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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: madmedix on January 06, 2009, 08:09:53 pm
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Hi Folks:
Driving with the kids a couple of days ago, toodling down the street when suddenly something went "WHAP" on the floorpan right under my daughter's feet on the passenger rear area. Hmmm. Maybe a chunk of debris or something. No problem, onward we go.
The next morning...she will not start. Wants to, but won't. It has never behaved like this in its life. So I went through the usual suspects:
- Glow bus is getting good power (plugs pimped with the Ford relay and indicator light etc.)
- Fuel cutoff solenoid ok
- Fuel is getting into the IP.
- Battery is very strong and cranking well
- I can smell the diesel-that-is-trying-really-hard-to-be-exhaust-gases after about 5 seconds of cranking.
I'm thinking: Crap. Something fell off the car! That's what hit the floorpan. But what? It's not possible to go back and see (freeway) and I can't see anything obviously missing. No leaks. Weird stuff. All the IP bolts are there (cuz I'm thinking the wants-to-start behaviour means she's out of time...jumped a tooth and the object hitting the floorpan was coincidence? But the engine never missed a beat. Nothing.) and while looking her over...
Can anyone save me some time and suggest the best way to get that lower housing off while it's -16c outside...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/madmedix/th_IMG_4600.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/madmedix/?action=view¤t=IMG_4600.jpg)
I've never noticed this connector before, going to the turbo...(at least, I don't think so...) It's right underneath the hose to the valve cover running off the air intake. What the heck is it? Nothing in the Bentley...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/madmedix/th_IMG_4596.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/madmedix/?action=view¤t=IMG_4596.jpg)
And, on the face of the IP...looks like a voltage regulator...can't find it's wiring/description/anything in the Bentley either. Could this be the/part of the problem:
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/madmedix/th_IMG_4592.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/madmedix/?action=view¤t=IMG_4592.jpg)
Thanks,
Andy
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That lower plastic housing comes off easy. You loosen the water pump and crank pulley bolts (they are allen head). Then you loosen the alternator mount so you can take off the v-belt. With the pulleys out of the way, you can access the bolts that hold the plastic on to the block. Unscrew those and it can come off.
The thing on the face of the IP that looks like a voltage regulator just houses the timing advance mechanism. It is all mechanical. On my car (1.6 NA), there is no electrical connection to the IP except for the fuel solenoid.
Hopefully someone else can chime in here that is more knowledgeable and help you out some more.
Maybe you can check the cold start functions correctly and the timing is still correct. Maybe the belt jumped a tooth?
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Under the passenger floor on an A2,..
is the fuel lines.
They are plastic and could probably be smashed pretty easily.
sooo, I'm wondering how you know:
- Fuel is getting into the IP.
??
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My first thought was that she lost prime for some reason overnight (she's had her seperator deleted) and I sucked up fuel from before and after the filter just to make sure. It didn't require much suction (used a small suction bulb that used to be used for clearing neo-natal/infant nasopharynx passages so it doesn't produce much vacuum) Also, the line from the filter to the pump is clear and I can see the movement. Not much considering it's only cranking but it's moving...
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The bizzare part is that you smell diesel out the exhaust... I was going to say maybe you hit a bump (or something?) and that knocked the fuel shut off solenoid free of it's dinky 12V source (that tiny wire going to the IP)
but then maybe your water seperator is cracked/smashed? but you sucked diesel up with no problem... most baffling
Edit: that thing in your second picture is a connector for the blow off valve. that was never connected to anything on mine....
I don't know what it's intended use was/is?
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Well, stranger things have happened...like a tax refund :D I'm going to wait for better weather and line her up for a timing.
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If your timing belt is intact I REALLY doubt it jumped a tooth.
They just don't jump.
I've left the tensioner completely loose (accident) and it ran just fine, the belt slapped around allot but no skipping.
Try cracking a couple injector lines and crank it over to make sure there is fuel going through the lines.
It's likely what you heard/ felt was the exhaust hitting the undercarriage. this happens on my car once in a while if I release the clutch to fast while in reverse or if I down shift to soon and the engine rocks in its mounts enough to allow the piping to smack the undercarriage.
I'm curious that's for sure.
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I can't think of anything that could fall out of the engine bay, that is big enought to go "WHAP"
and not stop the car immediately
but cause a problem,... later.
Do you have a block heater?
It's good to hear you have power to the glow plugs but that won't tell you if one is bad.
If you can get a cheap dash-mount ammeter (I've bought them new for $2.50), a battery clip and an alligator clip>
Clip one end to the pos post on battery, position ammeter so you can read it, then clip the alligator clip to the glow plugs.
Actually I clip the glowplugs first so I don't zap anything with the live clip,..
I know; the battery could explode from the spark if I hook the battery up last.
So don't try that at home kids.
Maybe I'll build a switch into it.
Also be aware that the alligator clip can get HOT.
This tool will make it so whenever you suspect your glowplugs are bad you can easily hook it up without disconnecting anything and check them.
One of Hagar's inventions.
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I think you hit something and damaged a fuel line. It's probably a tiny crack that you can't see but allows some air into the fuel line and causing hard starts. All your pics are normal and not missing anything.
Can you see any bubbles in the fuel line when you suction?
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try running it from a can of diesel (through the filter)
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I do have a block heater (it's okay and warms up quite nicely); I will attempt the "local" fuel supply trick via the filter and a container. I was at constant speed when that noise happened and the road was smooth so I can rule out the exhaust whacking the car.
It's way too cold and windy to try this for awhile. I'll post what happens when I can get to it.
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If your timing belt is intact I REALLY doubt it jumped a tooth.
They just don't jump.
I'm curious that's for sure.
Timing belts can jump if the right conditions exist. In the OP's case, there was an auduble thump befor the symptoms existed. I had my IP jump at least one tooth when I had a bird strike at a speed slightly above the posted speed limit. :wink:
The bird hit just right to break the grill, right in line with the timing belt cover. Bird/grill parts entered in the tiny gap between the steel timing belt cover and the IP bracket. Some of that crap must have gone between the belt and IP sprocket, allowing the belt to disengage the sprocket for a moment. The full throttle results were Holy High EGT & Boost Batman! It skipped at least on full tooth.
Other symptoms were:
Ran OK at Partial throttle
Low RPM and Idle were horse 5hit. Rough, white smoke, stinky, and wanted to quit.
It appears that the OP is still getting fuel, as there is a diesel smell out the tail pipe, and the clear line going to the IP is full.
Put the engine at TDC on No.1 cylinder, get the flywheel mark bug nutz on and look to see if the notch on the back side of IP sprocket is at least close to the notch on the pump.
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I had a timing belt jump.... Injector pump had a broken bolt which was causing excusive vibration
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IT'S ALIVE !!
Cut-off solenoid was funky. Yes, it *clicked* with 12v applied to her, but I changed it out with the one from my Golf. Started up. :P
So I put that solenoid into my Golf.....and it would not start. I thought these were all-or-nothing deals? Anyway, it gave me the impetus to change the timing belt & tensioner, filters, fluids and some more electrical work. Thanks for the help.
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Great to hear she's alive Andy.
I'm having a very similar problem to the one you describe (minus the noise of something falling off) and i'm trying to troubleshoot.
Could you please tell me if you confirmed that you were getting fuel to the injectors, before replacing the stop solenoid?
ie, was the solenoid still allowing fuel from the IP to the injectors, even though it was malfunctioning? I am getting a "click", and fuel is moving through the pump to the injectors, but it won't catch and start.
My story is here:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=20041.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=20041.0)
Your input would be great in helping me diagnose.
Thanks,
Jason
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Ive had a stupid problem similar like this
Came out to be a grounding problem, maybe its just VW engineering nonsense or something but that little switch on the IP may stick and still click - or have crud in it, also a poor ground connection makes the glow plugs not operate properly or at all - they do suck about 48 amps combined.. cleaned up the ground cable and good as new - while at it remove the original ground and give it a good dip in solvent or use some electroplating silly thing to clean it - when its nice and coppery you will be golden.