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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Smokey Eddy on October 07, 2011, 02:28:56 pm
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I recently aquired a roommate who also drives a VW diesel! So we are interested in going WVO.
Can anyone suggest or reccomend any builds on the filtering process, additives/treatment and how to go about heating the tank?
also, thoughts on having a very small diesel tank to switch from for starting on cold(-20C) mornings.
All input, including unsupportive (and reasons why), are welcome!
ps. I changed the seals in my injection pump 4-5 years ago and they were "WVO safe". Does my friend need to worry about seals swelling?
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I need a little More cash and I'm going wmo.. Motor not vegetable oil!
Filter, by far, is this: http://pabiodieselsupply.com/shop/wvo-centrifuge-wmo-centrifuge-55gph-p-126.html
That will filter booth wvo and wmo down to a micron with multiple passes. It's a one time investment.. Requires no filter elements, etc.
You will need something to run it tho.. I'll be using a washin machine motor drivin a power steerin pump off an old ford
the washin machine motor was free (go to lowe's if ya'll have that; they will have a trailer round back with all the old washin machine trade ins, and it's rarely locked.. within 5 minutes you can kick one over and steal the motor.) and the power steering pump was free, so my only investment will be the $160 for the centrifuge, and 20 bucks for 2 55 gallon drums off craigslist. so for almost $200, i'll be able to endlessly filter wvo/wmo down to 1 micron.. hard-to-beat stats.
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Wow a $200 1 time investment.. I do a lot of oil changes for friends and I keep all their old oil.. Gallon a change.. We'd have a full tank in no time.. Not to mention the amount of places that have to pay to get rid of their oil.. I'd pay them a few bucks to give it to me..
Now say the oil wasn't pure, and had remnants of coolant or other crap in it.. Would the centrifuge also work to filter the water out of the fuel too??
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I believe so yes Jer. If you look at the link there it gives specifics on that centrifuge.
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wdkingery, just noticed our cars share paint jobs ;) yours looks much nicer than mine. I used a really sh!tty sprayer... :( too lazy to re-do it.
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Theory is here http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums)
My CF MUST have 50 c before start(for WMO).
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Sorry, im very ignorant on the subject. mtrans, I don't know what you are saying. What is "CF" and 50 c? Is that temperature? 50 degrees Celcius?
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I recently aquired a roommate who also drives a VW diesel! So we are interested in going WVO.
Can anyone suggest or reccomend any builds on the filtering process, additives/treatment and how to go about heating the tank?
also, thoughts on having a very small diesel tank to switch from for starting on cold(-20C) mornings.
All input, including unsupportive (and reasons why), are welcome!
ps. I changed the seals in my injection pump 4-5 years ago and they were "WVO safe". Does my friend need to worry about seals swelling?
Never needed any additives, Starting with good oil is the key.
Best tank heater is a false bottom with coolant passing through it.
I prefer to not mess with the original fuel system, rather add a second complimentary system.
IMO single tank=begging for trouble. My old heap has as many problems with the diesel side as the veg side, having a switch to flip is great.
I never had issues using filter bags, 3 at once keeps up with a 3.5 HP pump, and takes ~10 min to do 50 gal.
If your friends pump is more than 4-5 years old, they need to worry about the seals and ULSD anyway.
Celebrating my 745th post(http://forums.hbportal.net/images/smilies/ahoy.gif)
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100k sucessful miles on my veggie system. Greasecar kit www.greasecar.com Lots of good info on their forums. (i would suggest getting a kit -you get instructions + tech support. It will shorten the learning curve a bunch. Make your own for your next car.)
My oil sits around in 55 gal drums for as long as i can. then it get poured thru 100 micron bag filters into my (insulated) settling drum. Its heated to 120* with a hot water heater element for 24 hours-then left to sit for another 24. It then gets pumped thru a series of household type water filters -a 10 then 5 then 1--into another barrel. I let it sit a week before pumping out to the car. I get 5k miles on my filters.
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My filtration is about the same as sdwarf's.. Been very pleased with the results over the years.. However after watching a friend's centrifuge at work and seeing the end product I may go that route if I go back to burning WVO and WMO...
I also highly agree with turbogreasel, add the aux fuel system, and let the diesel stuff be.. When fuel went sky high a few years ago my fuel supply almost dried up.. I was very glad to still have the standard diesel tank in place.. I also had issues in severe cold weather keeping everything warm enough (including just the engine) so once again, it was good to have the standard fuel system to fall back on..
I loosely copied my setup from grease car and took some features from a few other systems I've seen out there.. I once again agree with turbogreasel that a tank with a false bottom and coolant circulating though it is the way to go.. Running coils inside the tank is screaming for problems.. I made a round tank that fit nicely in the spare tire well with the fuel fill behind the license place like the old GM's had.. On flaw I did find with this design was that I had the tank vented though the filler cap so that I didn't have to smell the stuff in the car all the time.. However since this vent both left air in and out, I would draw moisture into the tank during very humid weather.. I eventually got a sealed filler cap and ran a vent inside the car and the moisture issue went away..
I managed about 100K from the first Rabbit with no ill effects.. Got tired of the leaky sunroof on that one and bought a nicer one that I ran about another 100+K on WVO and WMO.. The reason I stopped running it was after the block cracked in my current Rabbit it spewed oil into the coolant and gunked all the heat exchangers up.. Fortunately I kept my suppliers and continued collecting WVO for when/if I ever get around to fixing car.. It burns quite nice in my waste oil furnace...
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Good points on fill and venting...
If you have to do an extra 10 hours of work to get external fill, it is worth it.
If you pour veg oil over carpet, you are a sucker.
Never seen a kit with proper venting.
very few kit have a baffled tank, esp bad in Benzes.
If your kit comes with plastic coolant fittings, make a list, and throw them in the trash. Plastic has a 100% failure rate in coolant(yes OEMs do use it, often on $300 frequently failing parts).
Do not use copper with veg, green slime!
Every kit I've seen requires at least $100 in upgrade fittings at the hydraulic shop.
Just because your part was expensive, doesn't mean it is good or well engineered. Chances are it is specialized, so it is something cheap marked up 900%.
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Smokey Eddy:
CF-centrifuge,yes 50 degrees Celcius-for my CF.
I use two SEPARATE sistem w SEPARATE filter also.I use my 70 lit standard diesel tank as oil tank,and 1.5 lit as disel tank but as I read you can get marine plastic tank of 5-30 lit cheap, even w heated line conection.
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The external fill was rather easy, but then again on a MK1 the spare tire well is pretty much right up against the back of the license plate.. I think most of the kits out there just vent though the filler cap.. But none of them are made to be filled from outside the car....
very few kit have a baffled tank, esp bad in Benzes.
Another VERY good point.. Too fast on a winding road with no baffle in the tank in a MK1 can put you in a field.. Ask me how I know this...
Plastic fittings (especially on the fuel side) are crap.. I did however use the PEX tubing wrapped in insulation to run coolant to the back of the car.. They make special brass compression fittings for the stuff, I used those and screwed hose nipples on the ends and connected to the engine and tank with rubber.. I bottomed out and drug that stuff many times with no failure other than the insulation getting torn off.. Another little addition I added was an electric coolant pump.. Helps with that low RPM coolant circulation.. These can be found on Mercedes, BMW's, and GM minivans...
I also want to add that if you want to run an electric lift pump you'll need to do your research.. I tried several different varieties found at most auto parts stores and they failed relatively soon, my guess is from the heat.. I'm sure there is something out there that will work if you feel the need to run on.. I just omitted it, and everything worked fine...
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I musta gotten lucky with my little Facet electric fuel pump. It was one that was on my race car-(removed because it once stopped and needed a hammer hit) initially used to diagnose a problem on the diesel side. (turned out to be a plugged water trap.) A problem I had was it blew the little return hoses off the injectors! I had some very small wire clamps off motorcycle vent hoses kicking around + put them on the hoses-I also threw on a regulator+ gauge+set the pressure to 1-2 lbs. In 80k miles, the pump has worked fine-but I did have to change the regulator once. I have both diesel +veggie flowing thru it.
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I agree with the baffled tank issues, had a neighbour with a merc 300D and one sure knew it had "junk in the trunk" after going through a round-about intersection ;D
I can't help but think Eddy that Princess auto has baffled reservoir tanks in their PAL hydraulics sections that seem awfully nifty.....
Andy
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That is the value of going with wmo instead; one tank. You heat the wvo to the thin it; with wmo you thin it with gasoline, so you can cold start on it.. Essentially you don't have to modify the car in any way. And everyone's got oil changes.. Not everyone runs a Chinese restaurant
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You heat the wvo to the thin it; with wmo you thin it with gasoline, so you can cold start on it.. Essentially you don't have to modify the car in any way.
If you heat WMO no need to thin it with gasoline run 100% ?????
My option is 2 tank is better then 1,even with 1.5 lit in my case.Problem is first start on COLD motor,cold injectors and cold fuel in injectors.WMO or WWO is not in shortcuts.
Only way I read is to heat motor by water Webasto and only then START motor,which I not test.
Did you drive on your way w which % and how long?
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I agree with you Mtrans.. WMO isn't necessarily a consistent fuel.. You never know what weight might be in there, or if the person runs their motor oil till it's the consistency of tar..
I like having the option to switch back to plain ole diesel in a pinch.... Temps can change rapidly in this part of the world.. Or if there is even slight antifreeze contamination of the oil that one may not catch it's hell to get out, and makes 'em run like poo after it's in the tank.. It is more hassle rigging everything up for 2 tanks, but so is walking in the cold cold rain...
But since we are on the subject of thinning.. I've read and talked with many (not necessarily reliable sources) that have used gasoline to thin their WVO or WMO.. The claims have always been "it works fine".. But never any details on what "fine" means, or how long they've done it.. I've always been under the impression that gasoline is counteractive in "fuel" for a diesel as it will reduce the cetane of the fuel.. Not to mention the lack of lubricity (which with WMO/WVO I guess doesn't matter so much) I would think kero or even diesel (since ULSD is kinda thin) would be better options.. Am I on the right track with this?
The other issue with thinning is that in time WVO/WMO (especially WVO) will separate like water out of oil.. Gas or diesel with WVO will separate in a matter of days without some slight agitation.. WMO takes a few weeks or more.. This isn't really a huge issue if you drive the car daily I guess..
I'm not speaking against blending your fuel, I did it myself a few months.. Just a throwing few thoughts here to keep in mind if one is considering the single tank thinning route...
A friend of mine has been blending WVO with diesel on his 7.3 IDI Ford rollback.. Mostly during the warmer months though.. He's had no issues as of yet, but I think he's only burning up to 25% wvo..
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I experimented with some clean wvo that was run through a centrifuge mixed with 20% gas last winter. Before I ran it I left out a jug on the porch and a glass jar with a mixture of it with temps into the teens. I didn't see seperation in either. Obviously the straight oil gets thicker.
But I made the mistake of trying this mixture which seemed to atleast burn, without a second tank system. Didn't take long before it started washing the tanks on 2 vehicles and leaving residue in the injection pump that almost stopped the cars from restarting again. Luckily I caught it early and put startron in all the tanks, changed filter and did a couple soaks with atf fluid.
That crap reacts terribly when left in the injection pump. That pump seemed to work ok after the incident but I broke it all down later when starting over with a fresher pump I resealed. Was surprised to see that layer of goo collected in the main pump body walls and especially between the part with the vanes (sorry i forget the name right now). Couldn't even barely move that piece when I got to it, the oil built up in that area for whatever reason.
I ditched the project because I only wanted to get good oil that was dewatered, etc. and a supplier ran out and I couldn't buy it at a cost that made the conversion worth while.
It seemed to run ok when the engines were up to temp, a little quiter and the exhaust stunk, but if I knew for sure the engine wasn't harmed as long as you washed it out with a diesel switchover before shutdown I wouldn't have had any issues with it.
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I agree with both of you.I am kind of blend (1.5L ULSD is not full 2 T).
For Viscosity testing:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=231&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=231&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9898 (http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9898)
I put gas up to 5% in winter only don`t want going hihger,is it so hard to use 50 cm Cu 1/2" and 70 cm 8 mm for fuel inside and make heatexcenge.Some boys said even on more than 10% gas don`t make problem for vepor in summer.
this one also
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=897&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= (http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=897&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)
or this http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9898&page=1#pid97816 (http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9898&page=1#pid97816)
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I experimented with some clean wvo that was run through a centrifuge mixed with 20% gas last winter. Before I ran it I left out a jug on the porch and a glass jar with a mixture of it with temps into the teens. I didn't see seperation in either. Obviously the straight oil gets thicker.
Wonder if temps may have slowed the separation? I mixed WVO with off road diesel in one container, and gas in another but it was mid summer with temps in the 90's.. The gas took a week+ to separate, the diesel about 4 days...
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Wonder if temps may have slowed the separation?
Mostly no,heat loose water oil bond then chill to eazy drain,better to filter cold w/o presure(which I don't do).
Once I have oil that (heat) didn't help,cold did.All is about what kind of oil you get and who know ELSE is in.
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Mostly no,heat loose water oil bond then chill to eazy drain,better to filter cold w/o presure(which I don't do).
Once I have oil that (heat) didn't help,cold did.All is about what kind of oil you get and who know ELSE is in.
I was referring to the mix of WVO and Diesel.. I mixed about 50/50 WVO and diesel many years ago.. Within a few days the two separated.. But it was during hot weather.... Dmac did about the same but left it sit in cold weather and didn't get a noticeable separation..
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I am teen on WWO exept I know DONOT mix WWO and WMO,only one up on time,it will gel.
WWO as I read is much worse on cold than WMO.
You need 1/2 of gas campare to ULSD,but you hit cetane ,so there is cetane boost in shops.Untill now I don't see reason to go more than 5% in my pleace of corse.Mix about 50/50 WVO/WMO and diesel work very good in IDI.
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WVO is indeed much worse when burned cold.. The glycerine found in it doesn't burn up and gums up rings and injector tips.. I believe it's also the glycerine that leave the nasty gunky deposits in the pump...
I've mixed WMO and WVO and burned it in a 2 tank system with no troubles.. I could see where mixing the two and thinning in one tank would lead to troubles...
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Good points on fill and venting...
If you have to do an extra 10 hours of work to get external fill, it is worth it.
If you pour veg oil over carpet, you are a sucker.
Never seen a kit with proper venting.
very few kit have a baffled tank, esp bad in Benzes.
If your kit comes with plastic coolant fittings, make a list, and throw them in the trash. Plastic has a 100% failure rate in coolant(yes OEMs do use it, often on $300 frequently failing parts).
Do not use copper with veg, green slime!
Every kit I've seen requires at least $100 in upgrade fittings at the hydraulic shop.
Just because your part was expensive, doesn't mean it is good or well engineered. Chances are it is specialized, so it is something cheap marked up 900%.
I think 10 hours worth of work to be able to use years worth of free fuel is a good tradeoff.
I don't agree much with the points made in this post.
I haven't seen any plastic fittings but the PEX I use has worked great for years.
Didn't have problems with my first system that used a copper heat exchanger in the tank, people said I would but never saw a problem with it.
I've never used or recently shopped for a kit but the copper and compression fittings I use cost much less.
The main trick with a 2-tank setup is what do you do with the return line.
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The pex I used for coolant has taken some amazing abuse, but I did encounter some issue with some other fittings.. I had gotten a very course filter to install back at the tank to make up for the lack of a strainer in the tank.. It was one of those "racing" fuel filter that you could take apart and clean or replace the screen.. Wasn't able to find any at the time that were all metal so I settled for one with plastic hose nipples.. Absolute crap! Those plastic fittings would heat and cool, then leak air like a mofo.. Eventually I found brass fittings that would work in the thing...
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The main trick with a 2-tank setup is what do you do with the return line.
Very,very true.
After 4 years I think my el.valve and fuel lines are little tired,so I plan to go on pneumatic (lines 10/8mm,-80 ... +150°C and fittings,manuel switch).
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I have to put in my 2 cents here as I used to do conversions; have about 40 under my belt, everything from every diesel VW except the latest CR TDI, early and late Merc's, Ford trucks, 7.3, 6.9 etc, Perkins , and Cats.
Never had any comebacks from customers except when they had poor WVO. I used to give a 40,000kms/.one year warranty and i guess it shows the quality of my installations.
I'm will not address any WMO as I've never done any, although would think about doing it.
All the conversions I did were 2 tank, parallel, setups. Heated tank, heated filter, heated fuel lines[ NO hose in hose like Frybrid, had one customer who tried doing his own and kinked the fuel line so bad it leaked into the coolant], one 6 way or 2 or 3 valves [ purging times only have some effect, there will always be some blending of VO and diesel ] and highly recommend a Plantdrive Vegetherm inline heater placed just before the injection system.
I used the best quality products [ the Arcticfox tank heat exchanger is garrantied for 1,000,000 kms !] but a system can be done for cheap-homemade tank and filter heater, manual valves etc, but i wouldn't cheap out on the Vegetherm. It plus it's temp sensor is less than $150 and is the best, most reliable way to get consistent VO fuel temps at the injection system.
Of course the quality of the WVO is the most important part of the equation. make sure you are filtering down to 2 microns and don't use ANY WVO that you suspect has water in it, unless you are using a good centrifuge.
My last 3 personal vehicles have now gone more than 300,000kms without any issues other than filter changes . As a matter of fact , the TDI I'm now driving was from a conversion I had done about 5 years ago. Before swapping the engine into a better body I decided to open the pump to see how much wear the was after 100,000 kms that my customer had done in that time. Well I was stunned that there was zero wear, only a slight tan film on the components which wiped off. Installed new seals and still running perfectly [ it actually has 440,000 kms].
hope this helps