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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Jetmugg on September 11, 2014, 09:01:03 am
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We managed to bump the 1.5L diesel truck record at the World of Speed in Wendover, Utah.
The existing record was 105.8 mph.
We first raised the record to 130.11 mph with an average of 2 runs.
Later, we made some changes and bumped the record to 135.003 mph over an average of 2 runs (3 miles long each).
THANK YOU for everyone who provided support, technical assistance, and good wishes along the development of this project!!!!!!!
Steve.
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I just returned home - pics and videos will be uploaded a little later.
Steve.
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Thats AWSOME!!!!! I read a rather not so great comment in the VW parts place magazine that featured the last guy who held the record. They Basically said " Someone is trying to beat the record in a dodge rampage, when was the last time you saw one of those!?!?!?!" . Then they went on to say that the current record holder was not worried because he had a few other engines to swap in if his record was ever broken. I should really get a scan of that article up here, it will give you a nice chuckle ;D
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I told you that you would have nothing to worry about. Great job and I am looking forward to the details
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thats great; a diesel will keep on accelerating till it blows its self or the governor kicks in. of course load at that speed; so aerodynamics and things like tires come in.
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Awesome. What was the class or category of this record?
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This was in H/DT class (H is 1.5 liters max, DT is "Diesel Truck"). I know the article you mentioned in parts place. The previous recordholder is a guy named Jesse Winders. I think he was just blowing smoke in the Parts Place deal. I met Jesse on the salt, and he's a super nice guy with a lot of VW knowledge and ideas.
He had his 1.5 mTDI conversion there, but couldn't quite get it running right. However, his team did manage to set a new record in I/DS (1 liter max, Diesel Streamliner) by running what I believe was a 1.6L TD on only 2 cylinders!
Seriously, the Winders team was very friendly. I "showed them mine", and they "showed me theirs" under the hoods of our respective vehicles.
Here's a link to a story that the local news channel did on our effort, including the fact that I let a guy from Utah State University run the Rampage on Biodiesel after setting the record...
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=31487486&nid=148&title=usu-races-vehicle-powered-by-algae-and-safflower-seed-fuel
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Congratulations!!
Now, gather all the data and everything that you learned, crank it to 11 and try to break you own record. repeat until success (or God forbid, something breaks)
Forgive me any grammar/spelling mistakes, english is not my native language
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For you burnt toast sticker collectors... I sent him a limited supply after ohio mile... The idea... Take them for ride over weekend.. If he cracks record.. Worlds fastest toast...
When i sent them, free, i told him i wanted one, he can sell the rest for donations of his additction...
How much is one of yada numbers is one worth... There limited supply... Hit him up, donate to him... Be one of the few who can say they got such a fun little piece of history...
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good stuff
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Great job man!! I have been reading your post from beginning, so glad you finally did it.
I wish I knew you were in STL when I was up there this summer for 2 months so I could have seen it in person and helped out.
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Great news Steve, now it's time to upgrade for next season ;)
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Beat it by 30 MPH, well done!
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I just returned home - pics and videos will be uploaded a little later.
Steve.
I want to see it. Also, I would like to see what the EGT was. The biodiesel guy must not have been giving it the full deal as that was almost 30 mph under what you did. Still cool.
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The first passes were about 1200F on the EGT (in the cooler part of the day) and with a full ice-load in the intercooler tank. That was with a 175 ml/min water injection nozzle installed.
In the heat of the day, I started seeing 1400F+. The ice was pretty much gone from the intercooler tank at that point, and I had no way of getting more ice without leaving the salt flats. At that point, I put a bigger nozzle (225 ml/min) in the Snow system.
I'll have to defer to the video for the rest of the details - my memory is playing tricks on me with respect to the specifics of each run.
Over the winter, I'll pull the head off the engine and inspect for signs of damage / cracks.
Steve.
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Alcaid - I'm already brainstorming a "recipe" for the 2-liter class. I'll be talking with you-know-who in Sweden about upgrading the pump for more fuel, and will be looking for a matched turbo as well. (hint, hint).
Right now, I need to let my credit card recover a bit. It's so smokin' hot, I can barely touch it.
Steve.
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Now that you are a record holder maybe Dieselmaken will sponsor you? I would definitely try to play that card. I also think the small frame he221w would be the ticket. Maybe even something bigger depending on how much Dieselmaken can give you and since spool is of no concern.
Good news is that the truck is made and pretty much done, so most of your expense/work will not have to be repeated.
BTW, here is the manifold I used and it worked out well...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-8V-T25-Cast-Iron-Turbo-Exhaust-Manifold-Golf-Jetta-/380395953632?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58915d9de0&vxp=mtr
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No problem finding he right turbo for whatever engine volume and cc of fuel you put into it, even at a sponsored price even if I don't run a company ;)
Will it be a TDI this time? They give you more hp per cc of fuel and lb of air so i'd go with that
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For your 2.0L attempt I'm assuming you want to keep it running with a VE-style pump?
I'm fairly certain you can drop an ALH head on a 2.0L PD block. You can definitely bore an ALH out to 2.0L (lots of examples on TDIClub) - pistons and everything are readily available. There's even a lower-compression piston option using off the shelf parts.
It would be worth giving Colt Cams a call - I think he's having some issues with his machinery right now but he could definitely make you up a custom cam. He has a whole bunch of lumpy TDI cams already that only a couple of people bit on (most of the TDI owners were scared away from the 'need minor modification to the head for clearance' factor)
If you can keep it all mechanical you'd have an AWESOME engine, plus if you set a land speed record with an M-TDI I'm pretty sure the whole "M-TDI engines suck, they have no power" myth will finally die... ;)
Here's a recipe for a 250+ HP ALH using 2.0L pistons and a 16.8:1 compression ratio:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=323667
There are better nozzle options available than Race 520s (they are at their limit much over 200 HP) and obviously you don't really need a VNT turbo for your application which makes things much simpler...
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i didn't see a dyno slip in there.
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Lucas - that's pretty much the exhaust manifold I'm using now, except with a T3 pattern and a T3-T25 adapter installed.
For the sake of simplicity and cost savings, I think I'll try to stay in the IDI family. That should allow me to use a lot of the parts I already have. Basically, I'm thinking that I'd need a short block, whatever pump work Goran suggests, and a matching turbo. Some porting work on the cylinder head would not hurt matters any.
There are other paths, including non-VW diesel engines, but I'd like to see what I can do without investing big $$$ on a different engine platform.
Using the data I've already generated with my known power to the wheels, known top speed, known frontal area, weight, and an estimate of drag coefficient, I can get pretty close to estimating speed per HP.
In this case, if I can generate 225 HP to the wheels, I should see right at 150 mph on the salt. The current 2 liter record is 129.
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The highest $$$$ single component in your build is the pump - if you are starting over there then you have lots of options.
To save money you could stick with an AHU TDI - you can reuse all the external stuff (water pump, alternator, mounts, etc) though you'd need new injectors and you wouldn't be able to keep using your existing AAZ head (though you could keep using the valves). Even your AAZ cam can be reused if you go that way. You would only be able to build a 1.9L though.
Really the only cost difference between going with an AHU/1Z or an AAZ would be around the injectors - the TDI injectors are quite conservative stock whereas the IDI engines have much cruder basic injectors as they rely on the prechamber for atomization. FINDING a good AAZ will be tough, while 1Z/AHUs are a lot more common. You can sell off all the stock AHU/1Z parts if you get a decent engine to start with - I basically got back the full purchase price of my AHU with all the stock emissions/electronic parts I didn't need for my M-TDI.
What I'm getting at is there is very little difference between an AAZ or an AHU so you won't be saving much by sticking with an AAZ, other than the work that has already been done to your AAZ head.
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I still haven't seen a dyno slip of a TDI making peak power at as high of an rpm as the IDI's. I did like the guy in the thread say what cam plate to use :D
I am looking to see how much a DE143 cam plate is
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Can't congratulate you enough on your accomplishments Jetmugg .
Completely over the top awesome to shatter the record like that, and with our old skool VW power ! !
High Fives and Fist Bumps from all around the forum.
Did you go when it was rained out also - earlier ?
Keep us posted on a next time outing and maybe some of us can carpool or caravan as a support group with additional ice chests for holding more racing supplies.
And canned beverages . lol
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I still haven't seen a dyno slip of a TDI making peak power at as high of an rpm as the IDI's.
Not seen this 392hp (crank) ALH then, pushing all the way to 5800rpm before power rolls off
It did 470hp (crank) with NOS...
Those crazy guys in Finland :P
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/33061401-0FE2-4724-9287-E7EECAD8D523_zps9yulgtz4.jpg)
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I still haven't seen a dyno slip of a TDI making peak power at as high of an rpm as the IDI's.
Not seen this 392hp (crank) ALH then, pushing all the way to 5800rpm before power rolls off
It did 470hp (crank) with NOS...
Those crazy guys in Finland :P
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/33061401-0FE2-4724-9287-E7EECAD8D523_zps9yulgtz4.jpg)
that is the first really impressive slip RPM wise for a TDI I have seen, still it starts to fall off earlier than an IDI would with the same amount of work I am sure. The black line shows it falling around 4300 and the green line starts to level right there as well before climbing a little bit later. Being that it is not a 1/4 mile drag race and a friction drag race it is clear that the higher rpm the peak is without leveling off would be best in theory...unless you have an 18 speed trans to always keep you in the best rpm/power. Again also, the ALH is a completely different engine setup than the 1.5 up to AHU and he really doesn't want to re fab the entire truck he has said.
That said, I don't see an aaz making 392hp at much of any RPM, so the TDI would definitely have a huge power advantage. Maybe the 2.0 short stroke weird deal CRSMP5 had made way back that didn't keep a fiber HG together would work better??? Another question is would this TDI in the chart hold together for the 3 mile course with the follow up 3 mile to confirm?
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Can't congratulate you enough on your accomplishments Jetmugg .
Completely over the top awesome to shatter the record like that, and with our old skool VW power ! !
High Fives and Fist Bumps from all around the forum.
Did you go when it was rained out also - earlier ?
Keep us posted on a next time outing and maybe some of us can carpool or caravan as a support group with additional ice chests for holding more racing supplies.
And canned beverages . lol
Thank you very much. Yes, I did drive to Bonneville for SpeedWeek in August, only to get there, have breakfast, and make the return trip. That was a VERY expensive breakfast, and included about 3,200 miles of driving, hotel rooms, fuel costs, food, etc. OUCH!!!
A caravan style road trip would be fantastic! The more the merrier.
What's really cool about the World of Speed event in September is that it also hosts the VW 36HP Challenge group, which is mostly air-cooled VW land speed racers, but with a good sprinkling of water cooled stuff also. It also has a lot of VW-based media coverage. There's a good chance that my truck will be included in a future issue of Hot VW's magazine.
Steve.
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Black line is torque, see how fast that one normally rolls off on a TDI...
Show me an IDI dyno curve that holds peak hp at a higher RPM ;) BTW, this was actually done with a 12mm pump
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Congrats Jetmugg. Very fun to see.
Any further issues with oil pressure during your runs? I'm eager to see the results when you pull the head.
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The oil pressure was rock solid through the runs. I installed a low oil pressure light (big red light) to warn if pressure dropped below 20 psi.
I was surprised to see the light come on during the coast-down at the far end of the track, however (engine rpm's around 1,000 or less). Right now, I'm attributing that to hot oil temps after running WOT for 3 miles. That's the only time I saw any oil issues. I'm not even convinced that the previous problems were real - more and more I am thinking that there may have been an electrical issue with the OP sender.
Like you, I am quite curious to see what the cylinder head and piston top surfaces look like when I pull the head. I'll be looking closely for cracks between valves, any apparent damage to the pre-cups, and what the tops of the pistons look like. During some of the runs, I believe that I was experiencing compressor surge as well. It's visible in the boost gauge shown in the videos.
I have several GoPro videos that I'm loading and editing on YouTube. There's a lot of extra footage that isn't very interesting or helpful. When I get them trimmed down a bit, I'll post links.
Steve.
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I still haven't seen a dyno slip of a TDI making peak power at as high of an rpm as the IDI's.
Not seen this 392hp (crank) ALH then, pushing all the way to 5800rpm before power rolls off
It did 470hp (crank) with NOS...
Those crazy guys in Finland :P
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/33061401-0FE2-4724-9287-E7EECAD8D523_zps9yulgtz4.jpg)
that is the first really impressive slip RPM wise for a TDI I have seen, still it starts to fall off earlier than an IDI would with the same amount of work I am sure. The black line shows it falling around 4300 and the green line starts to level right there as well before climbing a little bit later. Being that it is not a 1/4 mile drag race and a friction drag race it is clear that the higher rpm the peak is without leveling off would be best in theory...unless you have an 18 speed trans to always keep you in the best rpm/power. Again also, the ALH is a completely different engine setup than the 1.5 up to AHU and he really doesn't want to re fab the entire truck he has said.
That said, I don't see an aaz making 392hp at much of any RPM, so the TDI would definitely have a huge power advantage. Maybe the 2.0 short stroke weird deal CRSMP5 had made way back that didn't keep a fiber HG together would work better??? Another question is would this TDI in the chart hold together for the 3 mile course with the follow up 3 mile to confirm?
200+ HP on a 1.9L TDI is pretty commonplace these days. The PD engines have no issue getting in to the 300-350 HP range with appropriate modifications. The biggest challenge on the older engines is really the computer - there are limits to what you can do with the earlier electronics platform plus the AHU/1Z platform has chips that need to be swapped out in order to make anything happen.
There are only a very few high horsepower AAZs out there that I've seen. I can't really recall seeing anything over about 220 HP on the IDIs but there's tons of TDIs running around there. Remember there's only so much pressure you can build inside the prechamber before you just blow it out of the head!
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There is a 270hp (@ crank) 1.6TD single turbo in Finland, dyno papers exist, VERY laggy setup ;)
I am attempting to break the 300hp (@ crank) boundry this upcoming spring with my 1.6TD compound turbo while still maintaining a decent midrange and response, let's see how that goes, hoping for 270-280whp and a ***load of torque.
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The Finns, Norwegians, and Swedes never fail to impress with diesel power.
I'm keeping an eye on all these developments until I can afford to do something about it.
Currently, I'm exploring the possibility of building a 2-liter diesel based on the VW 9A gasser block and some non-standard pistons. It's plausible, but I'm not yet sure if it's my favorite approach.
Building something like a 250HP 1.6TD for the 2 liter class (actually 1.51 - 2.0 L) would definitely get the job done against the current Bonneville record in G/DT (2 liter diesel truck). Giving up the displacement between 1.6 and 2.0 might not be much of a sacrifice after all!
Steve.
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If any of you Northern Europeans would like to travel to the USA and put your names in the Land Speed Racing record books, feel free to buy a plane ticket for yourself and ship your engine setups over.
We can do a quick engine swap (shouldn't take more than a few hours), and go chase some records.
Steve.
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MJF on here had a 1.6td that he daily drove with a vnt turbo on it making IIRC right around 250hp.
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Lucas:
Do you want to offer an estimate of what the engine in your Jetta is making, HP wise?
Steve.
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Here's a link to GoPro footage of my 135 mph qualifying run.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ppI9AEdvWA&list=UUtJ8BFry5_gAIhYO8EhDbGg
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Looks like you are super stable at speed.
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The Finns, Norwegians, and Swedes never fail to impress with diesel power.
I'm keeping an eye on all these developments until I can afford to do something about it.
Currently, I'm exploring the possibility of building a 2-liter diesel based on the VW 9A gasser block and some non-standard pistons. It's plausible, but I'm not yet sure if it's my favorite approach.
Building something like a 250HP 1.6TD for the 2 liter class (actually 1.51 - 2.0 L) would definitely get the job done against the current Bonneville record in G/DT (2 liter diesel truck). Giving up the displacement between 1.6 and 2.0 might not be much of a sacrifice after all!
Steve.
A 250-HP single turbo AHU or 1Z with a mechanical pump is NOT a hard build at all. No custom parts needed other than the injection pump. Heck you could probably do that on a stock TDI bottom end without too much issue assuming you have a larger turbo - what kills them is low RPM torque, not something that's a huge concern with a large wastegate turbo. An AHU would be better than a 1Z if you want to keep the bottom end stock as the pistons are slightly improved. If you are making a fresh yummy engine then use ASV pistons for stock compression or ASZ/ARL pistons if you want to drop it a little (for high boost). They have a nice big oil cooling gallery inside to keep the piston crowns cool.
The other BIG reason most e-TDIs fall off around 5K is that the stock computer maps don't extend past there. It's apparently quite difficult to expand the RPM range of the computer on those engines. M-TDIs have no such problems.
A 12mm pump head with .341 injectors and a big turbo is about all you'd need. Smoky for sure, but that injection setup can support 300 HP no problem.
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Lucas:
Do you want to offer an estimate of what the engine in your Jetta is making, HP wise?
Steve.
I would love to but I have no idea where to guess. I have called 5 places in ohio that advertise chassis dyno but all said no diesels. If I were to throw out a number I would guess the limit of this pump is where I am at...10mm head and aaz camplate/rotor
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Dang (no diesels on their dynos) ;D
Drag racers get pretty good numbers for HP based on their trap speeds. It would not surprise me even a little if you were on the high side of 200HP.
Meanwhile, daydreaming 2.0L combinations - think about this for a minute...
ABA "tall" block, Ford 1.8L IDI diesel pistons (Ford UK), 9A/ ABA crank, TDI rods.....
On paper it looks like it would all bolt together.
Steve.
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It is weird, I would say you could be correct, but I don't want to throw out the 200 number and when I find a dyno that does it and I have 150hp. I can say it runs good and stays very cool, now that it is 70s out and the boost is 30-35psi I don't see 700f egt...need more fuel.
I think you have a great idea to start a build up of the 2.0...I have always dreamed of the Cumins P pump for the 4b being built for my car, no shortage of fuel there :D
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The HE221W version theman53 is using will be turbime limited at 195-200whp, he is not up there with a 10mm pump clearly indicated by low EGTs (out of fuel)
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Lucas:
Do you want to offer an estimate of what the engine in your Jetta is making, HP wise?
Steve.
I would love to but I have no idea where to guess. I have called 5 places in ohio that advertise chassis dyno but all said no diesels. If I were to throw out a number I would guess the limit of this pump is where I am at...10mm head and aaz camplate/rotor
The reason they say no to diesels is there is no way to get a tach signal. E-TDIs they can get it from the ODB-II port if they are equipped to do so, but the lack of spark plug wires to put an inductive pickup on causes them problems for the most part.
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Speed on the rollers is easily translated in to rpm by wheel circumference and gearbox ratio.
Find a Dynapack hub dyno nearby, they only need those factors to dyno a diesel.
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When I dyno'ed mine, they confirmed my tach readings (driven from W terminal on alternator) with the roller speed via gear ratio and tire size, as Alcaid mentioned.
I wonder if many dyno shops are hesitant to let diesels run due to the fairly large volume of black smoke. Not all dyno facilities are equipped to deal with the black plume....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYikOly9S0&list=UUtJ8BFry5_gAIhYO8EhDbGg
:o
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Just think what you could have ran if you found those head light covers
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The oil pressure was rock solid through the runs. I installed a low oil pressure light (big red light) to warn if pressure dropped below 20 psi.
I was surprised to see the light come on during the coast-down at the far end of the track, however (engine rpm's around 1,000 or less). Right now, I'm attributing that to hot oil temps after running WOT for 3 miles. That's the only time I saw any oil issues. I'm not even convinced that the previous problems were real - more and more I am thinking that there may have been an electrical issue with the OP sender.
the oil pressure light is where you shift light would go right? can also be a place for an oil light, duhh obviously. the low light at decel isnt a problem if your getting the pressure at the head; on mine im at about 12-15psi at hot idle; so under 20psi at decel/idle, hot, at head wouldnt be a problem.(of course im running a lighter oil than you, but still).
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The reason they say no to diesels is there is no way to get a tach signal.
Donning my flame suit...a VW1324 adapter with a tach/dwell might work if a shop would run that.
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A clamp-on piezo adapter will work on pretty much any diesel that doesn't already have ECU tach output.
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arent the ecu tach read from the alternator though?
its not like there isnt anyway to get a tach reading; in a gas you can standard get it reliably from coil/spark; in a diesel the crank is going to be the most accurate. a spark is an extraterrestrial thing for us, so it makes no difference to me/theres no spark/.
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The oil pressure was rock solid through the runs. I installed a low oil pressure light (big red light) to warn if pressure dropped below 20 psi.
I was surprised to see the light come on during the coast-down at the far end of the track, however (engine rpm's around 1,000 or less). Right now, I'm attributing that to hot oil temps after running WOT for 3 miles. That's the only time I saw any oil issues. I'm not even convinced that the previous problems were real - more and more I am thinking that there may have been an electrical issue with the OP sender.
the oil pressure light is where you shift light would go right? can also be a place for an oil light, duhh obviously. the low light at decel isnt a problem if your getting the pressure at the head; on mine im at about 12-15psi at hot idle; so under 20psi at decel/idle, hot, at head wouldnt be a problem.(of course im running a lighter oil than you, but still).
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Yes, the OP light is the big red light next to the tach. If there was going to be a sudden loss of pressure at speed, I wanted to see it RIGHT NOW!
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in a diesel the crank is going to be the most accurate.
The VW1324 adapter reads the engine vibration somehow to give a RPM signal to a tach/dwell meter...if as accurate as the other methods idunno?
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Thanks for the vote of confidence. Yes, the OP light is the big red light next to the tach. If there was going to be a sudden loss of pressure at speed, I wanted to see it RIGHT NOW!
not a bad spot for a Big Red Light; heheh.
so what grade oil did you decide to run; i know amsoil has a few oils; i do believe all are synthetic. from 5w-30 (best oil for normal use), 5w-40, they have a 10w-30 and a 15w-40 syn. iirc. gear oil; and grease for wheel bearings and etc. too.
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watching the whole video, and you say light was set at 20psi, oil pressure gauge looks normal for oil pressure drop from hi-revs to idle. and isnt the oil pressure sender at the head(vw) set at under 3psi? looks fine.
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[/quote]
not a bad spot for a Big Red Light; heheh.
so what grade oil did you decide to run; i know amsoil has a few oils; i do believe all are synthetic. from 5w-30 (best oil for normal use), 5w-40, they have a 10w-30 and a 15w-40 syn. iirc. gear oil; and grease for wheel bearings and etc. too.
[/quote]
One of my sponsors (Bauman Oil - www.baumanoil.com) provided the lubricants for my truck. I am running Mobil 1 15W-50 in the engine.
Mobil 1 synthetic grease in wheel bearings, and Penzoil syncromesh in the transaxle.
Steve.
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get oil warm at the least before a run, its thick and engine will run better; but i do know a cold engine will run faster, but i prefer to run/race my motors at normal heat, more consistant and things are going smoother at normal heat. you need a couple of extra bags of ice for cooling thingie.
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Yep, I try to warm it up without getting the water too hot. Water temps come up before the oil gets hot.
On one of my runs, the water temp hit 240F :o
A bigger radiator may be in my future.
Steve.
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Big kudos to you Steve!!!
An achievement done, and gracefully as well.
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Thank you, Gizmo.
Just for fun, here's one of my favorite photos from the event. Nothing fancy, taken with an iPhone, but I like the image...
(http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Jetmugg/World%20of%20Speed%202014/ChristinaSalt_zps2c79e0ad.jpg)
For anyone interested in hot-rodding, Bonneville is one of those "lifetime" locations that is beyond description.