, the rolled threads will out perform the cut threads.
Chris
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Ahhh that makes sense... Thanks for the info Lucky....
79rabbit4dr If I had my new engine ready I'd sell you the set of studs out of my old one dirty cheap.... Probably gonna be several weeks till that happens though.. Hoping the new pistons will get here tomorrow so I can get it bored next week... I need to decide whether I'm gonna recycle the crankshaft out of the one I'm running or get the one turned out of the engine I'm rebuilding... I don;t have time or money so I'm still on the fence..
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Please don't go to them LOL
I know you said you sell "nuts and bolts" but you also said you're "waiting on an answer..." about supplying head bolts. I assumed that meant you didn't sell head bolts but maybe you were just saying you don't carry SPS unbrako's just yet...? Do you have a website? How much for quality head bolts shipped to 83440? Sell any other vw parts or just fastener type stuff?
sorry I didn't see that earlier. I do sell SPS Unbrako, but since I am working nonstop to make money I haven't had much time to push our rep to get me some info. There is a ton of it on there site, but no part #s to say send me this stud. I have talked with them and emailed but no luck yet. If I don't get an answer soon I might have to go ARP for my engine, but I should be able to find something with 190,000psi like the ARP stuff. Heck the AKI guy that always posts on Turbo J's build makes his own...I also have a machine shop that will do custom fasteners, but doesn't really want to do just 10 for my engine.
If you are really interested in the SPS stuff, I can call for a "customer" and they usually get right on it, but if it is for me they blow me off still. Maybe I should buy 100 studs and just become a vendor :D
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What I think would be interesting to find is a stud with 12mm threads to go into the block but tapers down to allow the use of an 11mm head.. I know they would have to be installed before the head, and to R&I the head on an MKI the manifolds woudl have to be removed..
I have about 3 or 4 11mm heads that I feel are useable (or at least refurbishable) but no more 11mm blocks... I'm not real crazy about drilling out the head...
Or is there somthing like this out there already?
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79rabbit4dr If I had my new engine ready I'd sell you the set of studs out of my old one dirty cheap....
how 'bout I send you my used 11mm bolts and you can run those in place of the studs - which you'll promptly sell/ship to me on the cheapitty. If it's only a couple weeks, what's the big deal, right? :idea: :lol:
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Called ARP (800) 826-3045 - Ron gave me some info:
the measurements on the ARP head stud Part # 204-4701 are M11x1.5 and 4.65 inches long.
So...
I stuck a thin rod down there and measured the depth with the head (& gasket) in place and got 4.25 inches. So if the studs are 4.65 that should give me at least 0.4 - 0.5 inches for the washer and nut assuming gasket squish and that fact that the stud won't thread in the block as far as the rod went - due to the shape of the hole.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SfISdSIf_6I/AAAAAAAACIQ/BbsmCvWIzbE/s800/DSC08963.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SfISaHUio7I/AAAAAAAACHs/WVF7UZxLr70/s800/DSC08965.JPG)
now to find them at a good price :cry:
EDIT:
Summit has them in stock $111.95, shipping out of Nevada (close to me) will get here by tuesday, SOLD!
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[quote="79rabbit4dr]how 'bout I send you my used 11mm bolts and you can run those in place of the studs - which you'll promptly sell/ship to me on the cheapitty. If it's only a couple weeks, what's the big deal, right? :idea: :lol:[/quote]
LOL I ain't touchin anything on that car till the new engine is done.. I was hoping to have the other car together before the Rabbit takes a poo (of course I wasn;t intending on it taking a poo) So it's my only ride next to the golf cart. I would have scavanged the crank out of it otherwise..
I think Summit is the reining cham on the best price for ARP head studs, pretty fast shipping too.. I think I got my one set from them, the other from billy bo bob on Ebay.. Took weeks for them to get here...