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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: gigaz2 on July 26, 2009, 11:02:33 pm
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hi all,
I've been thinking about slapping a common rail setup on my 1Z, the CP3 pump I have bolts right on where the old VP37 used to be, injectors are thinner, but use the same dsla type nozzles so an adapter ring could be fabricated.
one thing that I couldn't find on the web is information regarding the CP3 pump, is it made on different flavours?
I find difficult to believe that the same pump on a 1.9L renault DCI engine is used on a Duramax or Cummins behemoth
can anybody shed some light on this?
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ok, I've found out that it does comes in different flavours, and mine needs more sugar :D
CR/CP3S3/yxx/20-789S
y can be R or L determines rotation
xx can be from 70 to 125, mine is 70, Duramax are 110, there is a MAN truck that uses the 125
I don't understand what that number means
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Really interested. I did some reading on how the CP3 works, pretty simple really. Wondering how you are going to build a fuel rail? That's a critical part when you are dealing with 20,000 psi of fuel pressure. :o
Brendan
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I'm not :D
ebay is your friend on that, rails are really cheap considering the effort to make one.
usually they also come with the lines to injectors and pump.
I've found that my pump has the capacity to pump 7mm^3 of fuel per stroke I guess that's what the "70" on the partnumber means
thats good, as the same pump is used on up to 170hp truck engines and I still have room to upgrade (duramax cp3's pump 11mm^3 per stroke ;D)
I have to machine adapter rings to seal the injectors on the 1Z head and to figure out all the electronics
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Gonna drive it with the timing belt or otherwise? From what I read, it doesn't need to be "timed" with the engine, so that gives you some flexibility. Plus, I read that they are driven 1:1 with the engine RPM, correct?
How about mounting? Building an adapter to mount in the stock IP location? Seems easy enough.
Electronics.... always the hard part. :D Is it a Bosch-made ECU?
This is good stuff!
Brendan
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Interesting idea, had a brief idea myself when it was mentioned on tdiclub but never did anything.
Did see something mentioned a good while back, if you would make do with one single injection rather than the stages, was to use megasquirt as you are essentially just firing an electronic injector similar to a petrol engine. Then again if it can fire it once, is there anything to say it can't fire several times?
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very interesting. Tuning will be a challenge inject too much fuel all at once an you will lift the head clean off the block. Also make sure your injector patterns are the same as the tdi. This is way cool!
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cp3 is bosch ;D
mouts right up in the VE location, nose is the right leght, belt aligns perfecly.
I have a small gear that gets close to 1:1 and the VE gear also, the stock one enables the use of the stock belt, if using the smaller one a new belt will have to be sourced.
in the electronics department, the best would be to source a bosch ecu.
megasquirt is a nice project but it can't even get close to our needs on timing, I have one and it CAN be made to control a eTDI, a common rail is a completely different beast.
think of it like: a eTDI WILL start without the ecu (selenoid direct to battery and hammer mod to set fuel to an intermediate fixed value)
CR needs the ecu to control every single detail
injector patterns.. the injectors I have use the same DSLA nozzles as the regular tdi :D
could anyone link the discussion on other forums? all info is welcome ;)
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=139569&highlight=common+rail (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=139569&highlight=common+rail)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=247405&highlight=common+rail (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=247405&highlight=common+rail)
Are you using HDI parts? Maybe an early enough 406 HDI has an ecu that can remove immobiliser? Also do you know if the earlier HDIs have the coded injectors?
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i dont think the injectors are coded, my friend swapped some a while back himself in 306 hdi
Interesting threads!
Ry
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Could be a good project.
Even better would be 2.5 tdi with alfa 2.4jtd CR setup!
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cp3 is bosch ;D
mouts right up in the VE location, nose is the right leght, belt aligns perfecly.
I have a small gear that gets close to 1:1 and the VE gear also, the stock one enables the use of the stock belt, if using the smaller one a new belt will have to be sourced.
Woah!!!! :o
Ok, so to sum it up so far:
The CP3 WILL bolt to a TDI mounting bracket.
The CP3 CAN use the stock pulley & belt.
CR nozzles are the same pattern as TDI's.
So that leaves us with these things to figure out:
Adapter piece for CR injectors in TDI head- easy enough?
The rail itself... how does it fit?
Electronics:
-ECU: Any CR 4-cyl ECU could probably be used, I'm sure they have been "cracked" by programmers already.
-Additional sensors: What else does the CR need? Cam sensor? TDI's already have a crank sensor in the rear.
What else? Man, I AM interested in this now. I know for a fact that those CR pumps are easier to source in the USA than DI-specific 4-cylinder VE pumps. :P
Brendan
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Have a look at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/406-hdi-injectors-x4-full-working-order_W0QQitemZ150363229571QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230258cd83&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/406-hdi-injectors-x4-full-working-order_W0QQitemZ150363229571QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230258cd83&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
You can see where the clamps go, similar style to VW units
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peugeot-HDI-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Good-Working-Order_W0QQitemZ150360674741QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230231d1b5&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peugeot-HDI-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Good-Working-Order_W0QQitemZ150360674741QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230231d1b5&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
A pump
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peugeot-306-Mk3-HDI-Fuel-rail-high-pressure-sensor_W0QQitemZ280357073298QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4146957192&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peugeot-306-Mk3-HDI-Fuel-rail-high-pressure-sensor_W0QQitemZ280357073298QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4146957192&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
A rail
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/peugeot-306-hdi-engine-gear-box-406-expert-206-dispatc_W0QQitemZ280378926004QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4147e2e3b4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/peugeot-306-hdi-engine-gear-box-406-expert-206-dispatc_W0QQitemZ280378926004QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4147e2e3b4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
Complete engine, no cover
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Reason I keep suggesting HDI is it is the earliest 4 cylinder CR engine I think we had here in 1999. A lot followed in 2000/01ish, but I would expect the HDI to have the simplest setup. You can buy a complete engine for £250
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Wow, now I get it. Thanks for the links to pics. I was thinking the rail was similar to a FI gasser rail, where the injectors fit directly into the rail itself. With those hard lines from the rail to the injectors, that gives us a little wiggle room. :)
This is looking more and more feasible every minute!
Brendan
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if the system doesn't need multiple injections per cycle, then it could be made to run mechanically. a distributor style system could be rigged up to signal the injectors firing, and maybe a potentiometer style setup could control the amount of fuel injected???
mechanical all the way baby!!! ;D
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the injectors aren't "coded" they are calibrated, some injectors have 4 wires, the extra 2 are a precision laser trimmed resistor that tells the ecu how many mg/stroke/whatever that particular injector did on the test stand.
Jtanguay.. ecu is the only choice here, unfortunately :(
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a faulty Mercedes 220CDI ecu just fell on my lap!! ;D ;D
its the Universe telling me this 1Z wants CR ;)
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YEAH! Time to hack it. :) I'll be watching. :D
Brendan
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Hmm, it appears Banks has a stand-alone ECU for the CP3 in the works:
http://www.bankspower.com/magazines/show/591-Clean-Speed
Read the whole article if you want, but the 5th paragraph mentions the standalone system.
Very interesting!! Of course, with Banks products, you can spell it like this: Bank$$$$$$
Brendan
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Found something else interesting:
http://www.specialist-components.co.uk/cnb/shop/sconline?merchantPageID=5&op=merchantPage-merchantPageDisplay
No idea how much the cost will be, though judging from the other products on their page, at least a thousand bones.
Gotta be an easier way....
Brendan
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Ok so from that it needs 3-5 injection events per cycle with microsecond timing and 100V injector drivers.
Megasquirt 2 runs at 24MHz and has microsecong injector control so that ought to be ok. It would need some extra code to have several injection events, and its definitely possible to build an external injector driver to fire at 100V since units like that have already been made for FSI, albeit not for Megasquirt.
So... is there anyone who knows how to write code for Megasquirt on here?
How would you go about mapping it? If you get it wrong, as Scott said, you could probably blow the head clean off!
Is there any data published anywhere on how the multiple events take place or timing info?
Edit - been doing more reading - injection pulse shaping bleh >:(
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Heh, yeah, I'm pretty technically minded, but I started reading some of that stuff and found myself going cross-eyed.
I'd like to see the Bosch manual on the CR injection- I guess it's 500-ish pages, but hell, so is my Corrado Bentley. :) I'd like to know how much of the multiple events/timing is related to pure sound/emissions control or if it even has anything to do with how the damn engine runs. I mean, 1.6D's run pretty good with one "loosely" timed squirt so it can't be THAT big of a deal.
Brendan
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yup, as I see it, pre-injections are for smoothing the noise and shaping the delivery
post injections are used for emmisions
neither are needed :D but not that hard to implement on software after the main routines are set.
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What does a VE-pump TDI do in terms of injection events?
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basically.. nothing :D
the injectors have two springs so we get a pilot injection but its fixed, we can't control when they happen or how much fuel is used.
then comes the main
______/^\_____/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\_____
pre main
CR can place a injection event anytime, even when the valves are open.
and we can control the pressure on the rail :D marvelous!
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Cool thats what I thought. It should be pretty easy to replicate that with MSII with a bit of code tweaking.
So my thoughts go as follows...
Use a standard 60-2 crank sensor & hacked distributor for cam position
Control the fuel pressure using the ignition maps as a PWM signal
Control the injectors using the injection maps via a high-voltage driver board
Pilot injection is a % of the main injection event
VNT control using a spare PWM output (maybe anoher map?)
And we get something akin to a TDI in terms of noise & emissions (ie not as good as OE CR), but DIY mappable 8)
Whats wrong with that plan?
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its a good plan, but a huge chunk of activity on this forum is based on getting rid of electronics, it would be a lot easier to just fit an ECU from a CR engine like the Mercedes 220 CDI (I4 2.2l 143HP stock) its a edc15c5 (or 6) and its flashable :O
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I've seen reader/flashers for the edc15c5 for as little as $60.00- any software out there to read the maps? I'd rather use that than try to make MS work. No sense in re-inventing the wheel so to speak.... ;)
Brendan
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I've seen reader/flashers for the edc15c5 for as little as $60.00- any software out there to read the maps? I'd rather use that than try to make MS work. No sense in re-inventing the wheel so to speak.... ;)
Brendan
yap, well said
there are a few softwares to mess with the image once read, chiptuners have them, some leak on the "less legal channels" ::)
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Well, the next question, is how would you go about actually tuning it on a dyno? For example, with MS, you can use the "megatune" software, which analyzes logs of a dyno run, then will automatically tweak the map for your desired a/f ratio. I'm not so sure how you'd do that on a diesel other than guessing.
Brendan
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Well how do the pros do it with edc15 etc? Tuning with MS should be exactly the same as that - pick your timing, iq, and fuel pressure by rpm and load, program it in, and see what it does ;D Instead of an O2 sensor for AFR presumably you just tune for minimum smoke?
Megatune doesn't necessarily use the O2 sensor to map the ecu. It can be done manually - it's just easier letting Megatune do it for you with a wideband O2. Aren't there diesel O2 sensors available though? I'm sure I read something about VW using them...?
If someone came up with something like megatune for the OE ecus then that would be fab, but most apps like that cost many thousands of ££s rendering impractical for the tinkerers.
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the same way the mtdi guys do it: EGT and smoke
I have a spare MS but wouldn't use it, too complicated. I would even make it M-CR if possible :D LOL
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Well I did a bit of reading and Mikki you are right- you can pretty much use a wideband o2 to measure lambda in a Diesel the same as you can a gasser. Diesels can see around 15:1 or so for good power before smoke/EGT can get excessive, so plotting a graph of AFR vs. RPM would show right away where fuel would need to be added/removed. Under idle/part throttle conditions, it probably wouldn't help much as diesels go lean enough to be unreadable on most widebands- in which case you would just tune to minimize smoke/egt with acceptable power.
Now Timing, on the other hand, is a completely different thing. I'm not sure how much effect injection timing would have on lambda- my guess is probably not much- but EGT I think would probably change a bit. That's something I still don't know much about. :)
Brendan
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Now that is interesting - I knew there was an O2 sensor for diesels, but I didn't know a wideband would do it! It would be easy to tune with megatune then. Is info on the timing available in any of the technical data? Could it be extracted from the existing ecu maps?
I was thinking while in the car earlier - this would allow us to do transplants & conversions with engines other than the 4-cylinders, for example the V6s and V8s 8) 4.2TDI Corrado anyone? ;D
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Crikey! The VR6 is enough trouble! :D
Brendan
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VR6? Meh!
(http://www.corradov8.com/images/engine.JPG)
;D
I reckon a 3.0TDI would work pretty well in there running on MegaCommonRailDieselSquirt! ;)
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;)
I've read your thread, trust me. :) That's nuts.
Brendan
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Bump. :D
Brendan
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Back up. Found a good post on TDI club about A/F ratios on a diesel. Yeah, a good post on TDI club. Go figure. :P
You have 3 zone, before the turbo spool, at spool and after spool.
-Before turbo spool, engine run like NA, 15:1 to 17:1 is good, 14:1 between 1000 to 1400rpm for better torq if little smoke is ok.
-At turbo spool, very narrow zone of rpm (200 to 600rpm zone), very hard to adjust A/F, 14:1 to 15:1 is better for fast spool, 15:1 to 17:1 for low cloud of smoke, many chip car are too rich in this zone but is very narrow zone!.
-After turbo spool, 15.5:1 to 16:1 is good target, gray haze and good power, 17:1 to 17.5:1 is low smoke ajustement, more than 18:1 power drop fast but no smoke in most case.
In exel, just divide air by fuel for A/F!
But chip are not calibrate for quantity of fuel, if nozzle, head or voltage map are change, ecu report wrong quantity of fuel.
Add O2 wide band on your down pipe and see what happen, i have and is very usefull for good tune.
Dieseleux
Brendan
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crikey.. good info outside of vwdiesel or "the other good forum" :o
that is very interesting, I always thought that a lambda probe on a diesel system would only work for a few minutes, then it would get fouled up in soot.
the lambda range used for power is also interesting as it is lower than a gasser.
I guess EGT is also a indirect way to measure lambda no?
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I've also found out that Bosch Motorsports sells a complete standalone CRD ECU, they have two versions, a "sport" version for the small sum of $3500, and a "competition" version for $6000!!!! Even the sport version has more inputs and datalogging than most of us would ever need. I wish they made an "economy" version. :P
Brendan
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I havn't been on this list for awhile..found and read through this thread with great interest. I recently bought a DMAX CP3 pump Part #CR/CP3/S3/R110/30-7895.
I previously did not know what the yxx stood for. Are you sure it is mm^3 per stroke? I ask this because it is common for a DMAX to run up to 600+HP on the OEM CP3 pump with the right tune, injectors & turbo. After this, people start swapping in modified CP3's and double CP3 set-ups. To produce 600HP (and about 1100ft-lbs), considering 2 combustion events at one time, or 550ft-lbs/cyl, fueling would need to be about 140mg/stroke. Since the sg of fuel is around .95(?), that would mean the pump is delivering up to at least 147mm^3/stroke. What am I seeing wrong on this guys?
Also, what direction would R be..clock wise looking at the pulley, or ccw?
I read through the site link on the "Specialist Componants" CRD ECU, pretty nice looking unit. However, I really cant imagine how one would build the correct tune starting from scratch. Perhaps they provide base tunes for different application to help get one started?..or even a built in autotune system, similar to the G3 system, to help get started? An EDC15C or EDC16_ seems like the easiest route.
thanks for the good read guys.
How are you making out on this project anyway?
EDIT - answered my own question here. The VW pump is designed for one injector event at a time, the DMAX is design for two injector events at a time so:
VW = 70mm^3/stroke x 1 injector
DMAX = 110mm^3/stroke x 2 injectors = 220mm^3/stroke if all the fuel goes to just one injector. That is a lot of fuel!
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I've thought about that, the cp3 has 3 plungers, could it be that its capacity is rated "per stroke" ?
would make sense, as it has to have at least twice the capacity than the fuel system can deliver in order to keep the pressure
the project is a loong running one, as the final goal of this would be to restore dignity to a originally good diesel that was was converted to a gasser before hitting the assembly line ;)
a good gasser btw, but with DI, CR and a good vnt turbo it has potential to deliver
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I guess you can't really have too much, since excess fuel is just sent back to the tank, correct?
With the tuning and Standalone, I would imagine it's pretty much the same as megasquirt- you go through a "wizard" answering questions about displacement, cylinders, firing order, crank/cam timing points and position sensor type, etc... and the software calculates what to do. I've seen someone set up MS on a VW 8valve cold, IE. no base map, in about 10 minutes it was running. The tweaking and fine-tuning is what takes so much time. I'd think that with a diesel, it would be even more simple since there is no spark map to worry about.
Brendan
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Bump. Anyone got anything new and juicy?
Brendan
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Does any one have a source on the injectors?
I have a CP3 and was planning on doing this for a while...just have been to busy. I was looking for an adequately fast controller for it.
There is an open source ECU available that is better then the MS -> http://www.vems.hu/ (http://www.vems.hu/) quite a bit cheaper as well.
A bit of a discussion on this topic on the site: http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=CommonRail (http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=CommonRail)
If any one has a lead on the 100V driver board that would be great. Also you need to know the timing on the injectors. I read earlier that some had 4 wires one set reporting timing on the injector, does any one have a part number for this injector? Are the injectors Pizo? or Solenoid?
I have a micro controller to create the whole system but I need more information on injectors, and he driver board.
I also know of a few cam timing sensors, Cherry builds one.
Keep the great info coming!
Brad
-please excuse any grammar or spelling. End of day and still at work...trying to leave while posting! :P
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Thanks for the reply Helliouse-
A page or two or three back, someone posted e-bay UK link to Peugeot HDi fuel rail and injectors. The link is no good anymore but I'd probably start there- the 4-cylinder ones looked (from the pics) to be similar spacing to the VW injector locations. I think the injectors would require a machined adapter ring to fit the injectors in to, then fit them in the head and work with the VW hold-downs. As far as I know, the early HDi injectors were Solenoid.
The 100v driver board I need to do some more research on. :/
Brendan
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http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Common-Rail-Diesel-Engine-Management-Part-2/A_108105/article.html (http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Common-Rail-Diesel-Engine-Management-Part-2/A_108105/article.html)
Good article.
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I believe there is a relatively easy way to implement CR into a former VE TDI. Before my collaborative project settled on using a native 16V CR TDI as a base, we put a lot of thought into how we would put CR in a VE TDI. Since we wanted to build an engine for insane performance, we opted on a Duramax CP3 pump (this concept carries over for our new engine since the original pump will not give us the sufficient quantity we need for our 450 HP target. For injectors and nozzles, VAG has a 5-cylinder CR TDI with 2V/head for the Crafter with the same valve layout and injector slant angle as the VE (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z114/daveo643/Tech/13a6c38b.png). This uses DSLA nozzles and piezo injectors, which can be swapped for solenoid injector bodies from the VW (e.g. VW LT2.8 engine code BCQ) or other OEM parts bin if you can't or don't want to use piezo. You can use a number of Bosch EDC16 ECUs, possibly hybridized across a number of different applications, or you can get one of these (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z114/daveo643/Tech/404dff67.png). This standalone ECU can drive both solenoid and piezo injectors with multiple injections per cycle. The rail can come from almost any 4-cylinder application like the VW CBEA 16V CR TDI but you may need to fabricate the high-pressure connector lines from the rail to the individual injectors.
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Great information, thanks for that. So a VAG CR 2V head does exist. :) Good to know.
I've read that entire technical manual of the Skynam, and it looks absolutely amazing. What I wish I could see is screenshots of the tuning software, and if it has the ability to analyze datalogs and adjust tune accordingly- sorta like TunerStudio for MS. I'm also afraid to even ask how much it costs. But it really looks like a nice piece.
I'm still on the fence about keeping the ALH TDI for the Scirocco, or selling the ALH and finding a CBEA. Depends on budget I suppose, though my budget situation may be changing soon, for the better. :)
Even though I've read all there is to read about the Skynam, I'd still like to know more about it.
Thanks much TDIMeister-
Brendan
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If you want to get a 8V CR TDI with 2-stage turbo project going, let me know. I even have the cam for it. :D
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I already have the Duramax CP pump. So yes I am on my way to doing it.
I am just wondering if I can fit a 2.0 CR 16v head on my ALH...I hope so! But haven't found anything to say I can.
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Why don't you just get a 16V long-block? There have been many improvements on the bottom end with the newest TDIs like a larger big-end journal diameter for more strength that started with some of the 1.9 PDs. You will have to bore out your ALH to take the 16V CR pistons anyway; they are not interchangeable. Then you'll need custom rods to match the required small-end taper with the smaller big-end journals of the ALH crank. In the end, you'll probably spend the same amount of $$$ to make an ALH work than to start out with a complete 16V CR long block. What are your power goals? I ask because I don't believe the ALH will sustain too much loading...
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Dammit, you are making me not want to mess with the ALH now and go straight to the 16v CR. :-\
*searching junkyards now*
Brendan
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LOL! :D
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I am looking for 400 ftlb or higher.
I would love to do that, but I already have a lightweight crank, and girdle for my ALH. I know they are not near as strong as some of the Newer PD engines...
So the 16v head would fit on? Valve clearances to cylinder walls would be fine, or is that the reason to bore it out?
The pistons bowl is shaped that different? or is it located in a different location? If not why the swap?
I am not opposed to getting a 16v. Just can't right now...But I will probably get one as well.
Brad
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(http://users.telenet.be/rub87/rest/collector/DSSvsR520.jpg)
The above was done on a VE TDI with PD bottom end, bored out to 1968cc with 81mm pistons. You don't need 16V nor common rail to get numbers like that. TDIClub might have the answer as to whether a 16V TDI head with fit on an ALH head though, if you're hell bent on it. I still think it would be a waste. The reason why boring out and swapping pistons is a must is that the piston bowl in a 16V is centred on the piston while on the 8V it is not.
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Good to know on the centering.
I will still build my 1.9 ALH bottom end as I have the most expensive part bought already...
The 16v will come later
Brad
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A project to retrofit a VE TDI to common rail is being seriously explored:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=353770
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=353990
Vote on the poll in the second thread link if you're seriously interested in this becoming a kit. The number of interest will help the person who's funding the development to make a decision whether or not to go ahead with this. We have as objectives cost-effectiveness and being as plug-and-play as feasibly possible.