VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: wil892 on October 27, 2011, 04:21:48 pm
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Hi guys
I know i've had a few threads about certain parts of this engine but I thought it might be best to have one thread I can report and ask questions about rebuilding my engine.
Basically I have an 80hp 1.6l Turbo diesel engine, made in 1991 code SB. Here is a list of what I am doing to the engine:
Block:
Bored 0.5mm over
Kolbenschmidt 0.5mm OS turbo diesel pistons with rings
Standard new KS main bearings, with new KS separate thrust washers
Standard new KS con rod bearings
Febi new con rod bolts
Elring gasket kit
Head:
8 new guides
4 new Genuine exhaust valves
Seats recut
4 new AE turbo diesel prechambers
Head faced, prechambers faced to protrude slightly from head
new elring stem seals
new valve cotters
My first question is about the con rod bolts. I know they are stetch bolts hence replacing them, but I am reading a lot about having the rods re sized. I sort of understand what this is but don't know if it is necessary on this engine if I am just replacing the bolts with Febi stretch bolts rather than ARPs. Is re sizing generally expensive?
The machine shop who is doing all the work has said the intermediate bearings look fine and he wouldnt replace them. There is no flaking or rough areas, only polishing on the loaded side. I never overtighten belts so wonder if its better to just leave it as is?
I will get some pictures up soon, and will be updating as I start to build the engine up. I've put a LOT of money into this engine as I would like this to be a very long term car, so I am pretty nervous about putting it all together. There will no doubt be a lot of small (maybe silly) questions, even though I always search first!
Here are some pictures of the car:
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/PC183127.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/P8273354.jpg)
helper
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/P8273386.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/P8273362.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/P8273382.jpg)
Will
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Beautiful cat.
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Nice! Just wondering what the thing just above the oil filter is that has an electrical connection? Do the GTD have an auxilary water pump or is that something else?
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Haha thanks, yeah his name is Harris, he's a character!
The GTD has a water cooled turbo, it has a sensor on the turbo which turns on an auxilary electric water pump when it reaches 110 degrees I think. It usually runs for 5-10 minutes after I turn off the car.
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Ok quick update
I'm getting the block and head back tomorrow, the head will be built up but the block is bare. It has been bored, and is being hot tanked tomorrow morning before I pick it up. Obviously the hot tank will remove the machining swarf but i'm not expecting it to be clinically clean.
My plan is to take it in to work where we have a compressed air line and a parts washer. I will wash it with the parts washer first, rinse it with brake cleaner, then wd-40 it and use crank wipes to clean it. I will then brake cleaner it again, use compressed air, and finally wd40 the bores and journals before I transport it back home.
Does this sound sufficient? I have never prepped a block before so I don't know what to expect really, just not wanting to screw it up!
Will get some pictures
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I'd leave the intermediate bearings. The engine is clearly still happy with them after 160000 miles, and not likely to change much. Let's hope all this cleaning is worth it. Don't let something else catch you out.
Check condition of the clutch cable. This one is unique, and aftermarket sends you to the non intercooled versions which don't fit. VW were selling them quite cheap. Get one and hold it in reserve. push grease up the old one. Remember VW designed this as LHD.
Does the front just bolt on? Alas Quantum/mk2 Passats are welded.
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What I do (working at an auto machine shop) Is first clean the bores with a water based cleaner (like simply green) to clean any vomit left from the part washer (hot tank) then i wipe them down with Acetone. I have in other places used hot soapy water with good results.(I have a co-worker that swears by using ATF) The finish test is wiping with WD-40 on a clean lint free paper towel-keep doing it till the rag comes up clean (no grey on it.) Your method sounds fine. You can never get a cylinder too clean.
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Thanks mark, yes i'm being quite proactive trying to reduce the number of things that could potentially wreck havok with this very expensive bit of metal! The cable was actually a new one from VW a few years ago, as the previous owner serviced it there for its whole life. and yes the front just bolts on and off, which is great!
Great info on the cleaning. It turns out I can use the mecwash here at work which is basically a giant block washing machine, and its all filtered, so i'm sending it through at for 40 minutes then will give it the WD-40 cylinder check.
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Has anyone replaced the conrod bolts? If so what was their method and did you find the rods needed resizing afterwards?
The machine shop said they would not replace them, however I have bought some new FEBI ones and am quite tempted to fit them for piece of mind.
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I replaced mine with ARP's-we're a dealer + they were cheap enough. There seems to be debate that there are either 2 different bolts--or at least 2 different listings in the Bentley-between a "stretch" bolt and a reusable one. ALL BOLTS STRETCH-THATS WHAT PROVIDES CLAMPING FORCE! The question is are they made to stretch + return the original length--or stretch once -like the head bolts.
The ARP's are a little large for the holes in the rods-I think i left 1 bolt in + silightly reamed the other hole-tightened + did the same for the other bolt. The rods are pretty beefy-they really shouldn't move with new bolts installed BUT..... Ask you machinist to just measure the big ends after you put the bolts in and torque them (should only be a couple of bucks) if they are still round + to size, leave'em alone.
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I ALL BOLTS STRETCH-THATS WHAT PROVIDES CLAMPING FORCE!
I agree wíth what you are saying, except for the above, which has me confused.
My understanding is that stretch is what limits the clamping force, and especially plastic stretch which halts it. Friction of the wedge of the threads is what holds the bolt, without which the bolt would undo, hence Loctite...
Crikey I'm turning into 'Eraserhead', or was it Eraser-thread ;)
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picture 2 bolts-one mint clean + oiled--and one rusted to hell. You screw the clean one in by finger till it bottoms--the rusted one you need a wrench + some force to turn it. You get down to the last 2 threads + you really have to crank on the rusty bolt. Now you put 30 lbs force on both. 20 of the 30 lbs on the rusty one is just overcoming friction--which has more clamping force? you have 30 lbs on both. That 30 lbs on the clean bolt went into stretching the bolt.
According to a tech I talked to at ARP about rod bolt torque-"I dont care if you use peanut butter as a lube-and tighten with a monkey wrench -stretch is the ONLY thing that matters".
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http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Preloading.html
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The proper stretch of bolts, especially rod bolts, is what keeps them from breaking. ARP doesn't even recommend tightening the rod bolts to a certain torque value. Instead, they recommend the much more accurate and meaningful method of measuring the rod bolt length before install and the tightening it until it reaches the proper stretch by measuring it's length with a micrometer or similar device. On removal, if the bolt is permanently stretched greater than .001" it is no longer good and may break if used again.
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Just a quick update to this. I got the engine back from machining, it looks brilliant!
Heres what they did:
Block:
Bored 0.5mm oversize
Plateau honed
Cleaned in heated engine pressure wash
Con rods had new bolts installed and resized
Head:
New prechambers fitted (see my other thread)
8 New guides
Valve seats recut
new stem seals
Very very slightly faced
I'll be building the engine in the coming weeks so no doubt some silly questions will be asked!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/202e6227.jpg)
original paint!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/681c2530.jpg)
plateau honed
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/a5cfc98c.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/53f753d0.jpg)
head face
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/0be06d71.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/33d9c46c.jpg)
slightly rust conrods(will be cleaned)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/Golf%20Rebuild/80867bb5.jpg)
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Wil, I know you said that the machine shop said the Aux bearings were OK, was that before or after the block cleaning? I was just wondering whether a heated detergent solution was used or was it a heated caustic solution. If it was a caustic solution your aux drive bearings are most likely trash and need to be replaced. In any case look them over really good before assembly just in case. I don't know the standard procedure in UK or the Enviro rules, thats why I ask.
BlueMule
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Hi
Ok so its engine build weekend coming up but I’ve got a few questions to make sure this thing goes together well! So if anyone can answer any individual question, please do! This is my first engine build so I’m going to be confident, but that continual voice telling me how much money this engine has cost will certainly be lingering!
1) Main bearing caps, I know the Bentley says which way the numbers go, but is it correct. Will it be obvious which orientation to install them?
2) Thrust bearings: I have the separate thrust bearings on recommendation from numerous sources all over the internet, but is there a recommended way to install them. I have read the crank may need striking with a rubber mallet at each end to properly align the crank with the thrust bearings, any truth to this?
3) Con rods: which way round are they installed, or does it matter?
4) Main and con rod bolts: are they oiled prior to torquing or should I torque them dry? If I need oil should it be mineral or synthetic?
5) Shaft seals! What is the best way to install these? Load them into the carrier and fit them with the carrier. Or fit the carrier and press the seals in? Are they difficult to get right? I have a complete Elring bottom end and top end gasket kit so they are good quality
6) Assembly lube? For bearings I was thinking of using some Mobil 1 15w50 oil I have sitting around? Or should I use assembly lube like graphogen (recommended by machine shop). The rings and bores will be lubed with some 10w40 semi synthetic oil
I’ll be taking pics at each step, for reference and also to potentially produce a basic pictured walkthrough which the Bentley doesn’t really provide.
Thanks for the help so far!
Bluemule, I checked with the machine shop, the wash was with detergeant not caustic solution, so int bearings are looking good to go.
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I could be wrong, but AFAIK you don't want synthetic oils anywhere near this engine whilst breaking it in, and super slippery stuff not on those bolts in case of over torqueing
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Good point, I've got a bottle of pretty old 15w40 mineral oil I will use for the con rod bolts and mains then. I guess I will use it for installing the pistons as well
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Good point, I've got a bottle of pretty old 15w40 mineral oil I will use for the con rod bolts and mains then. I guess I will use it for installing the pistons as well
Don't forget you want a gallon of multigrade for ring break in, else you'll end up 'French Polishing' the bores, and have to live with eternal oil burning
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I didnt have the wrist pin bushings replaced in the con rods, and now wondering if I should have done. There doesn't seem to a any spec in the Bentley. The machine shop said they had never seen VW bushings need replacing. Do they generally need replacing? Do these pictures tell anything?
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/5716f5ca.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/972ccba0.jpg)
Also I just noticed one of the con rod caps has succumbed to some rust is this a problem? The rods were resized by the shop, and they obviously didnt think it was a problem.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/11a03eb7.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/8273dc45.jpg)
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As for the wrist pins i went and ordered new ks bearings and had a shop press them in and hone them to about .001 slide fit maybe a few tenths more... The machinist looked at me like a bit of a nut for asking for new bushings as the pins from my new ks pistons fit just fine in the old wrist pin bushings, im guessing .001 clearance (no wiggle up down, just slide fit). When i picked them up after being pressed in and honed i noticed the same fit, by feel anyways. The only benefit you might gain by doing this is oil retention due to new hone marks? If you have any lobe pattern worn into the brass bushing due to wear then replacement might be a good idea. Save your money if your new piston pins fit with no up down play... another thing, the pin bushing currently in the rod has been honed nuts on concentric by vw, something a machine shop could screw up if you go get new ones pressed in and honed.. Save your money...
As for the big end of the rod, buy some scotch brite, and by hand just wipe it over the rusty areas on the surface where the bearing shell sits. Go easy on the scoth brite, just take the rust off.
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I am not a proponent of "fixing" things that are not broken. You almost certainly went backward with the wrist pin bushings. They were just fine. You have no way to judge the quality of aftermarket crap. Almost none of it is as good as a used factory part. Almost all of it is made in china.
As far as the big ends go: If you did not have a spun bearing you definitely went backwards. The finish on the big ends is ***. WAY courser than stock stuff with no guarantee of concentricity, taper, center to center length, nor whether the bore center lines are parallel. Sad to say most, so called, "automotive machine shops" are incapable of doing acceptable work and all should be viewed as incompetent until proved otherwise. This comes from 30 years in the automotive trades.
Jason's Rule #2: NEVER fix, repair, or rebuild a part that is not out of spec. It will almost always be worse when you get it back than when you dropped it off.
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Ok I have decided to use the original con rods I took out of the engine, which I will check for out of round after I press in the new bolts. The ones you see in the picture I am just not happy with. I think the caps may be mismatched.
BUT!!! I'm in the process of installing the crank, but it is binding when no4 cap is tightened. I have torqued all the others up and the crank spins lovely, but as soon as no4 is tightned it binds. I then removed all caps, took out the no4 upper bearing and put a used (good condition) one in. Placed the crank and only installed no4 cap with an old (good condition) bearing. I then torqued the bolts and the crank bound again!!
What is going on?
The crank was polished.
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Ok I have decided to use the original con rods I took out of the engine, which I will check for out of round after I press in the new bolts. The ones you see in the picture I am just not happy with. I think the caps may be mismatched.
BUT!!! I'm in the process of installing the crank, but it is binding when no4 cap is tightened. I have torqued all the others up and the crank spins lovely, but as soon as no4 is tightned it binds. I then removed all caps, took out the no4 upper bearing and put a used (good condition) one in. Placed the crank and only installed no4 cap with an old (good condition) bearing. I then torqued the bolts and the crank bound again!!
What is going on?
The crank was polished.
Maybe the old but good bearing is off a crank that is undersized. Ie that bearing is oversized. Remove crank and measure each bearing surface to see if#4 is different If not then try cap off #3. Or shell.
You have marked the caps with a punch, haven't you?
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Old bearing is STD size as are new ones. Crank is binding when all upper bearings are installed but only the no4 cap is put in and torqued. It binds both with the new std size bearing and the old std sized bearing. Don't understand it.
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Make sure the cap is on the correct way around, first. Second make sure that it is the cap off of that block. They can not be interchanged. Then platigauge the main bearings to see the actual clearance on #4. Pull the crank and bearings and instal the #4 cap and inspect the parting line. It should have .000" of overhang/mismatch and should be smooth and not catch a finger nail run across the parting line. Remember that the grooves for the bearing tangs are on the same side, no matter what the number on the cap says.
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Ok. The I just checked, and the cap is definately on the right way round. I can see the tang marks from its original position. The cap is the only main no4 bearing cap I have so unless the machine shop somehow mixed them up with another block.
Unfortunately I haven't got a plastigauge kit (yes stupid) I can try and find one here in the uk.
I pulled the crank and all bearings and fitted the no4 cap, it seems to fit in a number of positions. I can see the original position of the cap, shown here
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/e28332aa.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/5d40eac9.jpg)
It seems that when the cap is torqued down it pushes the crank down on to all the upper bearings.
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I cannot see the assembly lube and how are you trying to turn it? IIRC mine turned but turned very hard with all new stuff and very tight tolerances. Without the lube I wouldn't want to turn it too much anyway. The lube should make it easier to rotate.
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I'm using 10w40 engine oil to lube it all (lots of it). Basically with all caps torqued the crank spins on the oil film really nicely. But as soon as the number 4 is torqued down the crank becomes very very hard to turn, so much so it feels like the bearings would be damaged if I continued to turn it. The upper bearings are showing some equal marks from the crank already from this and the lower no4 bearing is showing that the cam is pushing down on one side.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/2377679f.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/e6f4e0c8.jpg)
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Ok. The I just checked, and the cap is definately on the right way round. I can see the tang marks from its original position. The cap is the only main no4 bearing cap I have so unless the machine shop somehow mixed them up with another block.
Unfortunately I haven't got a plastigauge kit (yes stupid) I can try and find one here in the uk.
I pulled the crank and all bearings and fitted the no4 cap, it seems to fit in a number of positions. I can see the original position of the cap, shown here
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/e28332aa.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/5d40eac9.jpg)
It seems that when the cap is torqued down it pushes the crank down on to all the upper bearings.
Plastigauge does not usually come in a kit. It is just a long, thin envelope with a green wax thread inside. You will only need one. It comes in red as well for .002-.006" but you want the green.
What do you mean "it seems to fit in a number of positions"?
If a machine shop had the block, it is possible that they mixed the caps from 2 different blocks. Let then know now since you won't get the cap back if its on another running motor. It is possible that the motor has been line bored sometime in the past with one cap backwards or in the wrong position. I have seen that.
You did not say anything about the parting line with the bearings out. Try swapping the cap 180* and see if it gets better.
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Well the cap can sit slightly either side of where it should sit.
I'm not certain, but here in the uk we usually would just find another engine if one required line boring, so I'm pretty sure this is the first time the engine has been open.
The parting line is very minimal I will get a picture as soon as I can tomorrow. Good idea about swapping them over, though I'm starting to think that a trip back to the machine shop is in order. Nothing is ever simple!
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i think line hone cost me 150cdn.. i had the same issue when i got to around 40ftlbs on one of the caps... and by measuring with an inside mic i was able to tell that a few areas had gone oval... so it does happen. but rare im told.
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I think it is more likely that the block is warped. It does not have to be much to bind the crank. I might be tempted to scrape the bearing to get a good fit. I had to do that on a Peugeot diesel I rebuilt. It turned out that one of the caps had been machine backward, so it bound up in the "correct" position.
Try installing the #4 cap on backward and see if the fit is better. You should not be able to catch a fingernail in either direction at the parting line on either side.
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I think I might have found the problem. Looks like the cap may have been banged slightly when on the block. One side of the cap seat seems to be indented and I think when the cap gets torqued down it cocks and presses the bearing down to the left. Which the lower bearing would indicate.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/546e6787.jpg)
Now. Does this scrap the block or could it be repaired? I'm not wanting to place any blame for this as it was probably my fault for keeping the caps screwed into the block.
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I'll just get in before someone screams scrap the block... ::)
I'd be tempted to use an old fashoned razorblade as a shim
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It would be silly to scrap the block when all that it needs is a line bore. It is hard to tell from the picture but it looks like that end of the cap was loose and worked back and forth against the block, wearing both slightly. If I were you (and I am hyper cheap) I might just get that bearing scraped to fit. It is the kind of job old time machinists did all of the time when fitting shafts to babbit bearings. It might be best if you could find a retire machinist to do it for you.
You could theoretically shim the cap but finding shim stock in the sub .003" range might be difficult. The other issue is that if you go even slightly too large you lose the "crush" on the bearing shell and then it will spin under a heavy load destroying the motor.
I think you need to mic the bore with a .0001" inside mic to see how much it is out of round. If it is too small it might be putting too much "crush" on the bearing shell and causing it to ripple and pull away from the bore. One could, given sufficient skill, trim the edge of the bearing at the parting line to gain clearance. BUT you won't have any idea what is happeing until you mic the bores.
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It would be silly to scrap the block when all that it needs is a line bore. It is hard to tell from the picture but it looks like that end of the cap was loose and worked back and forth against the block, wearing both slightly. If I were you (and I am hyper cheap) I might just get that bearing scraped to fit. It is the kind of job old time machinists did all of the time when fitting shafts to babbit bearings. It might be best if you could find a retire machinist to do it for you.
You could theoretically shim the cap but finding shim stock in the sub .003" range might be difficult. The other issue is that if you go even slightly too large you lose the "crush" on the bearing shell and then it will spin under a heavy load destroying the motor.I think you need to mic the bore with a .0001" inside mic to see how much it is out of round. If it is too small it might be putting too much "crush" on the bearing shell and causing it to ripple and pull away from the bore. One could, given sufficient skill, trim the edge of the bearing at the parting line to gain clearance. BUT you won't have any idea what is happeing until you mic the bores.
I think you are over worrying...
From the Bentley rag mag:
Main bearing clearance: As new 0.6 to 3 thou. Wear limit 6 thou!
Big end from new: 0.6 to 2 thou. Wear limit 5 thou.
Thus with a bearing with no clearance, a razor blade being 2 thou would be perfect. High carbon steel etc...
Interestingly oil flow rate range is up to 10x that of a tight fit engine, on an engine reaching allowable limit. That must give a wide range on oil pressures and so a low tolerance engine also has cooler bearings, and hence can run like an old banger, but keep going
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I think you are over worrying...
From the Bentley rag mag:
Main bearing clearance: As new 0.6 to 3 thou. Wear limit 6 thou!
Big end from new: 0.6 to 2 thou. Wear limit 5 thou.
Thus with a bearing with no clearance, a razor blade being 2 thou would be perfect. High carbon steel etc...
Interestingly oil flow rate range is up to 10x that of a tight fit engine, on an engine reaching allowable limit. That must give a wide range on oil pressures and so a low tolerance engine also has cooler bearings, and hence can run like an old banger, but keep going.
I think you need to get your mic calibrated. A razor blade is more like .010" or better. That is a huge amount to add to a bearing bore and you will end up with "full floating" mains.
At .006" bottom end clearance you will end up with audible main knocks. That is way too much clearance to run on a street car. Keeping sufficient oil pressure will also be a problem with a warm engine. At .005" clearance on a rod you will also get a rap big time on start up until the oil pressure comes up and a rap while lifting off of the loud pedal. Oil pressure will also be low.
You can run these kinds of clearances for a while, but probably not long term. The longest I have ever run a motor that loose was about 3000 miles. After that they were someone elses problem.
He needs to mic the bores with a .0001 mic so he knows what is wrong. It takes almost no twist in the block to make your stock clearances go away. A line bore is cheap if that or cap wear are the issues. Scraping the mains is even cheaper. BUT first you need to know what the problem is.
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I think you are over worrying...
From the Bentley rag mag:
Main bearing clearance: As new 0.6 to 3 thou. Wear limit 6 thou!
Big end from new: 0.6 to 2 thou. Wear limit 5 thou.
Thus with a bearing with no clearance, a razor blade being 2 thou would be perfect. High carbon steel etc...
Interestingly oil flow rate range is up to 10x that of a tight fit engine, on an engine reaching allowable limit. That must give a wide range on oil pressures and so a low tolerance engine also has cooler bearings, and hence can run like an old banger, but keep going.
I think you need to get your mic calibrated. A razor blade is more like .010" or better. That is a huge amount to add to a bearing bore and you will end up with "full floating" mains.
At .006" bottom end clearance you will end up with audible main knocks. That is way too much clearance to run on a street car. Keeping sufficient oil pressure will also be a problem with a warm engine. At .005" clearance on a rod you will also get a rap big time on start up until the oil pressure comes up and a rap while lifting off of the loud pedal. Oil pressure will also be low.
You can run these kinds of clearances for a while, but probably not long term. The longest I have ever run a motor that loose was about 3000 miles. After that they were someone elses problem.
He needs to mic the bores with a .0001 mic so he knows what is wrong. It takes almost no twist in the block to make your stock clearances go away. A line bore is cheap if that or cap wear are the issues. Scraping the mains is even cheaper. BUT first you need to know what the problem is.
Forget line boring.
Toby you're on fire but when you go up against me get your facts right. ::)
Scroll down the page of this link until you find double edged razor blades. Then read off the thickness. I've never shaved with a single edged craft blade, but perhaps you have! I'm willing to bet that full torque will loose another thou or two also...
http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/preparation/blades.aspx
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Don't be changing your story now: You said a razor blade is .002". Your interwebs site says .004". If you actually mic one it will be bigger than that. They are saying single edge razor blades are .009" which is about 1/2 of what they really are.
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Don't be changing your story now: You said a razor blade is .002". Your interwebs site says .004". If you actually mic one it will be bigger than that. They are saying single edge razor blades are .009" which is about 1/2 of what they really are.
Looks like you better get a better mic if it always reads high ;)
Haveing said that, different makers probably use different spec sheeting, which may be useful, see below last para.
My 'off the head' error, means that the double edged blade is better than I thought. The binding cap may not just be zero, but could possibly be negative.
All said and done, the proof in the pudding is in the eating, so for the sake of a few penny's [cents] trying a double edged razor as a shim, will either work or not.
They do make good additional shims for injectors, along with pieces of tape measure spring, so they will remain in my toolbox.
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You could give the razor blades a whirl and plastigauge it, would only cost a few cents as noted above! They also make a product called locksmith shim stock that comes as thin as .001 if you find razor blades are too large. You should be able to find a combo that works.
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You are barking up the wrong tree here. Until you know WHY it is binding taking any course of action is likely to result in disaster. Just shimming the cap with a razor blade will result in 2 things: 1) It will likely get the crank to turn freely, and 2) increase the bore size to the point where all of the "crush" that holds the main bearing in the journal will be lost. There will be NOTHING to keep the main bearing from spinning, destroying the block and the crank. Only the "crush" hold an insert bearing, The tab is just to locate the bearing; nothing more.
There are at least 6 possible reasons why the crank binds.
1) the crank itself is bent,
2) the block is twisted a very small amount,
3) the main bearing bore is too small, (possibly due to wear at the parting line)
4) the cap is not seating correctly,
5) the cap is on backward, (I have seen a cap that was marked on the wrong side)
6) the main bearing is is incorrectly sized.
Shimming the cap will cure none of these. What it may well do is to convince you that you have fixed the problem. Then when you put the motor together and in a car, it will last from minutes to hours before it is rendered useless.
Now on the other hand if you fix the problem, (whatever that may be), you should be able to get 100k miles out of that same motor. Take the block and crank to the machine shop and have them figure out the problem. They will have the mics and the know how to FIX the problem.
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All this doom ad gloom :(. The bearing won't spin if the bearing is acting as it should and not binding. Bearing will only spin if it is binding/seizing onto the crank.
It will only do this if it is 1) starved of oil, or
2) not starved of oil supply but too tight to allow enough oil to flow, or
3) In an extreme case, starvation has led to shell wear to the point that it can fold under the other half, or
4) anything else forgotten.
If the 'shim' reaches part way into bearing edge, then any crushing by the cap onto the bearing will continue.
Why would it need line boring?
I can't imagine how much that would cost here in the UK, then the bore will be oval, or special components required.
This is not a new engine, so what had the engine been doing previously, other than running? This is surely a recently introduced problem.
If it was a preexisting issue that was overcome somehow, by some P.O. then again there has been something introduced, possibly by mixing components, or someones overzealous use of an air hammer ratchet thingy.
I would try a paper shim under the one side you believe to be overtightened. Just to see if it works. A dial gauge to check for a bent crank might help reassure you, but I don't think it's the issue
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All this doom ad gloom :(. The bearing won't spin if the bearing is acting as it should and not binding. Bearing will only spin if it is binding/seizing onto the crank.
It will only do this if it is 1) starved of oil, or
2) not starved of oil supply but too tight to allow enough oil to flow, or
3) In an extreme case, starvation has led to shell wear to the point that it can fold under the other half, or
4) anything else forgotten.
If the 'shim' reaches part way into bearing edge, then any crushing by the cap onto the bearing will continue.
Why would it need line boring?
I can't imagine how much that would cost here in the UK, then the bore will be oval, or special components required.
This is not a new engine, so what had the engine been doing previously, other than running? This is surely a recently introduced problem.
If it was a preexisting issue that was overcome somehow, by some P.O. then again there has been something introduced, possibly by mixing components, or someones overzealous use of an air hammer ratchet thingy.
I would try a paper shim under the one side you believe to be overtightened. Just to see if it works. A dial gauge to check for a bent crank might help reassure you, but I don't think it's the issue
You are truly a fount of mis-information.
The bearing being loose in the bore will certainly cause it to spin. It does not have to be seized to the crank, although that will do it.
As for shimming the bearing insert as well, that might work, but then again you won't know unless you mic everything and check main bore alignment, like I have been advocating.
I think you also need to read up on what line boring is. You clearly have no idea what it is if you think it will result in oval shaped bores. BTW don't you guys ever rebuild AC VWs? Almost all rebuilds get a case line bore. Look at a AC VW bearing catalog sometime. The list undersizes for the inside and ovesizes for the outside of the bearing since shaving the case mating halves is not practical.
It is not too uncommon to find this kind of bind in old motors. If the block has twisted, it may well have only done so when the head and main bearing caps were removed. Or is may have happened so slowly that the mains "wore in" as it happened. I have seen both.
The reason for the doom and gloom is that I have built enough motors to know what you can and can not get away with. Guessing as to the problem and devising a "fix" based on that guess, can be an interesting intellectual exercise, but wasting all that time and money based on a guess is foolish when figuring out the problem guaranties success. But its your nickel. Just don't whine later if you "teenager" fix does not work.
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All this doom ad gloom :(. The bearing won't spin if the bearing is acting as it should and not binding. Bearing will only spin if it is binding/seizing onto the crank.
It will only do this if it is 1) starved of oil, or
2) not starved of oil supply but too tight to allow enough oil to flow, or
3) In an extreme case, starvation has led to shell wear to the point that it can fold under the other half, or
4) anything else forgotten.
If the 'shim' reaches part way into bearing edge, then any crushing by the cap onto the bearing will continue.
Why would it need line boring?
I can't imagine how much that would cost here in the UK, then the bore will be oval, or special components required.
This is not a new engine, so what had the engine been doing previously, other than running? This is surely a recently introduced problem.
If it was a preexisting issue that was overcome somehow, by some P.O. then again there has been something introduced, possibly by mixing components, or someones overzealous use of an air hammer ratchet thingy.
I would try a paper shim under the one side you believe to be overtightened. Just to see if it works. A dial gauge to check for a bent crank might help reassure you, but I don't think it's the issue
You are truly a fount of mis-information.
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color=blue]I think you mean font...[/color]
The bearing being loose in the bore will certainly cause it to spin. It does not have to be seized to the crank, although that will do it.
As for shimming the bearing insert as well, that might work, but then again you won't know unless you mic everything and check main bore alignment, like I have been advocating.
I've said running limits from VAG allow upto 6 thou bearing to crank clearance. I never said bearing to clamp should be slack.Whatever the clamping force is currently would be maintained by adding a 'shim' across bearing and holder. Paper shim is just to check for improvement. To go to unneccessary expense of line boring and finding bearing inserts here in the UK is a joke. Bearing cap will surely be weakened, or is that an allowable compromise?
I think you also need to read up on what line boring is. You clearly have no idea what it is if you think it will result in oval shaped bores. BTW don't you guys ever rebuild AC VWs? Almost all rebuilds get a case line bore. Look at a AC VW bearing catalog sometime. The list undersizes for the inside and ovesizes for the outside of the bearing since shaving the case mating halves is not practical.
Sorry, are you saying you can by oversize and undesized bearings or are you saying you can buy shell bearings that are are bored offset as well as oversizes or undersized in their bearing surface? The The latter would be interesting but then direction of offset would need to be known
t is not too uncommon to find this kind of bind in old motors. If the block has twisted, it may well have only done so when the head and main bearing caps were removed. Or is may have happened so slowly that the mains "wore in" as it happened. I have seen both.
As an ignorant 'teenager' ::); please explain how a main bearing wears in tighter, and indeed this in this case so that clamping with this bearing alone results in binding.
The reason for the doom and gloom is that I have built enough motors to know what you can and can not get away with. Guessing as to the problem and devising a "fix" based on that guess, can be an interesting intellectual exercise, but wasting all that time and money based on a guess is foolish when figuring out the problem guaranties success. But its your nickel. Just don't whine later if you "teenager" fix does not work.
[Sounds like you've built more engines than I have. I've not built lots, but they do accumulate over a period of nearly 40 years of doing so, mostly not for others , but for myself, family, and a few for friends. But this is where our dissimilarities increase further. I have never had an engine fail from anything I've ever done, but compare and contrast with your preceding comment...
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Thanks for all the responses! I had some time to consider them all, and then decided to take it to a engine machining shop, who measured all the main bearing journals. Sure enough the no4 was tight, not by much though.
So he has line honed the journals, and rechecked the diameters. I have not seen the block yet because i'm working, but when I get home i'll be cleaning it all up and reinstalling the crank, AND checking with plastigauge to check all the clearances are fine.
Clearances on the other bearings were perfect at about 0.032mm.
Fingers crossed anyway, i'm not sure how many more hicups I can take!!
On the upside I wasnt happy with the conrods that I intended to use as I thought the caps may have been mismatched even though they were subsequently made perfectly round. So I decided to use the conrods which came out of this engine, and I managed to get them all checked out on our uber cool Mitutoyo CMM machine at work. I don't have the numbers with me but they were all great, we even measured the wrist pin bushings and they were fine as well which is great.
Will hopefully be able to update this with a postive build just after christmas!
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Well that's a relief, so a relaxed Christmas for you then.
Did the shop have any suggestions as to why it had become tight?
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Well finally I have built the bottom end of this engine. I'm pleased to say the crank spins and plastigauge says i'm right in the middle of new bearing clearances, which is great!
I've installed the pistons and torqued everything, and have just measured the piston protrusion.
The piston protrusion is showing 0.69mm which is at the lower end of 1 hole annoyingly as the UK only seems to keep 3 notch headgaskets (we must be lazy) in stock. I will be using new stock FEBI headbolts, would using an AAZ 1 notch gasket cause problems? My deck surface does have some small pits round some of the coolant holes which makes me want to use a 1.6 fibre one.
A fibre one will have to be sourced from the dealers so looking at £30 :(
PS. Mark the shop didn't say what could have caused it, it was such a small amount. They just said well its an old engine these things happen. But i'm happy it now spins great. It was a relaxed christmas as well! I hope everyone elses was
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A 2 hole hydraulic for £15...http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-VW-1-6-Diesel-Payen-Head-Gasket-BN950-80-90-GOLF-CADDY-PASSAT-JETTA-/270864980346?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f10cf997a
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Ok just to update the situation on the head gasket, I managed to fine a genuine 1 hole gasket after a lot of searching so that was good. I have taken photos of the build and will be writing it up.
BUT!!!
Today it started, I cannot believe it, the first engine I have ever built. It ran on all four cylinders and sounds beautiful. The only issue is that it won't rev, have a look at the video, but there are no bubbles in the fuel line.
The only thing I can think is the brand new injection pump. The pump was bought off ebay, it is a Genuine VW Brand new SB engine injection pump, not a VW exchange unit. The date stamps say 1991 and all the part numbers are exactly the same as the old pump. It obviously flows fuel but won't increase injection quantity. The pump was supplied with all bungs and screws in place and was completely sealed but I am concerned there is something sticking inside the pump. Anyway have a look at the video, its awesome!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/th_1a66ccae.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/?action=view¤t=1a66ccae.mp4)
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Try turning in the max fuel screw by the fuel lines, by a half turn, then if it works adjust to 'taste'
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Ok I will try that, what would that do to allow the pump to increase fueling if it isnt already from the throttle lever? I'm also going to check I didnt put the IN and OUT fuel unions on the wrong way round, as I know the OUT only has a very small hole.
If these don't fix the issue is it likely the injection pump is sticking internally? If so is it best to take it the pump off or would some ATF help?
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Ok I will try that, what would that do to allow the pump to increase fueling if it isnt already from the throttle lever? I'm also going to check I didnt put the IN and OUT fuel unions on the wrong way round, as I know the OUT only has a very small hole.
If these don't fix the issue is it likely the injection pump is sticking internally? If so is it best to take it the pump off or would some ATF help?
As part of ongoing experimentation to get my engine economical round town I unscrewed the max fuel screw. Two things happened I found that idle speed dropped [I reached a point of 250rpm :o], but also somewhere on the way the accelerator lever ceases to function.
I believe it is a gradual, but fairly steep decline where it happens. I could be wrong about the rate of decline of responsiveness though.
I was looking for the lowest rpm that the engine would operate without undue vibration. Whilst it clearly gets worse at lower speeds there are plenty of peaks and troughs in resonant vibration, and they carry on up to 1000rpm and beyond. I think this may deserve a new thread... Engine economy, rpm vibration and tuning for balance. ;D
ATF can work if that is the issue, but if engine starts reasonably easy, then its not sticking lift pump
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Hmm ok, so you're saying due to the fact the engine is starting pretty much instantly there should not be a problem with the internal lift pump.
I was reading a thread that suggested it could be corrosion on the governer shaft.
What baffles me is the lack of any reaction to the throttle lever being moved, there is no change in engine note at all. Just to add there is also no smoke coming from the exhaust.
Could this be an issue with air in the new pump, even though there are no air bubbles coming from the return line.
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I like to take the throttle arm right off the splines, then use small pliers to turn the throttle shaft. Take way you take out the idle limiters and the throttle indexing issue and you can feel if there is resistance internally. I then put the throttle arm back on without the springs and find the best position for the arm in relation to the cable end and the idle/max position adjustment screws. Mark the position on the arm and splines, an install with the springs. That's if it revs properly with the pliers.
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Hmm ok, so you're saying due to the fact the engine is starting pretty much instantly there should not be a problem with the internal lift pump.
I was reading a thread that suggested it could be corrosion on the governer shaft.
What baffles me is the lack of any reaction to the throttle lever being moved, there is no change in engine note at all. Just to add there is also no smoke coming from the exhaust.
Could this be an issue with air in the new pump, even though there are no air bubbles coming from the return line.
It could be something nasty and complex, but it's worth trying the max fuel screw. Move it back if no change. 5 minute job.
It's even caught a few out who are no fools, ask Reg ;)
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Update!
So I swapped over to my original pump and the engine revved perfectly, so I'm using that. I need to put more photos up but so far the engine has 450 miles on it. First oil change at about 10 miles, and second at 40 miles. Am running Shell Rimula R3 X 15w40 at the moment.
The rings seemed to seat basically instantly. Over 400 miles on this oil there is no movement on the dipstick and the car has awesome compression. It will start first revolution even with one or two seconds glow plugs from cold. I'm also getting crazy good MPG, about 55mpg which is so much better than it used to be and the engine runs slightly cooler, takes a bit longer to warm up and doesnt get hot going up hills.
Ok so this sounds perfect at the moment... Well the only concern I have is a sort of lifter chatter when the engine is cold. Basically the valvetrain just sounds noisy when it is cold, when the oil is hot it seems fine although maybe slight chatter at 1800rpm if slowing down on overrun.
There is no 'ticking' as such and the noise is not there at idle, its only when I pull away and the engine is cold say I take the revs up to 2000rpm the top end just sounds noisy, not how it used to sound (have always had hydraulic lifters). I've checked the oil pressure, and when fully hot I have 1bar at 1000rpm and 2.2bar at 2000rpm, so to me that seems fine considering I have hydraulic lifters. I have also visually inspected the lifters and cam and they are not scored and seem to be getting plenty of oiling.
I've checked the cam/crank timing and fuel timing and they are fine. Its hard to describe and it could be a noise not related to lifters.
If anyone has experienced something that sounds similar I would be really grateful to hear as its all thats standing in the way of me being totally confident in this engine.
Will
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did you figure out what the ticking noise was?, I have the same problem with mine. Paolo
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Not really! It wasn't really ticking though, more of a chatter. It has disappeared now the engine has 8000 miles on it though