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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vdubspeed on June 12, 2010, 02:58:29 pm
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So I just swapped a 1.5D into my 84 GTI.
Took it to advance auto to grab a few things and then tried a full throttle run. Top speed was 70.
Turned on the electric pump I use to prime the system to see if it would go any faster.
Shifted into 5th at about 65mph and not long after that...I heard a metal rattling noise and it shut down. I turned the key off as fast as I heard the noise because it didn't sound good.
Got it home, pulled the valvecover and the engine, cam and pump were all still in TDC. No belt broke. Everything looks good.
When trying to start now it will just crank and crank and crank. I hear the fuel solenoid energizing when power is applied. A small shot of ether just makes it ping(I know i know)
No compression test but it sounds strong...just wont fire. I even let the glowplugs go for a while and no go.
Also I have squirting fuel at the injectors while cranking.
I'm lost. I swapped this thing in because I loved it's simplicity but now it's getting a little....
Thanks,
Jason
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you got me. if its all timed up and you have fuel at the injectors it should start. maybe pull the oil pan and see what it looks like, whats your crank sprocket look like? 1.5s had the ***ty wooddruff key ones that like to get all wobbly and shear off.
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well...good and bad news.
good news first. I walked away from the car at about 4pm. At 10pm I tried to crank it and bam...it started but needed help. After triple checking the TDC locations, I adjusted the pump timing and had to crank up the fuel to keep it idling smooth(like 2 full rotations). Feels like it's dragging but it was revving up good and idling nice. I also checked oil pressure and it had tons of it. But it was smoking pretty bad. white always and then would go black when I revved it.
I let it run for about 10 minutes and let the fan cycle on and off.
I then shut it down to finish up everything and when I went to recrank it...no start.
It was only off for 5 minutes TOPS. It sounded like it wanted to catch but would never do it.
So atleast it's running again.
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How much psi was your feed pump putting out? A feed pump can increase your advance.
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Try a voltage drop test. Also, bleed the injection lines by cracking them open at the injectors while cranking.
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did you retard your timing? are you running a 1.5 pump? they require quite a bit more advance than a normal 1.6 pump..
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Running a 1.6 pump set at .95mm.
okay...purchased a compression tester but won't have time to do that today.
More news though. It seems starting cold is no problem for it. Starting hot is impossible from the starter.
BUT...when it starts cold it runs real rough and I have to keep it at half throttle for about 30 secs till I can softly let it down to idle. It idles REAL rough and I'm hearing a ton of noise coming from the clutch area. The car shifted fine but this noise is hideous.
I really think something is dragging the motor.
Lots more research to do. Just glad it runs.
Also the pump was a 4-7psi pump from Mr. Gasket.
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You may need a diesel specific gas cap as they are vented while gas ones are not.
Try running it off a jerry can straight to the pump and see how it fairs.
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clutch may have broken a spring, or a bolt may have come out..
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x2.
Sounds like clutch or pressure plate problem.
Just how "abusive" were you on your full throttle run?
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yeah but i don't think a clutch would keep it from starting, and when it did start it would make all kinds of funky noise.
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I'll make a video soon.
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Hi bud, have you tried as said above running diesel from a nice clean jar straight to the pump therefore bypassing the tank/unit/fuel filer and lines? The pressure of the lift pump may have caused an air leak, this would cause the running and starting symptoms you describe.
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usually a diesel with problems will not start when cold, but will start great once its warm, this is a weird problem..
now that i think about it, almost seems fuel related.. maybe the pump loses prime? sucks air?
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Original poster states that there is a "ton" of noise coming from the clutch area.
Also states the noise is hideous.
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Compression test required, before someone links your hard starting to your rear drum shoes ;D
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I'd say turn it over by hand and give it a good listening too. Maybe have someone work the clutch while you are turning it over to see if any sounds change.
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I'll get the comp numbers soon. It's either the engine, the injection pump or something in the clutch area.
I actually drove the car yesterday! Shifted fine. I still think a spring is dead or something. For sure the t/o bearing is shot because the noise goes away when I push in the clutch.
Here's what I believe to be the CURRENT pertinent facts:
1. Before the incident everything was perfect besides it being slow.
2. Loud noise occured.
3. Let the car cool down and it started running again
4. Had to make MAJOR adjustments to the IP to get it to run. Three FULL rotations(much more than the usual 1/8 adjustments) and practically pull the idle screw all the way out.
5. It will NOT run at pre-incident settings
Last questions...do injection pumps get real hot? I mean the fuel temp coming in is like 90 and leaving is in the 130s. And the pump itself is at like 160.
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thats what made me think the clutch went t!ts up..
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I would assume a hot injection pump is normal, after all it is aluminum(very good conductor of heat) and connected to an iron block making in excess of 400F every power stroke.. but i have never actually felt it, or measured temps.. so what do i know. :P
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They get hot enough that you'll burn your hands on them if you are pushing enough fuel.
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I would assume a hot injection pump is normal, after all it is aluminum(very good conductor of heat) and connected to an iron block making in excess of 400F every power stroke.. but i have never actually felt it, or measured temps.. so what do i know. :P
Actually it's MUCH hotter than 400F inside the combustion chamber but outside the block the heat is no more than the t-stats temp rating.
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Well I still haven't comp tested it.
Had a moment today to play with it. Cranked up good cold. Drove it around the block and was blowing smoke, missing a little but was running.
I decided to see if I could get any fuel out of the seperator and a little poured out. After that
I said f it...I'll try to go back to pre-incident settings. Wouldn't even crank. Put it all back to post incident settings and backed of the fuel and it started idling PERFECT. Only a little smoke and seemed great.
I took off to a friends about two miles away. Sure enough...got to about 40mph and it started slowing and then stalled while driving. Primed the system with the electrical pump and it cranked back up.
Got to my friends and shut it down. Started it back up about 10 minutes later and headed home.
Got about 1 mile and it quit. Would restart. Got a pull home and while coming home I dropped the clutch in 3rd and it cranked up and started idling.
I think it might be starving for fuel or something. I have a Mr. Gasket electric pump/filter right after the tank. I'll pull it this weekend to see if it's clogged.
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Did you try running from a fresh jar of diesel or a different fuel cap yet?
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There's a filter inside the tank that could be clogged, you can get to it through the cover under the rear seat.
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Sounds like a friends Cummins, he installed a lift pump on the frame rail to have at least an idle, replaced the IP to no avail, my suggestion of pickup screen was the culprit... Simple suggestion, disconnect fuel line before IP and put into a jar to view, then pressurize the tank via the fuel cap by way of air hose and a rag, see what comes out, and how fast!?!?!
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Well I still haven't comp tested it.
Had a moment today to play with it. Cranked up good cold. Drove it around the block and was blowing smoke, missing a little but was running.
I decided to see if I could get any fuel out of the seperator and a little poured out. After that
I said f it...I'll try to go back to pre-incident settings. Wouldn't even crank. Put it all back to post incident settings and backed of the fuel and it started idling PERFECT. Only a little smoke and seemed great.
I took off to a friends about two miles away. Sure enough...got to about 40mph and it started slowing and then stalled while driving. Primed the system with the electrical pump and it cranked back up.
Got to my friends and shut it down. Started it back up about 10 minutes later and headed home.
Got about 1 mile and it quit. Would restart. Got a pull home and while coming home I dropped the clutch in 3rd and it cranked up and started idling.
I think it might be starving for fuel or something. I have a Mr. Gasket electric pump/filter right after the tank. I'll pull it this weekend to see if it's clogged.
Mine did all that in '06 and then sorta randomly fixed itself and has never done it since.
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hey guys...haven't touched this thing in a few days. Will do some work on it for sure this weekend.
you guys have given me a ton of great advice which I will be doing all of them.
Here's what I'll be doing.
1. checking the intank filter
2. bypassing the electric pump with it's small ass filter
3. checking how well the lines flow
4. doing a comp test
5. running it straight from a source of diesel.
It's cranks up fine when cold I just have to give it a ton of fuel. If I turn the fuel screw down to preincident postion it will stall. As for the idle set...it's BARELY on the the screw...almost on the screw boss.
I just wish it was back to pre-incident running. Ran so good before. :P
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Here's what I'll be doing.
1. checking the intank filter
2. bypassing the electric pump with it's small ass filter
3. checking how well the lines flow
4. doing a comp test
5. running it straight from a source of diesel.
Okay...today's results.
1. great flow from the tank. Assume intank filter fine.
2. removed the electric pump which was RIGHT after the tank where a CIS pump was. Noticed that I couldn't even suck fuel through by my mouth. Figured neither could the injection pump so I set it aside and just ran a straight hose.
3. Lines flow great.
4. Comp results. 360 360 360 320. According to the Bentley they are low BUT...they are close enough and my 19.99 harbor freight setup might not be perfectly accurate.
5. Didn't do.
GOOD news. After bleeding the system, it started running better. NEVER shut off after 30 minutes of driving. Hot start was good 4 out of 5 times. I would be rolling during a hot start though so I could popstart it if need be.
What I noticed.
It misses. When accellerating it honestly feels like it's a gas car with a spark plug missing....kinda like a bad coil pack or something.
Also...when floored in gear, it starts good, bogs down a little/misses/ then on the top end of the gear starts to pull good but by then it's time to shift. Rinse repeat.
Last thing I noticed. When I got home and let it sit...I tried to restart and no go. Noticed a TON of smoke and it almost caught but never did. Turned the fuel screw out 1 full rotation to lean it up and it cranked right up.
It's definitely getting better. Hell I'd rock it as is if I could get the mis thing figured out.
Thanks,
Jason
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I think your hot start problem is related to a bad voltage drop.
The missing is probably air in the system. Run if off a separate can and see what happens. If you can hook a vacuum gauge up to the pump post filter that would be ideal.
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What I noticed.
It misses. When accellerating it honestly feels like it's a gas car with a spark plug missing....kinda like a bad coil pack or something.
Also...when floored in gear, it starts good, bogs down a little/misses/ then on the top end of the gear starts to pull good but by then it's time to shift. Rinse repeat.
Last thing I noticed. When I got home and let it sit...I tried to restart and no go. Noticed a TON of smoke and it almost caught but never did. Turned the fuel screw out 1 full rotation to lean it up and it cranked right up.
Ok, I'll try a couple of thoughts here.
First, your last start. Dialing the fuel screw out sounds right, I'd likely return it to it's original setting, and then readjust from there. You opened it up to compensate for a fuel starved pump, and now that you have that problem solved, you needed to return it to the proper setting, as it was flooding the engine on restart.
The bog/miss MAY be partially related to the excess fuel, and may be somewhat better as the fuel screw is returned to original setting.
I would guess from the info you have given that it is a combination of two factors though: injection timing (dynamic), and possibly one bad/sticky/dirty injector. The timing is one of two things that are variable due to RPM, and if it was not advancing fast enough, or too fast, then it could cause problems in the midrange that corrected as the RPM and the timing came back closer together. Search for posts on the IP internal pressure and timing for more info on this, If you were starving the pump it may have weakened the vane pump, although I'd personally try running it for a little while to see iof it seats back in. The other thing that can vary is cylinder pressures, as boost varies with rpm, I'll mention that again in a minute. As for the injector, I'd suspect the one in the cylinder with lower compression. Do you have the ability to pull that one and have it pop tested? Lastly, it is possible that the one cylinder with low compression doesn't have the oomph to fire until the boost comes up, although I would expect that to show up as a miss at idle, and especially cold starts as well.
I hope that some of this might help your thought process. Basically, I'd reset the fuel screw, drive it a little, and then check pump pressure and the one (or all) injectors.
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Thanks for the replies.
Worth noting. During the comp test today, cyl 4 which was the lowest was also the cleanest. Cyl 1 which was on par had a ton of oil on the injector.
I also tried to go back to pre-incident settings. And if I do...it will NOT rev up.
Lastly...what is a voltage drop? I have a big battery in there and decent grounds but I guess I could beef em up a little. Is that what you are talking about?
Thanks,
Jason
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How to perform a voltage drop test (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22321.0)
Do it with the engine hot if you can
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no voltage drop.
Here's where it stands currently.
Has no problem idling now. Actually idles PERFECT with the line pump out of the way. It's the best it's ever been.
To get decent power out of it and for good cold starts...I have to turn the fuel screw in a little.
To get good hot starts, I have to pull it out some and it still blows a cloud of grey smoke.
Also...the advance lever makes NO difference in performance. The motor feels like it never advances.
I know the pump is a rebuild from Prothe. It has never leaked but even before the incident...I never had great performance from it.
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It might be worth undoing the outlet banjo bolt and looking at the gauze filter that hides inside the bolt, if it is full of metal flakes, doom is in the injection pump. :(
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oh man, thats a prothe ip? theres your problem right there. he doesnt know how to build a pump to save his life.. i think there are 2 pumps on record that actually "kinda" ran. most dont even work right when you buy them, they get shipped broken.