VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Luckypabst on April 01, 2008, 11:43:08 pm
-
I'm starting this thread as an information dump for the upgrades that I'm currently making to my van. I gotta get some of this out of my head before it all fizzles away...
I guess the first post can be the "baseline" and background.
The general specs are:
'82 diesel Westy
Quantum-spec TD engine, VW rebuild with about 40k on it.
Quantum K24 turbo
NA Vanagon injector pump
Air-cooled tranny
New stock size tires
Inaccurate speedometer
Mileage currently 27-28mpg (was consistently 30mpg before a new IP)
Cool running at all times, even climbing the 9% grade out of Death Valley, mid-afternoon in July with air temps near 130
The van has always run wonderfully with no real issues. Always started right up, even below freezing. It's just forever been gutless and a reliable reason to be late for anything.
Beginning boost maxed out around 6.5psi, climbing a pretty moderate hill here at about 4000' elevation. Little to no smoke.
What started this whole process was my quest to correct the turbo oil return line that I pinched nearly complely flat about two years ago while playing in some rocks. My super scientific "blow test" revealed that with a little pressure, it would flow OK but the teflon liner was visibly pinched shut inside. With a public outcry for help, it was pointed out that my turbo was considered "large" for the application and I might see improved driveability with the smaller K14.
What I began with:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/DSC04652-1.jpg)
Chris
-
Phase one was to correct the oil return problem.
Power upgrade = 0
Peace of mind upgrade = 999
You can see from the previous picture that in addition to the pinched return line, the drain goes down then back up into the pan at about 35 degrees. My fix was to cap off the old AN-8 male fitting and add a 1/2" NPT bung that enters the pan horizontally, canted slightly toward the turbo drain. Threaded into this is a AN-8 fitting with braided hose running up to the turbo drain.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P3210157.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P3210159.jpg)
No installed pics yet since the K14 is not in and the plumbing is temporarily run to the old, bad return fitting.
While I was in the pan, I found a crispy blob glued to an inside corner. I picked it out and tossed it aside, noticing later that it was a poor attempt at fixing a crack. Properly repaired:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P3210161.jpg)
Also pertinent to the oil return is the fitting at the turbo. I found a M16 to AN-8 adapter that fit perfectly, but I did have to shorten it a bit. These are designed to seal to a tapered seat but the turbo uses crush washers instead. I ended up grinding off the length of the existing taper and quickly running a countersink inside to aid in oil drainage. Even with the turbo clocked to 45 degrees, there dosen't appear to be anywhere for oil to pool inside. There's a M12 to AN-4 oil supply fitting there to show what the original female taper looked like on the metric side:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/IMG_3810.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/IMG_3812.jpg)
-
Keep em coming... I loves me a build thread by a craftsman machinist, with welding and tapping and fabbing and everything !!
-
Phase 3 - Increasing the smoke/LDA install
I did this on Sunday and finally took it for a spin today.
Boost pressure - 8psi, up the same hill, nearly maxed out in 3rd gear with lots of smoke.
This was pretty straightforward. Good thing for this site, otherwise I would not have known about the NA pump stop pin. Even the old "turbo" pump that was on the van (van pump body with LDA cover) still had the stop pin in place so I guess it really wasn't doing much more than what the regular NA pump was capable of. Getting the stop pin out of the way was the hardest part. My plan of grinding a C-clamp foot to fit down between the pin and gov. plunger didn't work out, even with copious amounts of heat. I ended up yanking the pump and tapping the pin out with a drift punch, with no heat. It coulda been done with the pump installed but by then I'd got enough dust and whatnot in the pump to warrant a quick flush anyhow. I'm getting rather proficient at R&Ring injector pumps these days.
One thing I did was tap the pin almost far enough to clear the lever, added a drop of permatex sleeve retainer, then tapped it a bit further to help keep the pin secure.
Nothing new here:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/IMG_3807.jpg)
As I said - boost topped out around 8 psi with plenty of smoke. I think I'm limited now by a lousy wastegate, possibly the scrawny 1-3/4" exhaust. I was climbing that same hill at maybe 55 mph in 3rd, getting near the top of the "safe" rpm range - I think boost should have been closer to 10psi at this point, as I keep reading that the stock limit is somewhere around .7 bar.
There was a definite improvement in power! Struggling up in 2nd became sailing up in 3rd. I do need to play with the pump some to bring the smoke down a bit but I want to get the boost up a bit more first. Hopefully the new exhaust and turbo will fix that.
Also worth noting - based on my preliminary eyeballometer measurement, it looks like the aneroid pin (#27) allows the highest fueling with the dimple set 180 degrees from the pump sprocket. This was verified by my butt dyno, compared to the stock "notch" position and the suggested "180 from notch". Pin profile does not change as it's rotated, just the offset from center changes.
Anyhow, I was so happy I had to install a new sticker:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/IMG_3808.jpg)
Some other pictures, just for fun -
Cheapy ebay gauge pod, trimmed for a tight fit to the van dash, over the ashtray, while keeping the gauges generally level. Banana does double duty as a variable height Jo block for those highly accurate angle setups:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/IMG_3809.jpg)
Performance exhaust kit:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P3240183.jpg)
The exhaust hangers should be here tomorrow and I have preliminary girlfriend permission to work on the van again on Thursday. Hopefully there'll be a progress report that night.
Chris
-
Very exciting. I remember reading when yo first discovered the issues with the drain line. Nice progress
-
Keep em coming... I loves me a build thread by a craftsman machinist, with welding and tapping and fabbing and everything !!
I wish I could express the frustrations of being a machinist and welder, reduced to welding halfway out the backdoor of my rental because the dryer cord is so short, in fear of burning down the yard; having to drive 225 miles to visit my TIG machine; not having a machine shop within 60 miles when I'm accustomed to working in one; not even able to find a freakin' bead blasting cabinet in town!!!!
I guess I learned my lesson on wanting to live in a small town! But I can't handle the jungle again either. Can we start a fund to buy our own town with all the amenities necessary to be a happy gearhead, without the standard frustrations of life in the big city? A fab shop on every corner with a good parts store in between would be a start...
Chris
-
Don't get me started on the all-weather workspace, paved in pea-gravel and dead grass...
-
Can we start a fund to buy our own town with all the amenities necessary to be a happy gearhead, without the standard frustrations of life in the big city?
I'll move in :D
-
Yea, straight out the back for now. If it proves to be too much I'll kink it around to the passenger side through a muffler of some sort. Those mandrel bends are cheap at ATP!!
Chris
-
Great work! Thanks for the pics and info. You inspire.
-
Good choice on the k14, it's night and day, I've built this exactly platform from scratch and I can say it's way better.
Also, for those on the hunt for drain line parts in the future, the fittings are technically called "DIN" which stands for Deutsch Industrial Norm, the parts houses wont have a freaking clue what it is if you don't know this. Also there's a great site http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=din&Search.x=0&Search.y=0
that can hook you up with pretty much any din fitting you need.
One more thing, if you haven't purchased tires yet, Hankook makes a great appropriately rated bus tire. It's called the RA08. Any warehouse tire can order them for you. FYI Hankook is an OE supplier for VW and Mercedes truck in europe.
-
One more thing, if you haven't purchased tires yet, Hankook makes a great appropriately rated bus tire. It's called the RA08. Any warehouse tire can order them for you. FYI Hankook is an OE supplier for VW and Mercedes truck in europe.
That's what I slapped on just before Christmas, based on the rave reviews across the 'net. I'm very happy with them, not much change over the Jupiters they replaced, only more tread. Price was right, they're rated correct and are held in high regards - good enough for me.
The Bilsteins I just put on made a marked improvement in control, especially puttering around off road. Little improvement in severe washboard though - not much you can do about that, however...
Chris
-
OOOO I have some good news today! The girlfriend called ahead and approved a little wrenching time this afternoon.
But before the good news -
Brown Santa brought some fun stuff from TurboCity - I had them clean and balance the turbine and clean the compressor housing. But geez man, now I feel like I need to take this to the next level and fully restore the van to keep up with the work they did on the comp. housing:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4020280.jpg)
Leading up to the good news:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4020276.jpg)
I was kinda rushed, it'll be cleaned when I drop the exhaust to swap turbos:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4020278.jpg)
Already, I've shinned the pipe here. It'll get shortened before too long:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4020277.jpg)
So the good news - $80 in 2-1/4" stainless exhaust bits nets 4psi increase in boost for a grand total of 12psi with smoke to spare. It sounds pretty good, not obnoxiously loud so I'll leave it as is for a while.
I guess the wastegate is working well. After hovering at 12psi briefly, it dumps to about 7psi, then quickly builds back to 12.
Still burning oil though - I hope I fried the seal ring in the turbo with the kinked return hose and not something else. No burned oil on decel, just under hard boost.
Tomorrow I might spend some time adding tension to the LDA spring to bring the smoke down some. I wish the EGT was hooked up, but not til I can drop the exhaust manifold.
Over on "scientific test hill" where I was gritting teeth and sweating balls to hold 25-30mph I was cruising and grinning happily along closer to 50.
Chris
-
That's kinda the afterthought I was having - being the BOV instead of wastegate. I do plan to plug the BOV but I don't really want more boost than what I'm getting now for fear of headgasket issues.
Chris
-
Over on "scientific test hill" where I was gritting teeth and sweating balls to hold 25-30mph I was cruising and grinning happily along closer to 50.
That is a very nice improvement. Makes it all worth while eh?
-
I'd be very careful running around in a vanagon that's smoking with no EGT.
don't ask how I know that :evil:
I'd recommend running the fuel screw out til it doesn't smoke at all.
-
That's the plan for today. I think the main fuel screw is close to good, little smoke until on boost. I'm gonna start by turning the boost pin back to the stock spot, then begin adding tension to the spring to bring fueling down a bit.
Chris
-
Today -
Changed the valve cover gasket and did some general spring cleaning around the engine block.
Then I turned in the screw on the BOV, somewhat haphazardly but it's tighter than it was.
After that I spun the boost pin back to the stock "notch" position (from facing "toward tranny") and took the van up the test hill, then down the highway for a few miles.
Simply turning the pin back eliminated most all of the excess smoke (no fun!), caused the turbo to spool slower and only max out at 12 psi - no boost dumping this time - with a slightly noticeable loss in power.
On the highway was nice, much easier to reach and hold 60-65 with pedal left over. I guess there's no more "put a brick on it" cruise control, driving at all times with my foot to the floor. Now I have to actually hold the pedal position that maintains my chosen speed, no more letting the van choose the speed to fit the situation.
60mph cruise gives about 4psi boost. The boost lag on the K24 is very noticeable as it won't really build any power until late in 4th gear. For now, 3rd gear is the "fun" gear. I think the K14 will be icing on the cake for acceleration in the 50-60mph range, just off the shift into 4th.
Once the EGT gauge is in I'll play with the boost pin some but for now all is good.
Chris
-
Dunno if this is of any interest?
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25615
-
Nice kit there, Brick-Yard. Can you elaborate some on the LDA cover in the pictures?
Not much to report over here. Some of you might have caught my plea for help on finding a replacement "spacer sleeve" - NLA from Borg Warner. My brain has been mashed potatoes since then and recovering slowly to the point that I might be able to start solving this newest problem. Oh well - weather is fantastic here and I can't wait for our trees to start throwing out apples and peaches.
Most notable progress was getting the EGT thermocouple installed the other day. It's untested due to some issues related to removing the existing turbo from the manifold. I think I'll dive back in tomorrow to see what else I can bugger up.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4100286.jpg)
Rant - why offer a rebuild kit when you can't get even the simplest details correct? Luckily I was able to find enough of the original snap rings for this to not really matter. I now seriously question the quality of the rest of the kit. I guess time will tell...
I have yet to be pleased with this particular vendor.Pictured is the new snap ring under the stock one:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4080279.jpg)
Chris
-
LDA cover is one of those pumps with no LDA guts inside, they ain't even drilled internally.
You would have thought that they would have put a NA type pump top on rather than go to the effort of having a upright LDA but not give it any guts, weird.
It came from a Seat Toledo as far as I know as I chiselled off the Seat badge from the rocker cover.
You lot get Seats? pronounced "sey-at"
One of these munters, bit of a parts bit special, loads of MKII and III Golf parts, 6N polo parts and the like.
(http://www.volkswagenspares.com/UserFiles/Image/SEAT%20TOLEDO%20RED1%20(Custom)%20(2).JPG)
-
We arnt allowed Seats over here. We arnt allowed a lot of fuel efficient diesel powered vehicles here because the oil companies and their cronies in the auto industry and government wont allow it.
-
We arnt allowed Seats over here. We arnt allowed a lot of fuel efficient diesel powered vehicles here because the oil companies and their cronies in the auto industry and government wont allow it.
amen brother!
-
Real quick this morning I got the gauges wired/plumbed/prelim. mounted. I still need to figure out a spring-clip system to hold the pod to the dash and come up with a can of "VW dashboard brown" spraypaint.
This system works well but it makes me think of a wart when I look at it. I would have rather mounted the gauges in individual cups, hanging off the Sirius bracket but the cups cost a grip compared to this $5 pod thingy. A little quality time with a pair of dikes and some sandpaper and the thing fits the dash angle nicely. But now I've lost my dash-mounted crap catcher...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4130276.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4130277.jpg)
Hmm - from that angle, the Sirius bracket looks like Johnny 5 from Short Circuit.
Please excuse the dirt!
Chris
-
looks great man!
makes me miss my td bus :cry:
-
Jonny 5 is alive. That is some funny stuff man. My wife would def appriciate the Dead playing as well :D
-
...Let it Shine, Let it Shine, Let it...
-
This isn't really an update, just an open thanks to Alamo Turbocharger in Kent, WA. Their guy Jesse went beyond the call of duty to track down the part I lost for my K14, calling Germany to get things straight.
The good news is that it's only $1.26 from the manufacturer. Bad news is that it's not a stocked item and only built to order. I assume they won't knock out a single piece so I didn't ask. But it is available in a "small parts" kit that should be on it's way here as we speak. They also can get the real German bearing and seal kit from the OEM but it's about a 2 week wait from Germany. I opted to see how well the Chinese bearings hold up...
Um, apparently I'm the very first person from the USA to contact the manufacturer for that little spacer sleeve. I suppose I should be proud to be the first at something.
Maybe I'll be back to terrorizing the mean streets of Lone Pine by early next week
Chris
-
How do you remove the old dip stick tube to replace it with the one from the westy.
I've tried turning and wiggling but don't want to break it off in the block.
:D Thanks
-
We find that 25mm of 8mm steel tube dropped into the BOV in place of the spring works wonders.
8)
-
Hi all, :D
first time post, been lurking in the shadows for 12 months researching aaz & 1z stuff when I found this thread. I registered so I could post and say:
CHRIS, sort that exhaust out ASAP: :shock: with the end of that down pipe not properly attached it allows sideways movement which could rip your turbo apart.
Ask me how I know?
I ran my 1.6td syncro bus (read Vanagon) with the same setup, until 5 days ago when the downpipe sheared 2 studs off the turbo then promptly levered the turbo until something cracked and dropped oil and water everywhere. I write this post whilst my Syncro stands on the drive, looking at me with a tear in her eye (headlamp?), cos her engine is dead :(
By the way, apart from the above, keep up the good work :)
-
How do you mean? Plans are to brace the turbo to the block, similar to the JX engine. Right now the K24 is solidly mounted to the block via Quantum method. Otherwise I have one more rubber mount to support the exhaust pipe but I wanted to get it squared away otherwise.
Chris
-
Hi Chris,
Don't want to send this thread off on a tangent so I'll PM you about it.
-
Alamo came through and got the correct kit to me. Now maybe I'll be up and running by this weekend.
New thrust surfaces and spacer - it's the little guy that I lost:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4300281.jpg)
-
Compressor inlet adapter - takes the small K14 inlet up to the K24 size to fit my existing intake bonnet. This will be changed in the next phase of upgrades:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4300283.jpg)
Complete:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4300284.jpg)
Pretty much together:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P5010286.jpg)
Installed:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P5010287.jpg)
I took a quick run, about a mile down the highway to fill up a low tire then back home.
Initial results:
Boost maxes out at just over 10psi. Wastegate is lapped clean, spring preload screw backed out all the way. Hopefully I can dial in another 2psi with the screw and not need a boost controller.
EGT was about 400 at idle and cruise, climbed to 1200 before I backed out, on flat ground at 10psi. I need to spend a few hours tinkering with the fueling and boost to find a good balance between heat and driveability.
Overall feel is very nice. I think the van's been down too long and I've become accustomed to the powerband of my work car and my rocketCaddy. I can't wait to get some seat time in with the new setup.
Chris
-
Dial-a-boost worked for another 2 psi - now I'm at 12 psi total which was my original goal to keep combustion pressure reasonable. This seemed to help with EGT a little as well, I saw 1100 degrees on my quick cruise around town.
Now with a full (not quite) 4 miles of test time, I'm gonna make a run over the hill into Panamint Valley for a night or two. Fuel is better than $5 over that way, I'm sure my half tank will get me there and back.
On a wing and a prayer!
Chris
-
We got there just fine with little issue.
Right off, the wastegate malfunctioned and I was bouncing off the BOV at about 13.5 psi - this is not fun and requires that you drive by the boost gauge to keep from dumping boost. I'm thinking maybe my several minutes of cold-enging testing on flat ground wasn't enough work to see full boost. Or something like that. I need to spin the WG screw a little bit to get it right.
EGT stayed good the whole time, even on the long climb over the mountains. I was seeing 1200 degrees if I pushed it hard, 1000 degrees more consistently. I wonder if a cold engine has potential for higher EGT for the increased amount of unburned fuel?
Holding 60 in a light head wind made a steady 10 psi boost - I was expecting less but the engine was working a bit. I was able to hold 4th gear probably for 80% of the sections that previously required 3rd, staying between 50 and 55 mph instead of 40 - 45 mph.
EGT gauge was acting foolish. Apparently those things are very sensitive (amplified Autometer with Isspro thermocouple). The simple ground path is this: shared ground with gauge pilot lights, then shared with stereo head unit. I found out that flipping the high beams, stepping on the brakes or using the stereo caused the gauge to drop to zero and usually hang there. Turning the stereo up to the right spot caused the gauge needle to bounce with the subwoofer (oooo - dual purpose gauge!). So apparently this thing needs a dedicated ground and the notoriously poor VW electric system might need a little freshening up.
Chris
-
Yea, the foot-based boost control isn't too bad. I'd still rather not have to think about it, tomorrow I'll tweak it a little more and see what happens. I'd also like to de-tension the LDA spring a bit - boost comes on slow to about 5psi then builds pretty fast after that.
My last thought for today - the intake is pretty noisy now, sounds like a hammer as described in a different post. Air filter is a scabbed Honda thing with an exposed filter element, so I'd expect it to be loud. I just don't think swapping turbos would change the noise. I think that the noise is from crankcase pulsing through the breather tube - I unplugged the vent hose as part of the swap - that's my theory at least.
Chris
-
Hmm - I don't hear the intake noise any more, now it's back to the way it was. Maybe I'll take a look at things tomorrow but I kinda like how it is.
The van ran great over the weekend but just didn't feel like it had the oomph I was expecting and I was suspicious about the accelerator cable (I think I may have the wrong bracket at the IP, but that's a different puzzle). Today I got under there and adjusted things so I can actually hit the full throttle stop and now it's a rocket ship! A heavy, brick-like, marginally powered rocket ship but it's far far better than before all this work. It's a pleasure to drive and I can see all the clenched teeth two-lane roads being a thing of the past.
I should now turn the fuel down a touch but I might run through a tank of fuel to see what the mileage is how it stands. It does want to throw off some heat climbing hills so I gotta watch things but EGTs seemed under control on level highway. This has lit a fire under my butt to install the intercooler - as soon as I have this group of upgrades ironed out and finalized.
I wonder how it'll run if I ever get around to adjusting the valves...
Chris
-
Oh - I was able to consistently, reliably hold 11.5-12 psi by adjusting the wastegate spring preload. I wonder if lapping the valve helped with the accuracy of that adjustment? BOV hits at about 13.5 psi so I think I'll leave things as-is for now.
Chris
-
A little rambling update:
On the EGT gauge catching interference from other electric items - I've run the ground across to the ground bus on the left A-pillar, behind the dash and taken power through a relay to the big wire that used to supply power to the camper goodies. All the connections at the ground bus and the two ground buses themselves have been cleaned to insure good contact. Ground straps have been removed and cleaned back at the engine, power wires at the battery have been removed and cleaned. About all this has accomplished is reduced needle flutter caused by the radio. Brake lights and headlights still send the needle to zero, sometims a quick blip, sometimes hanging at zero until I turn off the ofensive electical load. Upcoming headlight relays might help somewhat but otherwise I'm baffled.
I've installed a boost controller - the "Xcliber" off of ebay. Was pretty easy to bump up to 14 then 15 psi. 14 psi helped a bit with EGT but I think I need to tinker with fueling a bit at this point. 15 psi made little noticable change in EGT so I guess now is when I need the intercooler.
How can I get the boost on sooner? It comes on slow to about 5psi then builds quick to 15psi. I de-tensioned the LDA spring one turn (from an unknown previous setting) and I do have a little smoke under acceleration. Most annoying is shifting into 4th, especially on a moderately steep climb (it does alright on the highway, out on the valley floor). I'll be topped out in 3rd, shift to 4th and can't get much past 10psi before EGTs are beginning to worry me. Maybe this is something I'll have to live with, being a combination of rpms too low for the grade vs. availabe power? I shouldn't complain - it's like 1000x better than it was but it just seems like it wants to keep pulling past what I feel comforable with in 3rd. Is the 3-4 gearing jump just too much for accelerating uphill?
I have the intercooler mount fingered out, in the left taillight cavity. A TDi intake would help with plumbing, maybe even an IDI jetta intake would work too - I need to look into that a bit. Plumbing to the compressor should be straight-forward. The air cleaner issue is the real hang-up right now.
Turbo brace is mostly done. It's similar to the JX brace but will bolt to the bellhousing bolt down in that area rather than forward to the cast-in bosses behind the engine mount. My camera has been taken hostage for the week so no pictures to share at the moment.
Chris
-
Thanks Andrew - that's what I needed to hear so I can stop chasing my tail about things. I need to not only run up the hill toward Mt. Whitney for my tests and actually take a trip or something to enjoy my van again.
I never thougt to check the actual voltage up front. I guess I just assumed it was less than ideal due to the long run and poor connections. The alternator is about 6 months old, of course that dosen't rule anything out without a proper test.
Chris
-
I took it on it's first real "long" run, about 20 miles down the hwy to the next mentionable town, then about 5 miles up a dirt road to the local burro sanctuary. There's certainly no more free cruise control - hold it to the floor and let the van find it's own happy place - now I'm at about half throttle running 65 mph, 8 psi boost and maybe 600 - 900 degrees on the exhaust. 1200 degrees is about the most it makes on the highway as well. I guess at this point, I have the van that I want and now I need to build some confidence in all the new stuff while working out any bugs and finishing up some reliability mods.
My next question - With the intercooler mounted in the taillight cavity, mostly insulated from the engine compartment and having good flow-through ventilation, is an electric fan going to give much improvement? Anyone see any negatives to mounting the air intake up above the intercooler in a shared airspace?
Progress on one of the next stages of improvement:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P5290001.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P5290005.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P5290006.jpg)
The rear bracket is just right, the front plate is just wrong. Apparently I had some troubles reading my own drawings plus making the piece 250 miles from the van made it hard to test fit. I guess I need to retire the old "scribbleCAD" that I've been using.
Chris
-
Yea - the floor will be cut out but for now it's where my current air filter sits. I'm not terribly concerned about rocks being thrown up there but it wouldn't be hard to build some type of guard underneath.
I don't intend to put the air cleaner back in that side but I'm grasping at ideas to not complicate the intake piping.
Chris
-
That intercooler set up is basically how I did mine a few years back, but I did use a motorbike radiator fan above the cooler and had it wires to ignition live, the fan did make a big difference to how the van ran.
That was 1.6TD, JX with GTD nozzles, oil cooler and a fan assisted intercooler.
It was a nippy bus!
I cut the bottom of the tail light box out, then added a ally shield to keep the much and stones away, also had it ventedto the rear in an attempt to get the use of the negative pressure behind the van to "draw" air accorss the cooler at higher speeds.
My reckoning was that the vent in the pillar was running possitive pressure, and the back of the van negative, so it shoul flow on it's own, but the fan did help, lots.
-
This bus...
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/home/nato02.jpg)
Click (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3649&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=stealth&start=0)
8)
-
We're on the same page there, Brick-Yard - trying to improve on the flow-through with a rear facing shroud/rock guard. That's just low priority for now but should be an easy upgrade when the time comes.
Good to hear on the fan. There's plenty of room and small fans are easy enough to come by. I'd like to run some IAT tests to see what kind of improvements come from the intercooler and a fan assisted intercooler, mainly so I can justify buying the cool data logger program and make neat graphs to display my results.
Chris
-
mainly so I can justify buying the cool data logger program and make neat graphs to display my results.
(sound of ears pricking up) got one in mind ??!!
-
VGauge-Remote http://www.chetcodigital.com/vGauge/vGauge_Remote.htm
That's the one I'm looking at - $400 and interfaces to a PC or PDA. Something like 16 functions, 3 tach, 2 EGT, various other temp and pressure monitors.
Chris
-
No update here - ok well I did remake the intercooler mount but have yet to do the final fitting.
Glow plugs - troubleshooting is done and at least 3 are bad. It seemed to recently start poorly, out of the blue. I can't imagine that all 4 would crap out at once, will these things start easy on only one or two functioning plugs? Maybe the 3rd plug died and that was over the line? Happily, it still starts with little drama, just cranks a touch longer and runs rough right off until I tap the pedal.
It has Bosch fast plugs with about 40k on them.
The temp sensor for the GP relay never functioned, likewise I never got around to correcting things. Would this cause a shortened GP life? I can't find any definitive information concerning the sensor in my searches. I'll be on the phone with Napa tomorrow - camping at 8k' in Mammoth for the weekend...
I finally checked voltage - all is good out back, 12.75 at the battery, 14.00 with the alternator on. I lose about 0.3 volts up front, headlights bring that down another full volt, brake lights suck another 0.3 volts. I think putting in the headlight relays will make a big difference in the EGT gauge flutter.
Chris
-
That's what I was thinking too. Would it not also trigger the dash light though? How else would I know, short of rigging a test light to one of the glow plugs?
Chris
-
The dash light is actually pretty much completely unrelated to actual power to the glow plugs, so a permanent test light on the glow plugs is a really really really good idea.
All kinds of wonky glow plug system behavior will be immediately obvious that might leave you stranded some fine day. For example, put the light downstream of the fuse and a blown fuse will never catch you by surprise ever again.
My light did in fact alert me to a relay that was coming on (and staying on) all by itself and would have burned out plugs *and* drained my battery... during a cold winter day.
Anyone with a PDA-compatible data acq system gots to have a glow plug LED as well !!
-
Anyone with a PDA-compatible data acq system gots to have a glow plug LED as well !!
I dunno - another idiot light might cross the line of "too high-tech"!
Chris
-
For those that were keeping score - I had one remaining, functioning glow plug (yes, it was the most difficult one to get at). It happened to be the last one I removed and the only one that came out clean, not covered in soot. Resistance measured 0.6 ohms on this one, open circuit on the rest.
Even with one glow plug the van was not hard to start - it just took another fraction of a second longer on the starter and ran noticeably rougher until given a little throttle.
Replacement wires have been made up to eliminate the buss bar.
I'm also thinking about re-routing the circuit for the dash light straight to the glow plugs so it's on whenever the plugs have juice.
Chris
-
Temp sensor did the trick - before, I had a 15 second pre-glow regardless of engine or ambient temperature. Now it's less than 5 seconds with the engine cold in warm air, no glow with a warm engine and maybe 12 - 15 seconds on a cold morning. This is the first time since owning the van that the pre-glow system has worked even remotely correct.
We just got back from about 300 miles of highway, backroads and dirt roads. The Westy is much more enjoyable all around, though hills still kicked my butt and the hellacious side/headwind on Friday made for serious teethclenching. Sherwin Grade out of Bishop had me in 2nd at 25, nearing the 7000' summit which is how it was last time I climbed that hill before these upgrades, but this time there was a good 30mph headwind coming down the hill as well. Anyhow, it seems like it wants to keep pulling but I end up limited by EGTs (still not comfortable crossing the 1200 degree point). Now that I'm feeling confident in the current configuration, I can focus on the intercooler and finishing the exhaust brace.
MPG was a lame 25.66 - I think the grade and headwinds had a lot to do with it. After the return trip, I'm at 140 miles on a quarter tank so things are looking up in those regards. This thing would make 30 mpg religiously in the first year that I owned it, before installing a new IP.
I also had some odd boost issues - before the trip I had a solid, consistent 15psi. Almost immediately, I noticed boost limited to 14psi with some strange needle dance and drop at 14 (BOV is tight with a much heavier spring). A little tinkering with the boost controller had me back to 15, then some time later peaking at about 17 psi. I'm wondering if the boost controller was acting up - spring settling or junk in the ball seat or something...
OH! It was a wonderful trip - we got to see a few new sights, ramble around some ATV roads and soak in a couple of - new to us - hot springs.
Chris
-
Do you think your boost pressure foibles were down to altitude?
If I kick the absolute sh!t out of my T3 Westy Atlantic, unladen, running locally I get 27mpg, thats a bog standard 1.6TD "JX" engine with a oil cooler.
I dunno, but I think US gallons are different to US gallons.
UK Gallon = 4.54 litres.
-
Do you think your boost pressure foibles were down to altitude?
Nah - I noticed it first down here at 4000' and it was acting up clear to 8000'. All seems OK now, still a little higher that I'm comfortable with but not a nuisance by any means.
I'm pulling my hair out with the EGT electrical issues. Today I got the headlights taken off the main power supply, now it's routed through 8ga wire to the camper battery, then to 10ga wire through dual 30 amp circuit breakers to 70 amp relays into the OG 14ga wires. And now the needle flutter seems worse, even affected by the turn signals after all this work. I eliminated the camper battery briefly (it's known to be weak but works for interior lights and the radio) but that didn't help. The only other thing to note is the large OG wire that powers the fuse panel (and a couple other wires, too) overheated at some point before I owned the thing and the plastic insulators that are over the spade connectors have melted, mostly off, somewhat to the connectors. I cleaned up the main power wire and things looked OK otherwise. I wonder if the overheating situation has permanently damaged the power wire somehow but only shows up now in the very sensitive EGT gauge?
VW must have been having a wire shortage back in '81 - that fuse panel does not drop out very easily. If I actually had a wiring diagram I could remove the fuse panel and give it a proper once over.
All the recent talk of upgrading the early-style to late-style radiator musta put some bad juju on mine. Now the little drip that I decided to ignore some time ago has become nearly half a gallon of lost coolant on the last 300-ish mile trip. Looks like there might be a bad solder connection near the lower hose nipple - nothing a radiator shop can't handle and I'll have it properly cleaned at the same time. It certainly does run a bit hotter now with the added power so this will be good measure at the right time.
Chris
-
My pyrometer is rather erratic too. I talked to Autometer about this and they said that due to the length of wire from the probe to the gauge that interference is very possible.
If it makes you feel any better, the ground wire for the pyrometer on my van is held in by the tension of the lower steering column cover complemented with a bare wire :p no problem until I turn on the HIDs.
-
If you're ever thinking of upgrading the radiator to the newer aluminum style let me know. I just finished replacing my 1982 diesel's radiator, cooling pipes, coolant tank, and resevior tank.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3046986#3046986
-
I know this is OT but that is an AWESOME username!
-
My pyrometer is rather erratic too. I talked to Autometer about this and they said that due to the length of wire from the probe to the gauge that interference is very possible.
That's not very promising. I think I'll call Autometer tomorrow to see if I can get a different diagnosis. I'll call my auto electric buddy too, he needs his cage rattled every now and again anyway.
Running a ground direct to the battery helped a bunch but it's still not good. I'm afraid that I'll have to keep switching my lights off at night to get an accurate gauge reading.
Taking the headlights off the main power wire now causes about .3v drop at the fuse panel, on top of about .3v nominal drop with just the engine running.
I need my parts to come for the intercooler piping so I can focus on something else for a while and stop thinking about throwing in the towel.
Anyone have a good picture of the aluminum Saab IC, specifically of how it mounts at the in/out end? Some bozo always has to outbid me on ebay so I can't seem to get my hands on one of my very own.
Chris
-
Thanks Andrew -
I think the plastic IC has that hole too but it also has a big rubber encased sleeve up above the tank for mounting. I was curious if they'd be directly interchangeable but certainly not if I build the mount to the plastic IC and use the AL IC instead.
Chris
-
Nothing major - my "intercooler piping kit" arrived today, after I had to be mean to the local UPS guys. I really need to find a 1-7/8 to 2" reducer because the 2" hump hose is too big for the intake elbow at the manifold, otherwise this was pretty straight-forward. I have to schedule some time with my welder that I loaned out for final assembly and it'd be nice to find someone that can roll a little lip in the 2" stainless for hose retention.
Chris
Edit - pay no mind to the grass on the carpet - that means I need to vacuum before the girlfriend gets home!
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P6190256.jpg)
-
How's the build coming Chris?
-
Somewhat stalled -
Last weekend I finally got the turbo braced to the block so I don't have to worry so much about ripping the exhaust manifold off. It's similar in design to the JX brace, different in execution.
About 4 hours ago I scored an aluminum SAAB intercooler off Ebay for a nice price so that project might get some more steam. Girlfriend will be here for August so i have to devote my attention in her direction - don't expect much until she goes to school in September.
My top secret custom driver's side engine mount project got kicked to the curb when a buddy quoted me better than $400 for some machine work - that kinda stuff really stings when that's my career of choice without a shop to work in. My buddy down in Irvine agreed to do the work for me, I just need to get off my seat and ship the pieces to him. This is part of the intercooler project, indirectly, since it'll open up the turbo inlet for a straight shot for intake piping.
Still chapped at the pyrometer issue. I think I'm stuck with accepting it or swapping to a different gauge (that won't match the sweet Fast & Furious Autometer boost gauge) - form over function is winning right now, at least I can monitor EGT between bass hits on the sub...
Otherwise not much driving. I have a work car that covers the commute & fuel and for casual ripping on the mean streets of Lone Pine I tend to choose the Caddy. It's just too hot to use the Westy right now - waiting for hot tub season to come around again.
Chris
-
Guess what - hot tub season is upon us! We took the van up for a last minute trip to the Benton music festival (somewhat ambitious with calling it a "festival") and stayed the night at Benton hot springs.
More boost oddities - 15 psi when we left home then I noticed a max of about 11.5 psi after about 75 miles. My boost controller is a little different, using a spring loaded ball valve for "coarse" adjustment and a bleed hole for "fine". I locktighted both adjustment screws (simple socket head grub screws in a threaded aluminum block) and the fine adjustment is solidly glued in place. The coarse screw was easy enough to turn so maybe that one backed off or the spring settled some (questionable materials).
Economy was good - 28.6 mpg on this most recent tank.
Even at the beginning of August, the hot tub was perfect! It got surprisingly cold after midnight, too making for a nice sunrise soak...
Chris
-
More boost oddities - 15 psi when we left home then I noticed a max of about 11.5 psi after about 75 miles.
Economy was good - 28.6 mpg on this most recent tank.
Sticky wastegate. All is well with it cranked down tight. 18psi blows the little rubber boot off the boost gauge T-fitting - Autometer might like to re-engineer that.
Chris
-
Finally some progress and a scare...
We headed down here to the coast for the weekend, about 250 miles each way. 80 miles in, climbing out of Indian Wells Valley at 110 degrees, boost dropped from a steady 13 psi to 3 psi. We pulled over to check but there was nothing obvious and the turbo sounded just fine so we motored on. Holding 65 required only slightly more effort (7/8 pedal vs. 2/3 pedal) and it seemed to still have good boost but maybe no enrichment. Next day, this is what I found:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300100.jpg)
I've been unimpressed so far with the Autometer boost gauge (mechanical). Next time I'll splurge for the electric gauge. Why make a gauge that's good for 20 psi but the tube adapter shoots off at 15 psi, then blows up at even less?
The fix:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300101.jpg)
One thing I noticed is that the engine likes 65 mph much better than 55 - I think the gearing is just a bit too long and tends to lug the engine at 55 in 4th. Now that I know an indicated 80mph = 65, I won't worry so much...
The intercooler mount and piping is worked out. I still need to re-route the intake piping before I can install the IC, but I'm getting closer.
The rear IC mount:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300103.jpg)
As viewed through the taillight cavity:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300104.jpg)
Finished front mount/cover plate:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300108.jpg)
Viewed from underneath (I will add a shroud here to deflect rocks and to improve the draw-through vacuum effect):
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300111.jpg)
-
Nice!!! How about making a couple extra mounts??? :)
-
I do have the plans to knock out a pile of those - I'd like to wait until my production facility situation improves though...
More parts arrived today - not pictured is the thermostat controlled (Volvo) oil cooler adapter:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P9030112.jpg)
I need to hook up the oil temp gauge and make a control run up the highway and back before installing the oil cooler - I want to delete the oil to water cooler, at least until winter and I want to monitor any improvement with just the oil to air cooler.
This will go in front of the right taillight, with the floor cut out on that side for airflow, similar to the intercooler setup. The battery may or may not get moved at some point.
Chris
-
S'funny, my Atlantic much prefers 80mph than 70, it goes all quiet and everything, it just seems happy at 80, so thats where it sits!
Mine's going in today... well, 1/2 way in! (http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29533)
yip!
:)
-
That looks great Baxter!
Do you have any more of those TD Vanagon intake boots kicking around? Napa seems to be out this week...
Chris
-
I'm not exactly sure which bit you mean?
-
Viewed from underneath (I will add a shroud here to deflect rocks and to improve the draw-through vacuum effect):
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P8300111.jpg)
Thats similar to how I set up my oil cooler, but mine is "sealed" to the bottom of the D-pillar so all the air comiing down the d-pillar has to go through the oil cooler, or into the intake, here are some pics.
From the engine compartment,
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/DSC02562.jpg)
Through the tail light, the shiny part is the oil cooler, the dull aluminum is a plate I made to block off the opening in the back.
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/DSC02566.jpg)
And here is apic of the "extention" I made into the wheel well so the cooler would fit,
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/DSC02563.jpg)
And the extension from the bottom,
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/DSC02564.jpg)
-
Nice! I like the sealed effect there for maximum efficiency. Did you also delete the OEM oil cooler? There's been so much discussion lately about oil cooling capacity that it has me worried about things. Oh - looks like no aux. fan either?
Ultimately I'll have the air intake snaking in above the oil cooler but will mostly seal off that right side cubby hole like I did on the left to force as much air through the cooler when tooling down the highway.
Chris
-
Nice! I like the sealed effect there for maximum efficiency. Did you also delete the OEM oil cooler? There's been so much discussion lately about oil cooling capacity that it has me worried about things. Oh - looks like no aux. fan either?
Ultimately I'll have the air intake snaking in above the oil cooler but will mostly seal off that right side cubby hole like I did on the left to force as much air through the cooler when tooling down the highway.
Chris
I left the oil heat exchanger in pace to get the oil up to temp quicker in the winter, it gets VERY cold here.
Aux fan? To pull air through the oil cooler? I want to install one, when going over long steep mountain passes in 2nd at 35 or so, the oil still gets up to 230* which is not bad, but lower is better 8)
My intake air is drawn from just behind the license plate to the right side a bit, that whole channel is connected to the D-pillar, but mine is an 82, used to be air cooled, I'm not sure if/how the air passages back there vary over the years.
-
I left the oil heat exchanger in pace to get the oil up to temp quicker in the winter, it gets VERY cold here.
My intake air is drawn from just behind the license plate to the right side a bit, that whole channel is connected to the D-pillar, but mine is an 82, used to be air cooled, I'm not sure if/how the air passages back there vary over the years.
I'd like to have the OEM cooler in for the winter too but I'll probably delete it for now until I can make a longer stub to catch both the OEM cooler and the Volvo adapter.
I haven't looked at the area near the license plate - mine is an '82 also but stock diesel. That's a good tip!
On a side note - looks like I do have to move the battery. The oil cooler is larger than expected and the fittings occupy part of the same space as the battery. This will solve some other problems too and provide a nice perch for an airbox but I don't really want it in the passenger compartment.
Chris
-
Did the stock diesels not come with the battery behind the passenger seat? That space behind the drivers seat is sealed and does vent to outside, it is a ligit spot to put the battery, but I know what you mean, a gallon of powerful acid in the van is not the safest thing to have around.
-
OK the hole I was talking baout for the intake is actually just to the left (drivers side) of the passenger side tail lights, here are a couple pics, I used some VW parts and some Volvo parts to get from the air box to the hole in question,
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/DSC02568.jpg)
-
Waiting on the uber-trick fabricated aluminium battery box...
The first run tonight with an oil temp gauge - stock cooling system, air temp a cool 65-70 after a late summer rain - 10 minutes up a steep, narrow winding road resulted in oil temps of about 250 degrees (fahrfegheit?).
I wonder what it was doing last July climbing Towne Pass out of Death Valley in the afternoon at near 130 degrees? :evil:
Chris
-
Battery is moved! I used a nice fabbed aluminum battery box that I found on Ebay and it just fit the Group 41 battery with the ends trimmed off. Soon I'll buy a slightly shorter sealed battery since it's now in the living quarters.
Also I dumped the 4ga cables for 1/0ga so no starting issues, hopefully. And I trimmed back all the other wires (alt charge, fusebox power, 2nd battery charge) and realized that the first inch or so of each was heavily corroded from being near the battery. Now they're all terminated at the starter so no more corrosion issues there. I still need to clean the connection at the glow plug fuse and probably replace my bum camper battery to eliminate any other potential electric problems.
Closed:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P9220297.jpg)
Open:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P9220298.jpg)
-
Chuggin' along...
The oil cooler is installed now, in the passenger side cubby hole behind where the battery used to be.
No road tests yet - my girlfriend pulled up just as I was cleaning up my mess. Right now I've bypassed the OEM oil to water cooler with the intent of possibly adding it back in to the system eventually. If this current system proves itself, I'll leave the OEM cooler out and plug the two water hoses.
Here's the opening I cut to allow airflow from the intake scoop through to the underside of the van. Also visible is the deflector I made from .125 aluminium to keep rocks from being thrown through the heat exchanger from the tire and to direct exhaust air to the rear of the van:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA040305.jpg)
Cooler installed and plumbed. I chose to run the hoses this way to leave the most room possible to put an air box on the battery tray. It looks kinda terrible but I haven't put any effort into cleaning up after moving the battery into the passenger area:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA040313.jpg)
Finally the plumbing at the oil filter, mostly obscured by the coolant hose. I could only guess at the fittings I needed when I was dreaming up this project - the two straight fittings at the adapter will be swapped soon for 90s to shorten the hose and get a more favorable hose angle:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA040316.jpg)
Chris
-
I wanted to add that the threaded stub for holding the Volvo/Wahler oil cooler adapter was too long (the OEM Volvo piece) and I had to shorten it by about half an inch and cut another 4-5 threads in the "long" end.
Chris
-
I like the idea of quick oil warmups as provided by the stock oil-water intercooler (gets cold in Edmonton) but also see the need for extra oil cooling (gets hot in Edmonton) which kinda implies another Volvo-style sandwich plate if I want it thermostatically controlled.
Somehow two sandwich plates stacked on top of each other gives me the willies in terms of all those extra seals... and lowers the oil filter closer (probably too close) to the front MK3 subframe.
Were you thinking of stacking the sandwich plate or did you have another thought in mind ??
Andrew: if you're reading this thread... seems to me I remember reading once that you have run both air/air and air/water oil coolers on at least one of your beasts ??
-
Yea the plan was a double stack. My problem is the bottom of the oil filter hitting the lower coolant hose on the van.
I probably rarely see less than about 20 degrees (f) and it didn't seem to warm up terribly fast even with the oil to water cooler. We do routinely get above 100 degrees, even near 130 over the hill in Death Valley.
Chris
-
The same super-scientific test run gave oil temps of about 220 - 230 degrees after climbing the same hill with an air temp of around 80 degrees. Water temps are a bit lower as well.
More realistically, on the highway it seems to like 190 - 200 degrees.
I might add a cooling fan in the future depeding on long term results.
Chris
-
That oil cooler isn't quite as efficient as I'd hoped, with oil temps still reaching 250 on some long climbs and then dropping slowly after reaching the top and cruising/coasting.
I need to add a wall to isolate the right side pillar from the engine bay to force more air through the cooler and allow less to pass the engine. There may be a cooling fan in the future as well, which was part of the original plan.
Plumbing finalized and cleaned up. Degreaser is harsh on aluminum...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA260080.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA260083.jpg)
Chris
-
A nice tidy spot, that... but 120C in October doesn't bode too well...
(http://wiki.80-90.co.uk/images/Instruments_7645%28800%29.jpg)
EGT seen over back of panel creeping up to 700C; Oil temp 110C; Oil pressure 35 psi; Boost 12 psi, 14 at times (10 minutes of 2nd gear mountain climbing, would just about pull 3rd between hairpins)
1.9TD AAZ with IC, 2.5" exhaust; Garret T2 with wasetegate bleed; 19 row oil cooler up-front... Doka circa 2 ton AUW
OAT was not high though, at a guess we're about 5,000 ft in Andorra..
As you say, engine compartment needs to be blocked off and a big fan, I tried that spot with a 10" fan (in floor where your cooler is) all sealed pulling air through a pickups tunnel, so not directly comparable... my cooler was in the tunnel leading forward, but far too small, had good flow through it, but no great shakes, maybe 5C max reduction...
Air will not be coming down that tunnel at 50~60 mph, so at the moment you have mainly radiative cooling, about 2~5% of convection possible.
Smoke tablets can be useful, from plumbers merchants... after all... Who knows where the flow goes... Not me
Yet :)
-
I was going to mention that my EGTs run upwards of 1250 compared to your 700, then I realized you were speaking Celcius...
Oh yea - your steering wheel's on the wrong side! :P
I'm not giving up yet and I'm not into running 30' of oil hose. Gotta see what improvements the divider wall gives but as it sits, it's better than with the OEM cooler. Maybe smoke tablets and a little one-chair trailer would be helpful (once I teach Alexis how to drive a vanagon!).
Highest temps were seen after the 8 mile climb to 5500'. On the flats it'll hold closer to 200F.
Chris
-
On the flats it'll hold closer to 200F
Yes, hope it's OK to be playing devil's advocate a bit and giving my wee oil cooling story... ?
In hot summer, wanting to cruise at 60 or even 70 at times, and then pulling up motorway hills with a bit of headwind, maybe doing 55/60 minimum, up go those temps... seriously, IDIs generate heat like no tomorrow, but maybe a VNT or higher AR turbine would lower that a bit, certianly EGTs
But I just could not risk a brand new engine... I wanted to know I would arrive in fair condition 1,000 miles or more later. So did the missus!
You may get half way there and be acceptable, but there's nothing like knowing that fresh air at 60 mph is impinging right across the full face of the cooler, and cooling will go up by 13% as speed increase to 70... alaso battering a vanagon into a headwind, cooling goes up just the same of course.
-
Honesty, whats the issue with running hose to the front?
When I fit one of the kits I sell it takes about an hour.
So long as the oil pump is in good shape and you don't use too narrow pipe there really is not problem, and it works.
By the time you have fannied about with fans and fancy fittings you could have just bought the right thing and had this job bottomed!
Plus you get that usefull increase in oil capacity which isn't a bad thing considering how small the engine is, how heavy the van is and how hard the lump has to work carrying all that weight around.
Keep the factory oil/water heat exchanger and if your oil cooler is doing it's job right it will also keep the engine temps more constant, again a plus point.
-
Engine temps have never been an issue on this van (except the other night when I realized I'd forgot to bleed the heater circuit), regardless of the air temp (up to 130 degrees, up a 9% grade) or oil cooler configuration. If anything I've noticed a slight drop in coolant temps after removing the oil cooler from the coolant circuit.
I'm curious about the front mounted oil cooler and oil changes - do you guys disconnect the hoses and pump out the old oil? I'm not convinced that there's not a substantial pressure drop and the $150 in braided hose is not appealing to me.
Chris
-
Interesting...
I've always thought my truck ran hotter oil than anyone else, and worse fuel consumption... but sort of come to the conclusion that I have to believe what I see, and measure myself... even if that's always 10C more temp or 10% less mpg.
But it is Syncro Doka usually with knobblies on... here's a mix of long distance and days of off-road driving, mTdis and eTDis seem to get a fair bit better.
Pink is the mpg-to-date, obviously becoming fairly unvarying as it progresses. Blue is actual raw fillup data, black is always a good trend to plot
(http://wiki.80-90.co.uk/images/Consumption_G208THV_04.jpg)
Simon will no doubt be using high spec reinforced hose in those kits, 1/2" BSP as well.
As soon as I did a few sums with 3/4" and 7 litres total capacity popped up on the calculator, that was pretty well it.
Unreinforced 3/4" hoses at £50 in my hand, terminated, was a gamble. Need a big radius to prevent kinking. The engine Bay is the worst bit, but the Doka has more height to play with - length is pretty critical and struck lucky first time, you definitely don't want too much, 3" would be a lot to lose with a big bore hose. Then there's those cut and clamp solutions... we are only talking about 100~200 psi in extremis, most auto cooler pipes seem to be made up to take 1,000's of psi!!!
I should have gone for a 25 row cooler, in retrospect... it would also reduce an pressure loss, but there';s very little I should think at 3/4". Nor 5/8 or 1/2"; 3/8" front to back is not uncommon :P
High pressure loss is not an issue it seems, from 1/2" upwards with a 19 or 25 row full width(235mm) cooler.
Whilst changing oil with the filter off, I motor the engine a bit with the fuel off, which seems to pump some out of the cooler circuit, or it self-siphons out of the filter housing at some angles. Not too bothered, as long as I'm changing a filter and get most of it out... can be blown through if necessary I suppose.
Another thing, am running fully synthetic turbo diesel oil, 10W-40, which can be got here now around the £20 / 5 litres price.
So it's all down to the pipework as you say, buy a complete kit or seek out a tame hydraulics shop.
-
Another option.... covers 3/4 of the inlet area. Photo is pre-thermostat install.
Took 2 min to mount with self tapping sheet metal screws. Kept the stock unit to help with warm up. Room for a fan if required.
Great thread BTW!
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/462962.jpg)
-
Cool deal - thanks for the conversation, guys! I wish I had a Syncro Doka...
The remote filter is a great solution if I decide to reinstall the OEM cooler - never thought of that.
Chris
-
Wish my Jeep Rubicon got those numbers !! 12 mpg is average - on road :-(
True, I can go place the Syncro can't, but I can't sleep well in the Jeep !!
After the Caravan is runing with the 1.6L TD, the Jeep will be next !! The diesel version they sell to the rest of the world gets north of 20 mpg.
-
I'm gonna give this a shot and see how it goes...
Free is better than 30' of hose, if it works:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA300083.jpg)
-
Funny thing was, to get my rear cooler hooked up I took the 3/8" hoses that came with it to be altered and have new ends put on to fit the oil housing take-off plate. Cutting a long story short, I was eventually charged £47-80 (inc VAT) to make some up to fit
Of course I didn't go back there to get 30' of 3/4" hose with 4 fitted ends, but where I did go cost me £50 cash...
Some kinda irony there, especially as it as good as cost me an engine and a year :)
-
Hey
I'm pretty new to engines and such, but i was wondering, why do you need an extra oil cooler if theres a heat exchanger built in the oil filter?
Also I saw on one of the pics that there was also an extra oil filter with a heat exchanger?
-
Dunno about a second oil filter? One of my pictures?
The heavy van is hard on the little daintily powered turbo diesels and just having a turbo pushes lots of heat into the oil so any extra cooling capacity is a plus.
It seems to be accepted that the OEM heat exchanger is great for bringing the oil to temp quickly and marginal after that for removing excess heat from the oil. My specific goal was to bring oil temps down while also not introducing that heat into the cooling system with the option of adding the heat exchanger back, depending on how things turned out.
I don't think the aux. oil cooler is efficient enough how I have it setup since oil temps still climb to near 250 degrees and don't really drop all that quick on the downhills. I'm thinking of adding a cooling fan or maybe even some NACA ducts to make it look really fast. I'll probably also reinstall the OEM heat exchanger to see what difference that makes.
Edit: I just replaced my head gasket due to the old one having some pressure retention issues. This may help indirectly with oil cooling but I don't expect much improvement.
Chris
-
Hey, sorry, the second oil filter is what i saw on the latest blackdogvan post. At least it's what looks very much like a oil filter.
I have a vegetable oil conversion on my Vanagon - do you think if i installed a turbo, i could use the extra heat to warm up the vegetable oil?
-
That's just the primary filter mounted remote. Looks like it was done that way to make it easy to plumb in the oil cooler.
Chris
-
I'm gonna give this a shot and see how it goes...
Free is better than 30' of hose, if it works:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PA300083.jpg)
That looks quite nice!
The one thing I would add would be some foam weather stripping of some sort in any of the gaps that are big enough to fit it in, for the bigger gaps you can get 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" foam used to deal air conditioners into window openings.
My oil cooler set-up is similar to yours, and completely sealing it in made its performance go from ok to kick ass.
-
The one thing I would add would be some foam weather stripping of some sort in any of the gaps that are big enough to fit it in, for the bigger gaps you can get 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" foam used to deal air conditioners into window openings.
That's what I have planned, I just got caught up in other things right now. I'm gonna mount my little handheld weather meter in there too, to see what amount of airflow I get through the oil cooler at highway speeds.
Chris
-
This doesn't bode well for my oil cooler (or the intercooler that'll be mounted in the same fashion on the other side).
With the GPS running, I logged a max vehicle speed of 54.8 mph. The wind meter mounted in the direct airstream on the right side, under the intake vent only recorded a max wind speed of 14.4 mph through the oil cooler.
Time for a fan.
Chris
-
What kind of temps are you seeing now?? I can't believe that sweet setup wouldn't work really well. Figure you should drop 10 deg just for looking good! Mine sits pretty rock solid around 200/205 measured between the stock temp modulator and my aux cooler.
My filter is the primary, i got sick of the mess at oil change time so now i punch a hole in the bottom & it drains a straight shot to the ground.
-
I was still creeping up on 250 degrees on some of the long passes out here. I had expected oil temps to come down rapidly after reaching the high point and coasting down the back side but that hasn't been the case yet.
Chris
-
I was still creeping up on 250 degrees on some of the long passes out here.
Chris
Chris, what altatude were you at ?
-
Home is 3700 feet; that particular trip was to about 5300 feet.
Looks like I might have a cracked head right now (cut corners when I thought it was a bad head gasket and didn't pressure test the head).
Shoulda gone TDi but I'm in too deep - no turning back now :twisted:
It's funny how a simple attempt to repair a mangled oil return has snowballed into what this project has become. At least now I'm aware of the caveats for the next time around...
Chris
-
The problem - the left side engine bracket interferes with a straight shot to the compressor inlet. The intercooler is going where the air cleaner sits so the air cleaner needs to be relocated to the passenger side with plumbing crossing over in front of the engine:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PC290195.jpg)
The solution - new engine bracket. I still need to settle on an air filter to use and build the plumbing but this was the #1 hurdle to that project. I probably would have figured something else out but I'm hoping this bracket will also work with the Jetta turbo configuration and maybe even eliminate one tough spot with a potential TDi swap in the future:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PC290196.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/PC290197.jpg)
Chris
-
Ya, very nice work on that mount!!
-
I like it. Good work.
-
Incredibly clean welding on that support arm! Thumbs up for the whole car actually!
-
On the oil temp topic, my B&M oil cooler decided to fail yesterday spewing oil everywhere, seems to have failed on a solder joint... no idea how or why. I caught it in time tho.
Anyway running without the cooler now & oil temp sits at 210 cruising on the highway, was rock solid at 190 with cooler in place. Its interesting to see how well the cooler worked installed half covering the PS air vent passage with no fan. Hopefully this won't spark a air scoop debate over here...
-
Lol - no air scoop chatter! But I might add a NACA duct above the oil cooler so it looks racy. I was disappointed in the wind speed through the cooler vs. vehicle speed...
That's on the back burner anyhow until I can get my head to seal. Other good stuff coming down the pipe shortly as well.
Chris
-
That bracket is totally sweeet.
Andrew
X2
Any interest in making duplicates??? I know quite a few people who would be interested: myself included. The solution my Pops has on his 1.9 AAZ Vanagon is not very enviable to say the least...
-
Yea the intent was to make 2 of these and test fit the second to some other engine configurations to see how it fits - but I ran out of round tuits.
I do have the drawings and jig, just need time...
But I don't think I could do it for any less that greaseworks sells theirs for - lots of labor, even with machine work for free (I was quoted $4-500 in machine work alone for 2 sets of parts and the jig pieces - good thing I had a buddy that was willing to do it for free).
Uh but yea, I'd like to sell a few - maybe if I could get multiple confirmed orders or something
Chris
-
Minor progress today/lessons learned...
1. Fiber head gasket failures aren't always caused by excess boost (warped heads do it too!).
2. MLS gaskets don't seal well on warped heads (especially at 2x the max limit for warpage!).
3. The fabled belt-sander head job is not a viable option (it came out worse than when I dropped it off!).
4. Rimco does nice work, for less than the original cob-job on the belt-sander.
The engine is almost back together and should be running this weekend. I got the air filter bolted in but it still needs to be churched up a bit. Of course as usual - solutions breed problems. I'm now knocking plans around in my head for a nice fabbed aluminum coolant tank since the stocker just barely squeezes in between fuel and air filters, and that's without any sort of mount system.
Krylon "old equipment yellow" dosen't match the VW paint very well. I think I'm gonna go back and black this area out after a proper clean up. Still waiting on tubing - there'll be 3" stainless running most of the distance between air filter and turbo. Ultimately I'll spin the filter housing around and run the filter intake into the D-pillar.
Not quite finished:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1280183.jpg)
New vs. old (another of the PO's grand ideas - off a Honda or something, I'm NOT taking the blame for this one):
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1280187.jpg)
Chris
-
Now we're getting somewhere...
The air filter is installed where the battery used to be, piped across to the turbo using 3" stainless tube and some 3" hose. This is why I needed to build the custom engine bracket for the left side. I still need to round up a couple 3" hose clamps and this part will be done for now. Oh - I do need to add a fitting for the crankcase breather, I just need to scare up some 3/4" tube and add it to the crossover pipe.
The intercooler is installed and mostly plumbed. I used an Ecodiesel intake for the conventional inlet neck and the BOV delete. I might need a different connector at the compressor end - the hump hose touches part of the exhaust manifold, hopefully I can find a 15 degree silicone fitting.
I still need to come up with a coolant tank. Some parts are on the way so hopefully next weekend I'll have a cool aluminum tank to show off.
Crossover:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1310183.jpg)
Installed:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1310186.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1310189.jpg)
Connection to the turbo:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1310188.jpg)
Air filter:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1310185.jpg)
Intercooler:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1310184.jpg)
-
I've been driving it around today -
It looks like the 3rd time was the charm with the head gasket; it looks like I might have even sealed up the second oil drain hole in the gasket successfully, too.
EGT is down considerably - I used to have to back out under hard acceleration, now it's not easy to pass 1000 degrees.
Boost is down a bit, topping out at about 16 psi.
Fueling may be off a touch from before since I was monkeying with the enrichment pin but the intercooler does make a noticeable difference.
Now there's a high-pitched whistle above about 10 psi so I need to troubleshoot for a minor leak in the intake routing. Also, I haven't hooked up the crank breather hockey puck - I'm curious if that's the source of the whistle.
Off to the superbowl commercial party. Football sucks.
Chris
-
Awesome Dude! Looks great & some fantastic, clean fabrication there!
-
Very clean install !!! I like !!!
-
Thanks guys - things would come out much nicer if I had a proper shop to work in.
Now there's a high-pitched whistle above about 10 psi so I need to troubleshoot for a minor leak in the intake routing.
I cobbled together a pipe-bomb pressure test apparatus (that launches plumbing plugs a pretty good distance into the air!) and traced the noise to some ill-sized hose clamps. I had a brain fart when I was ordering parts and missed the clamps at the intercooler so had to use some too-large sized clamps that bottomed out before making a proper seal. This was what I suspected but a full day at work and plenty of free time had me thinking that maybe my turbo was crapping out or zombies were screaming or something.
Chris
-
I was just asked how I handled the second oil return in the MLS head gasket...
I went to NAPA and asked around for some flat rubber sheet or some such. The guy came back with a big-fat radial tire patch that measured out to 2.54mm, uncompressed. That gives just a bit more than a full milimeter of compression so I figured I'd give it a shot.
The ultimate solution was cutting a disc that fit nice in the hole - doesn't need to be perfect but should be real close. Then I pushed a little RTV in between the gasket layers, ran a very small bead around the coolant holes in the head and block, built a tiny RTV dam across the recess in the gasket between head-bolt hole and oil return hole and bolted it all up. Comparing to a fiber gasket I had laying around, there's not even a coolant passage in the gasket so I didn't poke a hole in my patch, just plugged the hole solid.
Chris
-
I made a quick visit to my TIG machine this weekend. I timed it perfect and ran out of argon shortly after finishing this but before pressure testing it. Luckily it held to 40psi so I called it good and slathered it in paint.
I'll be driving the van to work tomorrow and probably kicking the fuel up a touch via the LDA before heading home. Boost comes on a bit slow and it's hard to max the turbo. EGT is still peaking at about 1000 degrees so I have some room to stretch a bit.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P2090191.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P2090192.jpg)
Chris
-
Nice tank. Did you use aluminum or steel ?
-
It's .120" 6061 aluminum. The filler neck and NPT bungs came from Ebay.
Chris
-
Thanks Andrew -
I rarely open the hatch if I don't have to, so as long as there's coolant in the overflow bottle and there're no other cooling issues, I assume the best. My OEM bottle was so yellowed that it was not easy to judge the level of the orange Dexcool anyhow...
But yea, if everything's working as designed and the overflow is at the proper level, the pressure tank should be full to the top.
The filler neck I bought uses the uber-common American car pressure cap, available from 6psi up to about 30psi. I chose 13 psi. Uh, this cap also fits the one year only '82 van tank (as I found out when I needed to replace the old one that wasn't holding pressure). As best I could tell, all the critical dimensions between the VW cap and a generic American cap were close enough - 3/4" vs. 19mm for example - and the tolerances were loose enough that they're interchangeable. YMMV, don't try this at home, etc, etc, etc...
Chris
-
Yea, I thought about the sight tube method. I think trying to adapt the later low-level sensor would serve even better usefulness, especially in the event of a sudden leak or other loss of coolant while driving.
Chris
-
Could always mount two hose barbs to the top and bottom of the tank and run some clear tubing, but probably might not be worth the effort.
Andrew
Or retrofit the uber-reliable VW coolant sensor, surgically removed at the junk-yard, so that an idiot light on the dash comes on ??
OK, so I'm kidding about the "uber-reliable" part... ;-) But I certainly found when I had vans in the fleet that I looked under the hood at fluids and things even less than how often I inspect my cars... probably all the crap in the back that would have to move first. :roll:
Again, probably not worth the effort.... just living vicariously from my armchair. :lol:
-
Chris,
I just wanted to say thanks for doing all the ground work and posting such good info and pictures. It has saved me a lot of time figuring these things out. I have now mounted my Saab IC in the drivers pillar, shrouded much like you did. Not as neat since I don't weld!
Next is to figure out the piping for the IC and the air cleaner. I have a muffler crossing over where you ran your intake pipe so fear that would make the intake air too hot.
I don't know if you had this in your van but when I dug around in the drivers pillar I discovered that my van has a snorkel all the way up to the vent, inlets facing backwards of all things, with a water trap down at the bottom. Quite a contraption but good for keeping the air away from the heat and dust down near the road surface.
I suspect I am going to have to buy a new air filter housing to arrange it all properly in the passenger side pillar and try to figure out a way to run the air intake line where it won't get hot.
I am interested in the engine bracket you made as well if you decide to make some.
Thanks again, I am looking forward to not having to ease off to 45 up hills to keep EGT's down. The power is there, I just haven't been able to use it all yet.
Alex
-
Hey thanks Alex! I just built on other people's ideas and input and added my own touch here and there...
I think the next major step is to re-rebuild the turbo (thanks Prothe!, says Luckypabst with a hint of sarcastic glee) and I need to go back to increasing air flow through the oil cooler and intercooler. Otherwise, I think the bulk of the engine work is done.
Agreed on the exhaust putting heat into the intake ducting but probably not by much. I don't think my exhaust tubing ever gets all that hot though. Just toss the muffler and don't worry about it!
I might be persuaded to build an engine mount for you for free if you can come up with a large acreage at a nice price, somewhere between Santa Fe and Taos, otherwise give me some time - I'll see what I can work up (still need to address the change in engine mounts for '83).
Chris
-
Chris,
that's a big slice of territory so if you're seriously looking let me have some more specifics of what you are after. I have a good friend who is a realtor in Taos. They could at least pull up the specific type you are looking for on the MLS.
Actually had a friend who lived in Lone Pine and Bishop years ago that I have lost touch with. He loved that part of the world.
And yes, I might have to try my exhaust like yours to get the intake line in. My muffler is just a glass-pack so probably doesn't do much anyway. Do need to soundproof the van anyway too, at some stage...
Alex
-
I have now got my IC plumbing stuff measured, mocked-up and on order, Saab all Al IC installed and sealed in the drivers side intake hole and have figured out how to run 2 inch intake piping over to the passenger side air intake vent in the pillar.
But, my air filter canister will not work on the other side if I want to draw the fresh air from the vent in the pillar as the inlet and outlet holes do not line up with the new intake pipe. Has anyone got any ideas of where to go to find an appropriate air filter canister? Or what might work from another vehicle? My current stock JX set up is a metal canister.
thanks,
Alex
-
I used a Donaldson air filter that's similar in design to the JX canister. They have a lot of different sizes available and one might work for you. Google the name and you should come up with a PDF of their catalog.
Chris
-
Thanks Chris, found 'em. I may have to contact them to figure out what will have the inlet/outlet in the correct place as a lot of their cans don't have drawings in the catalogue. But I'm sure they will have something.
And using Andrew's earlier post about needing about 1700 gpm at WOT it looks like a 250 cfm unit will give a nice margin.
Alex
-
The model I bought was the G070020 with 3" in and out. It's a pretty big unit and is rated at 190 cfm at 10" water. I gave up on trying to match the air flow rating and figured that the 3" hose size is considerably larger than the OEM intake track and even more so than the compressor inlet.
For that series of air cleaners, you can get either a straight inlet or a 90 degree inlet that you can rotate to point in the right direction. Then you can spin the housing as needed to point the inlet where you need it.
Chris
-
Well, I've been busy the last few days: installed the Saab all aluminum IC in the drivers side pillar, made a fan shroud and installed a small fan, installed all the IC tubing and adjusted the wastegate almost all the way in to give me about 13 lbs of boost. (BOV disabled ages ago) Fan was done with a manual switch on the dash to avoid the complexity of thermostatic switches.
Hallelujah! In preliminary testing I can now use full or almost full throttle up hill and can barely get the EGT's to go over 1200 with no smoke I can see. It really seems to work. I know, I know, this has all been done and detailed before but it is still a pleasant surprise to test it and verify the result. Useable power at last.
I am taking the camper out for the weekend for a climbing trip so I'll see what it can do on the highway up hill. That was always what bugged me: there was plenty of power to keep a reasonable speed but EGT's would climb too high to use it on uphills.
I need to make or buy a manual boost controller I guess since I seem to max out at 13 psi. My goal is 15 psi. So finish the air intake, get the MBC going and tidy up a few things and I'll be done for now. I am probably going to have to rebuild the turbo at some point soon too since I am getting a lot of oil blowing into the cold side.
A long haul and a lot of money from the original 1.6NA with it's 55mph max speed on the flat. Was it worth it? Probably not but I'd do it again...
Thanks to all on this great forum for going there first and making my job so much easier. If anyone else is planning something similar and is interested I can post photos once I get my camera back next week.
-
We always want to see photos!!
-
Okay, still can't get the photo posting to work here so here's a link to the Flicker set with 8 pics of the van. Unless you want to look at 152 pictures of DC taken by my 12 y/o son on a school trip I suggest you just look at the van set!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26343906@N03/sets/
Did a 350 mile trip this weekend to go climbing. Bad timing for an outdoor weekend as a serious cold front blew through but the van behaved perfectly.
With wastegate screwed in most of the way I can hit 15 psi under full load, about 5-7 psi burbling down the highway at 70 mph (indicated). I can hold 70 up some pretty good hills with power to spare, EGT's seem to max out at 1250/1300 no matter what I do. The van seems smoother (?) but is very much nicer to drive. Power to spare on the level and the van just feels much more relaxed. I can accelerate up long steady inclines and can hold highway speed without any trouble. Oddly enough given the results of the airflow tests, the fan made no difference to the EGT's. But it was bloody cold.
Engine temps stay low but I have not yet hooked up the oil temp gauge but will report on that once it's done. The trip was at 4000 to 7000 feet and I was able to make it up the rocky, steep and loose dirt road to our campsite in second gear rather than struggling in first as I did before.
Have not yet filled the tank but it looks as if I may be getting better mileage as well. This is what I thought I was getting with just the TD engine but soon discovered that the TD alone needed some help.
BTW I am presently running the intake with the original JX airbox sitting in the passenger pillar and a lot of PVC pipe to connect it all. I think I can use the JX airbox as is if I mount it vertically and run the intake up into the pillar.
So I am amazed at how well this has worked. Maybe a governor mod and then I'll have it dyno'd just to see where it stands. Any bets on 90 Hp?
-
Nice! I'd love to see what kind of power you're making. My van is on vacation until I can put the interior back together...
Chris
-
Well this weekend was interesting. Went off for the w/e with a full load of three kids, two adults, water, camping and climbing gear and with a big chainsaw lashed to the Westy's luggage rack. There was a hellova storm front blowing through New Mexico so had to drive the 150 miles down with 30 mph winds. Haven't refilled tank to check fuel consumption yet.
The van was not very happy. I think the power and responsiveness I was feeling last trip must have been pretty close to the max for this little engine as it is currently set up. I had a hard time making 60 on the highway and could easily get EGT's to go above 1250 pushing a bit up hills.
I stayed at 1250 for the max but the van would run at 1200 with 10-12 lbs boost on the level when the wind was at it's worst. Going uphill was more an issue of slowing down and gearing down to cope. Any extra throttle raised EGT's up high again.
Now engine and oil temps stayed pretty cool and EGT's seemed to stall at 1300 rather than keep climbing as they used to pre-IC so it is still worlds better than it was originally. However the winds and the load made me realize that I am probably close to the max without going deeper and deeper into this van. I would still like a bit more if it is possible without too much expense....
Pump is stock and freshly rebuilt, injectors are freshly rebuilt, engine is just getting run in after a rebuild. Exhaust is 2.5 inch with a cherry bomb muffler. Any ideas for that little extra? I am thinking 2.5 inch exhaust outlet for the turbo rather than the stock outlet necked up to 2.5 that I have now, shorter straight through pipe then maybe some pump mods? But I am unsure if any pump mods can be done without just pushing EGT's too high again.
The quest continues....
-
Is the I/C getting enough cooling air?
I would look into that. Maybe an electric fan would help? They used to fit those on Saabs your I/C came from!
Water injection would be nice too. It can help lower EGT:s considerably.
And a good downpipe is a must on any tuned VAG TD engine.
-
I do have a fan, sealed on top of the IC with foam strips but it really doesn't seem to make any difference. It does seem a bit odd that it doesn't change it since previous posters have measured air flow down there and basically not found much, maybe I'll have to re-look at my set up. With the fan shroud but fan not running the airflow must be really minimal since the shroud blocks most of the IC.
Thanks for the idea though, I will need to try it without the fan and shroud and see what gives. Certainly the turbo to IC pipe is hot and the IC to intake is cool after a good haul down the highway.
Water spray? I have read about it but I would prefer to get it running well without any other added gadgets. I'm hoping to find that ideal balance of fuel and air that will give me the power I want without any other add-ons. May not be possible though.
I'll start with getting the exhaust done and see how that goes.
-
Exhaust would help, I'm sure. Mine is 2.25 start to end which is the same size as the turbo outlet. I probably should have gone with 2.5", looking back.
Turn up the boost. Give it a few more psi at least. You're not much over the stock setting and if you don't increase fueling, you should see a little less EGT.
Otherwise I'm of no help. Life crapped on me lately and I haven't had a chance to play with improving air flow through the IC yet, but it'll probably involve a low profile scoop to draw more are into the vent - I tried the Home Depot mixing tray but I don't think that's the look I'm after...
Chris
-
"Otherwise I'm of no help. Life crapped on me lately"
Sorry to hear that Chris but I will keep you posted on what I get going. I needed to re-do my exhaust anyway to put in a flex coupling so might as well go the whole way.
My experience with the fan suggests to me that airflow over the IC may not be too much of an issue when going reasonably fast. And if you're not going fast the IC is probably not having to do much anyway. Baxter in the UK posted that he found a big difference with and without the fan. Bit of a mystery this whole process is....
-
I'm cool - I'm healing. Going to sleep in some sand dunes at 6am (and the events that lead up to that) yesterday really helped jump-start the healing process...
Women will come and women will go but the van goes on forever...
There's a local desert party coming up in May as a goal to at least have the Westy road-worthy again so things are looking up.
Carry on
Chris
-
Ah, that kind of problem...
Yeah, they can kick the sh*t out of you can't they.
Alex
-
There's not much to update here...
The oil cooler and intercooler need help - I've seen oil temps to 270 on the 4000' climb to Horseshoe Meadows and nearly as much climbing Sherwin Grade out of Bishop.
But plans may be changing sometime soon. I put a deposit down on this today:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/2003VWBeetleTDI001.jpg)
Chris
-
Yep...
78,000 miles on it. I might need to find a nicer recipient than what I have on hand, but I would love to have a tuned TDi in my Westy.
I'm losing it - I bought a (hopefully) 50's vintage Monarch 10EE lathe, sight unseen two days ago.
Chris
-
Congratulations on the Beatle. I am beginning to think that the TDI is the way to go for vans, especially campers. Now that it's summer I have discovered that my 1.6 just cannot cope with the heat unless I baby it along. Bear in mind my van now has a IC with fan, oil cooler, rebuilt radiator etc etc. I just struggle to keep temps anywhere near reasonable when the van is under load, like a long pass or a stiff headwind. Drops right back to normal on the downhill slope. I am beginning to think these engines just put out too much heat pushing a van around.
Cooler nights are better but it still has to be driven gently to prevent it getting hot. My opinion, for what it's worth is that the 1.6 turbo in a van is fine for a freight hauler around German cities but it is not a highway vehicle at US speeds and especially not in the south west in summer. When it's 100 F out it is not a happy engine.
I have a few tests to run to see if my oil cooler is affecting oil pressure and to plug the old coolant lines for the oil cooler to see if that helps but I think I may have fried my engine in the early days before I got an EGT gauge. The max hot oil pressure I see is 25 psi, 12/13 at idle. If that's the case I shall probably put it up for sale as is. I have a big 10 year boat-building project coming to a end and just don't have the energy to mess with this van anymore if it is a bad motor.
-
So the plot thickens: I bypassed the oil cooler to test the oil pressure and got much better readings. Highway speed with the engine at normal temps (mid-point on the gauge) gives me 40-50 psi, idle is the same at about 12 psi, peak at 70 if I rev the nuts off it. But after getting it hotter by doing a good freeway hill at 95 F outside temp the engine coolant temps went up to the 3/4 line and the oil pressure dropped to the 25 psi level. Need to fit my oil temp sender and gauge and try to correlate all this. After a 20 minute drive back down the hill and through town to home my oil temps were 97 C/ about 200 F. Using an IR thermometer to measure. But a question came up:
Is it possible I am running lean? I wonder if the governor is not cutting fuel as the engine starts to load up with a hill, giving me the high EGT's. I know very little about this motor and IP set-up apart from what I have gleaned on here. It seems to me that as boost starts to rise, the governor starts to cut fuel which would result in the mixture being lean
I have a spare JX pump so I'll practice the governor mod on that and they try mine for real. Anyway as the motor seems to be fine I guess I have to sort this out one way or the other even if I do decide to sell it.
-
I know the feeling, i'm making th switch to the tdi page this fall... .216's, 11mm pump (on the fence as to send it to Ontario...) GT2056V, bigger IC, 4.57's....
Have itch... must scratch. :)
Yep...
78,000 miles on it. I might need to find a nicer recipient than what I have on hand, but I would love to have a tuned TDi in my Westy.
I'm losing it - I bought a (hopefully) 50's vintage Monarch 10EE lathe, sight unseen two days ago.
Chris
-
thanks for the reply Reiney,
I am taking it back to the shop Monday to have it looked at again. I am pretty dammed frustrated at this stage. I did have the radiator re-cored, all new pipes including the SS tubes under the van, new water pump and thermostat etc. I guess it's good to know that these little 1.6 td motors can work in a van but I am baffled as to what is going on with this one. I know my IC works, it lowers intake air at least 40c but even so it will overheat.
I was on the way to Chama from Abq 2 weeks ago and barely made it up La Bajada with the temp needle all but pegged. Can you run yours for any length of time with EGT's above 1100 without the engine overheating?
Alex
-
My biggest problem is oil temperature right now. Boosting above about 12 - 13 psi for extended periods results in rapid oil temp rise, to as much as 270 degrees. I need to either go back to the OEM cooler or add a fan to my aux cooler or both.
Second to that is water temp, but only on loooong grades (the 15+ mile grades up the mountainside). Still though, the needle only ever reaches about halfway between the LED and the red zone.
I keep EGTs to no more than 1200 - 1250 under a load. But once the oil heats up, it's the oil temp that keeps me off throttle...
The intercooler needs a fan too so my EGTs could potentially be lower in the future.
Chris
-
Lucky, I can't remember, did you delete your stock oil/water "cooler" when you added the oil/air cooler?
If so, maybe experiment with putting it back on, while keeping the oil/air system in place, too.
Lots of chatter around the web to suggest that the original oil/water cooler doesn't cool the oil much (and mostly acts to warm it on cold days). However, I did not find that to be the case in my own experiments. When running only the oil/air cooler, the oil temps were much worse than they were when running just the stock oil/water cooler.
I'm now running both the oil/water cooler and an oil/air cooler in my van. In fact, I upgraded the stock oil/water cooler to a much larger one from a Passat PD. This current dual-cooler system keeps oil temps in check much better than just having one or the other type of cooler in place.
-
I did delete the OEM cooler. I do need to swap back and see what the difference is - I just haven't been to interested in dealing with the oil hoses. Right now I'm leaning toward a TDi cooler and calling it done. There's not been much drive to work on the Westy lately...
Chris
-
Instead of swapping back, consider just adding the OEM (or TDi) cooler to your current air/oil cooler.
It makes a bit of an ugly stack on the oil filter spike, I suppose. More potential for leaks. Mine has a slow weep, which I'll get around to eventually, maybe.
Photos are a bit awkward to take in that location, but you get the idea. Mine is a 15* install, 1.9 TD.
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x78/witless_joe/bottom_view.jpg)
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x78/witless_joe/top_view.jpg)
-
Is it possible I am running lean? I wonder if the governor is not cutting fuel as the engine starts to load up with a hill, giving me the high EGT's. I know very little about this motor and IP set-up apart from what I have gleaned on here. It seems to me that as boost starts to rise, the governor starts to cut fuel which would result in the mixture being lean
Only gassers can run "rich" or "lean" from "normal" - they require the gas / air mixture to be about 17.5 : 1 for the engine to run (stoichiometric ratio) . They control power therefore by limiting the amount of air into the engine (and the accompanying ratio of gas.) Less fuel = lean, more fuel than that = rich. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio)
Diesels on the other hand, always allow the max air the engine speed / turbo pressure can pack in the cylinder (except for the newest diesel designs with a throttle plate for emission control). We control power by injecting more or less fuel. If we inject too much too quickly, you get black smoke, inject less and you get less power. Some would say we are always lean.
Your temps are similar to my 1.6 turbo - in IC is not installed yet, but the IC loop is and has some cooling effect.
-
I would add also, that running "leaner" on a diesel means running cooler. If you are adequately intercooled, then increasing boost while keeping fueling the same will always LOWER temperatures due to the "leaner" mixture.
Andrew
P.S. Arb, gasser stoich is 14.7:1
thats what i thought, couldnt remember if it was 13.7 or 14.7 tho.
-
Thank you for the information, Arb, Andrew and 'roids. There goes that theory anyway but each piece of knowledge I gain helps a little. I'll know more after Mondays exam by the mech. that did all the work originally. But if nothing else I just bought a bleeder valve for boost control so I'll try stuffing 20 psi in there and see what happens.
-
Turns out that I have a split boot on the intake. On the Jx it's the odd shaped, stepped rubber coupler on the intake from the air filter that just fits between the engine mount and the turbo. And my turbo is also now leaking tons of oil so I need to find that boot, (or some other way of doing it) and get the turbo rebuilt then we can start to play with the other variables to see what is causing the overheating.
Mechanic did check the water pump impeller for slipping, the thermostat and the water pump flow. All seem to be okay.
-
Thanks Andrew but since I bought the motor from them originally and was less than impressed by their honesty or the quality of their "good, used engines" I think I'd rather not ever deal with them again. I wouldn't trust them any further than I could throw one of their engines.
I may have to get someone in the UK to get one for me or just bite the bullet and get one of the Grease Works motor mounts and try it to see if it will give me a straight shot at the turbo inlet.
-
I do plan to knock out a pile of those brackets but it won't be terribly soon - but I do think the price will be a bit nicer. I need to hunt down an affordable phase converter and one of the second generation engine mounts so I can adjust my jig to work with both styles.
I've seen the boots from time to time on Ebay. Hit up that seller that's in Bonn, Germany - I know I've seen him advertise them on US Ebay several times.
Chris
-
I'm concerned about clearance between the head of the mount bolt and my angle bracket on the end of the arm. It may work as-is but I need to verify...
Chris
-
It was missing before I ever got my hands on the van. Probably from when the engine got replaced many years ago. My van has seen a few good hacks in its day...
Chris
-
Well, the fleabay tip was a good'un. First day nothing, second day- Bingo. Came from somewhere east of here, Oklahoma or some other flatland state. So when that's installed again I'll be back to the struggle of trying to figure out the EGT's and the hot running engine! Anybody ever heard of a different and bigger radiator being fitted to a van? Maybe I should just get a big radiator and mount it on the front like a Mexican bay window.
Would still like one of your blue ribbon engine mounts Mr. Pabst...
-
Have you made any progress on your oil temps? I am having similar oil temps; 270F when going from 5,000' up to Eisenhower Pass at ~10,500'. I am about to add the large oil cooler from a Toureg to my finned cooler as Otis suggested. I have a 1.9AAZ TD with a T2 turbo, Saab intercooler, new radiator, front mounted 19row finned oil cooler, and normal size OEM oil cooler in a Syncro Adventurewagen. Here's my setup; http://billwildenberg.shutterfly.com/vwvanagon
I am thinking of adding water/methanol injection but would rather not add complexity...
-
I blew my turbo up so had to send it away to be rebuilt. Still waiting for G-pop shop to get to it. Once that's done then I have to get it all back together and replace both crank seals that are leaking. I am surprised that you are having this problem with a 1.9. I would have guessed that a 1.9 would not be working that hard. Incidentally do you also get low oil pressure when the oil gets hot?
Nice looking van you have there BTW.
-
Anybody ever heard of a different and bigger radiator being fitted to a van?
There were two originally listed by VW, but I'm told only one is now supplied by VW...
which should be the better (later) one, originally specified for the JX, DJ etc
068 121 253 E (A originally supplied for the DG, SP 1.9 petrols)
The 1.9 diesel does produce prodigious amounts of heat, particualrly at higher rpm and particularly as the trubine starts choking and cylinder back-pressure goes up.
VW's T3 solution was to change the diesel's cab floorpan, with a wider duct for better egress, and of course a more powerful 2-stage fan.
The rad external fins should be clean , the cardboard side baffles be in place and in good nick, and the fans checked and working (which can/do come on even when cruising above say 60 or hillclimbing, as well as in traffic/idling)
I suppose a check that your water pump vanes aren't corroded away too..
-
The 1.9 diesel does produce prodigious amounts of heat, particualrly at higher rpm and particularly as the trubine starts choking and cylinder back-pressure goes up.
VW's T3 solution was to change the diesel's cab floorpan, with a wider duct for better egress, and of course a more powerful 2-stage fan.
Can you possibly share some links or images that show the differences in the floorpan? This could be a huge reason for the higher oil temps in conversion diesel vans.
-
Are you talking about the cooling changes VW made between the 85 & 86 model years?
Awesome site BTW wildenbeast!! Really great resource for anyone looking for info.
-
Thanks. I set up that website so I could always go back and figure out what I was doing at the time I made changes...
What I was referring to was HarryMann's post where he was suggesting that the T3 diesels were different than a T3 gas design for the floorpan. If there is more info on this, I'd like to see it.
-
Having a 'proper' (ex-factory) diesel Vanagon Doka, I can say that this isn't a reason for the high oil temps, IMHO.
But the cooling flow to the water radiator up front, must have worth some difference, for VW to go to some considerable trouble changing the cab floorpan.
I'll try to find some piccies, which may not be easy to illustrate the difference; however, suffice to say that the flat pressing for the gearchange tunnel is maybe 1ft wider... I'll try to measure up against my petrol panelvan, width and depth differences...
Also, suffice to say, it won't be possible to change a petrol one without a considerable amount of effort, and probably just not worth it, have never heard of anyone doing this..
-
What might be worth investigating is a large capacity electric pump up front, to assist the general flow around the system ?
That's assuming you already have a large (say 25 row/pass) oil cooler up front (in front of bottom of rad) with large (1/2 ~ 3/4") hoses giving a useful increase in total oil capacity. One of those takes away a fair amount of heat in itself.
It may be that the different floorpan was connected to the much more powerful fan on the Diesel (440/550W?), which perhaps didn't make enough difference without the floorpan mods.
It's also possible a decent air-dam might improve radiator flow too.
-
Interesting discussion, my mechanic mentioned installing an electric water pump from another VW (Corrodo, I think) to try to boost cooling. I am still waiting for the van to come back with the rebuilt turbo installed so I can start testing cooling again. I will post any results I get.
And yup, I do have a front mount oil cooler with 1/2 inch hoses but I loose oil pressure when the oil gets hot. If I disconnect the cooler OP stays high. Any suggestions?
-
Interesting discussion, my mechanic mentioned installing an electric water pump from another VW (Corrodo, I think) to try to boost cooling. I am still waiting for the van to come back with the rebuilt turbo installed so I can start testing cooling again. I will post any results I get.
And yup, I do have a front mount oil cooler with 1/2 inch hoses but I loose oil pressure when the oil gets hot. If I disconnect the cooler OP stays high. Any suggestions?
I've always been wary of asking my oil pump to push the oil a extra 20'. As for options page 7 of this thread has a nice example.
-
I just added a fan to the cooler on page 7, controlled by a thermostatic switch in the oil flow. First I tried adding a small wing to draw more air into the vent and through the cooler but I actually got less airflow through there than without the wing.
I've yet to test it any more than a quick run up the hill outside of town. I need to get out on the highway for an hour or so to see if there's any difference...
Oh - I also bought a second fan for the intercooler, to be installed once I figure out how I want to control it.
Chris
-
Provided the radiator is in decent condition, the weak link is always getting the heat out of the engine and to the radiator.
Interesting discussion, my mechanic mentioned installing an electric water pump from another VW (Corrodo, I think) to try to boost cooling. I am still waiting for the van to come back with the rebuilt turbo installed so I can start testing cooling again. I will post any results I get.
I know that the European TDs came with an auxiliary coolant pump (inline at the oil cooler) which was thermostatically controlled. Has anyone tried this? Results?
-
Andrew, If an external oil cooler is present, would it work to by-pass the sandwich cooler in the summer? For example, route it thru a small radiator (motorcycle) and back to the block instead of thru the oil?
-
Ok, given what you say, would it make more sense to eliminate the stock sandwich cooler if other radiators are in it's place?
-
What gets me is that that gazillions of these were sold in Yurup, apparently without overheating trouble so there must be something different. If its not the radiator itself, maybe the extra flow through the stock rad because of the wider tunnel? Any measurements of that yet? Seems to me that could be resolved, at least partly, with higher output fans and a lower thermo switch.
Anyway, mine is set up with the FMOC, 1/2 inch armored hose and I deleted the stock oil cooler altogether and plugged the stock hoses. I use an oil thermostat just downstream of the take-off point on the block to allow for quick oil warm up. It doesn't seem to work any better if I connect these two hoses together or block them off. I was thinking that the additional water pump would be downstream of the block to add some oomph to the flow to the radiator.
-
witoke, I agree with your thoughts on a booster pump. These look great-
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps-list.aspx
-
I agree that introducing one into a stock system could result in strangeness, If I had the $ I'd do it this way-
Tear out the sandwich cooler, the thermostat, the impeller on the water pump, and all of the crossover hoses. put in an EWP at the inlet to the block, with the electronic control. The return pipe goes to the radiator. Electric booster pump for the heater core circuit. Electronically controlled fan at radiator by the same company. End of story, no more maze.
-
if you are looking for auxiliary pumps just google jabsco as they are the dogs dangly bits and there are 100s of variations and sizes but they are not cheep ,but they are long lasting [providing you never run when dry] + they are repairable and designed to be belt driven.
-
this is more what i had in mind: http://www.naautoparts.com/m8_view_item.html?m8:item=0%20392%20020%20024. (And as far as I know "bollocks" is not one of the proscribed seven words.)
Interesting thoughts Andrew, you are probably correct that odd flow patterns through the maze of pipes may result from a booster water pump. I have been thinking of placing it somewhere on the main line to the radiator but will need to monitor it carefully. As for overheating; I actually do get overheating under heavy load and high ambient temps. Like full camping load, 4 people and a long freeway hill in the high 90's F. But even regular freeway driving I am still running at at 3/4 gauge and I have to ease off the throttle to keep the temps acceptable on hills. It will drop to half on the downhill quite quickly so it really does seem as though the engine produces more heat than the cooling system can cope with when under heavy load.
Of course I have the additional problem that my egt's hit 1200 with no problem under any sort of freeway driving. This is something I am going to try to solve with more boost and maybe some changes to my IC. Or maybe I'll just buy a Toyota truck and a rooftop tent and let the van sit with my collection of crap/classic cars in the back yard. (Anybody want a nice '72 240Z with a '73 parts car, a '78 300d merc or an 83.5 Vanagon shell?)
-
But even regular freeway driving I am still running at at 3/4 gauge and I have to ease off the throttle to keep the temps acceptable on hills. It will drop to half on the downhill quite quickly so it really does seem as though the engine produces more heat than the cooling system can cope with when under heavy load.
Of course I have the additional problem that my egt's hit 1200 with no problem under any sort of freeway driving.
Can I ask what turbo and IP you are running? I had similar EGT problems before I learned that the "quality" turbo and IP I had bought from prothe were filled with cheap chinese parts and even the wrong camplate for an AAZ. My first notable drop in EGTs were when I swapped these parts out for quality ones. The second notable drop in EGTs happened after I had a better free flowing exhaust fabricated. As Andrew stated, if you are seeing 3/4 gauge just on freeway driving, it seems there is something wrong with your cooling system.
-
I am running the stock Vanagon jx turbo-diesel set up with both the original IP and turbo. Basically after being shafted by "Quality" German in Montclair Cali I had to have everything on the motor and the motor itself completely rebuilt. The water pump, oil pump, pressure cap, engine hoses, lines to the radiator etc are all new, block was hot tanked before being re-assembled, original copper radiator was rebuilt by a radiator company I have used for years. IP was rebuilt by this guy: www.vwdieselparts.com/. Turbo is stock KKK that I have just had rebuilt but was working fine before it blew. I think somewhere on this thread are details of what I did with exhaust and Saab IC.
I have had the radiator checked, it's been bled multiple times, water pump was checked for loose or slipping vanes, pressure cap is holding fine, thermostat is new and has been checked. Fans kick in at appropriate times on the rad. Compression is good, starts and runs perfectly, will pull a heavy trailer without issue in town, no oil in coolant or vice versa just overheats under load at highway speeds and the EGT issue seems intractable. Honestly I just don't know what else to do except to replace the radiator with a new aluminum one or a bigger one that I can shoehorn in there and try that.
I used to do all this myself but have farmed it out over the last few years as I am too busy with another big project. Mechanic is playing with the timing now to see what happens to EGT's, then I will add a boost adjuster valve and try 20 psi. I was willing to put a fair amount of work and money into this van as it is an '82 diesel westy with less than 60k total and no rust or accident damage on it but it is getting ridiculous and I am getting too frustrated to carry on at this stage. I am open to suggestions, including Molotov cocktails...
-
Reiney, meeting up would be great, it would help to look over someone else's engine set up and compare notes. It also sounds like there might be hope that this will actually work out, given a few different experiences. PM me for details and thanks.
Alex
-
I have used those pumps as circulating pumps on charge coolers and they work fine for that but i think they would strangle the flow for the purpose that you have in mind as they have 12 to 15mm internal diameter to connect to the 22mm o/d heater pipes,vw use them to increase the flow through the heater matrix.I have seen slightly larger ones on ebay from a company that dose a lot of charge coolers and they were reasonably priced but canot remeber what they are called
-
I think some of you maybe missing some points here.
3 different radiators fitted to the t3, the early, poxy metal one from the "CS" engines vans, coolant temp switches for the radiator at the top (clever, nice one VW)
the 34mm thick later plastic one from crappy "DF" engined 1.9 wasserleaker.
The 44mm thick daddy radiator from the 1.6TD and 2.1 wasserleaker.
Also, the TD has a much, much bigger 500W radiator cooling fan, and as noted factory TD vans have a different cab floor giving more room for said fan, and the air throughput.
I know that from experience, AAZ conversions with either the early CS radiator, or the poxy 34mm radiator is asking for trouble, even in our crap climate, where it's generally pissing down, temp gauge will float more than normal and usually sits just above LED.
80°c thermosta will go some way to addressing that.
Oil cooler, 5/8's pipe, thermostatic take off and mounted on the front is generally all thats needed in the UK, I like the 25 row cooler as it more or less fills up the space of the lower grill. Using one of those here usually sees oil temps pegged at 90° c.
Other thing I think your missing is the fact that factory 1.6TD did infact have an auxilliary water pump that switches on at 104°c but is not there to aid cooling but to prevent heat soak when the engine is turned off, on syncro models this switch is also linked to the turbo cooling fan fitted behind the left hand rear light that blows cool air from the rear pillar over the turbo.
Don't even bother trying to mount an oil cooler anywhere other than at the front of the radiator, they don't work.
-
Maybe look for a radiator fan/shroud from an air-conditioned van, they also have huge blowers on them. Sounds like a Cessna taking off on high... :o
-
I lived in the UK for a few years under the gentle hand of Mrs.Thatcher, suffice to say it is still a pleasure to hear a plain speaking Yorkshire-man's English. So I guess I'll throw away my ***e radiator and get a new one for a 2.1, preferably with the fans from an AC van. Thanks for the input Baxter, I know you have done a lot of work with these vans.
-
Other thing I think your missing is the fact that factory 1.6TD did infact have an auxilliary water pump that switches on at 104°c but is not there to aid cooling but to prevent heat soak when the engine is turned off, on syncro models this switch is also linked to the turbo cooling fan fitted behind the left hand rear light that blows cool air from the rear pillar over the turbo.
Can you share how this turbo cooling fan is fitted and what brand/model of fan is used? Since some of us are using smaller turbos for altitude, I think the cooling fan makes a ton of sense.
-
Okay.
-------------
251 959 455 L
200w - 305mm fan
used in DF/EY engined vans (low output 1.9 wasserleaker)
-------------
251 959 455 G
300w/200w - 305mm fan
Used in DG/DJ/MV/SP/SR/SS (DG is 1.9 carb wasserleaker, rest are 2.1l wasserleakers)
and in DF/EY with Air Con.
-------------
251 959 455 M
450w - 305mm fan
Used in KY (1.7d)
And in DG/DJ/MV/SP/SR/SS (DG is 1.9 carb wasserleaker, rest are 2.1l wasserleakers) with Air Con and Syncro
-------------
251 959 455 AA
500w/348mm fan
Used in JX and some KY (Factory 1.6TD and 1.7D respectivley)
Not used in anything else - hance raised cab floor
-------------
Hope that is of some use to you.
Looking at ETKA, I would have said the only radiators available to you were the early, crap metal one from the 1.6D "CS" engine, this is identified by the 2 coolant switches for the radiator fan at the top of the rad, and the later 44mm thick one, plastic tanks, ally tubes and fins with the radiator fan switch at the bottom.
If you have an early 1.6D "CS" van and want to convert to the later, better system then there are a few things you need to do.
1. cut the upper mounting panel from a late van and weld it into your early van.
2. Use the later lower mounts.
3. Rewire the fan relay to worth with 3 wires instead of 4 (or just swap the loom out of a late van)
4.Swap the radiator hoses, early 1.6D "CS" vans have 32mm metal coolant pipes, later better cooling systems have 38mm plastic pipes.
Swapping to the later style also means enlarging the holes in the chassis to get the bigger bore pipes through, or re-routing the heaters hoses.
-
For you turbo cooling nerds.
(http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/images/simon/forums/GTD/squirrelfan.jpg.jpg)
Picture is misleading, the engine sits to the other side of the outlet pipe.
-
Thanks for the part numbers and pictures. I'm on it.... And will report back once I get it all done. (Won't be right away, i have a big-bore kit for my motorcycle arriving this week, that's going to be too much fun to put off.
Alex
-
Thanks for the part numbers and pictures. I'm on it.... And will report back once I get it all done. (Won't be right away, i have a big-bore kit for my motorcycle arriving this week, that's going to be too much fun to put off.
Alex
My riding partner Rick did a big bore kit in his bike, it is sweet, I want one.
-
Checking ETKA for radiator part numbers and I found this:
(3) 068121253E
radiator / for vehicle use in warm climates / for models with towing facility / for vehicles with air condit.
/ DG,SP
That's got to be the one for me and my van, I am going to look at our local VW junk yard to see if I can find the mounts, shroud, heavy duty fan etc.
-
Picture is misleading, the engine sits to the other side of the outlet pipe.
Do you have any photos of the auxillary pump and blower (item #1) installed in a TD Vanagon? If so, I'd definitely appreciate seeing some.
-
Checking ETKA for radiator part numbers and I found this:
(3) 068121253E
radiator / for vehicle use in warm climates / for models with towing facility / for vehicles with air condit.
/ DG,SP
That's got to be the one for me and my van, I am going to look at our local VW junk yard to see if I can find the mounts, shroud, heavy duty fan etc.
That's the part number for the 44mm thick one, the same as is fitted to any 2.1 or 1.6TD
-
Still tinkering...
I put maybe 1700 miles on the van over the past two weeks, with another 1500 coming up next week.
The oil temps are well under control. I experimented with some simple aluminum wings to draw more air in through the vents. Using my little handheld windmeter, I actually recorded a lower wind speed through the oil cooler than before adding the wings. After that, I added a thermostatically controlled 9" fan and I haven't seen oil temps above about 225 degrees now, with 200 degrees being most common under normal conditions.
I have another one of those fans for the intercooler but I still haven't quite figured out how to control it, or at what temp it should come on.
I replaced my clapped out camper battery with a bank of the SLA batteries and most of the electrical issues in the pyrometer are gone. It still shuts off with the headlights on and acts funky when the cooling fan comes on, but it's much better than before. Next up is to replace the main power lead into the fuse box with a length of fine strand 8ga. wire. There is evidence of the OEM power wire getting hot in the past so it probably needs to be replaced regardless.
It's still not a rocket ship and I feel like 60 mph is about the limit but I can pull most high speed hills in fourth these days. It's definitely more pleasurable to drive...
I've been seeing a consistent 25ish mpg as well. I had been on the fence about swapping out for a 4x4 Cummins Dodge but the van is shining again.
Here's my solution to measuring internal pump pressure, as I've been chasing some issues in my Caddy:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P1300713.jpg)
Chris
-
Good for you for sticking with it Chris. I have finally given up. Just bought a 95 Ford van with a Quigley 4x4 conversion and will be putting my VW Westfalia 1.6td van up for sale in a couple of weeks when I get the time to clean it out a bit. The ford is interesting after driving VW's for decades, it feels as if every control is buffered by large rubber bands. Everything, brakes, steering, handling, is rubbery and vague. But it has a proper low ratio 4x4, AC is dead quiet and feels like it's not even trying going 70 on the highway. Above 85 the vagueness makes it a bit scary but then I don't think I have balls big enough to have tried to even get my VW up to that speed. Got a Moab/Maze off-road trip for the Ford planned at the end of the month.
I will be selling the van as well as decades of VW crap/irresistable treasure later in the spring. Like Syncro rear locking differential, 72 Thing gas heater, 5 Eurovan 16 inch steel wheels with good Hackaloogie snow tyres etc etc. How did I end up with all this!
Keep up the entertaining and creative work y'all, I'm getting too old... I want a car I CAN'T work on. First car I've ever owned that has power windows and locks. Can't wait for one to break.
-
I was dead-set on driving my Van off a cliff and buying a Sprinter a few years ago, as I was making 25 mph on I-40 heading home from Taos. Power, AC, cruise control... I hear ya man! It comes and goes for me these days but the Westy's been treating me well and I'm slowly marking projects off the big list. I don't think I'll ever be able to afford a Quigley or Sportsmobile though.
I was just offered an '82 MBZ 300TD wagon for a good price. The Caddy might get replaced as I slowly move up the ladder of luxury...
Chris
-
Whatever you do, don't miss out the mercedes if it's in reasonably rust free condition. My 240d is one of the nicest cars I've ever owned and built like a swiss watch, 265K miles and still purrs like a kitten. And the Estates are that much nicer. I have a '78 300 sedan parts car if you need anything. As for Quigleys, it needn't cost much more than a decent VW van honestly, though you might have to spend a bit of time finding the right one. Next step for me is to do the camper and pop top conversions and I'll have the poor man's Sportsmobile.
Gotta sell the VW first though.
-
The oil temps are well under control. I experimented with some simple aluminum wings to draw more air in through the vents. Using my little handheld windmeter, I actually recorded a lower wind speed through the oil cooler than before adding the wings. After that, I added a thermostatically controlled 9" fan and I haven't seen oil temps above about 225 degrees now, with 200 degrees being most common under normal conditions.
Hey Chris-
So do you think the aluminum wings brought your oil temps down or adding the fan? My oil cooler is in the front of my van but doesn't have a fan. I see 260 F when climbing long grades at altitude (between 7000 - 10000 ft).
Bill
-
The wings were worthless... The fan was key. Used to be I'd see 260+ on flat ground if I held boost up around 15psi for too long. Now it barely creeps above 220 climbing hills. I was really surprised at just how fast oil temps rise with boost.
This last trip was Lone Pine > Costa Mesa > Paso Robles > Cambria > Pebble Beach > Salinas > LA > Costa Mesa > Lone Pine. Mileage according to mapquest was about 1300, add in another 100 for side trips - intentional or not - and the van ran flawless. I saw 25.8 mpg last night on my latest fill-up.
Now I'm itching for a hightop, TDi and Syncro. I'm likely to give up my house in Lone Pine and would like to go full-time in the Westy, stealth style at the beach while I'm going to school.
I'm probably heading up to Corvallis for spring break, too but I might take the caddy on that trip - 12 hours each way from Lone Pine - and I want to see what mileage I can get over that distance.
Chris
-
Yup... What Andrew said.
-
I always wondered about making a tail light spacer that allows the arit to exit to the rear & then blocking off the area into the engine bay.
-
I stepped up to 3" exhaust, out the left side, in an attempt to cut back on tailgate goo... It was amusing before but it's loud now, espcially if I'm driving alongside a wall or something:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4220775.jpg)
Also I'm making progress on engine bracket v2.0. This one probably won't work as well with the Van/Quantum turbo configuration... but that's not really my goal on this go-round:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4220770.jpg)
-
I'm back to a fiber head gasket, after 4 MLS AAZ gaskets. The last one made about 18 months before springing a leak... the problem I'm having is sealing up the extra oil return. This last time I used a piece of a rubber truck tire patch - it looks like it reacted with the coolant and turned into a soft, sticky, gooey mess that eventually allowed coolant to leak out. I'm hoping the fiber gasket with studs will stand up to max boost to 18psi. At this point I'm not sold on the MLS upgrade on a mechanical engine...
World's most expensive coolant hose plugs... to properly finish the OEM oil cooler delete:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P4300848.jpg)
My version of an oil separator, in an attempt to cut down on smoke and rear door goo - I still need to chase down a 3/4" OD spring to stuff in the one breather hose that's beginning to crimp on that tight radius:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/P5100853.jpg)
Chris