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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: iamdieselnutmechanic on March 06, 2014, 12:12:49 pm
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i have a landrover 300 pump. i am running 216 injectors nozzles and i have this one an ahu with stock turbo.
the ptoblem i have is you see the idle is inconsistent. no matter what i do, if you bring the idle down at all from its idle rpm via load on the alt or by engaging 1st gear.. the motor drops down to a lugging like 400rpm.
no matter where the pump settings are.. i tried it with a 1.6td idle spring on the governor assembly for a while and it had a much better idle than this.. it was choppy but atleast itidled when the head lights were turned on.
what is going on here?
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Do you have the max fuel screw turned up?
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Is this was happens when you have the position of the throttle linkage (the pump shaft linked to the governor springs inside the pump) is backed off to far and the governor spring for the idle is not able to perform it's job?
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no matter where the pump settings are..
Legit. Screw in idle down, vice-versa.. Change the throttle arm position, and make the idle and fuel screw match, same thing.
Cold, or ANY load on the engine it bogs right down to the same choppy idle (which is weird).. Ill actually go out right now and get the laser tach on it to see WHAT the low idle is idling at.
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Ok so I went outside and fired it up, which was perfect at 0F btw, and it chugged away at an idle of about 700-725 which is weird.. because that is not as low as it seemed to be. The car was just a shaking, and the motor a rockin. So Ok, why is the 700 SO ROUGH and why does it drop and chug like that?
I turned the idle screw up so it was idling at 1000 on the nose.. I then proceeded to turn on every single electrical thing in the car.. Even the rad fan and glow-plugs (both manual relay and switches) and the idle didn't falter one bit.
1000 is too fast for my likings.. but any lower doesnt work at all. help
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Change governor springs maybe?
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Change governor springs maybe?
Are they not matched to the governor flyweights though?
Like I said in my first post, I had a 1.6TD idle spring on there for the longest time.. Here is a few pictures from somebody elses album i found through google (not my pics).. this is what he says is a bone stock rover cage and springs. Notice the dual idle spring.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/84%20Jetta/imagejpeg_2-1.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/J_holubek/media/84%20Jetta/imagejpeg_2-1.jpg.html)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/84%20Jetta/20120730_134637.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/J_holubek/media/84%20Jetta/20120730_134637.jpg.html)
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Anybody got any ideas?
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I put the 1.6 spring back in the pump, and reset all the adjustments. Problem solved.. weird.
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my 300 pump had 3 springs... when cold.. mine sounds like it has a cam in it... but i cannot say ive ever started it below 30f... even on warn summer day sounds like cam till 3 or so min no smoke though... mine is at 118.. never touched my fuel screw lock color.. i did add 3 washers like gov mod suggested...
does your pump have the weird lever with springs on it?? goes in the front of the pump... mine does.. and libbys theory is its for start up reduction of soot.. but no one is 100% what it does..
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ty.
no it doesnt have the odd rover setup on the front. maybe i have a 200tdi pump? i dunno. yes it does sound like a "cam" in an mk1 that low of an idle is wrenching EVERYTHING around like crazy.
it is not setup right, the car won't even start on its own unless i am inside and physically giving it the tinyiest amount of pedal. fine you say? just up the idle screw that much? well then my hot idle is screaming above 1000rpm.
basically if i want it to start and idle cold properly, i need to live with an 1100 rpm hot idle. not happening. I want an 875-900 hot idle. it is where it sounds best. Even then when it is running hot, say I pull a big load from the alt.. jump starting another car.. idle drops down to a bucking ~600 and does not recover until you blip throttle, only after the load is gone.
I am unsure of where to set it up.. i dont suppose you have pics of the throttle shaft orientation and a good shot of the fuel screw crsmp5?
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Well, i can do things 3 ways...
Mine needs pump head seal, ulsf made it leak after 3 summers, so i gotta pull it to fix when i get home
2, ask new, or comming up new boss to crack his open, has one of uk guys last shipment...
At home is yet another uk guy one mr no hair got for upcomming caddy swap... Well bosses caddy swap goal is running by fri too...
But my camera, internet access is via phone... So i cannot post pics till after 30th...
I really do not wanna crack open new bosses though as i want to see if libby correct in it not needing a gov mod...
Lucas also has one, pre uk guys last trip, all these are 300 with goofy throttle linkage and pots on top...
Only know of 1 in use like yours, but id trust 0 info that comes from its fingers, mouth. Such a wizbang im positive he screwed with it, the ones i have, only gov mod on mine, which ive been told not needed, got oppertunity to find out now
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I would agree that the gov mod is not needed. This thing rolls coal even with 20psi, no matter where the pump is set.
I have seen one like mine too, it was 8v-of-fury's pictures I posted before in this thread. Do you know of another person I could contact? He says it is running this setup;
-stock LR governor cage, with 1.6 idle spring.
-stock LR governor flyweight assembly.
-custom ground boost pin.
-stock LR internal throttle arm.
-1.9 VW 1Z DE110 cam plate and matching plunger shim.
-1.9 VW 1Z pump case pressure regulator
-1.9 VW 1Z advance piston, spring, shims, and front cap
-stock LR 11mm rotor and and head.
-1.6TD delivery valves.
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That is not a rover pump any more, that is a hybrid and probably why you have issues. If I were to guess it would be the advance section fighting you. Ask libby about it, he will know.
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To call it a Rover Pump only means it came from a Land Rover. It is a mechanical direct injected 11mm pump for the 2.5 4 cyl DI engines in the Land Rover Discoveries.
The pieces internally that make it what it are, are;
-Throttle arm
-Governor cage
-Internal throttle assembly
-Cam plate and
-Advance piston/spring
What I have changed, hasn't effected its DI capabilities. I have only changed pieces that make it indefinitely better for the engine that it is fueling. Changing the cam plate and advance piston assembly has made this pump essentially identical to a stock ALH 11mm automatic pump.
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You idle spring is too strong, below a certain RPM it cannot govern anymore, that's your problem.
There's no spring rate I can recommend you as it's dependent of the lever ratio, but definitely you need a softer one than what you have.
Best is to go to a hardware store that have a rack with a lot of different spring for sale, and pick up a few one, there'r not the best but will do the trick for you.
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I had the same issues with the very weak 2 piece Land Rover idle spring setup, a stock 1.6 idle spring and as well as a stretched 1.6 idle spring as that was someones test idea that the stock LR spring was TOO weak.
I don't know, all in all.. this Land Rover pump has never idled properly. Any alternator load ALWAYS brings the idle down, and if it is big enough causes it to start to buck and snort at a struggling idle.
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Another thing,
yesterday I played with the injection timing. Everywhere from 0.75mm to 1.65mm of injection timing.. The idle tone or blusih smoke (associated with retarded timing) never changed or went away. The difference was felt in the test drives with where the power was and the exhaust note under fueling.. Why does the idle not change at all?
Further more, the exhaust STINKS it is a very very wretched smell. I am not burning any coolant or oil, and timing doesn't clear it up.. So I don't see what is going on here.
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Is it driveable currently? It sounds suspiciously like a pump that is timed 180 degrees out...
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Is it driveable currently? It sounds suspiciously like a pump that is timed 180 degrees out...
It does sound that way.. but it definitely isn't. I have had it apart probably 3-5 times since installation for various reasons. The car is drive-able.. and very well, other than idling or when you clutch and let off the pedal. Sometimes it doesn't catch idle on the way down and stalls out. Cold operation, even on a warm day needs throttle applied to keep the idle up where it is not shaking things to pieces.
On the left, the 1.6 idle spring. I swapped it out today for the stock land rover idle spring(s) on the right. Way less tension to them. Holley bowl gasket makes a perfect little display area loll.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/84%20Jetta/2014-03-31150343_zpsd50d85a9.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/J_holubek/media/84%20Jetta/2014-03-31150343_zpsd50d85a9.jpg.html)
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First thing to remember, is with a correct idle spring you should be able to drop the clutch at idle in first gear and you car should start moving strong without stalling the motor.
A too strong idle spring will be fully extended below certain RPM, lets say 1000rpm, so below 1000rpm there's no more governing from the spring and any load applied on the motor will make it die (the spring does not add anymore throttle to compensate) It's also true for a too soft spring that anything higher than a certain RPM, lets say 1000rpm again, the soft spring is fully compressed, so the RPM will start to raise and hang there, or until the middle spring start to govern at its rpm range.
You need to find the right ''strongness'' of your idle spring, you can also extend your spring to give it more headroom to govern.
As of your rough idle and bad smelling, it's due too a not enough aggressive cam plate (too soft injection) for what a VW TDI engine need.
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Thank-you for your replies! :)
I am using the stock 1.9 AHU pumps cam-plate and advance piston/spring/shims/cap. I feel that those are actually the best possible match to the AHU's injectors, don't you? lol
That is a real pain in the behind, however here is another symptom maybe helping lend eyes to another issue with my setup??
Upon starting the engine cold, it doesn't catch and run unless your foot is on the pedal. EVER. There is a good shot of black out the tailpipe and the engine actually "fires" but then it dies immediately because the pump doesn't continue to fuel. I have a fair knowledge for the inner workings of these pumps.. but this is eluding me. I have never seen another pump/engine combo SO HARD to get to run properly.
As for the dropping the clutch and the engine taking off, yeah right.. If you bring the idle down at all engaging the clutch the engine starts to drop to its stumble idle.
Just for reference.. this thing did this when it was a FULL ON STOCK Land Rover setup.. What else could it be causing this if not for the governor springs and their setup??