VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ORCoaster on June 25, 2016, 08:58:31 pm
-
I started out the day trying to find the clank that is coming from one end or the other of the 1.6 N/A engine I have under the hood. Last week I spent the day dropping the oil pan and pump and checking the bottom end clearance with red Plastigauge. All of them squeezed the crap out of it and I came to the conclusion that at 150K miles the engine is barely worn on the bottom end. But it sure sounded like a connecting rod clapping under there.
So today I started with the injectors as I have a second set so I figured put them in and see what comes of that. What came of it is that it is now hard to start and still clanks. I hooked up the electronic device I have that senses when the cylinder fires off and it appeared to clank in time with the timing light flashing on the #4 cylinder.
So I pulled the valve cover ans proceeded to measure up the clearances between cam and cam followers. All were well within spec or just a little wide. 43 instead of 40 for instance. I never found any that would have been too tight thus getting a slap from the Piston.
With it starting hard I figure I need to get the timing tools out and bring it back into normal. Even my wife says that isn't normal. I was having to crank and crank and crank on it. Normally it is right there at the turn of the key once the lights go out on the dash.
So is there something else another has found that produces a heavy clank as you get it up to 15-1600 rpm. Very pronounced hit.
I just ran out of ideas, like I said maybe too much sun on the old bald head today.
-
I was able to get back to the engine today and it seems that the timing was fine. One of the injectors was not set down on the heat shield and I could hear that PFFFFSSSTTT noise on cranking it. So out comes the 27 MM and the torque wrench. Double checked the shield itself for the curve it needs to set up against the bottom of the injector. Still had it so just tightened it down and was good. At least for idle and timing.
Not so good the longer it sat at idle. I think I need to pull it apart. That clank is just too unnerving and I don't desire to mess up a good engine by doing something I don't have to. Which is make it the daily driver.
See what comes of the weekend tear apart. Good holiday project.
-
if it may be a piston, i dont know if a compression test would tell you; or a leak down test. other than that ,, humm.. loose motor mount? or check around for other moving parts, that may be loose
-
Have you tried the UNIVERSAL cure of attaching clear lines to it?
Probably better do that.
-
it would have to be a really bad injector to do that.
-
could it be an exhaust hanger? i ve had some exhaust leaks before, but they were mostly ticks, or louder. check spring clamps @toilet bowl/manifold connection?
-
Thanks for the ideas guys. I did check to see if my clear lines were all bubbly. Sorry not so. So I got that one covered.
I put a breaker bar all over the outside of the engine and plugged my good ear into it. Alternator, water pump, bell housing, intake, exhaust manifold, Had the oil pan down last week with plastigauge, looked up the piston skirts, twisted the connected rods, Cam caps, checked and measured valve clearances at the cam followers. Oh and even listened in on the tensioner pulley and still, that mechanical clank of one pissy piston somewhere. So I am resolved to stripping it down, pulling the head and seeing what the bear going over the mountain will see.
I need X-Ray vision. Or a scope to shove down the injector holes. Does anyone know if the auto parts places loan those out?
That Velostar is looking better all the time.
-
Do you have clear lines coming from the pump (going back to the tank) or between the injectors?
A pissing injector will sometimes push air back into the return line.
-
I once broke a strap off a pressure plate. I was sure that I had spun a rod bearing. It was sooo out of balance.
-
fatmobile, I do have clear lines on the injectors and both sides of the pump. No bubbles there.
tpope, I don't hear so much of a roar or grinding sound like a bearing is out. It is a definite cyclic clank or clack that goes up and down with the RPM's. And at idle is very much tied to either the 1st or 4th cylinder power stroke. I can match the clank with the timing light flash I get from using an optical timing method, a converter for the signal to an electrical impulse that fires off a standard timing light.
No time yet to start breaking down the engine. Dang job and travel anyway.
-
Well I popped the top again.
This is what I saw before doing anything in the way of cleanup.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/Heading%20for%20Trouble/20160702_131059_zpsbnjbr8n5.jpg
The zoom in of the #3 and #2 cylinders. #3 on the right. See anything that might look sorta different? How about that top of the piston imprint and no carbon build up?
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/Heading%20for%20Trouble/20160702_131045_zpssokwfvop.jpg)
And the top of the piston. OOOOOHHHH Swirlies. Nice! But even more curious was the difference between piston protrusion between the two.
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/Heading%20for%20Trouble/20160702_131115_zpsc0nzclul.jpg)
Number 2 was up about .82 mm and #3? Well I almost would say it was down a tad. So, What is that all about?
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/Heading%20for%20Trouble/20160702_131456_zpsgujfitmc.jpg)
I drained the oil, pulled the pan and the pump and what do I spy??? That there is on nut on the piston that is just about to come off. The bottom of the cap is tight but I couldn't tell why. When I dropped the cap I noticed that the top sleeve had come down and was now jammed on top the bottom sleeve that was still in the cap. Sort of a double cram, not cream filling thing going on.
Once I sorted out all the parts back to their proper places the #3 piston came right up where it needed to go.
So I ordered a new head gasket, set of crank sleeves, a new set of head bolts, 12MM and an air filter. Mine was filthy dirty, sooty for some reason.
So I think I am good to go. I will be resetting the valve clearances as I measured those on the #3 cylinder and they are just a tad off from spec. I also am dropping down a notch on the head gasket. It is just a bit over the line for a 1 notch and with valves striking pistons I didn't want to take a chance.
And the reason the valves hit is due to the lack of skill on the machinist doing the work I asked for years ago. He had them so bad off initially I couldn't turn it over by hand when I put it back together. I ended up having to reshim the entire head. Thankfully there was a VW mechanic in town at the time and I could buy shims that worked.
End of Story? Maybe, but then it is a VW.
-
exactly what we didnt want it to be,, (a 'bit' different of a problem tho). good thing you took your own advice and stopped before it got worse(to say a little). crank is still ok?
you can see valves in piston, possible one or more were open one of the times they made that impression.
-
Replace the two valves.
-
besides replacing the two valves on cyl #3, also take a look at the crack in the head of cyl #3 just at the perimeter of the pre-cup at the 6:30 position...it's small, but to me this looks unfortunately like a candidate for a dropped insert. I'd hate to see a serviceable bottom end and maybe the block itself taken out by a dropped insert. YMMV
-
Good eye on that one Rock3tman, I stopped at the auto parts place to try and obtain some Hylomar gasket maker and no way. So I ended up with the
Copper Spray. Do you use that stuff? I was thinking I needed to spray all surfaces and not just the head gasket itself.
Spray it lightly to get a feather coat on it then thicken it up a bit with a second coat that won't run or streak on the gasket it self.
-
Permatex losts its rights to call Hylomar Hylomar.
Its was repackaged, and is the same exact stuff.
I use it all the time rebuilding rotaries.
Permatex 85420
Available mostly anywhere.
-
I had good results with the copper stuff. I was even able to reuse a head gasket and get it to seal. Didn't put many miles/hours on that engine but there were no immediate signs of any leakage.
-
Is it blue ink, yet? Should we send some sandpaper?
-
Funny Guy?!
Actually I have yet to fire it up. With my schedule only allowing me Sunday Afternoon on the engine I was able to get it all back together and roll it over several times with the ratchet wrench on the crank nut. Once I determined all is well there, I dropped down in HG thickness and was worried, I pulled out the jumper cables and hit the started enough times to notice nice whitish smoke out the exhaust ports. I still need to put the manifolds on and prime the injector lines but I am hopeful all is going to be OK.
My fall back to the diesel was going to be an electric conversion. I found a super deal on a motor and controller and such only to go back to it the next day and see the ad removed. Someone local must have run across town with 500 cash and snagged it. The combo was worth 3K otherwise.
Always the thinker/tinkerer.