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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: DieselKraut on May 19, 2008, 09:59:35 pm
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I have a '80 Rait w/ a n/a 1.5. I just got the car a few weeks ago. When I got the car it had to be pull started. The guy I bought it form said it ran great and all of a sudden it wouldn't start w/ out being pull started. I drove the car 90 miles home. Car runs great. doesn't smoke while cruising. It will pick up speed when climbing hills. After getting it home it stated six or seven times. But now it first it just cranks and nothing. Then it trys to fire off. I get white smoke then black. It started a few times but once I shut it off it would just crank and not try to start. The cold start lever doesn't seem to change anything while cranking or running. After sitting there is no air in the fuel supply line to the filter. I have replaced the fuel filter. I had a set of new nozzles so I put them in. While they were out I cranked it and pluged the hole w/ my hand. Seemed to have good compresstion. Don't have the comp test adapter yet to check yet. The glow plugs work and the IP fuel solenoid works. Today it finally started after cranking for a long period of time. I shut it off and it started right up. then I lost power to the IP fuel valve. I hard wired it to the battery but by the time I did that it just cranks and nothing again. Any information would but very appreciated!
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Update. I have checked vavle adjustment. Some valves are in spec and some are out. I check timing. I found the IP gear was out one tooth. I moved the pully one tooth. It still looked about a half tooth off. When I tryed to start it cold is started right up. Thought I had the problem solved. I shut off the engine and it restarted. Then I lost power to the IP shut off valve. Started and ran. I drove around town for about 30 min. Engine seemed to have move power w/ cold start lever pulled out. After driving around I shut it off and tryed starting it again. Nothing. It cranks fine but doesn't even try to start!
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Ok I'm lost still. W/ the cam and IP locked into position my IP sproket is off one tooth. The IP timing mark and and brkt mark are lined up. Shouldn't the sprocket tooth w/ the mark line up w/ the brkt and IP? The mark is one tooth counter clockwise from the brkt mark. Please someone help!
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You need a dial indicator to time it properly, the marks don't mean much on the pump and bracket. You should have a clear line between the filter and pump, not before the filter. You can get air leaks at the filter. Also any loose or cracked hoses can cause air leaks. If the return can suck air, you won't necessarily see fuel, but when you turn the engine off, the pump can get air in it. I had this happen to me.
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I've got got the dial indicator but I don't have the allen wrech at home to lock it down so I can't get a true reading. I've read about the yellow dots on the timing advance to figure out what the pump timing should be. Where is the dot at on it? As far as the clear line theres no air in it. there was a small amount traveling through the line but that cleared up.
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Just caught in your first writeup that you put in new nozzles. Did you then have the injectors pop tested? You could be working against injectors that are off as well as the valve lash that is off. For your reference I just timed my pump after I put on a rebuilt head. Everything lined up, my indicator read 37. I had to turn the pump to get 95. If you are off like that, that might be part of your problem.
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I haven't had the old nozzles pop tested yet. I tryrunning the over head tonight. I planed on moving the adj shims around and I had a few others but I didn't have the right thicknesses to get all of them right. So now I'm waiting to get more shims.
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I just checked the IP timing. I am at 1.016mm w/ a yellow dot pump. That is with my cam and IP locks in place. But when I looked at the crank its about 1/8 inch past TDC. How do you hold the crank in place when you set belt tension. Every time I tightened the belt the crank moved off TDC. Sec question. How are you guys getting to the bottom IP bolt? I have A/C so all the brackets are getting in the way. I can get on it w/ a 1/4 drive socket but when I try to lossen it it slips off.
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When you tighten the belt take the pump lock out and also leave the cam gear lose. You have to set the pump timing advance after everything is tightened down.
As for the bottom bolt, do you mean the one on the pump bracket at the shaft end of the pump or the head?
If you mean at the shaft end, you loosen off the nut from the gear end, not from under the pump
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Yes the bolt on the shaft end. I have a square captured nut on the IP brkt. I think I can get the bolt with a crows foot from the front of the engine. I got the belt timing issue taken care after getting a two jaw puller.
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I've never seen the bottom bolt needing to be removed from the pump side. VW must hate you. You should swap that bracket off while the pump is off to make future timing/timing belt adjustments easier
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If I had a digital camera I would post a pic. I have a 1.6 parts engine. I'll have to check it and see what the brkt is like on it. Can you leave the bottom bolt in and still adj the pump. Which way do you move the pump to advance the timing? I am guessing rotate the pump counter clockwise from the frt of the engine.
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I was finally able to get my lower IP bolt out. I set my IP timing to .045". Which is 1.15mm if I did the math right. Tryed starting it and nothing. I cranked it long enough to get the air out of the system. When the glow plugs are cycled a few times it acts like it wants to start but wont. Head is warm around the glow plugs. All I get is lots of white smoke and lots of blow by. Still waiting on comp adapter to check comp. Is there anything I'm missing. Planning on installing new glow plugs when I check comp.
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This is a pic of the bottom IP botl w/ a captured nut. I was finaly able to get it free.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0001.jpg)
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Still couldn't get car to start on its own. So I pull started it. Started right up. After getting it warm it idled fine. thought I would take a cruise in the contry. When I came up to a stop sign I noticed it was running rough at an idle. So I headed back into town. At the next stop sign it died. Tried restarting it but nothing. Had to have someone come and pull start me again. I turned up the idle screw so it wouldn't die again. when I got home and pulled in the driveway it started to run away. I put in gear and let out on the clutch and brought the rpms down. But then it did it again. I'm thinking about pulling the pump and have it rebuilt. Anyone have any ideas as to whats wrong? Cranks fast enough, glow plugs work but wont start on its own. Runs good going down the road w/ no smoke and has good power.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0004-1.jpg)
My just sitting waiting to be pulled.
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when I got home and pulled in the driveway it started to run away. I put in gear and let out on the clutch and brought the rpms down. But then it did it again.
The engine is most likely running on its own oil and at the least needs new rings and at the most should be fully rebuilt.
How much oil has it used in how many miles since you have been driving it?
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When I got the car I checked the oil. It was right at the top of the mark. I drove it 90 miles home and checked it again. Oil level didn't move a bit. I've probably drove the car a totle of 10 miles since I have had it. Needed pull started every time. If the rings were bad wouldn't it be smoking going down the road at 60mph? I have read about troubles w/ the 1.5 IP having problems. Where they start to rev the engine up like its running away. Is there any truth to this?
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I don't know about any 1.5 IP specifics.
I would have guessed the oil consumption would have been way higher if it was running on its own oil. A compression test will tell a lot when you get the adapter.
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If you are able to turn the runaway engine off it is most likely your pump
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If your timing is off still and your injectors are not calibrated combined with the idle screw you turned in you could get a runaway.
Back out the max fuel and idle screws.
Have you ever timed by ear?
I don't recommend it to often, it sounds to me like you timing is to retarded thus the hard starting then you tuned the idle screw up to get it to idle and it reached a warm up point where it went past where the idle could drop down (screw turned in) so it kept racing.
I only say this because I kinda went though a similar situation.
I set my timing @ 1.02mm, all new pump (rebuilt) and new injectors and thought it was on. Hard starting SOB it was, I was able to drive it for about 3 weeks as it ran ok and idled fine once I turned the idle screw and max fuel screw up, I decided to check the timing again and it as at .35mm :shock:
So I reset it and check then re checked then started it then rechecked it again and it was off. what the heck was going on I thought.
Once again I set it but I set it to 1.07 this time instead of 1.02.
It sounded like metal to metal knocking it was so bad. Loosened the IP fired it up (made a reference mark on the IP and mount) and backed it off till it was a tad noisier than originally but WAY less than the 1.07 setting.
Locked everything down and went for a drive. Smoke was down ran smother and when cold it started right up now.
In my situation a different flywheel was to blame originally, my TDC mark was off and I wasn't aware of it. I switched to a new lightened flywheel and was checking the TDC marks when I discovered the problem.
Then as you know it only takes a tiny little amount of movement to make a huge difference where it ends up.
Hope that helps and doesn't confuse ya more.. I hate it when i go off like that..
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Ok heres' where I stand. As soon as I get my comp adapter I am goin to run a comp test. I was told I should have it by the end of the week. But I've heard that one before to. If my comp is good I'm pulling the IP and having it rebuilt. If comp is bad it looks like I'm pulling the engine and doing a overhaul. As far as the runaway I wondered if it was due to me turning up the idle screw.
zukgod1, Did your IP timing change due to your turning up to the idle and max fuel srew up?
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Harbor freight sells complete compression testers for ~$30, it might be worth the money depending on which bits you have or don't have now.
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increasing the idle should not cause a run away. The max fuel will cause a run away if incorrectly adjusted though. Don't bother playing with the screws on the pump until you at least have it timed right.
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Well I got my Compression Adapter. I remover my inj lines and nozzles. I noticed that there was fuel in the heat shields. I just thought it was from me cranking the engine but then I relized #1 was dry. No fuel at all. Kinda puzzled about that. I ran two test. First was dry then one wet. Outside temp was around 60F.
First Dry Sec Wet
1 190 1 260
2 260 2 280
3 200 3 220
4 75 ouch! 4 100 CRAP!
Looks like I get to look forward to a weekend drinkin beer and pulling a engine. So does anyone know any where to get a complete overhaul kit and a good price. I've looked at Parts Place, Inc. they have several options for kits.
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Seems like your valves are kaput.
myke_w is the guy to talk to for rebuild parts
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i'm goin to pull my head tomorrow to see how bad my cylinders are. Does anyone know where I can find 1.5 over sized pistons and rings? I can find standards but no overs.
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Well I finally was able to pull my head tonight. When I took off my air cleaner I found the air box full of oil. It was clean when I left on my last drive. I was surpised at how easy my head bolts came out. I did have one intake bolt head round on me. Things aren't as bad as I thought they might be. I was figuring on more carbin build up. The top of the pistons are pretty clean. The cracks are pertty small between the valves so thats one good thing. #4 piston looks like it had the intake valve very close or kissing it. Theres also something that looks like a crack on top of the piston. I guess I will find out tomorrow when I remove the pistons. I'll post pics of the pistons when I get them out.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0051-1.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0060-1.jpg) (http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0058-1.jpg) (http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0059-1.jpg) (http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0061-1.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0052.jpg)
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Well I just got my head apart and found more trouble. My Cam, sadles and caps are scored. Great! Pics don't show it to well but there no where near smooth. Now what are my options? Is this normal? What would you guys do about this problem?
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0078-1.jpg)(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0076-1.jpg)(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0075-1.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0070-1.jpg)(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0072-1.jpg)(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0073-1.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0074-1.jpg)
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I just got my lower end apart. All I have to say is wow! How on God's green earth that engine ran is beond me. Rings were toast! #1,2, and 4 had broken rings. The cyl walls are scored pretty good. #4 is worn pretty good. The top of the cyl is a lot thicker were the rings don't ride. #4 rod bearing is all down to brass and the crank journal is a bit rough. I also found a piece of metal in the oil pan. It feels like lead. Its flexable and soft. It looks like a spun bearing. I pulled #2 and 4 main bearing. They look fine. I'll post pics later today.
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I just went through this about 2 weeks ago. Keep at it. It is very satisfying to have it fire right up after the rebuild. And even more satisfying when your oil level stays a the 'full' line for weeks at a time.
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I was talkin to a guy yesterday about my engine and if it needed bored. He said over sized pistons are not avalible for the 1.5. He said I could use 1.6 rods and pistons. Is this correct? I won't know juat how bad my cylinders are untill the end of the week. I'm hoping work will let me bring home the bore gauge.
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When I pulled the pistons I noticed there was a lot of crankshaft end play. Well I figured out why. I also figured out what was in the bottom of my oil pan. Its a piece of bearing for my IM shaft. The shaft looks ok. Good thing I've been talkin to a guy I know about buyin a '83 Quantum 1.6 TD from him. I guess I'll buy it and put a TD in its place.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0098.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0108.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0105.jpg)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm141/CS147J111170/IMG_0103.jpg)