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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: pgringo on February 04, 2012, 11:09:07 pm
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:D ok, since i'll be starting from scratch, i'm wondering what would be the ultimate setup for a 1.6td motor to horseshoe into a mk1. i'd love some suggestions or chewouts. what i've come to understand as a starting point:
1.6td longblock
head studs
gasser intake or custom log
vnt ?? turbo
what injection pump? glegor (fixed! ;) ), you said something about a peugeot 505 turbo ip?
injectors?
is there a higher output alternator?
cam?
don't get too mad, but i'm not interested in changing crank, rods, or pistons.
:-*
yes, it's saturday night & i'm sitting at home on teh interwebz benchracing.
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High amp alternator robs horsepower.
Go lowest amp if no a/c and no rear window grid -
or lose/incapacitate those options.
Port Polish Gasket Match head/manifolds.
A big wide intercooler instead of a plastic grill - with a VW emblem tagged to it in the center for effect.
Cone air filters instead of headlights. Dual Ram Air
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AAZ head if you can get your hands on one
Big valves and porting so deep you'll need to tig your head back up due to water leaks
Big turbo, VNT, compound turbos or compound VNT's depending on how far you want to go
ARP 204-4706 head studs and MLS gasket
High amp alternator? Try low amp alternator hooked up to a switch so it disconnects at wide open throttle! :D
Air/water intercooler
Block girdle
Injection pump depends on above goals. 9, 10, 11 or 12mm head. Giles can build whatever monster pump you can dream of or slap a Cummins 4bt IP on and replace fuelling finesse with dumping gobs of raw oil in
Does Dr Diesel still have/make cams? Him or possibly ABA cam (I was tempted to try this, multiple issues though) or Colt Cams could probably make you a beautiful custom grind
All of that could be buckets full of fun in a mk1... hey! I just said a rhyme! I wish I could do that all the time...
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:D ok, since i'll be starting from scratch, i'm wondering what would be the ultimate setup for a 1.6td motor to horseshoe into a mk1. i'd love some suggestions or chewouts. what i've come to understand as a starting point:
1.6td longblock
head studs
gasser intake or custom log
vnt ?? turbo
what injection pump? gregor, you said something about a peugeot 505 turbo ip?
injectors?
is there a higher output alternator?
cam?
don't get too mad, but i'm not interested in changing crank, rods, or pistons.
:-*
yes, it's saturday night & i'm sitting at home on teh interwebz benchracing.
you want a daily driver or a powerhouse?
they are 2 different things.. my engine as it is now, with just one turbo, and with a turned up VW pump, is quite a blast to drive..
its enough power to smoke ricers and hemis and that sort of thing, but doscile enough to be street driven no problem..
for all out power? start off with a 1.9, or a TDI better yet..
and if your going to try and find a Pug 505TD pump, good luck. they are more rare than a diesel auto starter.. only reason i said anything about them, is because i have one, and its ALMOST set up to run on a VW with no mods..
im going to add a T3 hybrid to my VNT15, in a compound setup also, and i will need to convert to the metal gasket, and stud the block..
as for the head bolts/gasket/that sort of thing, ive been running stock head bolts and a fiber gasket for LOTS AND LOTS of miles now.. only issues ive had so far, were with a 1.5D, and because the block cracked.. the gasket was fine until the head lifted, then it crapped coolant and oil everywhere..
and im with these guys, if your building a power house, use a small perm-mag alternator off a tractor or something.. think palm sized.
and anyone who isnt familiar with my user name on Vortex..
G L E G O R...
its my last name, and its regularly butchered.. please atleast spell it right..
there is a company, GREGOR BOATS.. our family despises them..
we build GLEGOR boats.. and they are much nicer than most commercially available boats..
so, please.. its GLEGOR.. theres an L in there.
THANK YOU!!
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Mr. Glegor, How much boost are you running?
I don't get it with the alternator size. Isn't drag a function of the energy being produced? True, if you're cranking 90 amps then it will take a few horses but if it's only putting out 30 amps then how is that worse that a 65 amp unit putting out 30 amps? With my SVO heaters, I need the big unit. The extra pound of weight is a small price to pay for not having a dead battery. However, you don't need more that you need. If you start it once and drive it 50 miles then a 10 amp unit would do. Depends.
As far as a MK1 turbo goes. Watch for Exh down pipe leaks. It will cook your heater hoses and warm up the interior a bunch.
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The larger alternators, I believe, physically have more rotating mass even when it's in an idle state... To spin that mass, you require some more energy.
Anyway, what it comes down to is either having a bare-bones car where people say "wow, is a diesel really that fast?" or having something that drives like a modern car, has (most of) the conveniences of a modern car but looks like it rolled straight out of 1978. I would take the latter, after having owned the former (although I should admit my car isn't too crazy with modifications) because at the end of the day it is still a diesel VW and still slower than almost any car popular among "speed enthusiasts." After a while it sucks not having the creature comforts like A/C or a radio that doesn't sound like crap.
I have an intercooled 1.6 TD in a Golf, incidentally...
Here's what I would do if I had to turn back time... in an mk1:
-mech-TDI, hopped up pump
-intercooled
-large exhaust, good free flowing muffler. This makes a difference.
-working a/c (power steering is not necessary in these cars though)
-electrical system that can support a good sound system
-5 speed
-suspension that handles well.
Also, TD Pugs are out there, I see them pop up every once in a while including non-runners in the $500 range.
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you want a daily driver or a powerhouse?
powerhouse of a weekend car. i'm planning on placing this into a cabriolet. (lots of dead ones turn up for sale under $1k) sun...fun...all that stuff.
for all out power? start off with a 1.9, or a TDI better yet..
no tdi. i'm all about idi. i'm not familiar with the 1.9. is it mechanically controlled? idi? will it bolt into a gas car how a 1.5 or 1.6 will?
and if your going to try and find a Pug 505TD pump, good luck. they are more rare than a diesel auto starter.. only reason i said anything about them, is because i have one, and its ALMOST set up to run on a VW with no mods..
a good friend of mine is a mechanic from france. he may have one in a parts car or know where one is nearby. that's why i referenced your 505 comment. so i should just go with a tweaked stock IP, yes?
im going to add a T3 hybrid to my VNT15, in a compound setup also, and i will need to convert to the metal gasket, and stud the block..
i'm going single turbo, so i was wondering what size vnt should be run
i'm just trying to figure all this stuff out before i start spending money on it. i've made misinformed mistakes too many times before with too many other projects. :-[
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Mr. Glegor, How much boost are you running?
I don't get it with the alternator size. Isn't drag a function of the energy being produced? True, if you're cranking 90 amps then it will take a few horses but if it's only putting out 30 amps then how is that worse that a 65 amp unit putting out 30 amps? With my SVO heaters, I need the big unit. The extra pound of weight is a small price to pay for not having a dead battery. However, you don't need more that you need. If you start it once and drive it 50 miles then a 10 amp unit would do. Depends.
As far as a MK1 turbo goes. Watch for Exh down pipe leaks. It will cook your heater hoses and warm up the interior a bunch.
as of tonight, im running NO BOOST.. my turbo bit the dust today, 100 miles from home, in Portland..
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what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.) as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.
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what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.) as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.
TREVOR!! just who i was looking for..
i need your turbo wisdom.. my VNT is dead.. probably not going to replace it with a VNT unless i get one for a song..
anyways, i have at my disposal:
a T2 off a nissan gasser
a T3 off a 2.5 CHRY gasser (much larger T3 than the stock diesel unit)
a T3 off a 2.3 Pug TD
a TD04 off a 2.2 CHRY
a K24 off a VW 2.0TD
a K26 off an Audi quattro
a T4 off a 4-53 Detroit diesel..
i know that doesnt tell you SH## without numbers and stuff, but what do you think would be the best turbo(s) to replace mine with?
i was just getting ready to go compounds.. now my VNT is not rebuildable.. over 1/4" of radial shaft play, and almost 1/8" of axial play..
it grinds, scrapes, spools and unspools on its own, and even seized up at one point.. and MAN, did it puke its guts all over my engine bay..
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Use the k24 off the TD5 audi. It is the same as the k24 on a 1.6TD. Compound the k24 and k26, and don't use a wastegate one the k26, it would be neat to see what kind of top end power that would make.
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powerhouse of a weekend car. i'm planning on placing this into a cabriolet. (lots of dead ones turn up for sale under $1k) sun...fun...all that stuff.
Make sure the exhaust exits well clear of the car, lol.
no tdi. i'm all about idi. i'm not familiar with the 1.9. is it mechanically controlled? idi? will it bolt into a gas car how a 1.5 or 1.6 will?
Why? Directly injected diesels are just better technology. More power from the same displacement with less fuel consumption and less emissions. I don't think anybody even makes indirect injected diesels anymore. That's why I suggest an m-TDi, which is a hybrid TD and TDI pump bolted onto a TDI that gives you a TDI which all mechanical, no electronics.
There is the 1.9 IDI (mechanical) which you asked about. They were the next step in the evolution of VW diesels between the 1.6 and the TDI. They were not sold in the U.S., as far as I know. They are found in CANADA. They came on mk3 cars before the TDI was introduced. A few have made it across the border. All transverse, watercooled VWs 4-bangers will bolt in an mk1, going up to about mk4 generation stuff. I can't remember when the cut-off is but there is a wide range of engines that will fit the early cars. Even if the mounts are different, the blocks will accept the older mounts.
If you want to use an engine from the same time period as your Cabriolet, use a 1.6 TD.
i'm going single turbo, so i was wondering what size vnt should be run.
i'm just trying to figure all this stuff out before i start spending money on it. i've made misinformed mistakes too many times before with too many other projects. :-[
In that case, read the current thread about VNTs and decide for yourself if you want to go that route. Some of us do not favor them.
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AAZ head if you can get your hands on one
Dont - just don't.
If there is one piece of advice I really regret taking from this forum it's the BS spouted about the 1.9 head. It'll run like a sack of plop and be useless as a daily.
Unless you like driving something that clacks really bad because of the necessary advance or smokes like hell when first started up (yeah yeah you can run block heaters etc - but that really isn't practical for a usable vehicle
In all other respects you have outlined my previous 1.6 engine build
ported and flowed
vnt
long runner twin plenum manifold
girdle
I ran a 10mm pump - it was noisy and pointless as the 9mm will supply easily enough juice
intercooler
arp head bolts
90a high output alt - it's load on the motor will only be proportional to he electrical load placed on it - there is no real difference in practice.
Good luck with the build.
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no tdi. i'm all about idi. i'm not familiar with the 1.9. is it mechanically controlled? idi? will it bolt into a gas car how a 1.5 or 1.6 will?
Why? Directly injected diesels are just better technology. More power from the same displacement with less fuel consumption and less emissions. I don't think anybody even makes indirect injected diesels anymore. That's why I suggest an m-TDi, which is a hybrid TD and TDI pump bolted onto a TDI that gives you a TDI which all mechanical, no electronics.
omgwtf i had no clue people were building mtdi motors. thank you! i've been putting all my energy into learning the 1.5 & 1.6 motors because they were all mechanical. time to go back to school (i already found the faq). shoot, i've seen running tdi cars with no title selling for $1k.
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what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.) as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.
My guy said the stock exhaust wasn't that bad. There wasn't much to gain flow wise, maybe different ports all together would make the difference. Here is the flow chart of my head in stock and ported conditions. Intake gained almost 30% and exhaust around 10%.
(http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/21/d32b370c5d4d44c5950378f28ea121a6/l.jpg)
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The downside of the exhaust - is the manifold itself.
Here is an idea ...
(http://i42.tinypic.com/359h25y.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/qqzadh.jpg)
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what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.) as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.
TREVOR!! just who i was looking for..
i need your turbo wisdom.. my VNT is dead.. probably not going to replace it with a VNT unless i get one for a song..
anyways, i have at my disposal:
a T2 off a nissan gasser
a T3 off a 2.5 CHRY gasser (much larger T3 than the stock diesel unit)
a T3 off a 2.3 Pug TD
a TD04 off a 2.2 CHRY
a K24 off a VW 2.0TD
a K26 off an Audi quattro
a T4 off a 4-53 Detroit diesel..
i know that doesnt tell you SH## without numbers and stuff, but what do you think would be the best turbo(s) to replace mine with?
i was just getting ready to go compounds.. now my VNT is not rebuildable.. over 1/4" of radial shaft play, and almost 1/8" of axial play..
it grinds, scrapes, spools and unspools on its own, and even seized up at one point.. and MAN, did it puke its guts all over my engine bay..
t2 probably be fine for a small turbo but that is all
dodge t3 is the same as powered by spearcos turbo except for that it has the newer turbine wheel(same as vws and basically any car that got a t3 starting after 1983 or so) the new turbine wheel had a smaller in and was lighter so it spooled up faster this what a turbo company told me. its a 45 trim t3 with .48 a/r exhaust housing
pug t3 http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=689 assuming this forum is correct then this turbo is a 40 trim t3 with a .36 a/r exhaust housing(same as vw but vw is a 35 trim compressor) and this turbo has the older larger turbine wheel.
td04 do u mean te04? if some my friend has one on his rabbit it runs really well but he doesn't have a governor mod or anything and he was having trouble with the wastegate and clutch, so aside from that it is way faster now but still nothing really conclusive, from the compressor map tho it looks like a good mid sized turbo, but the dodge t3 compressor looks way better.
k24 from audi, from what i understand its the same as vw, good turbo for a 1.6 but we all know its limits
k26 off an audi, good turbo but not on a diesel cause its not efficient at high boost pressures only at lower boost higher flow.
t4, u know that things too big haha.
if i were you i'd go with the dodge t3 or the pug t3, dodge has the bigger compressor so better flow and better compressor map, but the pug has the smaller a/r turbine housing so it would spool faster assuming the larger turbine wheel doesn't hurt spool that much. u could even do a hybrid, and slap the dodge compressor on the pug exhaust side, easy as well. or even try the dodge compressor on the t2 exhaust side. i don't know the specs of the t2 but if u look how much hp they can get from them stock u can get an idea of how much the t2 exhaust flows, if its around 200hp then itd be a good match on the dodge compressor.
but i will warn you, i just understand turbo sizing, i dont have experience trying all this stuff. so no real world reviews(except on te04 and k24) we all know that not much research has been done in the way of vw diesel turbos, so it still all up in the air and an experiment
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might as well experiment on mine to. im up for compounds :o
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what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.) as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.
My guy said the stock exhaust wasn't that bad. There wasn't much to gain flow wise, maybe different ports all together would make the difference. Here is the flow chart of my head in stock and ported conditions. Intake gained almost 30% and exhaust around 10%.
i have heard the same thing about the gas sized valves of 33mm that the stock sized is actually all thats worth going to because any larger and the port of the head is actually the restriction not the size of the valve, and since the gas and diesel heads are so similar (especially the heron 1.6gti heads) i would think there is something to gain with going to the gasser sized valves and heavy porting. heron had 40mm intake and 33mm exhaust, perhaps we could benefit from these sized valves, or even just 38 and 33.
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Yeah, what is our stock size in the 1.6 and 1.9 IDI's? I will probably go bigger next time around.
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1.6 has 34 and 27.
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Yeah, what is our stock size in the 1.6 and 1.9 IDI's? I will probably go bigger next time around.
1.6 is 34mm in 31mm ex
1.9 is 36mm in 31mm ex
Tdi is same as aaz but slightly different lengths
It's be interesting to see how they'd run with these mods. I talked to my machinist and I asked if a valve is close in length within 1-3mm if they'd work by shimming and trimming the underside of the lifter some but he said no its gotta be close like less than .5mm but he said custom valves are not so bad 30-40 a valve which is bad but not outrageous certainly affordable. I wonder if the heron valves would work u can get a nice set from Bildon with stems cut down near the valve head for better flow and could even use the taped gasser guides
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and if your going to try and find a Pug 505TD pump, good luck. they are more rare than a diesel auto starter.. only reason i said anything about them, is because i have one, and its ALMOST set up to run on a VW with no mods..
Has anyone actually put a Peugeot 505 TD pump or parts from the Peugeot pump in a VW 1.6 TD? What were the results?
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My air cooled guy gets stainless blanks and undercuts them himself. That is where I am going to go. IIRC 3 years ago my valves cost under 8.00 each.
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My air cooled guy gets stainless blanks and undercuts them himself. That is where I am going to go. IIRC 3 years ago my valves cost under 8.00 each.
Do you know what material his blanks are made of?
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My air cooled guy gets stainless blanks and undercuts them himself. That is where I am going to go. IIRC 3 years ago my valves cost under 8.00 each.
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and if your going to try and find a Pug 505TD pump, good luck. they are more rare than a diesel auto starter.. only reason i said anything about them, is because i have one, and its ALMOST set up to run on a VW with no mods..
Has anyone actually put a Peugeot 505 TD pump or parts from the Peugeot pump in a VW 1.6 TD? What were the results?
not that im aware of.. when i posted up that i had a Pug pump, and wanted info about it, i got nothing.. nobody knows JACK about the Pug pump..
should work fine once you deal with the bracket issues, and change the delivery valves..
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My air cooled guy gets stainless blanks and undercuts them himself. That is where I am going to go. IIRC 3 years ago my valves cost under 8.00 each.
Even the stock valves are stainless! 21-4N, 23-8N, 21-12N, Nimonic 80A, Inconel and so on are all different "upgraded" stainless materials used in performance valves with each their own specifications, and the list propably goes on so stainless does not describe the valves limitations at all.
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My air cooled guy gets stainless blanks and undercuts them himself. That is where I am going to go. IIRC 3 years ago my valves cost under 8.00 each.
Even the stock valves are stainless! 21-4N, 23-8N, 21-12N, Nimonic 80A, Inconel and so on are all different "upgraded" stainless materials used in performance valves with each their own specifications, and the list propably goes on so stainless does not describe the valves limitations at all.
The material is stainless. The GRADE of stainless I do not know and won't know for a long while as I don't have a head yet to ask him about.