VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => General => Topic started by: bbob203 on September 13, 2012, 06:23:12 pm
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starting to gather parts for passat b3 gas to diesel swap. have all 3 engines at my finger tips. wanted to get different opinions on them.
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TDI..
if you got it, use it..
no reason to throw a 1.6 in there if you have better engines.
the TDI is 15% more efficient. and i imagine would be more happy pushing that heavy wagon around, than a 1.6 would.
i know its been done (with the 1.6) but if you have better ones, WHY?!
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He's right, you know. The heavier car should always get the engine with the msot torque and lower power band. The IDI's are good motors, but are best reserved for lighter cars that can use the mid-range power more effectively than a car that can weigh near 3200 lbs.
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An AAZ has the ability to pump out just as much power as the 1Z/AHU (early TDI) engines. They are both 1.9L and if both had a small to medium VNT would be identical. The only downside is you will need to spin %15 more RPM with the AAZ and use 15% more fuel in doing so to make the same power as the DI 1.9L.
Personally the AAZ in my brothers 84 with the pumped fully tweaked by yours truly and the tiny K03.. its a damn rocket. Spools hard off idle till about 2500-3000. A shift at 2500 drops you around 18-1900 in the next gear where you are making full torque yet again.. OFF SHE GOES.
On anything, I would never consider the 1.6 if you had an AAZ. Even if you were going for stock power levels.. the 1.9 being the next gen engine is better in almost every way. The TDI, unless you have a pump setup ready, will be quite a bit more work than the AAZ. Trust me, I've done both within three weeks of each other.
The only reason being, is the the TDI cam plate in the pump has steeper and higher ramps. Pushing the distributor farther in to the head to make the pressures necessary to crack the TDI injectors (195bar= 2,828psi). For this you need modified pump internals to move the fuel control collar further towards the head than a 1.6/1.9 lever can do in stock form. It will run, I've done that too. It will start and run perfectly, even in -20c weather (I did my swap in January). However you will have a severe cut in fueling over the stock TDI pump, and will not be able to maintain high enough pressures needed.
SO! My pro's;
1.6 IDI- There isn't any. Simplicity? not any less complex than a TDI motor..
1.9 IDI- Great power right out of the box, very de-tuned, lots of (free mods) power to be had.
1.9 TDI- Even better power out of the box, if staying electronic a chip and injectors alone will make it a coffin on wheels in an mk1/mk2. Way more stout bottom end, and the head breathes better too. Next Gen engine yet again.
My Con's;
1.6 IDI- Everything. Goes through Head Gaskets if you even look at the coolant bottle wrong.. Lot's dont have piston oilers (N/A), some are mechanical heads, smaller displacement.
1.9 IDI- Haven't found any yet from personal experience, engine has over 400kms with no rebuild and still starts cold and runs excellent. Seems to be pretty a damn solid unit.
1.9 TDI- The pump, the biggest concern for a swap candidate. There are no direct OEM swap on pumps as the 1.9L AHU was never offered as a mechanically throttled engine. There are a lot of choices, but each require machine work, and heavy tweaking to run properly on this engine. You can, and I have, build a "FrankenShteenPompe" out of entirely Bosch Volkswagen OEM stuff. You will still need to customize your throttle lever.. but that isn't much. Pretty much the only CON to a TDI swap :)
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tdi it is then! Im kicking my self I could have bought one from my friend... 1500 for a complete slighly wrecked jetta tdi 98.. passed it up 1 didn't have money and was undeducated thought tdi was too big a can of worms. Gonna either get rover pump by CRSMP5 advice or get a libby mtdi and sell off the etdi stuff. either wat etdi stuff is going I hate computer ***. its cool to have a plug but no thanks. I got a running driving b3 tdi up in canada I can go pickup for 2 grand body is garbage good motor though apparently drive it home pull parts cut it up and scrap the rest.
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If you aren't going to sell it and pay for your retirement I wouldn't mind the E TDI stuff. Let me know what you would consider for it all.
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Ahh yes apparently Andrews pumps will be bolt on huge power! You will need injector upgrades, and plan to run an upgraded clutch for sure.
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An AAZ has the ability to pump out just as much power as the 1Z/AHU (early TDI) engines. They are both 1.9L and if both had a small to medium VNT would be identical. The only downside is you will need to spin %15 more RPM with the AAZ and use 15% more fuel in doing so to make the same power as the DI 1.9L.
Personally the AAZ in my brothers 84 with the pumped fully tweaked by yours truly and the tiny K03.. its a damn rocket. Spools hard off idle till about 2500-3000. A shift at 2500 drops you around 18-1900 in the next gear where you are making full torque yet again.. OFF SHE GOES.
On anything, I would never consider the 1.6 if you had an AAZ. Even if you were going for stock power levels.. the 1.9 being the next gen engine is better in almost every way. The TDI, unless you have a pump setup ready, will be quite a bit more work than the AAZ. Trust me, I've done both within three weeks of each other.
The only reason being, is the the TDI cam plate in the pump has steeper and higher ramps. Pushing the distributor farther in to the head to make the pressures necessary to crack the TDI injectors (195bar= 2,828psi). For this you need modified pump internals to move the fuel control collar further towards the head than a 1.6/1.9 lever can do in stock form. It will run, I've done that too. It will start and run perfectly, even in -20c weather (I did my swap in January). However you will have a severe cut in fueling over the stock TDI pump, and will not be able to maintain high enough pressures needed.
SO! My pro's;
1.6 IDI- There isn't any. Simplicity? not any less complex than a TDI motor..
1.9 IDI- Great power right out of the box, very de-tuned, lots of (free mods) power to be had.
1.9 TDI- Even better power out of the box, if staying electronic a chip and injectors alone will make it a coffin on wheels in an mk1/mk2. Way more stout bottom end, and the head breathes better too. Next Gen engine yet again.
My Con's;
1.6 IDI- Everything. Goes through Head Gaskets if you even look at the coolant bottle wrong.. Lot's dont have piston oilers (N/A), some are mechanical heads, smaller displacement.
1.9 IDI- Haven't found any yet from personal experience, engine has over 400kms with no rebuild and still starts cold and runs excellent. Seems to be pretty a damn solid unit.
1.9 TDI- The pump, the biggest concern for a swap candidate. There are no direct OEM swap on pumps as the 1.9L AHU was never offered as a mechanically throttled engine. There are a lot of choices, but each require machine work, and heavy tweaking to run properly on this engine. You can, and I have, build a "FrankenShteenPompe" out of entirely Bosch Volkswagen OEM stuff. You will still need to customize your throttle lever.. but that isn't much. Pretty much the only CON to a TDI swap :)
a mk1 is NOT a B3...
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An AAZ has the ability to pump out just as much power as the 1Z/AHU (early TDI) engines. They are both 1.9L and if both had a small to medium VNT would be identical. The only downside is you will need to spin %15 more RPM with the AAZ and use 15% more fuel in doing so to make the same power as the DI 1.9L.
Personally the AAZ in my brothers 84 with the pumped fully tweaked by yours truly and the tiny K03.. its a damn rocket. Spools hard off idle till about 2500-3000. A shift at 2500 drops you around 18-1900 in the next gear where you are making full torque yet again.. OFF SHE GOES.
On anything, I would never consider the 1.6 if you had an AAZ. Even if you were going for stock power levels.. the 1.9 being the next gen engine is better in almost every way. The TDI, unless you have a pump setup ready, will be quite a bit more work than the AAZ. Trust me, I've done both within three weeks of each other.
The only reason being, is the the TDI cam plate in the pump has steeper and higher ramps. Pushing the distributor farther in to the head to make the pressures necessary to crack the TDI injectors (195bar= 2,828psi). For this you need modified pump internals to move the fuel control collar further towards the head than a 1.6/1.9 lever can do in stock form. It will run, I've done that too. It will start and run perfectly, even in -20c weather (I did my swap in January). However you will have a severe cut in fueling over the stock TDI pump, and will not be able to maintain high enough pressures needed.
SO! My pro's;
1.6 IDI- There isn't any. Simplicity? not any less complex than a TDI motor..
1.9 IDI- Great power right out of the box, very de-tuned, lots of (free mods) power to be had.
1.9 TDI- Even better power out of the box, if staying electronic a chip and injectors alone will make it a coffin on wheels in an mk1/mk2. Way more stout bottom end, and the head breathes better too. Next Gen engine yet again.
My Con's;
1.6 IDI- Everything. Goes through Head Gaskets if you even look at the coolant bottle wrong.. Lot's dont have piston oilers (N/A), some are mechanical heads, smaller displacement.
1.9 IDI- Haven't found any yet from personal experience, engine has over 400kms with no rebuild and still starts cold and runs excellent. Seems to be pretty a damn solid unit.
1.9 TDI- The pump, the biggest concern for a swap candidate. There are no direct OEM swap on pumps as the 1.9L AHU was never offered as a mechanically throttled engine. There are a lot of choices, but each require machine work, and heavy tweaking to run properly on this engine. You can, and I have, build a "FrankenShteenPompe" out of entirely Bosch Volkswagen OEM stuff. You will still need to customize your throttle lever.. but that isn't much. Pretty much the only CON to a TDI swap :)
a mk1 is NOT a B3...
My bad. Didnt recall from his post, just know he has mk2 stuff.
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My bad. Didnt recall from his post, just know he has mk2 stuff.
Yeah, that's the reason I was insistent on a TDI in my post. The B3/4s are big ol' girls, especially in wagon form. TDI will make it a lot more fun, though. :)
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IMO, the important factors to look at are the initial cost of the engine, what it will cost to install and get running well, the potential fuel economy, the potential power and how well the power curve of that engine will match the available gearing. I personally like all three engines.
The following are just data points to consider.
The TDI will require either mTDI pump or significant electrical work to get running well. It does not like to rev. RPM for highway cruise should be around 2700, IMO. mTDI or eTDI have good power potential.
The AAZ will rev significantly higher. It will be comfortable with highway cruise rpms @ 3500 or below. Better fuel economy will come from getting closer to 2800-3000. AAZ will consume more fuel by 10-15% for the same power as the TDI.
The 1.6TD will produceWhen I had my 1.6TD in my vanagon it moved it right along just fine. Granted, it was intercooled with a properly functioning VNT pushing 15+ psi with fuel to match, but IMO a tuned 1.6TD won't have any trouble moving a Mk3 around. That said, the AAZ similarly tuned will produce 20% more power while getting a little worse fuel economy when you play. The mTDI similarly tuned will produce 20% more power than the 1.6TD AND get better fuel economy.
The stock vanagon gearing is decently suited to the AAZ but too short for the mTDI. I recently installed an AAZ into a vanagon of mine instead of an mTDI because the added cost of the mTDI pump and regearing the trans meant that the whole project would take 150,000 miles or so to pay back on fuel savings at the current cost of diesel. I also own two other vanagons, one of which is an mTDI (with irritatingly short gearing) and the other will be an ALH mTDI before too long (already have the drivetrain with the tall R+P already installed).
As far as personal choice, if all three engines were available for similar money I would go with either the AAZ or the mTDI depending on the trans gearing.
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What would be the optimal gear box to put behind an mtdi for balance of economy power and speed most emphasis on economy? six speed? is that even do able in a b3 or is to much custom fabbing? cost isnt neccesarily and object to me though Im not looking to spend 10k on this build but I wouldnt be ashamed of 4k if it got me the vehicle I need.
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The B3 came TDI didn't it? OR no. If it did, a B3 TDI 02A tranny would be awesome
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The B3 came TDI didn't it? OR no. If it did, a B3 TDI 02A tranny would be awesome
Going off of a 195/65 R15 tire (which is what the Internet says is stock tire size for a 1994 GLS), the CHA trans from a B4 TDI Passat would be ideal if you cruise at 70 mph. With those tires the revs will be at 2663 RPM, with 2473 @65.
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what kind of clutch and injectors should I be looking at?
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Clutch depends on the transmission used, and injectors depend on power level wanted, turbo used, and what you desire from the engine. Also a tune should be considered for injectors.
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What if I just run oem stuff and don't beat on it?
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Not sure about injectors being an IDI guy, but 02a can run a Sachs G60 kit. 21lb flywheel, with a clutch and PP setup that is advertized as being able to withstand 300 ft/lbs of torque. If aiming for more, a SBC stage 2 endurance clutch kit would be a good choice. Pricey, but the lining on the FW and PP help control high temperatures and prolong clutch life. IDparts has a special on the Sachs unit right now: http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=764 (http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=764)
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I have not seen anything indefinite either way but I think idi that injectors do not make much difference because fuel mixing is already very good due to the swirl chambers I think there might be gains for us with different or modded swirl chambers the gm guys experiment with this. And one our forum members will be soon too!
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holy smokes 400 bucks for a clutch. :o. I just wanna get good milage and have car that wont breakdown. ;D
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passat = 02a for ease... sadly 02a clutch = big $ vs 020... even in stock parts...
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Well it is still some work to fit an 020 to a B3 as I am sure i have read recently. I get 50mpg out of my AHU 84, consistently.
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-2000 in donor car
-800 in receiver car
-1000 for mtdi pump
-400 clutch and flywheel
-250 for 02a clutch cable swap
-??? injectors (idea of price on these)?
+600 for e-tdi stuff
+scrap money and part out money
-several hundred in exhaust and other random sh*T
So i got 4grand into this build by this list
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Veg Injection nozzles, I got my .216's for $120CAD shipped.
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What is the deal with stuff I've read about pre chambers falling out of idi's and ruining the engine. how likely is it to actually happen?
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seeing that there are probably millions of vw IDI diesels and we only know of mabye a few handfuls, it isn't likely. But the older these engines get and the more power pumped to them the more likely it will become I think. Mine ruined basically everything but the crank, IM shaft, 3 rods, cam, and the valves not in #3 cylinder. Everything else was completely wasted, so if it does happen it is a bad day.
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i think especially in stock form it is very uncommon
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the aaz i can get is looking like a better option. lower miles and such. in canada though so im not sure about importing a car.
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Where is a good place to buy a mTDI injection pump? I know Giles will build me on but I have to send him two pumps - a 1.6TD and a Rover mTDI pump. He does great work but I am just wondering who else or what else might I consider for a Mk1 conversion use?
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Rover pump is the easiest way to go in my opinion. Bolts up with a small amount of machine work and seems to run quite well even with plain stock settings.
Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
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Why would you need to send Giles an LR pump AND a 1.6 pump? The LR pump does not need any components from the 1.6 pump. Is he collecting 1.6 pumps? Just run the LR pump. No need to send it to anyone...
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Good call Libby -
I checked with Gee Bee and it wasn't a 1/6TD pump that he had sent along with the Rover pump to Giles for high performance custom build but an AHU pump along with a Rover for like $2200 - so I don't know if rebuilding both or turning them both into one supper custom build pump for that much - anyway nix the 1.6TD pump info I gave out - not totally understanding Guy but that's because correspondence was vague -
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I asked Giles a couple years ago, here's his answer:
yes we are building M-TDI pumps and yes we need two donor pumps for sure.
a TDI pump and an AAZ pump to make the base pump from.
cost is $1400 with you sending in the two pump cores, if you need them we have for $350 each
it comes with the the TDI original head, if you want a bigger one I would have to purchase one from Bosch $1000 more
Giles
Performance Diesel Inj.
The Fuel Injection Specialists
905-940-2266
No Rover pump required. The only possible reason to send Giles a Rover pump plus something else would be to put the Rover guts into a housing with the smaller nose that fits the stock AHU bracket without modification. I certainly wouldn't spend my money that way.