VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: Ziptar on January 20, 2007, 06:31:09 pm

Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Ziptar on January 20, 2007, 06:31:09 pm
mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ:

Purpose:

   This objective of this FAQ is to compile a a list of commonly asked questions and answers to what is needed to convert the electronically controlled injection of the Volkswagen 1.9L TDI engine over to mechanically controlled injection in an easy to read mostly complete format. the FAQ is perhaps not going to answer all of your questions but, is more intended to get someone new to mechanical TDIs up to speed and assist in one better understanding the posts  they see here and elsewhere. In otherwords to answer the "How do I make a mTDI or TDI-M pump????" It's a jumping off point more or less.

Sources and Credit where Credit is due:

   Most of the information here is a collection of information found in postings on the GTD Forums, TDI Club, and elsewhere on the Internet. Most has been gleaned from posts by RabbitGTDguy, hillfolk'r, Named Tintin, and others. If I used something here of yours and didn't specifically mention you, my apologies, let me know and I'll add you to the list. It has been written by me (Ziptar) as part my educating myself and  getting a better understanding of how to build a TDI-M myself. I haven't actually done it, yet, so if I have missed something or completely gotten it wrong let me know. I have reworded and/or changed some stuff around a bit to help organize things and to better flow together info, quotes, etc from different sources.

What Injection Pump can I use to build a TDI-M?
The non Pump Dusse TDI uses an electronic version of the Bosch VE "Verteiler" Rotary style Injection pump. The Bosch VE Injection Pumps is available in a mechanical version as well. Mechanical pumps were used by many vehicle manufacturers, to name a few Volkswagen, Fiat, Cummins, Peugeot, and Ford (Europe).

Okay, so I can just get any Bosch VE mechanical Pump and strap it on a TDI then?
Well no, not exactly.  Bosch produced VE pump in two shaft sizes...17mm and larger 20mm mainshaft pumps. The shaft sizes differ mainly in relation to the size of the pump head, 17mm shaft for up to 9mm head and 20mm shaft for 10mm head and over. The theory is that the larger the mainshaft of the pump, the more pressure the pumps can handle (i.e. All DI engines require higher injection pressures) Usually 20mm shaft drive pumps also have a certain amount of reinforcment improvements to the pump housing as well to support the extra pressures they require. The VW TDI came with a 20MM shaft VE pump in two basic versions a 10MM head for standard transmission cars and a 11MM head for automatic transmission cars. What that means then is any mechanically injected VE pump you use should at the very least approach the head size of a stock TDI pump, too small a head will not deliver enough fuel to the TDI injectors. The reverse of this then is that just about any Bosch VE pump can be made to work on a TDI, it depends on what you plan to do woth the engine overall.

How do I know what Bosch VE Pump I have or am looking at buying?
The Bosch part number on the Bosch VEs pumps are fairly standard i.e. 0-460-4XX-XXX VE , what are important to note are the 6th and 7th digits of the Bosch Number. The 6th digit indicates the plunger size, 9 for 9mm, 0-10mm, 1-11mm, 2 for12mm. The 7th digit the is the application, 4 for 4cyl., 6 for 6cyl., etc. The specific manufacturers part number may also be on the pump and completly different, for example, the Cummins 4BT injection pump numbers do not indicate plunger size, everyone I have seen to date has been 12mm. Since the 4BT is a 4 Cylinder engine we can assume that part.
3917530  1986-90 VE Series Rotary, CPL 858, 105 HP
3908191   1986-90 VE Series Rotary, CPL 767, 105 HP
3917535  1986-90 VE Series Rotary, CPL 857, 120 HP
3906631  1986-90  VE Series Rotary, CPL 593, 105 HP
3919716  1991-93  VE Series Rotary, CPL 1260, 105 HP
3926831   1991-93 VE Series Rotary, CPL 986 & 1848, 120 HP
The only way to know for sure is with the Bosch part Number.

So which pump should I use then??
There is not a single best answer to this question, it is a combination of what you have available, what kind of horsepower and boost you are shooting for, etc.
The options are basically:
[list=1][list=a]
I was unable to find much info, if you have some I will add it here.[/list:o]

Figured I might as well add the "Factory VW 12mm mechanical pump" (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9598) info here as well.

Info courtesy Tintin:
Quote
2.8TDI=158HP for the common-rail version, year 2003, code engine AUH, BCQ, but the older version 1996.... have 125HP code engine AGK.
Call a bosch shop and ask for the 0 460 424 138
Part number is: VE4/12F1900R693 (0 460 424 138) for a 2.8TDI VW pump.

What are these sprocket, spring, LDA, governor, thingies you are yammering on about?
Parts of the Bosch VE Pump obviously :D
The Diagram Below is for a non turbo VE pump so there is no LDA on top but, it's enough to give you an Idea.
               (http://www.ziptar.com/TDI-M/Bosch_VE_Diagram.gif)
And the LDA Itself
              (http://www.ziptar.com/TDI-M/Bosch_VE_LDA_Diagram.jpg)
Also see the  Robert Bosch type VE Diesel injection pump by  Martin Jägersand (http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/jag/vw/engine/fi/injpump.html) (source of the first diagram) for a really good overview of the pump.

Great! but, I want to know more detailed meat and potatoes information about the Bosch VE Pumps?
Then you should read the Bosch VE Injection Pump Manual (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/20/669698/BoschFuelInjectionPumpTypeVE2.pdf)
and The Complete Pump Assembly Tutorial with Pictures (Now English) Thread on the vwdieselparts.com forum (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5392). Kind of funny that it's a translation of a tutorial posted here on the GTD forum  :P

Thanks for all info but, this seems kinda complicated. Can't I just buy a pump prebuilt and setup for a TDI-M?
Yes, You can I hear. Don't ask me where, I have no idea. The point of this FAQ and the forums is for the DIY'er to turn their own wrenches and put something together. Another answer to this is since the setup and timing of TDI-M pump is kinda of an art and science unto itself,  many wind up tuning by ear ultimatley. The service guys will more than likely look at you crossways if you brought a mTDI into service at a VW dealer. You will be the mechanic ultimatley so best you understand whats going on. If you really don't think you can tear into and modify a pump, gather your parts, take them down to your local pump shop and tell them what you want done, at least then you'll have a hand in it.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on January 20, 2007, 07:45:25 pm
For those which have the possibility of it, there exists in Europe several pump ' ' specific DI' ' which is a direct swap, some witch the good alignment of pulley and rev over 4200rpm and this, in 10,11 and 12mm head plunger, ex: peugeot boxer 2.5TDI, fiat ducato 2.5 (some fiat use a TDI 1Z came plate with a 11mm head), Kia 2.9L DOHC, VW transporter 2.8 TDI, etc...... some of this pumps are not proper aligment pulley, there exist a different hub pulley for proper aligment,  that can avoid machinage.

There are also pumps with a head plunger 8 or 9 mm with a 20mm main shaft, as there exists also pumps in 12mm with a 17mm main shaft, I bought some, and i have a bosch program and it's what  can i see in the thousand of pump available.

Look on ebay.de or on ebay.fr, it have very interesting pumps there.

If not,  to mount a pump which works well, one will try to join together the most possible information in this post, but, i do not intend to give any ''rising in the nozzle  :lol: '', is necessary has each one to make his experiment, and to avoid the other which will be useful of this information to s........or ''has of another end''

I am ready to put basic information and of documentation.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on December 20, 2007, 12:13:11 pm
It's not as simple as you claim it to make work a TDI with an AAZ pump and simply add the head/rotor and tdi came, that need specific DI control lever and much adjustment.

The newer MK3 since 1998 and MK4 TDI do not use the same head spring than the AAZ one, only the old style TDI pump 1997 and later use the same, also 11mm pump on automatic TDI use the AAZ spring too.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Ziptar on December 22, 2007, 09:18:02 am
Figured I might as well add the "Factory VW 12mm mechanical pump" (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9598) info here as well.

Info courtesy Tintin:
Quote
2.8TDI=158HP for the common-rail version, year 2003, code engine AUH, BCQ, but the older version 1996.... have 125HP code engine AGK.
Call a bosch shop and ask for the 0 460 424 138
Part number is: VE4/12F1900R693 (0 460 424 138) for a 2.8TDI VW pump.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on January 03, 2008, 12:40:17 am
No problem with 17mm main shaft, the fragile part of an axis is the place where the came plate is drived, 17 or 20mm are identical at this point.

I built several 17mm M-TDI pump without problem, one of them have over 100000KM on it, with 17mm I guess that the bushing will use more quickly.

Not to take only the head in consideration, a 14mm head with IDI came plate or 10mm with TDI came plate have exactly the same potential, thus one or other cause the same stress on the shaft.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: superspringer on January 09, 2008, 09:05:02 am
Sorry to ask what is probably a really REALLY obvious question - but what are the actual advantages in converting from electronic control to mechanical? Is it purely for ease of adjustment or is there some other reason?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jtanguay on January 09, 2008, 01:30:59 pm
Quote from: "Tintin"
No problem with 17mm main shaft, the fragile part of an axis is the place where the came plate is drived, 17 or 20mm are identical at this point.

I built several 17mm M-TDI pump without problem, one of them have over 100000KM on it, with 17mm I guess that the bushing will use more quickly.

Not to take only the head in consideration, a 14mm head with IDI came plate or 10mm with TDI came plate have exactly the same potential, thus one or other cause the same stress on the shaft.


thats good news because for my mTDI pump i want a 11mm head  :wink:  and i'm 99% sure its 17mm.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on January 09, 2008, 05:28:41 pm
I forgot to specify, I only built 10mm head + TDI cam-plate with 17mm main shaft.

I already installed a 11mm head + TDI cam-plate on a 17mm shaft, but for only 1500-2000KM.


Quote from: "jtanguay"
Quote from: "Tintin"
No problem with 17mm main shaft, the fragile part of an axis is the place where the came plate is drived, 17 or 20mm are identical at this point.

I built several 17mm M-TDI pump without problem, one of them have over 100000KM on it, with 17mm I guess that the bushing will use more quickly.

Not to take only the head in consideration, a 14mm head with IDI came plate or 10mm with TDI came plate have exactly the same potential, thus one or other cause the same stress on the shaft.


thats good news because for my mTDI pump i want a 11mm head  :wink:  and i'm 99% sure its 17mm.
Title: M-PUMP
Post by: 32 VALVES on January 13, 2008, 05:39:33 pm
I just got done doing my swap on my caddy 1z motor with a mechanical pump.  I dont know what its off, but it bolted right up to the pump bracket that had the tdi pump.  If I get some part #'s someone can tell me what I got right.  the power is not impressing but it was faster than the 1.6idi.  its running off wastegate spring pressure 10psi. Im new to this stuff so I need some to hold my hand in fattening up the fuel on this thing...

(http://[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/32VAVLES/IMG_0370.jpg)[/img]
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vwsnaps on May 04, 2008, 11:00:05 am
Quote from: "superspringer"
Sorry to ask what is probably a really REALLY obvious question - but what are the actual advantages in converting from electronic control to mechanical? Is it purely for ease of adjustment or is there some other reason?



I had the same question.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on May 04, 2008, 11:37:30 am
Ease of adjustment, lack of electronics, no limp home mode when some sensor goes bad. Especially good for swaps into much older or non VW vehicles as you don't have to worry about swapping any harnesses. Just one wire for the pump, one for the glowplugs and you are good to go.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vwsnaps on May 04, 2008, 11:46:52 am
Hmm.

So instead of buying a complete 1998 Tdi for $4000..  I could just buy a motor and this m-pump?

How much are the pumps?  And where would i find them?


I have a 1988 Vw GLi jetta 16v that is getting the TDI implant.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on May 04, 2008, 11:50:14 am
Giles, in the vendor section, and Tintin, if he has the time can both make them. So yes, you just need the motor and a pump. Sometimes they are for sale other places as well, although I wouldn't trust them from anywhere else unless someone you trust can vouch for them.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vwsnaps on May 04, 2008, 11:58:32 am
hmm now i just need to find a motor..  :)


From a performance stand point, swapping the complete car / harness into my mk2 would it be more reliable??
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vwsnaps on May 04, 2008, 12:26:07 pm
i sent Giles an email.

I searched ebay and google and didnt find any.


Im going to talk to my friend who is doin the swap for me..
Title: More good news...
Post by: westyman on June 19, 2008, 03:04:49 pm
deleted  :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on June 19, 2008, 05:24:48 pm
Guess you should contact someone about becoming a vendor, then post in the vendor section, not this one.
Title: Re: More good news...
Post by: rallydiesel on June 19, 2008, 06:22:10 pm
Quote from: "westyman"


Soon, I will be offering brand-new pumps of this type. I have established a connection and source for these. I am quite sure from my testing so far that these will provide the power level anyone could ever desire. Pricing is not set yet, but with current exchange rates we will probably be in the $1800~2000 range for these.



Sounds exciting. Price is a teeny bit out of my range.  :shock:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on June 19, 2008, 10:48:32 pm
deleted  :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on June 19, 2008, 10:52:30 pm
Because you are selling them. Now if you want to tell exactly how to build them, then that would be something entirely different. :D
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on June 20, 2008, 01:25:31 am
deleted  :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on June 20, 2008, 11:16:35 am
So I could see where too thick of a shim will cause plunger problems, but what does too thin do?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on June 20, 2008, 11:29:23 am
deleted  :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on June 20, 2008, 12:02:12 pm
BTW, I didn't mean to sound like a knob in my first post, I was just letting you know as one of the mods probably would have anyway. I sure don't mind good vendors or knowledgeable people.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but how does a thinner shim reduce pressure when the stroke is the same and diesel doesn't compress, because of ports in the plunger opening/closing at a different time?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on June 20, 2008, 12:09:27 pm
deleted :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: zukgod1 on June 20, 2008, 12:40:59 pm
Are you refering to the shim between the plunger and cam plate?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on June 20, 2008, 01:05:49 pm
deleted :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: rallydiesel on July 19, 2008, 06:21:46 pm
Could you use say a 1Z pump and put the top off a 1.6 or 1.9 IDI pump?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on July 19, 2008, 06:31:57 pm
Deleted  :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: westyman on August 01, 2008, 05:12:41 pm
deleted  :!:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Vincent Waldon on August 01, 2008, 06:08:31 pm
I think I get it... the shim moves the "piston" closer or further away from the "combustion chamber" (bad metaphors but it'll do).

So the same amount of fuel (determined by plunger stroke) is being pushed into a deeper or shallower hole... the "depth" of the hole actually being set by  how far the piston pushes down... as determined by the thickness of the shim.

Because we're dealing with small sizes here a little change in thickness means alot... same actually with the thickness of the headgasket when you think of it.  To change the compression ratio we could actually shim the top of the piston and get the same effect... just not practical !

Haven't done the math so the above may be crap... but I'm wondering if this is the gist.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimfoo on August 01, 2008, 06:18:35 pm
Quote from: "libbybapa"
But, in the compression ratio example, the "combustion chamber" would be the entire volume of fuel being compressed, including the space in the distribution head, the entire injection line and the fuel space in the injector.  I imagine the difference in shim thickness from thinnest to thickest would be 1/10,000th of that space.  Also, in that example, changing the shim thickness in the injectors would have the same effect.  

I don't dispute your experience, I'm just trying to understand why.

Andrew

Don't worry, I don't understand it either as fuel doesn't compress, so I don't see how "deep" the hole is matters. What I did see is that with a thinner shim for the same fuel setting, it makes the bleed hole open up later.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Vincent Waldon on August 01, 2008, 06:32:36 pm
Everything compresses... solids, liquids, gases... just not so much for solids and liquids. ;-)

Bear in mind I'm just thinking out loud here... trying to learn from you smart people.

I suppose this is really about developing pressure.  The plunger pushes against the slug of fuel (size of which is determined by the control collar position) and develops pressure.  The smaller the passage it is being forced into the larger the pressure... enough to open the check valve and eventually the injector.  Push down more (different shim)... more pressure.

But yeah, the math doesn't make sense just yet... perhaps I need to dig out my fluid mechanics texts from engineering...  where did I put those again ?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on August 02, 2008, 01:27:33 pm
I already whrite it in some post, the correct shim thickness is equal to + or - 3.7mm (face end of the plunger to sealing face of the cap) for the most of the pump, 3mm or 4mm have relatively no effect in pressure or performance till the plunger do not hit the plug, (to be safe measure must be higher than the lift of the cam plate).

With the old grooved plunger (like old cummins pump) the shim must be adjusted in the spec with a special tool to calculate the ''pre-stroke'' of the plunger, Improper shim with this type of plunger can change the area in the plunger stroke when the plunger start to built pressure, It's why the pressure can be affected, Also its a silencer parameter.

Also combined, if the start of the pressure built area is changed, the start point on the came plate lift is also different, the º of the curve is different, means more or less pressure.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on August 20, 2008, 09:03:39 am
What appens with you Westyman, you are opposed?

Andrew, yes it is the fill hole affected by the groove area, the correct shim tickness can be found with the pump test sheet, but no idea if maxed with another came plate.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimbote on December 04, 2008, 03:06:24 pm
Quote from: "libbybapa"
I wanted to add a couple more bits of useful information for mTDI pump building.  One is that the un-caged governor spring for pump #0460424138 can be used with a lengthened accelerator lever to give 4,500 rpms.

The other is that the pump mainshaft from an eTDI can have the two cutouts machined for the rubber cushions and can be used to achieve the proper pulley offset if one is using a "short snout" pump.  This is especially convenient if one is already gutting an eTDI pump for the dynamic timing bits.

Andrew


Awesome info....I'll be ordering my springs shortly!!
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on January 17, 2009, 11:10:58 pm
I explain here  http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17647&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

how to make a mTdi pump that works REALLY well.

I might have time to write an english version before summer or maybe not... but if someone wants to do it... go there is no copyrights!!
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: blkboostedtruck on January 18, 2009, 12:42:22 am
Quote from: "Hey"
I explain here  http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17647&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

how to make a mTdi pump that works REALLY well.

I might have time to write an english version before summer or maybe not... but if someone wants to do it... go there is no copyrights!!


yea just judging by the pics it looks to be a good write up! somebody can babelfish it to translate it so you would not have to re-write that in english!
save you lots of time hey!
Duane
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on January 20, 2009, 01:24:21 pm
I’ve been able to build my own mTdi pump successfully and, since it works really well, I though I should show you how to do it. Feel free to ask any questions and to share with others if you have good ideas.

In this post and the two following ones, I will used lots of pictures that gathered everywhere on the net. I will, from time to time, add some pictures so you might want to check or ask for photos.

I build a mTdi 10mm pump, so for those who know how to adjust the pump for 11mm and 12mm head go! I will give insight on how to adjust the pump, but I don’t know the exact settings.

I am not a native English speaker so I you feel the text needs improvement or that the grammar is incorrect at some places, PM me, I will make the change … and learn a little bit more English doing so.

How to install a Tdi hydraulic head

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/82a86jpegopy.jpg)
Image 1

KF setting
The first adjustment is done where the red arrow is located: the springs and initial springs load. The springs initial load(height) is adjustable with variable shims thicknesses. Both side must have the same length of springs and shims to avoid an unbalanced hydraulic head. This adjustment is called in Bosch ESItronic software the KF setting.

This KF setting, is measured on the other side of the hydraulic head. One unscrews the large stopper or cap (with a pipe ranch) to measure it (it is a three side ~24mm nut). This stopper is located at the same place where you make the timing adjustment of the pump (1mm before TDC). You put the hydraulic head on a table with the yellow facing down on the table. It is important not to apply to much pressure on the hydraulic head so that the springs are not compressed. Then, using a sliding gauge, measure the depth of the plunger from the edge of the hole of the plunger. For A4 Tdi’s springs, the KF setting should be between 8.2 and 8.6mm.

If you put more, the pump will be a little more difficult to turn, but you will have more power with high RPM. If you put less, the pump will be easier to turn, but the camplate may tend to skip on the rollers, resulting on less high RPM fuelling… the other advantage for a 12mm head would be to avoid seizing up the head, since less pressure means less heat.

Note that the A4 Tdi’s springs are longer than those of td’s (AAZ), but they seem less rigid. I thus do not advise you to take td’s springs with a KF setting of 8.6. If you have td’s springs put a KF setting between 5.4 and 6.6 which is the recommended setting for this type of spring.


K setting


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/ipump3a2wb-1.jpg)
Image 2

The second adjustment is done by the means of a small shim which is presented under the form of a button. This small button is placed where the blue arrow point. Its thickness is variable. You can use a grinding stone to adjust it

The K setting is measured in a similar way to the KF. The difference is that the hydraulic head must be assembled and screwed on the pump -always screw the 4 hydraulic head screws at the same time (gradually) if not you may bent the plunger. Then, when the hydraulic head is well screwed, you turn the pump shaft with a 19mm key (for 17mm shaft). The stopper should be removed so you can see the plunger going up and down as the camplate turns on the rollers. The K setting is the maximum distance between the edge of the hole of the plunger (inside the stopper) and the tip of the plunger.

In short, you turn the pump to ensure you that the travel of the plunger is at the minimal point (dead point) you measure it. You should have between 3.6 and 3.8mm. If you have less, it might be possible for the plunger to strike the stopper (the cap) at high RPM especially if your KF setting is very low. If you have more, it means that your plunger lower. In this case, it is as if you had already increased the injection quantity.

Cross and rollers


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/croix.jpg)
Image 3

The AAZ’s cross is different from the tdi’s one. That of td is weaker since it has a hollow in its center to accomodate a small spring. You can use the tdi one and forget the spring. The springs of the hydraulic head are so much more rigid than this little one that you can forget about it. Simply pay attention not to put the camplate 180° from it’s correct position. Remember the position of the pin pointed by the green line of image 2.

If ever you lost the position, the pin of the camplate must be aligned with the hollow on the “shaft” of the pump. If you have an adjustable pump on the pulley (double pulley), you will not see this hollow since there is a black adaptor on the shaft of pump. In this case, the pine of the camplate goes approximately 35° after (in the direction of rotation) the notch on the black adaptor of the shaft.

Pay attention to the rollers, there is a shim with them and this shim is convex. The convex part goes towards the outside of the pump…. just like if the shims where bent in a circle.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: rallydiesel on January 20, 2009, 01:53:01 pm
Awesome to see the sharing of knowledge! Thanks hey.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on January 20, 2009, 02:25:53 pm
No problem... I am a physicist... sharing information is all I do! I use a web site to help me traduce so I don't have to write everything back. I try to correct it as much as I can.

Injection lever modification

This is the most important part, but also the most difficult one. You must be able to weld pieces of small metal 2mm thick… a MIG is good enough.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/levier3.jpg)
Image 4

The pump sleeve is pointed by the red arrow. The more this sleeve is moved upwards, the more fuel the pumps inject. With a tdi camplate (in top of the yellow arrow), the plunger moves very quickly to the top (the camplate bumps are very sharp, abrupt) whereas for an indirect injection  camplate, the plunger moves slower to the top (less abrupt bumps). The fact of having abrupt bumps thus decreases the time of injection… this is one of the principal advantages of a DIRECT injection over an indirect one.

Saying that diesel is incompressible, is not completely true with pressures as high as those that one finds in an injection pump. When the plunger moves quickly to the top, the time of injection is shorter, but for the same sleeve position the injection quantity is lower with a tdi camplate than with a td camplate. This is due to the increased delay of injection with a tdi camplate between the beginning of the rise of the camplate on the rollers VS the injection of a diesel fume. It is also the reason for which the static advance must slightly be increased as the camplates become more abrupt. (0.95mm td, 1mm 1Z tdi, 1.05mm ALH).

The sleeve which regulates the injection quantity moves approximately 1.6mm in an AAZ pump and 2.6mm in a tdi-e pump. One must thus modify the pump to get on more 1mm of up/down play. It will thus be necessary to be VERY precise. In fact, you can have 2.6, 2.8,  3.2 mm, but if you are 2mm decentred you will get nowhere… the injection quantity screw will be at the maximum and the injection will be minuscule…. Or the injection quantity will be at the minimum and the idle will be 2000RPM.

What makes the sleeve move is the lever beside (at the left) the blue arrow. The vertical play allowed by this lever must be lengthened. To do so, one will lengthen the distance between the lever axis and the pin that is inserted inside the plunger sleeve. But as we are limited in what we can do (~5mm more) one will have to also lengthen the lever pointed by the green arrow of image 5.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/gouverneur_ralenticopy.jpg)
Image 5

Why don’t we only lengthen the lever pointed by the green arrow? Because the lever of image 4 is also used to control the idle by the help of the governor. If this lever is not lengthened, the governor will not be able to make the sleeve move enough to keep a regular idle.

Lengthen the lever pointed by the green arrow of image 5 to 13mm - 14mm between the middle of the two axis. Carefully keep the same angle so that the lever will not rub in the pump cover. Cut it with a hand saw. Take a small metal peice, a MIG and go!


Principal lever modification

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/levier1.jpg)
Image 6

The goal is to lengthen the distance between the axis of pivot (line red) and the pin(yellow line) which fits in the sleeve (at the end of the green line). In other words, one wants to increase the distance between the yellow and red lines. You will then cut the metal end at the end of the green line which holds the pin. Thereafter, one will further weld back this pine farther away ~5mm from the axis (indicated by the red line). This way when the lever moves, the pine chrome which fits in the sleeve of hydraulic head will traval more.

However, if you move away the pin, you will have to modify ALL the lever. If you don’t, you will bent the hydraulic head plunger. To avoid bending, decentring the pin, putting the pin too high or too low of 1 or 2mm, putting the pin too much to the left or to the right, etc one must make a gabarit (some kind of template) with an unmodified 1.9td lever. Make threads in your cabarit to hold your lever COMPLETELY as if it were in your pump at a given injection quantity position. IMPORTANT, when it is screwed NOTHING can move: the pin cannot move up and down and the 2 parts of the lever cannot move. Use an old hydraulic 9mm head from an AAZ pump and weld the plunger onto a plate. Also weld the sleeve on plunger, and put a system to lock the lever in the same position everytime. NOTHING must move and when you put it back, it is in the same position.

Step 1
To reassembled ALL the lever, there is no choice but to make another hole lower; i.e. between the hole of the retaining screws and lever axis. The bore is 5mm diameter and there is approximately 7mm of space. You thus do not have any room for play between the 2. Put the hole in the center. Image 7 allows to see that you will have a play from left to right… green circle VS  purple circle. If you drill in the green direction, you will have to remove shims behind the governor (toothed wheel). If you drill on the purple side, you will need to add shims behind the governor. Try to bore in the center, but ESPECIALLY ensure that you drill equally on the 2 sides (so the lever is not twisted). To use a with cement drill bit 5mm  diameter (do not make it turn too fast) if it is too difficult to bore.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/levier2.jpg)
Image 7


Once you made the holes, put the lever back in the pump –using the new holes- without the hydraulic head installed and ensure that the whole lever moves correctly. You may have to grind a little the end of the retaining screws who will surely rub on the lever.

Step 2
Put your lever in your gabarit and weld the pin to the same exact configuration as before..but ~5mm away. It must be EXACTLY at the same position as before: left, right, and especially up and down, but 5mm further (I say 5mm but that depends from where you have to bore, it can be 5.3mm, 5.2mm, 5.4.. etc).

WARNING: If you bored 5mm higher and you welded the pin only 5.4mm away, your pin will be 0.4mm too far. It will then push on the hydraulic head which may bent. Ensure to have the same depth of insertion of the pin with your modified and original lever. To avoid going too far, I built my gabarit by putting the pin of the original lever COMPLETELY at the bottom of the hole of the sleeve.

Step 3
Since you upped your lever of ~5mm, it will rub in your pump cover. You must then remove 5mm at 2 places. The first place is indicated by the blue line of image 6. You cut it and that’s all!!

The second place is indicated by the purple line of image 7. You must weld it back though. This part of the lever is in fact the place where the bolt allowing to adjust the injection quantity is pressing. You must weld it back precisely using your gabarit. Also, weld it just enough to hold it. Put the lever back in place in the pump, with the cover on and put grease at the end of the injection quantity bolt. You should see the place of contact by a trace of grease on the lever.
 
Once again, use the gabarit to weld it to the good position. If you do not weld this axis at the good place, your adjusting bolt will be too long or too short.


Gabarit modifications
If you think that your adjusting bolt is too long or too short, that you do not have enough or too much fuel injected, you can modify the position of the lever pin so that it is in the direction + fuel or – fuel by modifying your gabarit. Put an adjustment screw on you gabarit to hold the lever in place. This way you will be able to unsolder your lever pin and adjust it as you like.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on January 20, 2009, 03:31:56 pm
Governor adjustment
There are here 3 adjustments to make.

First, depending on where you have drill the principal lever …towards the green or purple side (see image 7) you will have to remove or put shims at the place pointed by the red arrow of image 8. To know how much to add or to remove, measure the distance, with an original lever I measured 23.5mm, between the external edge on the right side of the pump (right on the image also) and the back of the lever WHEN the principal lever is at the leftmost position AND the lever which adjusts the quantity of injection is at the rightmost position(initial position).

In other words, you have to measure the maximum travel of the lever towards the left. In my case, I measured from the outside edge of the pump to the back of the lever: a sliding gauge supported beside the edge and the sliding part on the little metal piece encaging the small spring.

Use an original and a modified lever to have the same measure. If you put more distance, the governor will be less efficient (more fuel but idle may become erratic), if you put less distance, the governor will decrease the injection quantity before 4000RPM.

I first had 1mm less and it was working well… the LDA wasn’t working much and I could feel the car stop accelerate à 3000RPM at ½ throttle position. At full throttle I could not feel anything though. I have now 23.4mm and it is perfect!


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/ajustementgouverneur.jpg)
Image 8

Second, you will have to lengthen the axis that makes it possible to adjust the idle on a 1.9td. It is the axis after which a small spring is installed to draw on the principal lever. You must lengthen it of 30% in theory. I did not do it, so I do not know if it’s the good length. The simplest way is to take a piece from a 1.6D pump.

See at the end of the red arrow of image 9, there is a small spring. It is what can replace the idle system on these 1.9td pumps. With this spring system you will not need to lengthen another lever.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/gouverneur_ralenticopy.jpg)
Image 9

 Third
You must adjust the dept of the regulator axis.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/axegouverneur.jpg)
Image 10

You must adjust the axis so that the small holes on the regulator sleeve (look between the wings of the governor with a strong lamp) mask completely the hole approximately 0.25 to 0.5mm before arriving at the end of travel.

If you hear the engine clatter to much at ¾ throttle, unscrew a little bit the axis.

Pump cover modification
Until now, the only thing connected to the pump cover is if you have replace the idle system with one of the 1.6td system.

There is a lever to cut in the pump cover. Unfortunately, I do not have photographs. It is the lever which determines up to what point the LDA (boost pin) can give a greater quantity of injection OR if you prefer, up to what point the principal lever can travel to the t-belt side of the pump. You can see the external part of this lever when the pump is assembled on the engine. This lever NEVER moves. To cut the interior part and you will have all the freedom of a fully functional LDA, which will help avoid smoke at low RPM.

Also, it makes it possible for the pump to increase the timing advance as more fuel is injected (see adjusting the third adjustement of the governor) since the governor sleeve goes fully to the left.

About those governor sleeves. I tried one with 4 thin holes… you could hear the engine clatter at a given point. It means that the timing advance increased rapidly. I have now a 2 holes sleeve with larger holes (more a crack than a hole!!). It is smoother like this and I think the timing advance VS fuel quantity is more accurate, gradual and natural!

Timing advance
Myth #1: A 1.9td timing advance system (piston+springs) is not suitable for tdi since they need more advance.  F A L S E!

A tdi engine AND a AAZ engine both needs a little bit less than 20°crankshaft advance. The 1.9td piston travels 9.5mm which represents 20°cranksahft advance. The tdi system allows for more advance true BUT at idle the timing piston already traveled 2-3mm allowing the electronic to compensate for temperature or bad static timing. So if you use a tdi system, at idle the piston will already move 2-3mm. If you timed the car at 1mm BTDC, the clatter will be too much. You will have to time the car at 0.8mm BTDC which will result in bad cold wheater starting and you won’t be able to use the cold start advance system (believe me, with a 10mm head and .184 injector you need it… with a 12mm head and .230 injector my father don’t need it.. no smokes!!)

So if you use the tdi system, my advice is to put more shims behind the piston spring as to have the same initial load on the spring as a 1.6Td  NOT  1.9td. The 1.9td spring is very smooth because it is a 2 spring system which is completely different. Use a weighing machine and press on a 1.6td timing piston until it barely moves.. note the weigh. Then increase the shims thickness until you have the same value with a tdi system. (N.B. I did not tried it, but this is what I would do!) If you don’t have a 1.6td pump… you can calculate it. Remember that the force applied is equal to (F=PA) pressure*surface. The surface is the surface of a circle (piston diameter) and the pressure could be measured.

So I suggest you use the 1.9td system whitout any modifications. For a 10mm head use a 1.6td regulator. The spring system is a one spring type and it requires a little bit more pressure to work… this little more pressure is only what you need for the 10mm head.

If you want a 11mm or 12mm, you will have to find the good combination between the regulator and the shims adjustment of the piston springs because I don't know it!!.

EDIT: For a 11mm head, a tdi advance system with additional shims (to avoid the timing advance at idle) and with a 1.6td regulator seems to work.

However, the advance system with 2 springs is then very effective. The small spring acts like a second regulator. You could in fact keep the 1.9td regulator for a 11mm or 12mm by adjusting the rigidity of the small and big springs. It is easier to change the regulator since you don’t need to get the pump out of the car to adjust it.

The small spring pushes a stem which, when it is completely recessed, makes it possible for the diesel to go back to the 0 psi pressure side (entrance)… thus to reduce the pressure. When the spring is compressed, less diesel can turn go back to the pump entry. This spring is very soft because the diameter of the stem is small. The F=pA Force where p=pression and A=surface of the stem=1/4*pi*diamètre^2. In fact, this small spring may appear smooth but it is rigid enough for the size of the stem.

Logically (not tested) one should have this: the softer is the small spring the more the pressure goes up quickly in the pump. The harder it gets the longer it takes in term of RPM for the pressure to go up  in the pump. In fact, this small spring seems to control the timing advance of the low RPM.  The large spring will influence all the RPM range.

 
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: rallydiesel on January 20, 2009, 04:08:11 pm
This is what I've been looking for.  8)
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: foxracer1 on January 21, 2009, 10:16:40 am
Quote from: "rallydiesel"
This is what I've been looking for.  8)


I 2nd that! I'm getting ready to build one this wknd. Thank you very much.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on January 21, 2009, 11:05:34 am
This

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16792

Could be really usefull to drill the 2 holes into the principal lever.

If you don't want to play with shims behind the governor, you will need to "back" the lever about 0.5mm to 1mm since the contact point between the regulator axis sleeve and the principal lever will be ~5mm upward.

If you look carefully (use a sliding gauge to measure) the "new" contact point distance according to the original one!

In the figure 1 bellow the black circle represent the initial contact point. The red circle represent the NEW contact point

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/levercontactpoint.jpg)
figure 1

If you look at it from the side you have something that looks like figure 2 bellow.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/levercontactpointexplanation.jpg)
Figure 2

You see the contact point distance D1 and D2 are not the same. THere is a difference showed by the two green lines. About 1mm or a little bit less

When drilling you CAN compensate by backing the 2 holes a little bit more in the same direction so that the WHOLE lever will go toward the hydraulic head.

If you don't.. it will work anyway! But if you make an CAD drawing... it would be easy to implement!! And if you do... post the CAD file!!
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Ziptar on January 21, 2009, 09:00:03 pm
Nice!  Really great Info, thanks for adding to the FAQ!
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on February 23, 2009, 12:28:16 pm
I had a problem with the idi timing lever at the back of the pump. DON'T use it.  It disasemble itself twice and Named Tintin had also told me a similar story. There is too much wibration with a DI camplate and maybe this is why it didn't worked.

You don't need it as the tdi will start just fine. You can always use 12V on the selenoid at the front of the pump to increase timing at idle when below -20°C (the car will fume for 15minutes if you don't at these temperatures)

Instead of the idi lever, you can use the stop plate from the TDi-e pump. It has 4 holes, but you use 2 and it will work just fine. Use gasket paste if you want but DONT use the tdi gasket as it will leak (look carefully at it and you will see why... this gasket needs 4 bolts)

There is the lever that you shouldn't use:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/IMG_1487.jpg)


Also, if you need infos to inderstand a pump:


http://www.vwquebec.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=197994
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 04, 2009, 09:55:19 am
EDIT:
For those who wanted to see what the cabarit looks like here are some pics.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/gabarit002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/gabarit003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/gabarit005.jpg)



IT is a non-modified lever
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jtanguay on March 04, 2009, 12:22:43 pm
i've been using the timing advance lever for a little while now (only for about 10-30 seconds to a minute at idle to let the engine smooth out) and i haven't had any problems.

i don't have a 12mm head though.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 04, 2009, 01:14:54 pm
the DI camplate makes a lot of vibration in the whole pump at low RPM... this is what is going to get the retaining circlip out! This is also the reason why they added a roller from td to tdi. I don't have a 12mm head (10mm only) and it broke twice after about 1000km to 2000km.

Don't go too far without the tools to repair it in case it breaks.

Do you have fuel leaking out? Is it always wet in this area?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: foxracer1 on March 05, 2009, 09:31:25 am
Quote from: "Hey"
EDIT:
For those who wanted to see what the cabarit looks like here are some pics.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/gabarit002.jpg)

IT is a non-modified lever


Is that what you use to get the new fulcrum points for the TDI? Kinda like a gauge.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 06, 2009, 12:08:06 pm
No, I measured directly when it is inside the pump.

I also measured the maxium pivot movement from an e-tdi pump.

Someone also cut a pump to make a cabarit:

look here: http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17647&start=30
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dieselherb1 on March 06, 2009, 09:43:48 pm
Quote from: "Hey"
the DI camplate makes a lot of vibration in the whole pump at low RPM... this is what is going to get the retaining circlip out! This is also the reason why they added a roller from td to tdi. I don't have a 12mm head (10mm only) and it broke twice after about 1000km to 2000km.

Don't go too far without the tools to repair it in case it breaks.

Do you have fuel leaking out? Is it always wet in this area?


And what breaks? the retaining circleclip? Or the roller? And can this be fix on the road in the dark while its snowing?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 07, 2009, 05:25:59 pm
lol! Yes the retaining circlip will get away... and about the dark snowy night... anything is possible, it only depends on you.

But I wouldn't want to test myself at night at -20°C... I repaired this at -20°C during the day while snowing and it wasn't fun anymore.

Just don't do the same mistakes as everyone else. One guy in France had to change this on the side road twice on a eurovan mtdi and Named Tintin had also told me it would leak.  Three independant people.. all with the same problem. It is enough to convince me.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jtanguay on March 07, 2009, 06:08:20 pm
Quote from: "Hey"
the DI camplate makes a lot of vibration in the whole pump at low RPM... this is what is going to get the retaining circlip out! This is also the reason why they added a roller from td to tdi. I don't have a 12mm head (10mm only) and it broke twice after about 1000km to 2000km.

Don't go too far without the tools to repair it in case it breaks.

Do you have fuel leaking out? Is it always wet in this area?


nothing wrong with the pump.  no leaks or anything.  Giles built it for me  :D

the advance lever works like it did on my old car.  rpm & timing boost.  timing boost is nullified at about 1800 rpm or so though so i don't think it would make too much problems.

i hope the vibrations won't wreck anything, but we'll see.  i bought a CTN transmission specifically to reduce my rpm's to keep everything happy.  and save a bit of $$$ on fuel  8)
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on March 10, 2009, 03:00:41 pm
Hey, thank you very much for all the info, it's exactly what I was looking for as well.  I've modified my control lever as you have stated and I think it is going to work well.  I have run into a few clearance issues between the lever and the pump but nothing a file couldn't fix.  

If I was to do this again there's one thing that I would do differently.  Instead of cutting down the top of the lever at the two places indicated, I think I would try shimming the entire top of the pump about 5mm using a piece of aluminum with a slot cut into one side to hold another o-ring gasket.  I haven't tested the pump yet but it seems to be binding a lttle when the caged governer spring is hooked up.  I think the reason for this is the caged spring governer lever is no longer lined up correctly.  Any thoughts anyone?

Also my first pump housing I started with was a 1.6 td.  To overcome the lack of advance on the advance piston, I installed a 3mm shim between the cover and the pump giving me the extra room to get about 9.5mm of movement.  This should work but I haven't tested this either.


I'm new to this forum but have been reading for a long time.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: rallydiesel on March 10, 2009, 05:47:07 pm
What's a cabarit?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on March 17, 2009, 11:24:46 am
I have completed and tested my pump after following heys very detailed instructions.  After modifying the control lever I had 2 extra changes I had to make so everything would move freely.  The lda lever was rubbing against the top of the control lever so I trimmed about 3mm off the bottom of the lda lever.  That was enough to give me some clearance between the two.  

         The caged spring governer was also binding a little where it hooks up to the control lever since this is no longer a straight pull because the  control lever is higher.  Using a dremel, I just removed a very small amount of material corresponding to the angle that the caged spring now operates at.  These two mods totally cured any binding of movement once the top cover was bolted on.

          The toughest part for me was drilling the holes thru the control lever.  This is some of the hardest steel I have ever drilled.  I found that a cobalt drill bit worked the best.  

           Just like hey stated, I did not modify the throttle lever length either and I didn't shim any of the caged governer springs.  Good luck to who ever wishes to attempt a pump like this, it's alot of fun!
Title: My modified lever
Post by: Sierra94 on March 17, 2009, 01:15:13 pm
Please share your thoughts. I took some pics of my lever under construction. Might be useful in this faq. If anything looks wrong, please tell me and I will rebuild it.

Edit: I fixed my old broken links!

(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1824/34915372.jpg)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1361/64388614.jpg)
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2521/81691181.jpg)
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4630/53426710.jpg)
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 17, 2009, 11:59:33 pm
Quote
The lda lever was rubbing against the top of the control lever so I trimmed about 3mm off the bottom of the lda lever


I thought I mentionned it... sorry. I will make the correction

Quote

 This is some of the hardest steel I have ever drilled. I found that a cobalt drill bit worked the best.
 hahaha!! It is really hard to drill!

Quote
I did not modify the throttle lever length
If you can still reach maximum movement and have a good idle, then it's all good. If you ever feel the fuel is not sensitive enough or you can't have a low enough idle, then make this lever a little bit longer.

very nice job! I am really happy it worked well and that my explanations were usefull!! Thank you for sharing!

To Sierra94:
wow!!! really nice job!!

I can see you also grinded where the throttle lever gets attached, like 410 mentionned.

If you made a gabarit then everything is perfect... you are good to go!  Make sure the throttle lever is between 13 to 14mm. According to 410 it is not necessary but I think it's best to do it since it you will have more room to adjust idle and to play with the fuel srew.

Also, grind the boost pin lever or cut it a little bit (because the lever you are showing will be higher in the cover)... adjust the governor if needed (23.5mm from back of lever to housing outside border)... that's it!

Keep us informed of the progress.


To both of you: Are you going (or did you) to keep the 1.9td idle system or you will(are using) use a 1.6td one?

If you kept the 1.9td idle system, then can you tell us what lenght was you idle lever. I said that in theory you need to increase the lengt by 30% I think, but I never tried.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Sierra94 on March 18, 2009, 06:45:47 am
:D

I´m already using the 1.6 idle system in my IP. And I trimmed the LDA lever aswell as the throttle lever so they won´t bind during their movement.

And I also grinded some material of the governor cage lever like 410 did to keep it from binding due to incorrect angles.

It will soon be installed in the car and tested. Right now I´m using a 1.9 TD IP with 12 mm head and all the other "free" mods done to it. But It lacks power compared when it was installed on the AAZ engine. So this will be interesting.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 18, 2009, 05:31:41 pm
Nice... keep us informed and tell us what you think of the final result!

If you use a 12mm head, you will need to make adjustment for the timing curve. I unfortunately don't know which regulator/advance system combo to use. I think a 1.9td advance system with a IVECO pump regulator could work pretty well... but never tested.

If the timing advance was ok before, it will still be ok.

I know that a stock 12mm mtdi bosch pump has:

regulator
# 1 460 362 020
advance system large spring : 1 464 618 934 (which is the same as the AAZ one)
advance system small spring : 1 464 616 333 (1 464 616 963 on an AAZ pump)

advance system piston 1 463 104 657 (1 463 104 564 on an AAZ pump)

So the main spring is the same on a AAZ pump, but the advance system is different so you may need to adjust the shims. Also, the small spring is different so you may also need to adjust the shims.

You will also need a regulator that allows higher pressure. Usually mechanical pump with only ONE spring as advance system will have regulator that allows for higher pressure. So instead of the 1 460 362 020 regulator you could use a regulator from a 11mm pump with a one spring advance system. On a IVECO pump you have just that, and they seem easy to find.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: foxracer1 on March 18, 2009, 09:26:32 pm
[/quote]Image 10

You must adjust the axis so that the small holes on the regulator sleeve (look between the wings of the governor with a strong lamp) mask completely the hole approximately 0.25 to 0.5mm before arriving at the end of travel.

If you hear the engine clatter to much at ¾ throttle, unscrew a little bit the axis.
Quote


How do you adjust this? I put my IDI ump together with a TDI 10mm head/plunger and i have a lot of clater at part throttle. i backed the gov shaft out 1.5 turns and its better but i wanna know how to adjust it
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 19, 2009, 10:58:37 am
Once the pump is on your car, you can adjust it by ear and feeling. Also, don't forget to adjust the regulator by putting your car in 3rd or 4th an snapping it until 4000rpm. The car should feel strong up to 4000rpm.

Did you also modify the levers? put tdi camplate? 1.6td regulator?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: foxracer1 on March 19, 2009, 03:10:17 pm
I just set it up for IDI used everything IDI except the plunger and head. I pulled everthing but the vane pump apart. I counted the turns out when i removed the gov shaft but don't feel confident i got it back in correctly. I drilled a hole in the pump mount bracket so i can adjust it with out removing the pump.

I just rebuilt the engine so i'm not running full fuel or boost yet till i get some miles on it.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dts67 on March 22, 2009, 09:53:45 am
Hi, where I live theres several vans and cars running factory m-tdi setup, Ive stripped a few and the di camplate seems very similar to the vw, can I use the gov and principle levers from one of these pumps instead of modding my own? They seem to be pre modified although I havent made a gabarit to check the principle lever travel heres a pic of the governor levers. All the factory m-tdi governor levers I've seen dont seem to use an intermediate spring in the assembly?
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv66/del635/dturbo%20pump/P2150002.jpg)[/img]
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 23, 2009, 07:51:14 pm
Do they have a dual axis principal lever?
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: snakemaster on March 24, 2009, 04:51:00 pm
Quote from: "dts67"
Hi, where I live theres several vans and cars running factory m-tdi setup, Ive stripped a few and the di camplate seems very similar to the vw, can I use the gov and principle levers from one of these pumps instead of modding my own? They seem to be pre modified although I havent made a gabarit to check the principle lever travel heres a pic of the governor levers. All the factory m-tdi governor levers I've seen dont seem to use an intermediate spring in the assembly?
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv66/del635/dturbo%20pump/P2150002.jpg)[/img]


vw m-tdis ? you got more info on this .
 that governor lever on the left lookes like a transit di one
i have done my control lever in a difrant way , but serves the same movment to the control spool
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dts67 on March 24, 2009, 08:09:41 pm
@snakemaster- No, not vws, so far rover 2.0d and transit I've stripped but seen others. The lever is from a rover but the transits looks the same.
@hey- I'm near sure it is, I'll check tomorrow. I'm trying to get a di camplate working in an idi engine (1.9 psa xud), I've read nearly all your 'english' posts and know roughly what to do, you mentioned setting the break point of the injectors to match the camplate, thats no problem but do I then need pre-injection and 2 spring injectors? I've had the car running with an afn di camplate in the pump but the principle lever travel is to short and the engine is LOUD with injectors @175 bar :lol:
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 25, 2009, 07:01:41 pm
Quote
I've had the car running with an afn di camplate in the pump but the principle lever travel is to short


Yes.. you give very little fuel but a lot of advance with this lever and a Di camplate.

For the dual axis lever:

if the principal lever is a dual axis one you will need to use the throttle lever with only one spring because if you use a 1.6td one you will have unstable idle ~1300RPM. (check at the end of the post by beslau on the french part... page 8 )
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17942&start=105

He had a dual axis principal lever with a 1.6td throttle lever spring set and he had problems because the dual axis lever ALREADY integrate a function to regularize the idle.. so you need a throttle lever that does not have a idle spring (the very soft one).

I think using a 1.6td throttle spring set with the idle spring removed could work.

Also.. the throttle lever he uses with this type of principal lever have 17mm between the two axis. The one you show seems to have only 14mm. You might need to "improve" this a little bit.


Keep us informed on the idi with DI camplate project!
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on March 25, 2009, 08:47:40 pm
Well, I've been running my pump now for about a 100km of various kinds of driving and things are going well.  Here's my list.
-TDI camplate
-11mm head
-aaz pump body and mech. adv.
-1.6 top with unmodified throttle lever
-Modified control lever as per heys instructions

I've noticed cold starts aren't the best.  So I advanced the basic timing just a little bit and now it's a little noisy.  But the power is better in the top end.  

So I'm thinking of backing the pump back just a little bit and removing a shim for the large spring on the mechanical advance.  I was also thinking about using the cold start lever for cooler days but I'm a little worried about it letting go on me.  Anyway, the pump does work well, I just have some fine tuning left.  This little tdi moves my toyota pickup around very well.  Weighing in at 3700lb!  Thanks again hey for all your writeups, and everyone else who has contributed.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 25, 2009, 10:08:19 pm
nice job... happy for you!!!

Since you have a 11mm head, if you want.. use a tdi advance system with the 1.6td regulator. It should work very well for your 11mm head for 1000RPM to 4000RPM

Set it to 1mm... it may clatter more at idle but it's ok.. if you want the clatter to go away at idle, you may increase the tdi shim thickness (of the advance spring) just very little.

If you keep the 1.9td system you may remove a shim (better to use a thinner one instead of removing it)  as you said AND you may also put a 12V switch for the selenoid in the front of the pump for cold start idling. You may also set it between 1mm and 1.15mm... depending on the clatter.

Also, adjust the regulator if needed.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on March 25, 2009, 11:38:06 pm
Hey, when you say 1.6 regulator, do you mean the advance piston or the rotating weights?  which is what I call the governer.   I don't have a tdi advance mechanism so I think I'll stay with the 1.9 setup.  

I moved the pump today just a little bit to try to get a better cold start but I totally forgot about the solenoid on the side of the pump!  Thanks again Hey.  I had that solenoid hooked up when I was running the aaz pump in stock form on the tdi and it started awsome just didn't do anything else very well.

I'm just going to reset my basic timing, rewire that solenoid and drive it.  I really am just getting picky,
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 26, 2009, 08:20:23 am
DON'T put 12V on this selenoid all the time... just for idling!

The governor is the thing with the rotating weight... the regulator is screwed in the pump close to the t-belt.

Look here,
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18852 (in french though.. use the word version and the traduction utility)
or http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18856

there is a picture of the regulator in figure 4 and 7. Use a 1.6td one (if you can have one it would be easier) and try adjusting it. ....  play with shims for the advance system.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dts67 on March 26, 2009, 08:27:56 am
@hey- Thanks man, the principle lever is dual axis and Ive a longer throttle lever than the one pictured, I'll be shimming the injectors out at the weekend and refitting the pump with an 11mm head and the levers then I'll work on advance. I'll report idi w/di plate results back soon after.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on March 26, 2009, 09:03:21 am
For the advance timig read this ... about the dual spring advance system:

http://www.4shared.com/file/95083796/3a65a2f/dual_springs_advance_system_english.html
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: foxracer1 on April 05, 2009, 12:15:19 am
What adds advance with the throttle input going in or out with the gov shaft adjustment. My is noisy at cruise throttle. I backed it out a turn and a half cause i think i miss counted when reassembling the pump. But i'm not 100% sure which way i was off.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Holger_M on April 17, 2009, 05:49:35 am
Hello,

As i understand, the base pump for this undertaking is a AAZ unit + 1z head, right? Would it be possible to use a 1.6 td from a jx engine, as this leaves more space to the engine cover in a vanagon. I got a syncro, so i could put in a aaz pump, but they are hard to source in germany, and there's a lot of jx pumps in my workshop. What is the problem with 1.6 pumps + 1z head so everybody uses the aaz pump?

Holger
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on April 17, 2009, 09:51:14 am
The only problem with the 1.6td pump is that the advance system is single spring. Also it was easier for me to use the advance system from a AAZ pump since I already knew that 1.6td regulator+1.9td advance system would work nice with a 10mm head

If you want to use a1.6td pump and a 10mm head, the timing advance won't be perfect. You could use a tdi advance system  (with the tdi caps) and the 1.9td regulator... that would work.

SInce you don't have AAZ pump, you could put the tdi advance system+1.6td regulator AND a 11mm head.

You could also had a little shim to the tdi advance system so that the engine won't clatter to much at idle... but some people are running without any shims with good results.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: mr.mtdi on April 18, 2009, 06:47:46 pm
Quote from: "Holger_M"
Hello,

As i understand, the base pump for this undertaking is a AAZ unit + 1z head, right? Would it be possible to use a 1.6 td from a jx engine, as this leaves more space to the engine cover in a vanagon. I got a syncro, so i could put in a aaz pump, but they are hard to source in germany, and there's a lot of jx pumps in my workshop. What is the problem with 1.6 pumps + 1z head so everybody uses the aaz pump?

Holger


Hi Holger! I Think you already know me from th ig 16"syncro forum. My nick there is michi84..
The JX Pump does not fit on the TDI. You get proplems withe space for the injection pipes and the LDA. I also think its better to use a 20mm shaft if you use 10mm or 11mm heads because of the high torsion. There are so many 20mm Pumps on Ebay for little money. I think its also better to usa a 11mm head for a Vanagon. If you still are searching for an AAZ Pump write me an PM.
Greats
Michael
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on May 04, 2009, 11:33:04 pm
I have installed a tdi ECU on the cranksensor and #3 injector and made some experiments with vagcom.

The tdi is installed in a dodge dakota m-tdi with 12mm head and .230 injectors.

The injection quantity returned by the vagcom was way out, but the timing was coming out really good.

At 0.96mm the timing reads 3.5deg a idle.
We put the timing at 6deg at idle (like a tdi-e with 5deg more timing in adaptation channel) and made some runs. Timing decreases between idle and 2000RPM at 90km/h,  (from 6 to 3) which could be a little less timing than a tdi-e. We tried advancing timing at idle to 11deg, we had 8-9 deg at 2000RPM, but this was way to much as the engine would go to higher RPM with much difficulty.

We didn't made a log of the timing from 1500RPM to 4000RPM at different load, but we might next time.

We were able to see that timing was decreasing between 1/4load and 3/4load and increasing very fast at the end. (we could even feel the pickup accelerating with timing). So we screwed in the governor axis half a turn and then the timing was increasing gradually up to full load.

At 90km/h  and 2000RPM the timing was around 5deg. On a tdi-e, timing is around 0deg at the RPM and load.

At full load, timing was between 11 and 12deg at 2200tr. On a tdi-e timing is around 8 deg at this RPM and load.

Overall, the pump act just like a tdi-e one with 5deg more timing in the  adaption channel.

I think we would need some kind of stopper on the pump to make logs at differents load on the pump and at higher RPM (with 12mm head, we dont like to go over 3000RPM)

THe dakota is 4x4. EGT stays under 800F when cruising over 100km/h. Oil temp rarely rise up to 200F (usually 180F) and radiator fan pretty much never runs.
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jimbote on May 07, 2009, 10:09:26 am
Quote from: "Hey"
I have installed a tdi ECU on the cranksensor and #3 injector and made some experiments with vagcom.

The tdi is installed in a dodge dakota m-tdi with 12mm head and .230 injectors.

The injection quantity returned by the vagcom was way out, but the timing was coming out really good.

At 0.96mm the timing reads 3.5deg a idle.
We put the timing at 6deg at idle (like a tdi-e with 5deg more timing in adaptation channel) and made some runs. Timing decreases between idle and 2000RPM at 90km/h,  (from 6 to 3) which could be a little less timing than a tdi-e. We tried advancing timing at idle to 11deg, we had 8-9 deg at 2000RPM, but this was way to much as the engine would go to higher RPM with much difficulty.

We didn't made a log of the timing from 1500RPM to 4000RPM at different load, but we might next time.

We were able to see that timing was decreasing between 1/4load and 3/4load and increasing very fast at the end. (we could even feel the pickup accelerating with timing). So we screwed in the governor axis half a turn and then the timing was increasing gradually up to full load.

At 90km/h  and 2000RPM the timing was around 5deg. On a tdi-e, timing is around 0deg at the RPM and load.

At full load, timing was between 11 and 12deg at 2200tr. On a tdi-e timing is around 8 deg at this RPM and load.

Overall, the pump act just like a tdi-e one with 5deg more timing in the  adaption channel.

I think we would need some kind of stopper on the pump to make logs at differents load on the pump and at higher RPM (with 12mm head, we dont like to go over 3000RPM)

THe dakota is 4x4. EGT stays under 800F when cruising over 100km/h. Oil temp rarely rise up to 200F (usually 180F) and radiator fan pretty much never runs.


Very interested in your ecm setup to check timing parameters with vag-com....please share :D
Title: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on May 07, 2009, 05:12:44 pm
Quote
your ecm setup

 ???

not sure to known what you are referring to!
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on May 31, 2009, 08:27:42 pm
Well, I have about 1200 km on my mtdi now and things are good.  I've been fine tuning a little lately trying to improve the timing.  I installed a pressure gauge to read internal pump pressure to get an idea of whats going on.  Turns out that I was not getting a pressure increase under heavy load or any load for that matter.  So I removed the timing cover, drilled a hole thru the injection pump bracket so I could adjust the governer axis without removing the pump.  I found this trick on the french side of the forums.  I then turned the axis in one full turn and bingo!  Instant pressure increase under load.  Too much actually.  I had to back it off quarter turn.

I also advanced the base timng by ear to the point where I was getting just a tiny little bit of clatter.   

I tapped into the injection pump by drilling and tapping the end of the return line bolt and installed a 6mm bolt with a locking nut and made a nipple on the end of it. 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: DA-BRT on June 02, 2009, 06:11:26 am
So I removed the timing cover, drilled a hole thru the injection pump bracket so I could adjust the governer axis without removing the pump.  I found this trick on the french side of the forums.  I then turned the axis in one full turn and bingo!  Instant pressure increase under load.  Too much actually.  I had to back it off quarter turn.

Can you please illustrate this, because I can't follow you.

Do you mean that now you can adjust the trottle leaver inside the cover of the pump? If yes, why wasn't it accessable before?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on June 02, 2009, 09:42:21 pm
Thanks Andrew, that's exactly what I meant! :)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: DA-BRT on June 03, 2009, 03:01:15 am
Yeah... Now I got it. The inside hexagon bolt with M8 locknut.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on June 04, 2009, 10:40:32 am
For those who don't have a pressure gage.. here how you can adjust this part. You turn the screw until you can hear the clatter increase when you accelerate (more load). Then you unscrew barely until you don't hear it anymore.... at the end you will just hear the engine roaring more but not with more clatter.

I have done about 10 000km with the tdi-m engine ( I rebuilded my 1.9idi to 1.9tdi). So far during winter I had 5.5 to 5.7l/100km fuel economy.

Last tank was 4.8l/100km... going between 115 and 120km/h. I also passed an afternoon with the pedal to the metal or pretty much trying adjustment for the VNT controler.... and to finish... this was mixt road/town driving. UNBELIEVABLE!

These m-tdi are sooo efficient.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dieselherb1 on June 05, 2009, 08:05:11 am
Hey,
Are you using TDI injectors?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on June 05, 2009, 02:41:19 pm
Yes.. but to use tdi injectors you need the tdi pistons and tdi head.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dieselherb1 on June 07, 2009, 09:34:59 pm
I have a 1Z engine. And now I have a ALH engine, needs head rebuilt. Car had a underhood fire melted all the plastic onto the engine, burnt the wiring, 2002. Does the 2002 ALH IP have a 10 or 11mm head? Manual trans.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on June 08, 2009, 10:44:35 am
10mm pump

Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dts67 on June 11, 2009, 08:49:38 am
He means the adjustment of the shaft on which the governor gear/flyweights are mounted.  It is normally inaccessible due to the pump bracket being in the way.

 
So adjusting this increases internal pump pressure ie more advance? Or am I missing something from previous posts?
Thanks
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: superspringer on July 11, 2009, 01:24:47 pm

How do I know what Bosch VE Pump I have or am looking at buying?
The Bosch part number on the Bosch VEs pumps are fairly standard i.e. 0-460-4XX-XXX VE , what are important to note are the 6th and 7th digits of the Bosch Number. The 6th digit indicates the plunger size, 9 for 9mm, 0-10mm, 1-11mm, 2 for12mm. The 7th digit the is the application, 4 for 4cyl., 6 for 6cyl., etc. The specific manufacturers part number may also be on the pump and completly different, for example, the Cummins 4BT injection pump numbers do not indicate plunger size, everyone I have seen to date has been 12mm. Since the 4BT is a 4 Cylinder engine we can assume that part.
3917530  1986-90 VE Series Rotary, CPL 858, 105 HP
3908191   1986-90 VE Series Rotary, CPL 767, 105 HP
3917535  1986-90 VE Series Rotary, CPL 857, 120 HP
3906631  1986-90  VE Series Rotary, CPL 593, 105 HP
3919716  1991-93  VE Series Rotary, CPL 1260, 105 HP
3926831   1991-93 VE Series Rotary, CPL 986 & 1848, 120 HP
The only way to know for sure is with the Bosch part Number.


I don't know if this link has been posted before but it is very useful for crossing Bosch and vehicle manufacturers P/Ns and even finding #s for indevidual pump parts by application.

The pages take a minute or two to load.

enjoy.

http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm

Ok...... so I am trying to get a grip with the Bosch or VAG part number for any VAG 11mm (auto trans) electric pump. From the first quote (which seems to make logical sense) it would appear that there would be an 0-460-414-XXX pump that would be fitted to a VW application, but I could not find one on the list in the 2nd quote.
Does anyone have any actual part numbers and application that I can use to trawl through E-bay / scrapyards / classifieds please? So far every "breaking TDI" I have emailed on ebay has come back with a 0-460-404-XXX, regardless of transmission.

Or could it be that there are some 11 mm pumps with 0-460-404-XXX part numbers????
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: dts67 on July 13, 2009, 03:08:28 pm


Ok...... so I am trying to get a grip with the Bosch or VAG part number for any VAG 11mm (auto trans) electric pump. From the first quote (which seems to make logical sense) it would appear that there would be an 0-460-414-XXX pump that would be fitted to a VW application, but I could not find one on the list in the 2nd quote.
Does anyone have any actual part numbers and application that I can use to trawl through E-bay / scrapyards / classifieds please? So far every "breaking TDI" I have emailed on ebay has come back with a 0-460-404-XXX, regardless of transmission.

Or could it be that there are some 11 mm pumps with 0-460-404-XXX part numbers????
All bosch pumped ford transit 2.5 di's, the 'smiley face' ones, my '95-'99, have an 11mm head, thats what I used. Common as muck and cheap as chips!
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: foxracer1 on July 13, 2009, 11:21:00 pm

All bosch pumped ford transit 2.5 di's, the 'smiley face' ones, my '95-'99, have an 11mm head, thats what I used. Common as muck and cheap as chips!


I wish they were here!
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jabcok20 on June 04, 2010, 07:13:57 pm
Hello. i have some problem's with my m-tdi engine.
i have engine from arosa 1.7 sdi with injecitons from 110Km tdi.
my pump is from fiat croma 11mm and afn camplate.
timing is from 1.9td dualspring,
and my problem is to find a way to regulate the timing?
did something wrong with gov?
i have gov from corma and do i must take go from transit because i have gov sleeve from this engine. this sleeve is much longer and it have 23,7mm  , sleeve from 1.9td and fiat croma have 20,7.

The engine with gearbox 4t 020 from golf mk3 td  takes something about 5,5 litres/100km .
does it good result?
i modified the Principal lever with easier way and i think it work perfekt.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on June 04, 2010, 11:56:57 pm
Are you trying to figure out how to increase timing advance as rpms or load increase?  If so I might be able to help.  Can you be more clear on what you are wanting to achieve?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jabcok20 on June 05, 2010, 03:25:22 am
how to increase timing advance as rpms or load increase
yes my problem is this. I have gov with 2 springs and i think i must put 1 spring form maybe transit...
what do you think? i think gov gives too much of oil injection and i hear early inject,  then when i change pressure(for liminate early inject ) car in the morning (when i start engine it ) smokes white and interrupts.
sory for my english:]
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on June 05, 2010, 07:13:54 pm
When you say "I have gov with 2 springs", are you talking about "Timing is from 1.9td dual spring?"  I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.  Also, is there another electronic solenoid on the side of your pump that looks the same as the stop solenoid?

Do you know how to adjust the internal pressure in the pump.  I can help but this thread might not be the best place to discuss this.  You can pm me or start a thread in the tdi section and I can help you there. 
 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jabcok20 on June 06, 2010, 06:31:31 pm
When you say "I have gov with 2 springs", are you talking about "Timing is from 1.9td dual spring?"  I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.  Also, is there another electronic solenoid on the side of your pump that looks the same as the stop solenoid?

no timing springs from 1.9td dual spring and electronic solenoid is cut of with grinder:]
and gov from upper side of pump;) is with 2 springs and a transit have 1 long spring ...
now i take dose up and did gentler gov.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on June 06, 2010, 07:18:08 pm
PM sent
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on June 21, 2010, 02:33:39 pm
Selenoid is cut off? Did you drill the channel on the back of the governor axis to allow timing to move with load?? If not.. this is a problem. Also, 1.9td regulator wont work with 11mm pump!!

I have been running my m-tdi pump/car for a long time now with absolutly NO PROBLEM.( 30 000km) The winter starting is MUCH better than my old 1.9td car.
As for the economy, I made 4.63l/100km (60.7mpg or 50USmpg) at 120km/h lots of higway and some visiting (calculated from a trip to Boston with 5 people in car) last spring. In a mix of highway/town it is around 5l/100km with hard acceleration. Timing at .42'' (1.05mm). I also have NO boost pin at all.

I have a VNT17Va at 20psi and some smoke close to the end but the clutch slip in high gear anyway and EGT climbs to 1300F-1400F fast when smoke occur.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on June 23, 2010, 09:32:41 am
It's nice to see you posting again Hey.  Your input is always greatly appreciated!  Because of your info I am also enjoying my injection pump.  I am running 1.9td regulator with 11mm head with no problems though.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: turbo greese on September 01, 2010, 04:05:51 am
does the AAZ IP bolt right onto an ALH?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: golftd412000 on September 01, 2010, 04:34:50 am
if you want a m-tdi pump contact hey or namedtintin in vwquébec or me in france
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: UAofE on September 05, 2010, 10:31:27 am
Can anyone point me to information on a 5-cylinder Audi distributor pump (mIDI)?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: ChopSauce on September 06, 2010, 07:32:02 am
Can anyone point me to information on a 5-cylinder Audi distributor pump (mIDI)?

Out of curiosity : can't one just fit the complete head with springs and camplate into any mTDI pump ?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jabcok20 on October 31, 2010, 08:17:10 pm
hey and 410
i have timing spring from 1.9td and i give there someting about 1,0 mm more washer.
the engine is going 120km/h on 3 gear so this is something about 5500 rpm ( CHD gearbox).
i have lda , pin is much more agressive. and i ave a little bit of too early injection on low rpm.
regulation valve ( that thing wchich we use to set pressure in the pump)   have big mouth and soft spring.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on October 31, 2010, 10:11:22 pm
Jabcok20, pm sent.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jabcok20 on December 20, 2010, 10:36:56 am
Also, 1.9td regulator wont work with 11mm pump!!

 
Tell me why?
Did the pressure in the pump is too low in low rpms?
I have 1.9td regulator and at cold engine i have wite smoke and i looks like pressure was to low. when engine was warm the smoke disappear.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on December 20, 2010, 12:26:46 pm
That's what I'd do for a 5-cyl mTDI.  I've never taken apart a 5 cyl pump, but I imagine that you'd also need to use the roller cage and rollers (are there 5 rollers?).  That might cause some added complication as the electronic pumps don't have the cutout in the roller cage to accommodate the governor.  Some machine work there would likely be in order.

only 3 rollers in a 5 cyl Audi pump..
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on December 20, 2010, 12:27:14 pm
Also, 1.9td regulator wont work with 11mm pump!!

 
Tell me why?
Did the pressure in the pump is too low in low rpms?
I have 1.9td regulator and at cold engine i have wite smoke and i looks like pressure was to low. when engine was warm the smoke disappear.

where do 1.7 tdi engines come from?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on December 20, 2010, 12:30:51 pm
Also, 1.9td regulator wont work with 11mm pump!!

 
Tell me why?
Did the pressure in the pump is too low in low rpms?
I have 1.9td regulator and at cold engine i have wite smoke and i looks like pressure was to low. when engine was warm the smoke disappear.
I am using 1.9td regulator and advance pistons with stock shims with 11mm pump and am quite happy with it.  I wish I hadn't deleted the cold start lever though. 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: snakemaster on December 27, 2010, 07:11:46 pm
some pics of pump stuff  top 5 cyl 2.4 idi  , middle 4 cyl 1.9 , and bottom 5 cyl 2.5 tdi  , due to the gov the 5 cyl idi only has 3 rollers you can see where thay sit with the rust ,this pump had bio diesel in it and was rusty and gumed up with waxy crap ,and so was the 4 cyl 1.9 to
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/snakemaster1/100_6038.jpg)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/snakemaster1/100_6031.jpg)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: jabcok20 on January 08, 2011, 07:37:01 pm
by this day i think 1.9td regultor won;t work with 11mm. I must say that i think pressure in the pump is to low and car have white smoke on cold engine.
410 have that regulator and he is happy, but i try everything and white smoke don;t dissapear( this is a lot of smoke). But something about 3,5 bar white smoke is weakness and i put one pad into regulator, there is ok but timing don;t go to the end of regulator. rpm' goes something about 500 lower than before but engine works queitly.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Hey on May 04, 2012, 06:50:57 pm
Just an update. I am still running the same car with the same pump.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on May 04, 2012, 07:28:54 pm
Nice to see you still check the site Hey.  My pump is still going strong too with over 40,000km on it.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: DA-BRT on May 05, 2012, 04:16:03 am
I build a 2.5 TDI in my Audi 100 from 1977 and I also had the issue with the rollers and I solved it like this:

(http://zwalve.eu/d/6776-2/CIMG3751.JPG)

(http://zwalve.eu/d/6779-2/CIMG3752.JPG)
Original 2.5TDI pump

(http://zwalve.eu/d/6782-2/CIMG3753.JPG[[img]Original 2.0D pump[img]http://zwalve.eu/d/6785-2/CIMG3755.JPG)
Comparison between the roller houses

(http://zwalve.eu/d/6788-2/CIMG3946.JPG)
(http://zwalve.eu/d/6791-2/CIMG3947.JPG)
New one with 4 rollers instead of 3.

(http://zwalve.eu/d/6797-2/CIMG3950.JPG)
New pumphouse.

I've been driving for a good 10.000km with this pump and a friend of mine is driving a NK offroad car (paris dakar type of vehicle) and we also build in a 2.5 R5 TDI engine with the same pump. With DSS ultime nozzles a VNT22 he has got more than 300HP and almost 650Nm on all 4 the wheels. When I get the dyno sheet I will post it.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on October 31, 2012, 09:38:06 pm
I just picked up an aaz pump with an adjustable pulley thinking that it might have a 20mm shaft.  Sadly it is only a 17mm shaft. 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: DA-BRT on November 01, 2012, 02:55:36 am
All VAG indirect engines have a 17mm main shaft. There are other alternatives with almost our pump housing and 20mm axle.

I tried once to enlarge a 17mm pump to 20mm main shaft, but there is a small opening to pressurize the seal on the axle and you get into this hole when creating the bigger hole.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 8v-of-fury on November 01, 2012, 06:45:17 pm
All VAG indirect engines have a 17mm main shaft. There are other alternatives with almost our pump housing and 20mm axle.

I tried once to enlarge a 17mm pump to 20mm main shaft, but there is a small opening to pressurize the seal on the axle and you get into this hole when creating the bigger hole.

There has been mention of IDI pumps with 20mm shafts.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: DA-BRT on November 02, 2012, 01:57:06 am
Indeed, but not from VAG.

I've been working over 12 years on these VE / VP pumps and none of the VAG (VW / Audi / Seat / Skoda) IDI pumps had a 20mm axle. Yes, they have at Ford, PSA (Peugeot, Citroen) and most likely some others.

So please show me a pump that has got one, I would be very interested. ;)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 8v-of-fury on November 04, 2012, 01:41:08 am
Indeed, but not from VAG.

I've been working over 12 years on these VE / VP pumps and none of the VAG (VW / Audi / Seat / Skoda) IDI pumps had a 20mm axle. Yes, they have at Ford, PSA (Peugeot, Citroen) and most likely some others.

So please show me a pump that has got one, I would be very interested. ;)

VW 1.9 AAZ sold in Canada had a 20mm pump shaft apparently.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: rallydiesel on November 04, 2012, 01:26:49 am
Not the ones I have seen.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 410 on November 04, 2012, 10:25:06 pm
At the beginning of this thread, there is a mention of late aaz pumps that might have a 20mm shaft but I have never seen one or heard of someone who has.  I had high hopes when I found an aaz pump with the big snout and adjustable sprocket but to no avail.  17mm
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on November 04, 2012, 10:45:01 pm
All the AAZ pumps I've seen have been 17mm.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Ziptar on February 17, 2013, 09:53:57 am
Should I remove the AAZ 20 MM shaft reference?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on March 19, 2013, 12:43:03 pm
Should I remove the AAZ 20 MM shaft reference?

Yes, there is no 20mm shaft for AAZ pump.

There's some european IDI pump that have an 20mm shaft but they are not very popular.

There is no problem with a 17mm main shaft to build an M-TDI pump if you drive it decently, however I've seen many 17mm pump that the hub have slipped on the shaft when you try to push the RPM limit maxed with too much fueling, in this case, a 20mm shaft is requiered, but still it can slip at the extreme.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 8v-of-fury on March 19, 2013, 01:04:04 pm
I've seen many 17mm pump that the hub have slipped on the shaft when you try to push the RPM limit maxed with too much fueling, in this case, a 20mm shaft is required, but still it can slip at the extreme.

Yeah.. that whole pressed fit idea didn't really seem to good to me. I went with the original AHU pulley on the 20mm shaft Rover pump.. So it is keyed and will not slip.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on March 19, 2013, 04:53:44 pm
A jig and a keyway broach would make short work of adding a keyway to the hub.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tintin on March 20, 2013, 12:21:59 pm
A jig and a keyway broach would make short work of adding a keyway to the hub.


Of course...

Are you Libbybapa?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: 8v-of-fury on March 20, 2013, 01:15:05 pm
Yes that is the same Andrew ;)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on March 19, 2015, 11:29:50 pm
Some info for folks using Rover pumps...

The factory timing for the 200 TDI and 300 TDI without EGR is 1.54mm
The factory timing for the 300 TDI WITH EGR is 1.40 mm

I have a 300 TDI EGR pump and my pulse adapter / experimentation have let me to about 1.43mm.  Since generally speaking the factory timing is slightly retarded for emissions reasons I'd say that these timing figures are probably pretty spot on.  I've had a good running engine between 1.37-1.45 before settling where I am now.

So there you have it, the dial gauge settings you'll want to start with if you're using a Rover pump on your TDI are pretty much the same as they are on the actual Rover engine these pumps came from. :)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on March 27, 2015, 07:19:28 pm
I looked through this FAQ and did not see a specific list of the custom bits necessary to use the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump on an AHU and an ALH.  I figured I'd add that list.

AHU:
The snout hole in the pump mounting bracket needs to be enlarged for the larger snout of the LR pump.

Because the LR pump does not have slotted mounting holes, you need to make some accommodation for timing adjustment.  My preference is to use the ALH sprocket and hub.  If you use the ALH sprocket and hub then you either need to use slightly sprocket to hub bolts that are slightly shorter than the stock ALH bolts or trim the pump case slightly where the timing pin goes.  If you use the stock ALH sprocket to hub bolts (which are single-use) without clearancing the pump case they will hit.  Another option is to file the pump mounting holes so they are slots.  If you make the pump mounting holes into slots, you can use the AHU sprocket. 
 
The plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt by the injection lines needs to be changed.  I've used the 1.6 plate which requires 2 additional holes to be drilled for mounting to the distributor head.

The LR delivery valves are longer.  The two options are to either swap the delivery valves for short ones or bend the metal lines to fit the LR delivery valves.  I've used TDI delivery valves and 1.6 delivery valves and either work fine and will fit the stock ALH injection lines.  I have also bent the metal fuel lines and have not had any issues after thousands of miles of use.  The downside to swapping valves is the fact that you need to source the valves and/or take them from a working pump destroying its value.  The downside to bending the lines is that if you ever have to replace a line you will need to bend that one as well.

ALH:

The LR pump snout is the correct diameter to fit the ALH pump mounting bracket.  The ALH pump mounting holes are threaded to accept the m8 bolts that fit through from the sprocket side.  The LR holes are not threaded and are too large to tap to the m8 size.  I tapped them to m10 and got the correct length m10 bolts which just barely fit through the bracket. 

The other necessary changes are the same as written in the AHU section.  The delivery valve length issue and the plate for the 4th pump mounting bolt need to be addressed. 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: theman53 on March 27, 2015, 09:59:58 pm
I looked through this FAQ and did not see a specific list of the custom bits necessary to use the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump on an AHU and an ALH.  I figured I'd add that list.

AHU:
The snout hole in the pump mounting bracket needs to be enlarged for the larger snout of the LR pump.

Because the LR pump does not have slotted mounting holes, you need to make some accommodation for timing adjustment.  My preference is to use the ALH sprocket and hub.  If you use the ALH sprocket and hub then you either need to use slightly sprocket to hub bolts that are slightly shorter than the stock ALH bolts or trim the pump case slightly where the timing pin goes.  If you use the stock ALH sprocket to hub bolts (which are single-use) without clearancing the pump case they will hit.  Another option is to file the pump mounting holes so they are slots.  If you make the pump mounting holes into slots, you can use the AHU sprocket. 
 
The plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt by the injection lines needs to be changed.  I've used the 1.6 plate which requires 2 additional holes to be drilled for mounting to the distributor head.

The LR delivery valves are longer.  The two options are to either swap the delivery valves for short ones or bend the metal lines to fit the LR delivery valves.  I've used TDI delivery valves and 1.6 delivery valves and either work fine and will fit the stock ALH injection lines.  I have also bent the metal fuel lines and have not had any issues after thousands of miles of use.  The downside to swapping valves is the fact that you need to source the valves and/or take them from a working pump destroying its value.  The downside to bending the lines is that if you ever have to replace a line you will need to bend that one as well.

ALH:

The LR pump snout is the correct diameter to fit the ALH pump mounting bracket.  The ALH pump mounting holes are threaded to accept the m8 bolts that fit through from the sprocket side.  The LR holes are not threaded and are too large to tap to the m8 size.  I tapped them to m10 and got the correct length m10 bolts which just barely fit through the bracket. 

The other necessary changes are the same as written in the AHU section.  The delivery valve length issue and the plate for the 4th pump mounting bolt need to be addressed. 

I like that info as I am getting closer to getting the mtdi ready. You don't have a pic of the 4th hole that needs drilled do you?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on March 27, 2015, 11:29:55 pm
On mine, I reused some bits I had around the house for the accelerator cable and the 4th mounting bolt.  I used part of the TDI mounting plate and had it welded on to the Rover mounting plate. 

Since my 300TDI pump has set screws for the 'whatever the hell it is' accelerator-connected-unknown-function lever on the side of the pump, I couldn't use the 1.6 accelerator cable bracket.  Instead I nipped a triangle out of the 1.6 bracket, bent it on a 90 degree angle and then drilled some holes through the Rover bracket and the 1.6 bracket and attached the 1.6 bracket with machine bolts.  I also had a chunk of metal welded in place to strengthen the cut 1.6 bracket.  This pic shows the 1.6 bracket before welding:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8695/16763802410_04d0a8518f_z.jpg)

Finally to connect the accelerator lever to the pump, I made up a metal connector that replaces the VW plastic one, since I still had the 'whatever the hell it is' lever on my pump at the time which interfered with the VW style accelerator cable connection.  This is just a piece of galvanized steel (actually a chunk of an old electrical box) that I cut a keyhole in on the bottom and put the swaged VW cable end in to after breaking off the plastic part.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8689/16950319241_81a38a5555_z.jpg)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on March 27, 2015, 11:35:39 pm
Probably also worth mentioning... I removed the internal part of the 'whatever the hell it is' lever when I did my gov mod the other day.  It didn't really seem to have a function and it's damn hard to get the pump back together with it in place.  Doesn't seem to have caused any issues and I REALLY can't figure out what it's supposed to do after seeing how it went together internally. 

It essentially made a veeeeerrrryyyy tiny difference in the ultimate maximum 'full fuel' position of the fuel control lever, but the way the linkage was set up it should never actually come in to play, at least on my pump, since the only time the lever would be in its 'doing something' position would be when the accelerator lever was at idle, which of course means the governor is already pushing the fuel control lever back meaning there's not really any way the fuel control lever could be touching its arm.  Very weird.

Oh and also worth mentioning, I had a chat with Göran Lindgren (Dieselmeken) about the Rover 300TDI pump that I'm using (0 460 414 099).  He confirmed that it should have no trouble supporting 200+ HP with just the usual minor adjustments (fuel screw / LDA / governor).  Also confirmed the advance system on that pump is adequate for higher RPM use.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on March 28, 2015, 12:40:40 am
That extra lever reduces the max fuel slightly, but only at idle...  The only plausible explanation I've heard for it, I believe you came up with.  It may reduce the initial puff of startup smoke.  I do not believe that it will affect the normal operation at all.

As far as the plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt, here's a pic of the rover plate.

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Plate%20Modification_zpsss51pfai.jpg)

The 4th pump mounting bolt is approximately in the location of the green circle.  I have a rover plate here and in looking at it more I believe that one could cut it at the blue line, flip it over and place it so the hole that the red arrow is pointing at would be in the correct location.  Cut, flipped and rotated it would be oriented like this:

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Chopped%20and%20Rotated_zpskm5c0evw.jpg)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on March 28, 2015, 12:46:52 pm
Oh and also worth mentioning, I had a chat with Göran Lindgren (Dieselmeken) about the Rover 300TDI pump that I'm using (0 460 414 099).  He confirmed that it should have no trouble supporting 200+ HP with just the usual minor adjustments (fuel screw / LDA / governor).  Also confirmed the advance system on that pump is adequate for higher RPM use.

Thanks for the info.  On a similar note I thought that I would mention the performance mods for the LR pump for high power applications.  There are only three potential changes I would make to the internals of the pump for the extreme build. 

Governor mod:  The LR pump is governed to 4300 or so rpms in stock form.  That means that it starts cutting fuel quite a few rpms before 4300.  While I've been happy without doing the governor mod (I rarely push my TDIs to 4,000 or above) I can see how many high-performance builds would desire the easy power of higher rpms.

Camplate swap:  The LR camplate is fairly mild.  The total max fuel per stroke is determined by (plunger radius^2) x pi x camplate lift.  Increasing the camplate lift is one of the ways to increase potential max fuel.   The LR pump has higher fueling potential than the 10mm eTDI pumps even with the mildish camplate, but a swap to a 4BTA camplate would give a significant increase to the max fuel potential.  Bear in mind that any modification that increasing the max fuel potential will shorten the injection event for smaller quantities of fuel making the engine more clattery and so, replacing the camplate with a higher lift one may not be desirable unless that added max fuel potential will be utilized.

Plunger swap:  For the extreme build, a swap to a 12mm plunger/head assembly may be desired.  10mm plunger has an area of 78.5mm^2.  11mm plunger has an area of 95mm^2.  12mm plunger has an area of 113mm^2.  As you can see there is a greater difference in fueling from a swap from 11mm to 12mm than there is from a swap from 10mm to 11mm.  Bear in mind that in the same way that a higher lift camplate will shorten the injection event, so will a plunger diameter increase.  You should also NOT increase the plunger size to 12mm without increasing the injector nozzles to be larger than stock.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on March 28, 2015, 11:31:42 pm
The governor mod made a dramatic improvement for me.  I noticed the difference right away above 3500 RPM.  I have a bigger cam in mine too so the gov mod is basically required since the combination of cam + turbo means my engine only really starts to come out to play at 2500ish RPM, so a 3500 RPM fuel reduction and a 4300 RPM fuel cutoff is less than ideal.  But with a stock cam and stock turbo this would be less important.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: theman53 on March 28, 2015, 11:59:47 pm
Oh and also worth mentioning, I had a chat with Göran Lindgren (Dieselmeken) about the Rover 300TDI pump that I'm using (0 460 414 099).  He confirmed that it should have no trouble supporting 200+ HP with just the usual minor adjustments (fuel screw / LDA / governor).  Also confirmed the advance system on that pump is adequate for higher RPM use.

Thanks for the info.  On a similar note I thought that I would mention the performance mods for the LR pump for high power applications.  There are only three potential changes I would make to the internals of the pump for the extreme build. 

Governor mod:  The LR pump is governed to 4300 or so rpms in stock form.  That means that it starts cutting fuel quite a few rpms before 4300.  While I've been happy without doing the governor mod (I rarely push my TDIs to 4,000 or above) I can see how many high-performance builds would desire the easy power of higher rpms.

Camplate swap:  The LR camplate is fairly mild.  The total max fuel per stroke is determined by (plunger radius^2) x pi x camplate lift.  Increasing the camplate lift is one of the ways to increase potential max fuel.   The LR pump has higher fueling potential than the 10mm eTDI pumps even with the mildish camplate, but a swap to a 4BTA camplate would give a significant increase to the max fuel potential.  Bear in mind that any modification that increasing the max fuel potential will shorten the injection event for smaller quantities of fuel making the engine more clattery and so, replacing the camplate with a higher lift one may not be desirable unless that added max fuel potential will be utilized.

Plunger swap:  For the extreme build, a swap to a 12mm plunger/head assembly may be desired.  10mm plunger has an area of 78.5mm^2.  11mm plunger has an area of 95mm^2.  12mm plunger has an area of 113mm^2.  As you can see there is a greater difference in fueling from a swap from 11mm to 12mm than there is from a swap from 10mm to 11mm.  Bear in mind that in the same way that a higher lift camplate will shorten the injection event, so will a plunger diameter increase.  You should also NOT increase the plunger size to 12mm without increasing the injector nozzles to be larger than stock.

From a lot of what I have read you want a DE143 camplate for the 11mm. I don't know that is true but from all the reading I have done for performance that is what I read was the best for fueling. Does anyone know if that is true or is another even better?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on March 29, 2015, 01:24:36 am
Remember it's not just about cramming as much fuel as possible, it's also about having an engine that's decent to live with. At the moment I have no complaints about the stock Rover stuff and I'm pretty sure I've got one of the faster AHUs out there...
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: theman53 on March 29, 2015, 09:54:50 am
The DE 143 is off of the alh auto trans, so I dont' think it would be too bad, I have ridden in a couple different rover pumped and they seemed fine too.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on March 29, 2015, 10:17:45 am
I have not pulled apart an auto trans ALH pump.  Considering the auto trans pump has an 11mm plunger and the displacement is 1.9L on an engine that stock develops 25% less power than the stock LR 300TDI, I would expect the camplate from the ALH auto pump to be milder than the one from the Rover pump.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: theman53 on March 29, 2015, 04:43:24 pm
http://www.nosmokenopoke.com/forum/showthread.php?10578-Bosch-VP37-11mm-pump-(038-130-107J-and-0460-414-987)

Watch out on the link...sent me a couple different places before it went where it said it should. When you get there look at reply 7. Libby I have no clue as to what is better and is why I am hoping you know. I have just read some stuff like that link and some stuff that Tintin had on the TDI club saying they liked the DE143, but didn't really say why. I wish there was a definitive list of parts so we could know what played well together if we are playing around.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on April 17, 2015, 01:29:46 pm
Probably also worth mentioning... I removed the internal part of the 'whatever the hell it is' lever when I did my gov mod the other day.  It didn't really seem to have a function and it's damn hard to get the pump back together with it in place.  Doesn't seem to have caused any issues and I REALLY can't figure out what it's supposed to do after seeing how it went together internally. 

It essentially made a veeeeerrrryyyy tiny difference in the ultimate maximum 'full fuel' position of the fuel control lever, but the way the linkage was set up it should never actually come in to play, at least on my pump, since the only time the lever would be in its 'doing something' position would be when the accelerator lever was at idle, which of course means the governor is already pushing the fuel control lever back meaning there's not really any way the fuel control lever could be touching its arm.  Very weird.

That extra lever reduces the max fuel slightly, but only at idle...  The only plausible explanation I've heard for it, I believe you came up with.  It may reduce the initial puff of startup smoke.  I do not believe that it will affect the normal operation at all.

Now that I've had that little lever removed for a while, I can say there's a definite increase in startup smoke with my car.  She puts out a pretty substantial puff at startup, which she didn't do previously with that lever in place.  I'm sticking with this theory...
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tylenol on June 08, 2015, 11:14:11 pm
I see all the gov mods being done going to the internals of the pump but is this really nessasery if you stiffen the springs internally one way or another are you not just moving the governed speed up the rpm band which makes the fuel pump cutting back the fuel also move up the rpm band? Example if it were set to 4300 rpms fuel starts cutting back at 3500 let's say for sake of argument now we do the gov mod internally and we now have a max rpm of 5000 and fuel doesn't cut back till 4200 rpms! Is this correct or am I missing something?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on June 09, 2015, 11:08:35 am
I see all the gov mods being done going to the internals of the pump but is this really nessasery if you stiffen the springs internally one way or another are you not just moving the governed speed up the rpm band which makes the fuel pump cutting back the fuel also move up the rpm band? Example if it were set to 4300 rpms fuel starts cutting back at 3500 let's say for sake of argument now we do the gov mod internally and we now have a max rpm of 5000 and fuel doesn't cut back till 4200 rpms! Is this correct or am I missing something?

That's exactly what the point of the governor mod is - to move the governor cutoff range further up the RPM band.  My current pump will happily fuel all the way up to 5500 or so, I've seen 5750 on some of my logs right before I shifted.

Completely disabling the governor doesn't really work - the pump design needs to have some spring left in the main spring to prevent breaking stuff for instance.  The pump itself also has a redline - on a 1.6 with a 9mm plunger they start skipping around 6500.  Larger plungers will increase this effect, reducing usable RPM range.  The VE pump has a significant technical limit on the max RPM it can run.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tylenol on June 09, 2015, 07:37:04 pm
Oh I understand disabling it would not be wise it holds rpms constant with throttle position without it your foot would never quit moving to keep the same speed! But couldn't you just adjust the max throtle adjustment on the outside to get the same results more spring tension is the key to this doesn't matter how you get it by shim or by movement? Or do different VE pumps offer more movenent then others because on mine judging by movenent of corse I should be able to safely hit 7000 rpm without going into my pump? Then if your worried about no governor just invest in a heartz speed switch like ive got from Murphy the SS300-12 hook to your w pole on the alternator set for your rpm and it cuts fuel till dropped below then powered back on! Wouldn't this be better then altering a good design that works well already?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on June 11, 2015, 10:12:52 pm
That's not quite how things work. The main spring is always fully extended as it has a fair amount of preload on it. The intermediate spring is what helps maintain a set speed. Yes, adjusting the high speed stop on the pump does have some impact but only a few hundred RPM, adding more preload can boost it up by 1000 RPM.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: zukgod1 on June 11, 2015, 10:43:49 pm
I miss working on these simple engines. I threw away probably 3 engines when I moved last year. Also found probably 10 pumps. Some NA and a couple turbo pumps. Kept the pumps.

I'm working on a ALH swap in a mk2 I picked up a couple years ago.

My phone cut off the rest of the post.

I wad looking into an mTdi pump for the ALH swap but by the time I buy the core then have it built I'm money ahead using the ECM. Can do a custom tune etc and use all OE parts

Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tylenol on June 11, 2015, 11:31:58 pm
So with my pump right now I am governed at 4200 rpm's I can pretty much feel the fuel cutting back at about 3500rpms! Without the internal gov mod the most I could do or get it about 5000 rpms and my fuel shouldn't start cutting back until about 4200rpms correct? I would have thought an extra 11/2 would give more then 800rpms! Maybe I should just do the gov mod I guess!
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on June 12, 2015, 03:00:08 am
There's a reason it's a sticky... ;-)

My Rover pump (which uses the same style of governor as the VW pump) will happily spin my TDI up to 5700 pulling strong now that it's shimmed. Prior to that you could hold the pedal to the floor and not get past 4500.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Tylenol on June 12, 2015, 08:37:05 am
Maybe I should have mentioned my pump before im also using the rover pump 300tdi lol thanks for the input I'll definetly be doing the mod I want 5000 to be my red line and of course want it to pull all the way! Have you heard of anyone using the hertz speed switch to control the redline or shutoff, rpms or fuel demand shouldn't affect the fuel shutoff solenoid should it only reason I ask is I've read a few cummins people talk about modified pumps that run away or keep going regardless of the fuel shut off?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: SR Heer on October 31, 2015, 11:37:42 am
I have a Rover pump - is it a 200 or 300?
Here are the numbers on side - what all do they indicate?
I was told it has an 11mm fuel distributor head, does this make it a 200?
It does have a potentiometer on top of accelerator lever shaft.
Is there any way I can tell if this one was designed to run with EGR - so I can adj. expected static timing correctly?
Besides doing the governor mod would there be any other adjustments or mods needed for it to function well for street driving?

0 460 414 099
R 509-1
ERR 4046
011 662        156698
20620

Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: vanbcguy on October 31, 2015, 09:14:22 pm
If it has the potentiometer on top it is an EGR pump. Yes, it has an 11mm head. I'm 99% sure that's a 300TDI pump, ERR4046 I believe is the Land Rover part number for the 300TDI pump.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: rotaecho on October 27, 2016, 12:53:54 am
I've got a mTDI 12mm 4BT pump built for a Vanagon going in my Westy.

However, I'm curious what timing would be ideal for these 12mm 4BT pumps? I was told 1.05 which I believe will work, but all my research says this is for "performance pumps".

But what exactly makes one a "performance" pump?

Shooting for better mpg's than anything else. I have 764 nozzels and a K14 wastegate turbo on it.

Just a slight better clearity with how the timing range works with these mTDI 12mm 4BT pumps on an AHU setup.

Thanks!
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on October 27, 2016, 03:00:02 pm
1.05mm is the timing setting for an IDI 1.6TD injection pump.  That setting doesn't apply to other makes/models of pumps.  I would contact Karl and find out what timing setting he recommends for his pump.  There is no way for anyone else to know what internal parts were used and consequently what timing setting to recommend.  Your injector pop pressure will also affect the timing.  The best way to set the timing is with a pulse adapter and strobe.  I built quite a few mTDI pumps using 4BTA base pumps and the optimum timing ranged from 0.90 to 1.55mm.  It is likely I have more experience with those particular pumps than any other frequent poster on this forum and I feel it would be silly of me to guess at a recommendation.  Ask Karl. 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: ORCoaster on October 27, 2016, 03:39:22 pm
Libby,  I agree with you that the 1.05 mark is for the 1.6 IDI.  And that the term performance likely meant fast and not cleaner.  The 1.05 mark is about the middle of the range you have experience so I would venture a guess that he could start there and figure his MPG for a few tanks then bump it one way or the other and see what he gets.  That is what most of us tuning for best mileage do as a course of business. 

But I would still do as you recommend to go ask the man for a setting.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on October 27, 2016, 04:29:25 pm
1.05mm is nearer the retarded limit than the midpoint.  Midway between 0.90mm and 1.55mm is 1.225 mm. 
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Sprinter4x4 on November 08, 2016, 01:46:28 pm
1.05mm is nearer the retarded limit than the midpoint.  Midway between 0.90mm and 1.55mm is 1.225 mm.

Timing depends a lot of what camplate is used and other internal specs. 1.05 seems to work best for the pumps I build. For years I used more aggressive timing specs and the engines sounded noisy, 'Dodge truck' like. Then I started dialing back the timing and now they sound like an eTDI and retain that quiet across the rpm range while having good EGT readings and power.
Karl
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on November 08, 2016, 07:34:12 pm
I totally understand Karl.  I said a couple times that it would depend on the components used and that no one would know what timing spec to recommend for one of your pumps better than you would.  I was only stating that having built quite a few mTDI pumps from Cummins 4BTA base pumps, I found that depending on what was used internally the timing that I would consider optimal ranged from 0.9 to 1.55mm and that 1.225 was the midway point of that HUGE range.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on April 25, 2019, 06:20:21 am
i just wanted to add some pumps to the list of parts numbers worth searching for. most off them are euro cars though

0 460 424 138 vw LT 2.8 12mm
0 460 414 156 peugeot 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 424 164 Fiat Ducato 2.8 tdi 12mm
0 460 414 128 Fiat Ducato 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 193 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 191 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm the one im curently using
0 460 414 099 Land Rover 300 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 098 Land Rover 200 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 054 Iveco Daily 2.5 DI 11mm

GL with the hunt
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Dino on June 11, 2019, 12:45:51 pm
Hello.
I'm new. I'd like to build a mechanical pump. Unfortunately I don't know how a pump works.
I read the F.A.Q. and some post, some pictures are missing and some links are broken.
I can't explain and understand very well because the language.
Are there news regarding the best donor pump?
Used pumps to be rebuilt aren't  cheap at all so I'm not going to buy more than one.
It's an old project, I havent' got any diesel VW at the moment. Diesel cars aren't allowed to run everywhere because pollution,that's the main problem.
Generally used pumps are sold apart so I could find an used engine without the electronic pump to be used as donor or I could need a pump pulley for a mechanical one because the 20mm shaft.
What would be the best combo?
Thank you very much for your attention.
I think you've already seen those pumps documents.

dbwllc.net/app/uploads/2014/09/AAZ_Injection_Pump_Manual_Transmission.pdf

dbwllc.net/app/uploads/2014/09/Manual_Pump_Parts.pdf

dbwllc.net/app/uploads/2014/09/Automatic_Injection_pump_038_130_107_J.pdf

I thought that they could be useful to find a mechanical pump with the same camplate to fit on the engine but it wassn't so.
I found a catalogue too.

scribd.com/doc/93724322/BOSCH-CATALOGO-BOMBAS-VE-2009-2010

I'd like standard parts to fit without any working. I know,I asked too much and new Bosch spare parts can be very expensive.
I found thatt too, I don't understand what it is. I hope it can be useful anyway.

lambda-automotive.es/files/cursos/iny_diesel1/videos/calado.pdf

P.S. I've just discovered that external link aren't allowed. Sorry. Tell me if I must delete them.



Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Dino on June 12, 2019, 01:52:03 pm
Hello.
I'll try to share what I know about some injection pump.

Hi, where I live theres several vans and cars running factory m-tdi setup, Ive stripped a few and the di camplate seems very similar to the vw, can I use the gov and principle levers from one of these pumps instead of modding my own? They seem to be pre modified although I havent made a gabarit to check the principle lever travel heres a pic of the governor levers. All the factory m-tdi governor levers I've seen dont seem to use an intermediate spring in the assembly?
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv66/del635/dturbo%20pump/P2150002.jpg)[/img]

Quote from: dts67

vw m-tdis ? you got more info on this .
 that governor lever on the left lookes like a transit di one
i have done my control lever in a difrant way , but serves the same movment to the control spool

@snakemaster- No, not vws, so far rover 2.0d and transit I've stripped but seen others. The lever is from a rover but the transits looks the same.
@hey- I'm near sure it is, I'll check tomorrow. I'm trying to get a di camplate working in an idi engine (1.9 psa xud), I've read nearly all your 'english' posts and know roughly what to do, you mentioned setting the break point of the injectors to match the camplate, thats no problem but do I then need pre-injection and 2 spring injectors? I've had the car running with an afn di camplate in the pump but the principle lever travel is to short and the engine is LOUD with injectors @175 bar :lol:

I looked for all those pumps but I wasn't very lucky.
You can find Ford Transit injection pumps but they aren't cheap. They're used to replace the lucas EPIC pumps.
I don't know what cars the other pumps are from.
I think Austin-Rover.
If I'm not wrong somebody fit a pump from a car by that brand.It takes to add a spacer to fit on a VW engine.
Probably the pump was from a Maestro-Montego.
There are other Rover DI engines made later but pumps are L and not R, they are from Rover SDI.
I know that engines are by Perkins, I don't what are the differences.
Industrial engine by Perkins are called Prima, probably is the same engine of Maestro-Montego .
Perkins marine engine are sold by Volvo as Penta.
Does anybody know if there a suitable pump and its Bosch number?
Does anybody know the L pumps performance and setting?
Can it be a good idea to use one as a donor pump?
What parts are suitable both for a L and R pump?
I think the body isn't suitable because timing advance is on the opposite side.
Waht else? the camplate?
The rest is universal or not?
Thank you very much.
P.S. If you look for a Kia Carnival on U.K. ebay you must look for Kia Sedona.
That's why I never found one. Somewhere that car is called Sedona.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Dino on June 14, 2019, 01:28:12 pm
Hello.
I've some question about mechanical pump for DI.
What about Ducato pumps? Have they got the right pump housing and shaft to fit on standart sprocket and pulley?

For those which have the possibility of it, there exists in Europe several pump ' ' specific DI' ' which is a direct swap, some witch the good alignment of pulley and rev over 4200rpm and this, in 10,11 and 12mm head plunger, ex: peugeot boxer 2.5TDI, fiat ducato 2.5 (some fiat use a TDI 1Z came plate with a 11mm head), Kia 2.9L DOHC, VW transporter 2.8 TDI, etc...... some of this pumps are not proper aligment pulley, there exist a different hub pulley for proper aligment,  that can avoid machinage.


I remember something about some "hybrid" or "Franken "pumps.
DI pumps are from turbo Sofim engines used on vans and light trucks like Fiat Ducato,Peugeot Boxer,Citroen Jumper,Renault Master-Mascotte,Iveco Daily.
Hydraulic heads have 11 and 12mm plungers.
NA engines are all IDI.
Sofim engines were used on cars too but they were all IDI engines even if turbos.
If I'm not wrong somewhere there's a thread about a "Franken" pump composed by a Fiat Croma or Lancia Thema(2.5 turbo IDI Sofim engines) pump and a kia one.
Why?
Because can't the Kia pump fit without using another pulley and some parts machining?
Croma and Thema 2.5 pump housing is right?
If I'm not wrong Sofim engines were used on spanish Santanas 4WD, a Land Rover under license, polish Lublins and russian Uaz too.
I don't know if they are CDI or they use electronic pumps, I think somewhere is told about a Uaz pump for M-TDI.I don't remeber the code but on a catalogue was a Daily pump.
I saw just one old ducato pump but it wasn't right for VW sprocket and pulley.
That's why I have many doubts.
Thank you all for yuor help.
I don't know if there's a VW factory mechanical pump.
I rember to have seen on an industrial engines catalogue TDIs with electronic pumps and a NA engine with a mechanical pump. It was written DI.
I tried to find that engine again. I think it was used on Sthil forklift but I have no other infos.
Maybe the brochure was wrong and it was an IDI engine.
That's alla I know.
Sorry if there can be errors.
There are hydraulic heads with 10mm plunger on IDI engine too, some Themas for exemple or some NA Ducatos.
Are those heads good for  DI pumps building too?

Sorry,I was wrong about factory mechanical pump.
There's an industrial egine,its code is SD 1.9 436MC,with a mechanical pump but the compression ratio is to high to be a DI engine,it's an IDI engine.
Somewhere N/A IDI engines are callaed SDI, I think that those catalogues are wrong.
I can't find old threads and posts about Prima engines pumps.
I found the ones where those pumps are used for parts and the one where it's said about the spacer to fit them on VW engines but no pictures or other details.
I remember that somewhere it's written about Perkins Prima pumps that use the same TDI camplates.
Some Prima pumps codes:
Mark    Type    Part number               Applications                                                 Engine    
bosch    VE    0460414029 VE R 228    Leyland Sherpa 200 46 kw Rover Maestro 2.0 D 46 kw         Perkins Prima 65 Perkins Prima 65
bosch    VE    0460414030 VE R 229    Rover M., Montego 2.0 TD 60 kw        Perkins Prima 80 T     
bosch    VE    0460414041 VE R 266    Perkins 500 37 kw        500 , 504 – 2 LR     
bosch    VE    0460414053 VE R 290    Perkins        PRIMA 4000 NA     
bosch    VE    0460414092 VE R 275/2    Perkins Prima GR 500 29 kw        Gemini TCI D.I.     
bosch    VE    0460414093 VE R 462    Land Rover Defender 2.5TD 83 kw        Perkins Prima 80 T
Are there 2,5 liters Prima engine too?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Dino on June 26, 2019, 06:12:07 pm
Hello.
I decided to make a list with all TDI camplates but I haven't got the whole list of TDI injection pumps.
I'd like to use the list to find mechanical pumps with the same camplates.
We already know the camplate from the 11mm injection pump from automatic transmission cars.
0460414987    VE4/11E2075R712-2
That's the camplate: 2 466 110 143 or 2466110143 or DE143.
There are other eight pumps,I found the list at a shop on line,some pump diagrams are missing.
0460414989    VE4/11E2075R712-1
0460414990    VE4/11E2075R712
Those are electronic pumps,the next pumps are mechanical.
0460424219    VE4/12F1600R885 
I think it's froma a N/A engine.
Then the pumps with LDA.
0460424247    VE4/12F1800R918
0460424353    VE4/12F1800R918-1
0460424371    VE4/12F1800R918-2
The last two pumps are still to check because no diagrams avaiable.
0460424529    VE4/12F1150R1174
0460424533    VE4/12F1800R1182
Do you other 11mm pumps or different camplates?
We already know the cameplate saw in the diagram of the 0460404959    VE4/10E2075R700-1 pump.
2 466 110 110 or 2466110110 or DE110.
Other electronic pumps from SDI/TDI.
0460404961    VE4/10E2250R728-4
0460404964    VE4/10E2250R640-3
0460404966    VE4/10E2250R728
0460404977    VE4/10E2075R700
I read that there are many pumps with that camplate.
Do you know other TDI pumps?
I found two mechanical injection pumps with the same camplate.
0460414135 and 0460414165.
I found a TDI pump with a different camplate.
0460404971    VE4/10E2250R510-3
2 466 110 015 or 2466110015 or DE015.
I found two mechanical pump with tehe same camplate,they are from Sofim engines.
0460414091    VE4/11F1900R444
0460414110    VE4/11F1900R522-1
I saw an used pump from Audi 80TDI on sale,that's the code: 0460404995    VE4/10E2250R440-1
There is the same camplate.
I can't find pumps by part numbers unfortunately.
I read of another camplate from 10mm TDI pumps,DE056.
Who knows it?
2 466 110 056 or 2466110056?




Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: zehair on October 19, 2019, 03:02:00 pm
i just wanted to add some pumps to the list of parts numbers worth searching for. most off them are euro cars though

0 460 424 138 vw LT 2.8 12mm
0 460 414 156 peugeot 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 424 164 Fiat Ducato 2.8 tdi 12mm
0 460 414 128 Fiat Ducato 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 193 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 191 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm the one im curently using
0 460 414 099 Land Rover 300 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 098 Land Rover 200 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 054 Iveco Daily 2.5 DI 11mm

GL with the hunt


I think I had seen your youtube chanel, but how many HP your pump 2.9tdi gives you ?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 11, 2020, 08:29:08 pm
I looked through this FAQ and did not see a specific list of the custom bits necessary to use the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump on an AHU and an ALH.  I figured I'd add that list.

AHU:
The snout hole in the pump mounting bracket needs to be enlarged for the larger snout of the LR pump.

Because the LR pump does not have slotted mounting holes, you need to make some accommodation for timing adjustment.  My preference is to use the ALH sprocket and hub.  If you use the ALH sprocket and hub then you either need to use slightly sprocket to hub bolts that are slightly shorter than the stock ALH bolts or trim the pump case slightly where the timing pin goes.  If you use the stock ALH sprocket to hub bolts (which are single-use) without clearancing the pump case they will hit.  Another option is to file the pump mounting holes so they are slots.  If you make the pump mounting holes into slots, you can use the AHU sprocket. 
 
The plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt by the injection lines needs to be changed.  I've used the 1.6 plate which requires 2 additional holes to be drilled for mounting to the distributor head.

The LR delivery valves are longer.  The two options are to either swap the delivery valves for short ones or bend the metal lines to fit the LR delivery valves.  I've used TDI delivery valves and 1.6 delivery valves and either work fine and will fit the stock ALH injection lines.  I have also bent the metal fuel lines and have not had any issues after thousands of miles of use.  The downside to swapping valves is the fact that you need to source the valves and/or take them from a working pump destroying its value.  The downside to bending the lines is that if you ever have to replace a line you will need to bend that one as well.

ALH:

The LR pump snout is the correct diameter to fit the ALH pump mounting bracket.  The ALH pump mounting holes are threaded to accept the m8 bolts that fit through from the sprocket side.  The LR holes are not threaded and are too large to tap to the m8 size.  I tapped them to m10 and got the correct length m10 bolts which just barely fit through the bracket. 

The other necessary changes are the same as written in the AHU section.  The delivery valve length issue and the plate for the 4th pump mounting bolt need to be addressed.

When timing these, some mechanics have told me on the IDI's, that they can basically time them  by ear with moving the pump on the slotted mounting bracket holes.  Is this a big advantage of having the slotted pump mounts vs the slotted ALH sprocket/hub?  Is it possible to time these by ear with slotted pump mounting bracket holes while the engine is running?  just slightly snug and a rap with a rubber mallet?  To get them from a noisy clackety diesel to the point where it starts to quiet down like an eTDI I assume is the sound you're going for...

Also, will the AHU/1Z sprocket work on the Land Rover Bosch VE pumps the same as the ALH sprocket/hub?

I have the ALH sprocket and a Landy 300TDI pump, but just curious if there is a big advantage when timing it by ear to use the slotted bracket instead of slotted sprocket. 


Also, does anyone have any recommendations of dial gauge adapters for timing, or even a complete kit of the timing tools and locking pins that would work the full range from my 1983  1.6TD-IDI & '82 1.6D, my 2002 eTDI Jetta Wagon, and my 2003 Passat mTDI with Land Rover 300TDI pump? Or multiple kits?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 11, 2020, 08:46:10 pm
i just wanted to add some pumps to the list of parts numbers worth searching for. most off them are euro cars though

0 460 424 138 vw LT 2.8 12mm
0 460 414 156 peugeot 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 424 164 Fiat Ducato 2.8 tdi 12mm
0 460 414 128 Fiat Ducato 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 193 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 191 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
(the one im curently using)
0 460 414 099 Land Rover 300 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 098 Land Rover 200 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 054 Iveco Daily 2.5 DI 11mm


GL with the hunt

Can anyone elaborate on this Kia Carnival 2.9L mini-van pump being used on a VW TDI?  JFKO???

Does this mount just the same as the Land Rover pumps? 
EDIT - this has slotted unthreaded adjustable mounting holes like the AHU/1Z and older IDI pumps, but has the 68mm nose that fits right into the ALH front pump mounting bracket.  Running an AHU/1Z 1pc sprocket is a direct fit.  To fit these on an AHU or 1Z, the front mounting bracket still needs opened up to 68mm by a machinist.  The rear mounting bracket needs to be AHU, 1Z, or older VW IDI, or the Kia bracket adapted to the mTDI swap.  The AHU/1Z sprocket will require the pump to be able to be rotated in place for adjustment vs the ALH 2pc pump sprocket/hub assembly

These things seem far more plentiful on eBay in Spain exclusively, vs the Land Rover pumps worldwide. 

Being off of a 2.9L engine vs the Land Rover being on a 2.5L engine, it has a little more aggressive camplate, but still has the same governor settings, and need the governor mod similar that the 300TDI pumps need in order to run the full range of RPM's that the stock VW engines run.  They will run quite well at lower RPM as stock though, but will start tapering off the fuel delivery nearing 4000rpm...

Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 11, 2020, 11:21:19 pm
More info on the Kia 2.9L pump:


From a 2009 thread:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,22191.15.html
gigaz2: 11mm plunger, good camplate, accelerator position sensor (for the vnt controller), sweet
golftd412000: it's a good pump and the came plate is the hightest namedtintin have tested this came in her tdi-m
gigaz2: aggressive camplate, lots of pressure, I'll be getting some bigger injectors around .260
gigaz2: the nose where the pulley goes seems correct, but the body of the pump needs a 68mm hole to be mounted, vw uses 50mm
burn_your_money: The VW pumps with 2 piece pulleys use a 68mm mounting
blackdogvan: I think they are very similar to the rover pumps. 
Baxter: AAZ pumps, there are a few variants (I stopped counting at 14 different part numbers) but the crap one, the one with the PWM modulated timing advance control on the bottom has a bigger mounting hole, unsure of the size, but it's for the pumps with the vernier pulley to set the timing, infact, thinking about it, the later T4 (Eurovan) has a similar pump, so i should imaging brackets from the "ABL" coded engine could also be suitable.
oldskool rich: VW use lucas pumps on some engines they have a bigger bracket hole, that's what i used for my disco 1Z, if that's what u mean, i also used the pulley off an ALH slightly modified

Edit - the Carnival is known as the Kia Sedona in the US market, but we did not get the diesel of course, in typical american tradition, only the big trucks get the diesels since VW Dieselgate...

Kia Carnival I 2.9 TDi Engine Technical Data
Compression Ratio :   18.9
Maximum power - Output - Horsepower :   126 PS or 124 bhp or 93 kW @ 3600 rpm
Maximum torque :   331 Nm or 244 lb.ft @ 2000 rpm[/i]


Here are extended part #'s for both of the Kia Carnival 2.9L mTDI pumps. I believe 1999-2001?

0460414191    VE4/11F2000R790-1

0460414193    VE4/11F2000R790-2

I don't know if there are other pumps for this engine. There's another "R790" but can't say where it's from.
0460414178    VE4/11F2000R790

And also this other Bosch # 0 460 414 207 comes up as same application for the 0 460 414 191, but I have not compared parts whatsoever to know the difference.

I looked for the cam plate and I found the application list from an online shop.
0460424313 ; 0460424251 ; 0460424242 ; 0460424241 ; 0460424233 ; 0460414247 ; 0460414246 ; 0460414242 ; 0460414239 ; 0460414219 ; 0460414218 ; 0460414216 ; 0460414215 ; 0460414211 ; 0460414210 ; 0460414207 ; 0460414193 ; 0460414191 ; 0460414178
It might be a good swap part for more serious performance oriented pump tuning.





-------------------------------------------------------


It looks like this 12mm pump, "0 460 424 237" uses the same pump body/housing as these above, so perhaps it is a good candidate for higher horsepower ALH mTDI builds?  Looks like it came in a Ford Ranger with the 2.9L 0 460 424 237 diesel engine, around the model year 2000.  I wonder if it's the same 2.9L engine in the Kia Carnival???l
VE4/12F1900R905-1
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 11, 2020, 11:47:46 pm
And here's a nice listing of Bosch VE pump part numbers and corresponding vehicle applications:

https://vdocuments.site/download/fuel-injection-pump-product-model-list

http://dl.vdocuments.site/download/7ec4bf69d021a7dfd09e419730172160e0ba21782a729cbcada9ae92847cff8cf4b4f640ba9f0b26863e3f705e24d052e8d0bc608bbebd49d635891fa350b9a474atxxz5IcH0S5wUHorlMqQE4m7kDqgODcIpfpF2yvSrogMFYFBjoRBxG5ABU+HOBQwvJIiFsUb0sWCZImuRGk75Qu5Irf%2Fdcomn4I4UTIo%3D

It's actually showing the Land Rover 200TDI pump as a different/additional part number than I had saved,
0 460 414 069 E RR 0459 VE4/11F2000R347 ROVER 200 TDI

as these are the two Bosch part numbers I had saved that were supposed to be for 200TDI and then 300TDI:
0 460 414 098 E RR4419 VE4/11F2000R509 ROVER/FORD Gemini-TCI D.I.23L
0 460 414 099 E RR4046 VE4/11F2000R509-1 ROVER 19L
The 23L engine designation says it's a 300TDI with EGR, my prior info from VWDiesel.net said that was a 200TDI pump...
The 19L engine designation says it's a 300TDI with EDC, the drive by wire Rover pump... triple check your info folks...
Another listing http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm shows the 0 460 414 099 as a 23L, the listing I referenced above shows it as a 19L...
It additionally lists the 0 460 414 080 AND THE 0 460 414 136 as a 23L...triple check your info folks...

That later link shows the 0 460 414 991 VE4/11E2000R500 as being a 19L, 21L, 22L, and 23L pump 10/1993 - 12/1998... as well as the 0 460 414 997

Wikipedia shows the 23L as EDC drive-by-wire:
 These engines (designated 23L) had Bosch Electronic Diesel Control systems, where the mechanical injector system was controlled by a drive-by-wire electronic throttle to reduce emissions.



More info from my Microcat LR parts info -- 300TDI engine prefix

16L 1995 model year Defender
17L Discovery &/or RRC EDC Manual
18L ----------------------------- EDC Manual/DeToxed
19L ----------------------------- EDC Auto
20L ----------------------------- EDC Auto DeToxed

21L ----------------------------- EGR Manual
22L------------------------------- EGR Auto
23L Defender EGR.

200TDI engine prefix = 11L & 12L

Some other Land Rover 300TDI info:
https://www.landroverexpedition.com/engines/300tdi/
    Years produced: 1994 - 2006
    Power: 111 bhp (83 kW)
    Torque: 195 lb/ft (264 N/m)
    Fuel: Diesel
    Capacity: 2495cc (2.5 litres)
    Cylinders: 4
    Serial code prefix:
        16L (non EGR), 23L (EGR), 24L (EGR Auto) Defender
        17L/18L (EDC Manual), 19L/20L (EDC Auto), 21L (EGR Manual), 22L (EGR Auto) Discovery/Range Rover Classic
(The EDC engine has a different fuel injection pump which is a drive by wire electronic pump as opposed to the accelerator steel cable. It is more common on the Discovery 300TDI)

Going by this, the 16L seems to be the version of 300TDI engines whose pump would be the most desired basic version, and the 21L through 24L 300TDI versions would also be nearly the same but with slightly different timing spec (EGR versions) and a throttle position sensor on the top of the throttle linkage shaft.

http://dieselevante.it shows:
0 460 414 069   VE R 347 as being Land Rover 200 TDI
0 460 414 099   VE R 509/1 as being Land Rover 19L 300 TDI...


Soooooo much misinformation and so many questionably erroneous listings here, especially when trying to figure out the different versions of the 300TDI vs Bosch pump numbers...

So the Land Rover pump that I have appears to be a non-EGR (no Throttle Position Sensor, unless it was removed) has stamped:
0 460 414 136
R509-3

21404

coincidentally, http://dieselevante.it lists that pump as Ford F 1000 2.5 70 kw, but Google searching brings up Rover application info as well... so many discrepancies everywhere.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 15, 2020, 11:55:59 pm
Some Bosch VE code deciphering:

Part # format: 0 460 414 099

0 = Denotes complete product
460 = Product class, Distributor pump
4 = Identifier for VE Injection pump
1 = Plunger Diameter: 8=8mm,9=9mm,0=10mm,1=11mm,2=12mm,3=13mm & 4=14mm
4 = Number of Cylinders
099 = Specific Application Number

Additional numbers on the pump include the OEM manufacturer's part # as well, and others.


Example:
V E 4 / 9 F 2400 L 12

V: Distributor injection pump
E: Axial piston high pressure pump or R: radial piston high pressure pump
2-6: Number of high pressure outlets
8-12: Pump plunger diameter in mm.
F: Mechanical governor or E: Electric actuator mechanism or M: high pressure solenoid valve.
2400: Upper pump nominal speed (half of engine rpm)
L: Counter clockwise or R: Clockwise (view toward pump drive)
12: Type code.

Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 16, 2020, 12:13:23 am
And here's a link with a lot of info on some European Ford Transit van Bosch VE injection pumps similar to the Land Rover 300TDI pumps, especially in that they don't impress much until you modify the governor in them!  I think I read that they just have one long governor spring, which I read of this person saying they tied several of the coils together with thin stainless steel wire or something of that sort, to shorten the spring and make it stiffer, and it ran much higher RPM's happily after that?  I probably would have just looked into a substitute spring myself, or just cutting and bending the end to shorten it.

https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=184873&c=1

**********************************************************************************************************************************



List of Bosch VE injection pumps and vehicle fitment and model numbers http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm

Ford Transit Engine codes https://www.idealengines.co.uk/engine-codes.asp?make_id=15&mo_id=31290&part_id=517&pname=ford-transitdiesel-engine-codes

Bosch vehicle search http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/

Bosch VE injection pump exploded view parts catalogue http://dieselcatalog.online/en/bosch/0460/0460414119.html

Bosch VE injection pump rebuild picture guide https://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6694

Bosch VE injection pump stripdown video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_01gEg2ZMwg

Bosch VE injection pump rebuild video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkDsEQx82do

Bosch VE injection pump operation video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqBlqdeP3uE

Bosch VE injection pump calibration video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNVLw4WRJdU

Bosch VE injection pump Bosch manual http://gershon.ucoz.com/BOSCH/DIESEL/pumpsVE/Bosch_VE_Pumps.pdf

Bosch Ve injection pump governor (interesting cut away pump video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j0vrfaXPmw

List of similar links, lots for 306 forum posts on tuning Bosch VE injection pump Scroll down page to VE injection pump section
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6136470-Repairing-Bosch-VE-Pumps-Manuals-References-etc

For tuning info Peugeot forums, Land Rover forums, Cummins forums; any vehicle that has the Bosch VE injection pump fitted and has a forum will probably have lots of info.



**********************************************************************************************************************************

If there is a 14 mm hexagon socket in the pump cover, a 16 bar pressure gauge is connected to this fitting, the motor is started and, by unscrewing the connector, the pressure is measured at various engine speeds.
It is sufficient to perform measurements at 1000 rpm and at 4000 rpm.
The pressure at 1000 rpm of the ENGINE should be about 5.5 bar, at 4000 rpm-9 ... 10 bar.
In the fuel pump with different numbers, the pressure may vary slightly.
If there is no fitting, then you need to make the fitting yourself.
I have not made such a fitting yet, but there is a plan.
Pressure in bars.
To increase the pressure in the body of the injection pump, it is necessary to strike the plug in the channel of the regulating valve through a steel rod with a diameter of 6 mm.
To reduce the pressure, you need to measure the depth of the plug in the channel and unscrew the regulating valve from the pump casing.
nstall the valve so that its internal parts can fall into the well depth of about 10 ... 12 mm and a diameter of 7 ... 8 mm.
And blow the hammer through the rod to knock out of the valve channel a spring ring stopper, a cylindrical piston about 5 mm high and a spring.
Then turn the valve over and through the opened channel to remove the plug to the level of the valve body.
Insert the spring, piston into the valve and hammer the ring stopper into place with a light hammer blow.
Install the valve on the injection pump, start the engine and hit the hammer with the hammer, pour the plug to the required pressure at 1000 rpm.
If the pump is OK, the required pressure will be set automatically at 4000 rpm.

Video of testing and adjusting the running pressure of the pump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHMcSENfOw


EDIT - from another post on here from fatmobile:
Bosch service center guy said these specs are way too high and could crack the pump.
 79.77psi @ is probably double what it should be at 1000 engine RPM.


**********************************************************************************************************************************

Recommendations for replacing the Ford Epic fuel pump on the injection pump Bosch in French.
http://www.giordanobenicchi.it/camper/FORD/EPIC_686.htm

**********************************************************************************************************************************

Test plan in Russian for injection pump 0 460 414 153
http://dieselmastera.ru/_fr/60/ESI_PW_1.pdf
Test plan in Russian for injection pump with turbo corrector
0 460 414 154.
http://dieselmastera.ru/_fr/60/ESI_PW.pdf
Injection pump Bosch VЕ 0 460 414 154 for the Turkish FT OTOSAN
100 horsepower.

**********************************************************************************************************************************
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 19, 2020, 07:39:42 pm
More pertinent mTDI notes I have copied and pasted from various forums and FB Groups:

libbydiesel on 26 Feb, 2019 22:20
I don't know whether the pump is a 200 or 300TDI pump, but it is one of the two.  Set up stock they will rev up over 4,000 rpms. 
Make sure that the hub is installed correctly on the pump shaft and isn't 180° out.  The hub needs to be installed so that the slot in the hub aligns with the hole in the pump when the keyway in the pump shaft is point to the #1 cylinder delivery valve.  *****The stock land rover hub is installed 180° out of time.  In that situation it will still run but will lack power.  I don't know that it would be limited to 2100 rpms, though.  A good baseline timing spec is then 1.40mm for that pump.Definitely weird that it was limited to ~2100.  Did it rev above that when in 'neutral' or was there not any neutral on the boat install?  The pump could certainly have been set up incorrectly on the rebuild.  Governor could be wrong.  The camplate could be installed 180° out of time.  Another thing that comes to mind is to

--------------

the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump is pretty much ideal for the ALH. It has the correct nose diameter to fit the ALH bracket. You can use the ALH sprocket and hub which will give the correct offset for the timing belt. To mount it, you can run a tap into the three mounting holes at the sprocket end of the pump and use M10 bolts if memory serves. They are larger than the stock ALH bolts but will just barely fit through the holes in the timing cover/bracket. There are a couple of other minor items to address but it is 99% bolt-on and will outperform a stock ALH eTDI out of the box.
(A. Libby)

----------
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,46476.0.html
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?9375483-300-tdi-landrover-pump-on-an-ALH-TDI-engine&p=114031915#post114031915
The hub on the pump,
the part that the timing belt sprocket bolts to,
needs to be the one from the ALH engine. The hub from the Rover application has the wrong offset for the timing belt location as well as other differences.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49218918073_c2f7a91e4e_n.jpg)

The slot for the locking pin on the landrover pump is bigger than the one on the ALH pump.
And the hole the pin slides into is bigger.
So I either had to cut the ALH slot wider or put a bushing in the LR pump.
I made a bushing, but don't have a picture of it yet.
I still ended up having to cut the ALH slot deeper because the LR pump hole is lower.

Now if you go back to this picture,
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49221007662_699b925268_c.jpg)
Tthe allen bolt at the front nose area of the pump gets removed and a longer bolt goes in the hole.
It's used to lock the pump shaft when it's at 1.43 mm.
Lock it there with the alignment pin in the hub slot and tighten it down.
Further fine tuning adjustments are done with the sprocket bolts.
The first picture also shows how close the alignment pin hole is to the hub,..
the sprocket bolts will hit it.
About 3/16" needs to be removed.

The pump mounting holes are threaded on the ALH pump.
Not so on the LR pump.
I put 8m1.25 helicoils in the holes.
They felt a little loose, like the holes were slightly too big.
I'm not too worried but will use longer bolts and add nuts on the top 2 bolts.
Andrew suggested I use 10m 1.5 or 1.25 bolts.
I'll try that on the next one.

From photo, for governor mod, replace the middle spring, the shorter spring of the larger diameter 2, with several washers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225386483_afac9239dd_c.jpg)

On the high pressure end of the pump I used a 1.6 mounting bracket.
Drilled a few extra holes for allen bolts, probably didn't need to..
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49255172348_48f66b729c_c.jpg)

There are holes in the metal high pressure head that are supposed to support the bracket.
 The Land Rover pump had them in a different spot so the TDI bracket had little support.
 The MK1 bracket didn't line up with the right holes either so I drilled them into the bracket.
 Where the 2 allen bolts are.
 
 To drill the right spot I screwed the pointy bolt into the hole and bolted the bracket on,..
 then tapped it with a hammer to use it like a center punch.
To make the pointy bolt I put a bolt in the drill press and held a grinder up to it while it was spinning,..
 then filed a couple flat spots so I could grip it.

I'll just explain what I did on the other end.
First off the shaft locking bolt is 10M1 thread and needs to have at least 1 3/8" of threads.
 
 I made a bushing to fill the alignment pin hole,
 instead of grinding the hub slot to fit the pin.
 I found a piece of about 3/8" aluminum rod and drilled the center to 15/64" on my 1945 Altas lathe.
 
It seemed cleaner but I ended up having to grind the hub slot too.
Because the alignment pin hole on the TDI is up higher
so I had to grind the slot deeper to match the LR pump hole.

I locked the shaft at 1.4mm, my dial gauge isn't metric so I used .055".
Then cleaned and degreased the hub center and shaft before sticking them together with a nut.
 
 Where that pin hole is on the LR pump also stands out farther
 so the 3 TDI sprocket mounting bolts hit the pump.
 I shortened the bolts but probably could have removed some from the pump as well, only talking about 1/8".

 The TDI pump is bolted on  from the timing belt side, so it's threaded.
 The LR pump isn't tapped.
 I installed 8M1.25 helicoils.
 The hole was almost too big to use a helicoil but I think it will work. (EDIT - a  TimeSert full sleeve insert would work and give full thread engagement, FYI)
*from LibbyDiesel:
I tapped the 3 LR pump mounting holes to M10 (as opposed to a loose fitting M8 tapped into the existing holes).  The M10 bolts fit fine through the timing belt backing plate and the accessory bracket.


more from FatMobile:
 On the top of the pump I used the LR accel lever and spring setup.
 I think the LR pump uses the tall bushing like the MK2.
 So I think the MK2 accel lever and spring setup would work but I didn't have one to try.
 The ball the MK1 and MK2 accel cable snaps to fits the LR lever with a little drilling.
But I might still weld a piece of early adjustable bracket to the end.
 Having the cable attach farther from the center
 means small movement of the foot moves the lever less.
 Might not be as sensitive to movement. 

(FatMobile on VWVortex & VWDiesel.net)

----------

AHU w/Land Rover 300TDI pump:
the AHU pump is small where it goes into the mount.. like any pre AHU pumps... a newer pump ALH aka 99.5+ mk4 style requires a machine shop to open that hole up to about 68mm i think it was.. then from reading requires a few shims to get the gear to line up perfectly with the belt... remember the pulley becomes the adjustment vs turning the pump to do so. mine was machined next day.. and machinist said it was cake, too.

for a mk4 style tdi it's almost direct bolt on...
----------------

the Rover pump fits one version of AAZ bracket which bolts up to the (AHU/1Z?) TDI block, you need to weld on a lug for the TB roller or just leave it out. the AHU sprocket fits the LR shaft perfectly too.

the advance springs need swapping to something softer (AAZ?) and they run fine, have a look on vwdiesel.net for my posts as well as others on this subject. getting the timing right is the hardest part.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)

the mk4 pulley has no keyway on the 'holder/flange' so setting it at TDC can be a pain, I'd prefer to use an AHU pulley and just live with the fact that you have to adjust the timing by swinging the pump (and grind out the ALH bracket mounting holes to slots, or use older VW pump brackets that are already slotted.

-----

I've just put one of these pumps on a 1Z.

I used the pump bracket from a 1.9TD T4 transporter van (eurovan to the Americans) as I had one laying around. The AAZ bracket I had I'm sure was too small, but now ryanp has mentioned it, I will have to look again. Ryan, was the AAZ a late one with the 2-piece hub by any chance?

I used the 1Z pulley which meant slotting the pump mounting holes so the timing could be set by turning the whole pump.

Timing figures, I started at 1.54mm (EDIT - 1.54mm for EGR model Land Rover pumps, not non-EGR which are 1.40mm) which is a number I have seen on a few threads and it ran at that setting. However, it was a bit smokey and with some more advance ran perfect
(MarkB_1303 @ TDI Club)

----------

The bracket was the one with a 2pc hub as far as I remember, at first I got my mates grandad to open up a TDI bracket, but realized this afterwards! I did the same for the first setup I made, slotting the holes. The second one just used a stock AAZ bracket and the Mk4 Golf TDI hub/sprocket but finding TDC would be a pain with no keyway so I sold it all.
The mk4 pulley fits right on the Rover pump, just needs a key way to make sure its in the right place.

I'd like to see how the pump goes if you open the timing cover up and put a softer spring in, maybe a AAZ one will work?? The governor needs doing as the Land rovers don’t rev well at all.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)

----------

I've fitted my LR 300TDI 11mm pump on my mTDI & it wasn't too difficult but there were a few things. I started with a Canadian AAZ IP bracket & had to have the nose bore opened up for the LR pump but just a few mm. From there it installed easily with a ALH 2 piece flange/pulley & shorter delivery valves from an old AAZ pump so the stock lines would line up without needing any bends.

Goes like a stabbed rat compared to the AAZ I had in before, mileage is consistent at 7.5L/100km (AAZ was 9.3) which is pretty good for pushing around a fat Vanagon & a heavy foot. PP520's (from RyanP), K03 hybrid @ 18psi & NO smoke... none; i could probably use a bit more fuel but i'm happy as it is. Initally I set the timing to 1.2 but that was a tad (ok more than a tad...) smokey at cold start. I beleive its around 1.4ish now & no smoke at start & not clacky sounding. I'm very happy with the results.

Giles pressed the hub on so its locks at TDC. On the LR pumps its not hard to figure out though, the woodruff key on the shaft points to the #1 cylinder pump outlet at pump TDC.

(BlackDogVan @ TDIclub)

------

The Rover 2.5L engine puts out 120 hp in stock form - stock injectors, stock turbo, stock emissions profile. The pump itself has no trouble pushing more fuel than that.

The pump head itself is identical to an 11mm ALH pump. The cam plate in the pump (which is what actually pushes on the plunger more or less) isn't quite as aggressive as the stock AHU/ALH ones. This does limit the fueling you can achieve a tiny bit. Larger nozzles take care of that though. If you are going for an all out 200 hp+ build then swapping in a different cam plate wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, however the stock one is sufficient for most people's needs if they are doing injectors too.

The earlier Rover 200 TDI pumps have a more aggressive cam plate than the later 300 TDI ones, though there's been some suggestions that the 200 pumps are more likely to break plunger return springs due to said cam plate. I can't say either way - I have the 300 TDI version along with large nozzles and I definitely don't have any issues getting enough fuel in there.
(VanBCguy @ TDIClub)
-----
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 19, 2020, 11:23:24 pm
Spain is really going strong with a large supply of used mechanical direct injection turbodiesel pumps in my recent searches, this website seems to be a salvage yard search site, and has 6 or 8+ Rover pumps available for reasonable used prices.  William Smith's at least come with the assurance that they came off of known running vehicles.  These salvage yard pumps may be just "rebuildable cores" if you're shipping from overseas

https://www.recambioverde.es/piezas-desguace/land-rover/bomba-inyeccion-land-rover-defender-ld-1996-2002_rv730058001009.html
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Buji88 on August 19, 2020, 12:56:08 pm

William Smith's at least come with the assurance that they came off of known running vehicles.  These salvage yard pumps maybe just "rebuildable cores" if you're shipping from overseas



Awesome, thank you for pointing that out. I wasn't able to find any information on this William Smith's. Do you have a website or where they are from? I found a wicked deal on a ALH and it needs a pump.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: fatmobile on August 19, 2020, 11:12:44 pm
 William smith has an ad in the classifieds.
 I got my pump from him.
 It needed a shaft seal but I think it will run fine once I get injectors that aren't pissers.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on August 20, 2020, 12:38:23 pm
Here's a GREAT tutorial/lesson on how the Bosch VE rotary diesel injection pumps work. I've also saved this as a pdf also in case the webpage ever goes away.

http://stuff.is-a-geek.net/OnlineDocs/Vehicles/vepump.html




Setting the base timing with a dial gauge allows you to measure the distance the cam plate moves the plunger from a zero setting your target setting as the engine rotates to #1 cylinder compression stroke TDC.
Once you have the sprocket hub installed in the correct orientation for your particular mTDI pump (this can vary between pumps, the VW vs the Land Rover for example), sprocket to hub alignment locking pin installed, and you have the crank locked/in position for #1 cylinder to be at TDC, camshaft to be locked in position for #1 TDC on compression stroke (as dictated by camshaft orientation, there are 2 TDC's / revolutions for the crank per 1 revolution of the camshaft FYI, cam spins at half crankshaft speed on 4 stroke engines), the engine should start and run, but will benefit from some fine tuning. 

Some advice on fine tuning the timing by ear after obtaining the dial indicator lift setting - time it somewhere by ear between clack (too advanced) and smoking at idle (too retarded), and shoot for most power and best fuel efficiency without much smoking on normal driving loads (of course fuel screw settings can alter this smoke output, so be aware that if it has been adjusted from stock factory setting, this is not a guaranteed method of knowing if it is too retarded).
On pumps with slotted mountings, move the pump towards the engine (advance the timing) until you start to hear audible clickitey-clacking sounds, and then back off a bit. You are now right within this specific engine setup's optimal range, shortly before too much advance. Finding the best setting around this range will yield the best performance, cold starting, and economy.
For the ALH type 2pc slotted adjustable pump sprocket and hub, you would be rotating the adjustable sprocket the opposite direction that is stated to rotate the pump in the above description.
Once you have gotten the slotted pump mounting adjustment swiveled to the desired position where it runs the best and you are the most pleased, torque the front and rear pump mounting bolts, and then loosen and then re-tighten the delivery valves fuel line fitting nuts the back of the head to take any binding off of the lines from the twisting adjustment.  For those using the ALH 2pc slotted sprocket/hub, this is not necessary, and you may see the added benefit of a stationary pump due to this as well.  Being able to swing the pump with the bolts slightly loosened, in order to observe the audible and visual indicators, is quite a nice feature, however.  But not worrying about stresses on the injector hard lines is also nice. 

As moving the pump even 0.5mm can noticeably change the way the engine runs, for reference, it's good to use a paint pen to mark a range of adjustment on the pump/bracket or sprocket/hub, and scribe (or use permanent ink marker) 2 lines on one side as the driveable adjustment range, and one line on the other side as the reference pointer.
Just be aware that if you change the timing belt, or even at various points during a timing belt's lifespan, the marked range you made for reference may change slightly due to belt wear/stretch, manufacturing tolerance/variances, and belt tension.

Turn it while running and you will get a good feel for where it likes to run,.. that'll get you in the general area.
 
Setting the plunger lift using a dial gauge is not guaranteed to give you the absolute best setting ESPECIALLY on an mTDI hybrid build, but should be used as a basis and reference to then fine tune the timing by ear to get a better feel for where your particular and individually unique engine setup runs the best. It is worth the extra time and labor to find the sweet spot.  Most people find their engine runs better slightly above the specified OEM application range anyway.

Also as a disclaimer, if you set the timing excessively retarded, you will have a very high EGT. If you set it too advanced, you will increase cylinder pressure to a very high level, and especially with excessive fueling in the search for more power, could cause you to bend a rod... so err on the side of caution slightly from the clickety-clacking sound of too much advance, but know that you are skirting on a fine line of awesome power and efficiency, and the dangerzone.




Also another tip for your initial startup for priming the fuel lines and pump, and clearing of any air,
1st - run clear fuel lines at the filter and injection pump to be able to monitor for air bubbles. 
The pump will have a hard time priming itself if there is a lot of air in the lines.
Put a vacuum on the output of the injection pump and pull fuel all the way through the filter and pump. A brake bleeding setup such as the MityVac SilverLine Elite pump and liquid pumping canisters will work nicely.

As far as the 2pc sprocket's hub installing goes on the Land Rover pump, from Libby:
To install the hub, make sure the shaft keyway is aligned with the delivery valve for the #1 injector, make sure the dial indicator is rising as you turn CW, and when you arrive at the dial indicator setting you desire, lock the pump shaft with the side bolt.  With the shaft locked, install the hub with the pin in place and tighten the hub nut.  Whenever the pin fits should then equal the dial indicator reading you used previously.  I think 1.40mm is a good baseline timing spec for the LR pump.  You might want to adjust from there, though.  Set to 12° BTDC at idle with the pulse adapter.   




Overall, the pump timing spec is highly dependent on a few other specifications, such as the profile/charachteristics of the camplate in the injection pump, and the injector breaking pressure.  That's why there are so many different values out there. The shape of the camplate ramp heavily influences the timing setting.

From TDIClub:

Pump piston size (9,10,11,12 mm) The larger the piston the lower it's lift at TDC for the same crankshaft degree timing.

Cam plate shape, this is much more subtle but it will change timing somewhat. Cam shape changes the way an injector fires more then when.

Injector pop pressure, lower pressure earlier firing. This is why injector balance is very important.

Injector line length, Longer lines = later firing. This is why line lengths need to be the same.

But all of this is just changing when the injector is firing. If your compression is low the actual combustion event happens later then if the compression is higher (within spec). All static injector pump timing specs are based on a known set of parameters and if those parameters change then the static timing will also need to change.

Basically what I am saying is that mTDI timing is going to depend on your particular setup. I think that a diesel timing light adapter is going to be a crucial instrument when I set up my mTDI's timing
With my 12mm head I think a good place to start is at the .8-.9 mm at TDC and then time with a diesel timing light to about 12+/- degrees before TDC crank timing (this seems to be the consensus for timing light timing).
-Jaysin

I really don't see how I could have set mine up without my pulse adapter. Non standard nozzles, a pump that was never meant to be bolted to this engine....
-vanbcguy

https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/install-my-mtdi-pump-0460424138-but-what-should-i-set-the-timing-to.431721/

Also, some timing belt install tips for rookies:
Lock cam, release cam pulley,
lock injection pump, release the 3 pulley bolts.
Verify crank/flywheel is lined up at bellhousing or other TDC verification using a long dial indicator on a magnetic base, with long pointer through #1 cylinder glow plug/injector hole
Replace idler and tensioner
Install new belt
Tension belt
Tighten injection pump and cam pulley,
Remove locks
Rotate crank 4 full revolutions by hand gently to check for interference (if changing on an in-service engine, rotate by hand before beginning job to get a feel for force required)
verify at flywheel that timing marks and tool locking locations still all line up after exactly 4 revolutions of engine by hand
install lock tools -  if all fit in properly, your timing is good.
pull center bolt from back of injection pump,
put dial indicator in, remove locks and dial in the IP timing to the proper specification
Remove dial, install bolt in back side of injection pump,
Remove lock tools
Start it up and run it. change next timing belt in 80,000 miles! Sooner if you have an 11mm injection pump and stock nozzles, or 12mm injection pump and even DLC 520 nozzles etc. 


Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Buji88 on August 20, 2020, 02:53:57 pm
William smith has an ad in the classifieds.
 I got my pump from him.
 It needed a shaft seal but I think it will run fine once I get injectors that aren't pissers.

Thank you so much, going to look at this ALH on Saturday, hope to buy and start on my second engine for my sidekick:)
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on September 27, 2020, 11:10:23 am
William smith has an ad in the classifieds.
 I got my pump from him.
 It needed a shaft seal but I think it will run fine once I get injectors that aren't pissers.

Thank you so much, going to look at this ALH on Saturday, hope to buy and start on my second engine for my sidekick:)

Did you pick up the ALH?  I should have warned, the Sidekick/Tracker/SunRunner and other small engine bodied 4x4 vehicles often require some drastic measures to obtain a good clearance between the oil pan and the front differential or front solid axle high steer tie rod and differential... clocking the engine over at 19 or 21 degrees (valve cover to passenger side fender top, oil pan away from passenger side drop differential) helps with clearance and reduces the ALH installed height by 2 inches. The AHU/1Z is the best choice for these installs due to the oil pump location being in the rear out of the way (allowing custom modifications to the oil pan for diff/steering components), even up to as large  as the 1979-1985 Toyota pickup trucks with solid front axles (and 85-95 pickups and 96+ Tacomas with solid axle swaps).
I have an ALH swap on the stand awaiting install in my SPOA Suzuki Samurai, which will not be a straightforward swap, but will be doable with many alterations.  Longer front leafs and axle moved forward further on leafs, steering box pushed slightly further forward for high steer clearance between the tie rod and drag link when moving axle, clocking engine over 20 degrees to the passenger side (North America right side as seated), clocking the turbo up top to facilitate the engine clocking over, clearancing the firewall back in two areas on the passenger side 1 inch and 2 inches respectively to be able to push the engine back further and clear the coolant flange and ALH vacuum pump, which also requires modifying the heater core in/out tubing...


I edited my post and added some pump timing tuning tips which I have gathered from several sources and made into one reference guide on the previous page, FYI.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Buji88 on December 08, 2020, 05:20:58 pm
I didn't actually, and a lot of the reasons you have stated are the reasons why I decided to stay with the AAZ. My adapter already tilts the engine to the passenger side so not as big of a concern and I'm a welder/fabricator by trade so it's not that big of a deal. However, a buddy of mine is going in a different direction on his build and I have a chance to pick up a BRM of unknown mileage or running condition for a song. And Im back to thinking a M-TDI BRM/ALH might be on the table again. Can't seem to find anybody who has done it though.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on December 09, 2020, 11:56:26 am
As long as the BRM pistons are compatible with the valves and injection on the ALH head, you should be completely good to go, same as a BHW bottom end swap if going mTDI, no worry about the crank position sensor ring, but you will likely need to fit the ALH front seal carrier and drill &tap for a missing timing belt idler roller.
The bhw seal carrier has the correct dowel locations and one or two correct bolt holes but you need to drill and tap to other bolt holes for it. The BRM and BEW may not require this, but that is definitely not certain.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Buji88 on December 09, 2020, 01:23:32 pm
Yes, in the research I've done it seems like the front carrier is the biggest hurdle. He has another deal pending with that engine so it is up in the air right now. Likely, Im going to push forward with my 1.9 AAZ since it is great shape, just need some more power and I will be good to go, but I still plan on doing an M-TDI at some point, just right now. It seems like it would be a great combination though.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on January 09, 2021, 04:32:18 pm
i just wanted to add some pumps to the list of parts numbers worth searching for. most off them are euro cars though

0 460 424 138 vw LT 2.8 12mm
0 460 414 156 peugeot 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 424 164 Fiat Ducato 2.8 tdi 12mm
0 460 414 128 Fiat Ducato 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 193 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 191 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm the one im curently using
0 460 414 099 Land Rover 300 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 098 Land Rover 200 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 054 Iveco Daily 2.5 DI 11mm

GL with the hunt


I think I had seen your youtube chanel, but how many HP your pump 2.9tdi gives you ?

I have never had it on a dyno but at stock settings it's a lot faster than a afn mk3
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on January 09, 2021, 05:02:47 pm
so i was bored the other day. and decided to update my previous list a bit. note i have still only actually used kia pumps on the mtdi engines i have made.
Update mostly a bunch of Sofim engine pumps that are new, and some corrections. With the Sofim engines i have just written the engine that they came on and the engine name

Kia Carnival 2.9 d/td/tdi 0 460 414 193, 0 460 414 191, 0 460 414 178, 0 460 414 207, still the one im using and is currently running in a mk2 Golf and 2 T3/T25/Vanagon campers. If i remember right the only mod i had to do was make the mounting hole bigger. and re drill some holes in the rear pump mount i used the tdi one. and i use the tdi pulley because the Kia one sticks out to far. and on two of the pumps there was also what i think is an immobilizer that i had to remove. and i have used 1.6td mounts for the throttle cable i just had to grind a notch off. mostly because i knew that the length of the cable would fit on my Golf

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.21/8144.21 2.5 TD? 0 460 414 026, 0 460 414 038, 0 460 414 060, 0 460 414 008,

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.23/43 2,8 TD/TDI 0 460 424 124, 0 460 424 125, 0 460 424 137, 0 460 424 136, 0 460 424 139, 0 460 424 141, 0 460 424 142, 0 460 424 148, 0 460 424 152, 0 460 424 157, 0 460 424 164, 

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.27 2.5 TD 0 460 414 081, 0 460 414 054, these engines are according to wikipedia also direct injection

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.47 2.5 TDI 0 460 414 164, 0 460 414 105, 0 460 414 128, 0 460 414 116, 0 460 414 121, 0 460 414 116, 0 460 414 120, 0 460 414 128, 0 460 414 129,
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on January 09, 2021, 05:22:34 pm
btw it's maybe 10 years ago i was enjoying the lovely smells of my local scrap yard and i sniffed my way to something that i have never seen since. a mk3 1.9D with a Lucas pump on it. and it had a pump mount with the 68mm hole in it. so if any of you has issues with centering the hole, see if you can find one of those mounts. works fine for me
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: a2lute on January 15, 2021, 11:43:39 am
So this is a long shot, does anyone have the pictures user "HEY" originally posted? I think I have figured out his lever mod but I would love to see the actual diagram he drew.

-A.Lute
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on January 16, 2021, 04:02:29 pm
btw it's maybe 10 years ago... something that I have never seen since. a mk3 1.9D with a Lucas pump on it. and it had a pump mount with the 68mm hole in it. so if any of you has issues with centering the hole, see if you can find one of those mounts. works fine for me

I have heard of those, but I have never seen one and I doubt that they would be found in the USA whatsoever, however perhaps in Canada.



So this is a long shot, does anyone have the pictures user "HEY" originally posted? I think I have figured out his lever mod but I would love to see the actual diagram he drew.

I dd save a lot of info off of this thread, but did not save anything regarding using an IDI 17mm shaft pump as a base to build a mechanical TDI pump, as I feel the 20mm shaft is critical for reliability if you are seeking more performance output, and there are several pumps such as the Land Rover 300 TDI which are still commonly available and will run pretty well completely stock on a Volkswagen mTDI.

Using a VW 9mm IDI pump to convert to TDI, or using a Cummins 4BT 12mm pump to convert to TDI, are both quite a lot of work. The 4BT pump will work better than the IDI, however.

A well built IDI pump converted to TDI use will be able to run fairly decent, but the most you could expect to get is not much above stock 90hp TDI performance.
So you are basically running an AAZ 1.9TD, but without the pre-chamber cups to worry about, and better cold starting.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on January 18, 2021, 07:59:02 am
yeah as i said i just noticed something was different on that one. i can't even find the parts number for the bracket and i ofc. forgot to write it down when i was at my storage. but i will try and remember to do it the next time
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Marzocchi on January 18, 2021, 08:57:50 am
Hi all,
I'm running a Land Rover 300TDI Pump that I did a governor mod on.
The pump now does exactly what it is supposed to do: it releases a lot of diesel even at high revs.
For the emissions test in germany, however, the pump has to shut off at a certain rpm range. i think between 4500 and 5000 rpm.
Is there any way i can adjust this with the external settings on the pump without having to undo the governor mod? now the engine revs above 6000 rpm.
Thank you!
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: a2lute on January 20, 2021, 03:07:28 pm

So this is a long shot, does anyone have the pictures user "HEY" originally posted? I think I have figured out his lever mod but I would love to see the actual diagram he drew.

I dd save a lot of info off of this thread, but did not save anything regarding using an IDI 17mm shaft pump as a base to build a mechanical TDI pump, as I feel the 20mm shaft is critical for reliability if you are seeking more performance output, and there are several pumps such as the Land Rover 300 TDI which are still commonly available and will run pretty well completely stock on a Volkswagen mTDI.

Using a VW 9mm IDI pump to convert to TDI, or using a Cummins 4BT 12mm pump to convert to TDI, are both quite a lot of work. The 4BT pump will work better than the IDI, however.

A well built IDI pump converted to TDI use will be able to run fairly decent, but the most you could expect to get is not much above stock 90hp TDI performance.
So you are basically running an AAZ 1.9TD, but without the pre-chamber cups to worry about, and better cold starting.

Thanks Chuck, I'm not aiming for extreme performance, just 130-150hp. I am using an ALH core along with an AAZ core to build my mTDI. I suppose I should start a new thread instead of cluttering up the FAQ. I'll get some pictures and post them up in a bit.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: libbydiesel on January 20, 2021, 03:22:57 pm
The AAZ is not a good base pump to use.  There is very little about it worth keeping.  The mainshaft is small, the boost enrichment is terrible, the timing advance curve is wrong, the control collar lever assembly is bad and the accelerator lever assembly is bad.  IMO not a pump worth starting with.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on January 22, 2021, 11:41:20 am
btw it's maybe 10 years ago i was enjoying the lovely smells of my local scrap yard and i sniffed my way to something that i have never seen since. a mk3 1.9D with a Lucas pump on it. and it had a pump mount with the 68mm hole in it. so if any of you has issues with centering the hole, see if you can find one of those mounts. works fine for me

So i got the number 028130147j seems like they were also used on 1.9d T4's
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on June 18, 2021, 07:19:20 am
so i was bored the other day. and decided to update my previous list a bit. note i have still only actually used kia pumps on the mtdi engines i have made.
Update mostly a bunch of Sofim engine pumps that are new, and some corrections. With the Sofim engines i have just written the engine that they came on and the engine name

Kia Carnival 2.9 d/td/tdi 0 460 414 193, 0 460 414 191, 0 460 414 178, 0 460 414 207, still the one im using and is currently running in a mk2 Golf and 2 T3/T25/Vanagon campers. If i remember right the only mod i had to do was make the mounting hole bigger. and re drill some holes in the rear pump mount i used the tdi one. and i use the tdi pulley because the Kia one sticks out to far. and on two of the pumps there was also what i think is an immobilizer that i had to remove. and i have used 1.6td mounts for the throttle cable i just had to grind a notch off. mostly because i knew that the length of the cable would fit on my Golf

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.21/8144.21 2.5 TD? 0 460 414 026, 0 460 414 038, 0 460 414 060, 0 460 414 008,

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.23/43 2,8 TD/TDI 0 460 424 124, 0 460 424 125, 0 460 424 137, 0 460 424 136, 0 460 424 139, 0 460 424 141, 0 460 424 142, 0 460 424 148, 0 460 424 152, 0 460 424 157, 0 460 424 164, 

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.27 2.5 TD 0 460 414 081, 0 460 414 054, these engines are according to wikipedia also direct injection

Iveco Fiat Peugeot Citroen Renault 8140.47 2.5 TDI 0 460 414 164, 0 460 414 105, 0 460 414 128, 0 460 414 116, 0 460 414 121, 0 460 414 116, 0 460 414 120, 0 460 414 128, 0 460 414 129,

Addition i got my hands on a 0460424177 Iveco Daily 2.8 tdi pump the other day, it has the small neck so it don't need the pump bracket enlarged so that might be the same on all off the sofim pumps. And i am running the kia pumps on AHU/AFN style engines,
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: JFKO on June 18, 2021, 07:21:20 am
Any chance Vinzent is looking. i can't reply to your message since you don't appear to have an account.
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on June 19, 2021, 12:19:17 am

Addition i got my hands on a 0460424177 Iveco Daily 2.8 tdi pump the other day, it has the small neck so it don't need the pump bracket enlarged so that might be the same on all off the sofim pumps. And i am running the kia pumps on AHU/AFN style engines,

Great to hear that confirmation!  Now, did you look at it any further to see how the timing belt alignment would be versus a VW TDI pump?

There are 4 or 5 of these New Old Stock in ebay currently in Japan, Singapore, etc for about $900-/+ shipped.

They were on a 2.8L 4-cyl turbodiesel that made 124 horsepower stock.
They also have a 12mm pump head...
That looks to be the highest output of the Sofim 8140.43 2.8L turbo DI engines until they went to a common rail design immediately following.

These are definitely intriguing!

JFKO, any chance you could do a further comparison of the suitability of these pumps for a VW mechanical pump swap?
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Baigly on January 21, 2022, 12:57:52 am
Did anyone happen to archive Hey's original posts with the photos he shared?  I've checked the Wayback machine with no success.  Alternatively, does anyone know of another guide for how to build a mTDI pump?  Many say to "read the forms" but I've yet to find another conclusive source for info aside from Hey.   
Title: Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
Post by: Chuck1978 on March 19, 2022, 05:11:35 pm
Are you looking for info on how to tune an mTDI pump, on how to rebuild a Bosch VE mechanical pump, or are you trying to find info on how to build a direct injection pump out of an older VW indirect injection pump?  If you were asking for the latter, I highly advise against attempting that if you need a step by step writeup to guide you.  The pump itself needs bored out from 17mm to 20mm to take the stronger main shaft that the direct injection pressures require, as well as needing someone who knows advanced tuning and setup on the dynamic timing and governor areas of the pump. 

I can guide you to a decent rebuild tutorial at least, if that is what you are looking for, but I'd highly suggest getting a Land Rover pump from doing a web search using quotation marks around the pump number to find salvage shops selling them for cheap, and then do a proper rebuild or at least disassembly, cleaning, and resealing of the internals, marking the exact positions and settings of everything as you disassemble them...

This is a really good basic guide, although REALLY doing a proper rebuild means putting it on a Bosch test bench to measure the output of each cylinder's injection quantity as well as other calibrations regarding case pressure etc.    If the internal case pressure is still plenty good, the pump most likely only could really need a good cleaning and resealing.  It's nice to get one that was on a good runner and hasn't been sitting on a shelf for years with the lines not really sealed off.  Or one that'sbeen filled with LiquiMoly Diesel Purge on last run, and properly sealed up for storage after removal.

http://contrails.free.fr/engine_bosch_ve_en.php

I saved that webpage as a PDF for future reference.