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General Information => FAQ/Tech Tips/Please Read First => Topic started by: libbydiesel on August 20, 2012, 09:13:29 pm
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I have seen this question posted a gazillion times on various forums. I have seen people answer both YES and NO. I will staunchly say that if you want your engine to run well and have decent power, the answer is YES. Power to that solenoid enables the dynamic timing. In order to remove any doubt, I have personally installed my diesel pulse adapter and timing light and visually shown that without power to that solenoid, the injection timing actually gets progressively retarded. With power connected, it advances as it should with RPM. I have seen it stated that powering that extra solenoid will disable the load dependent timing advance. Again, my personal testing using the timing light has not shown this to be the case. Powering that solenoid or leaving power disconnected does not appear to have any affect on load dependent timing advance.
To reiterate, without power is no advance. With power dynamic advance works. Put constant power to the solenoid.
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Can you eliminate the need for electricity by replacing the solenoid with a spacer and plate of some sort?
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For the EMP weapons the Chinese use when they invade??
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LOL
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The AAZ end cap fitting has a second shimmed spring and is somewhat complicated in it's casting/machining. You cannot simply replace it with a block-off plate. Running a jumper wire from the stop solenoid is quick and easy, tho.
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For the EMP weapons the Chinese use when they invade??
I think that solenoid would likely be EMP immune, as well as the alternator. So you may need to bump start it, but should be able to remain with a 12v system for the pumps solenoids.
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Swap in a stop solenoid, it is the opposite of the advance solenoid. 12v open vs 12v closed.
Personally I think there is something wrong with this test (pump or equipment). I'm pretty sure that solenoid only controls the load dependent timing. I wish I had tested it when I worked with Giles.
If it actually did retard the timing, or even disable it, your car would run like a total bag, which it doesn't when it is hooked up vs not hooked up.
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I suppose the governor shaft depth could be set wrong, but there's nothing complicated about the test I did. I attached the diesel pulse adapter pickup to the #1 injector line, hooked up the adapter and timing light and shined it on the flywheel with the engine running. With 12v connected it advanced. Without 12v connected it retarded. Just for clarity, timing of the ACTUAL start of injection will retard progressively with rpms (it does not remain static with progressive rpms on a diesel) unless there is some advance type of mechanism just due to the physics of compressing the fuel and shooting it out the injector.
In the future I may check the behavior of the timing advance on one of my other VW diesels with an IN bolt in place for the OUT bolt and see if it behaves in a similar manner as when the 12v is not connected.
I haven't delved into the way the fuel pressure travels through that solenoid, but I have heard two descriptions of it's function. One description went along the lines that deactivating that solenoid was done on engine overrun in order to retard the timing and reduce NOx emissions. The other description I have heard is that power to that solenoid disables the load dependent timing advance, although with that description I have never heard of a reason and can't think of any why disabling the load dependent timing would be advantageous even to emissions.
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libby-are we write about this,as I see there is two model some say one is advance other is retard and i need advance
(http://www.dodaj.rs/f/22/ew/1DvUGpcW/p8220001.jpg)
My IP has nothing on,by factory of corse, can you tell me what is this
(http://www.dodaj.rs/f/l/7b/2BJxDdhW/p8220002.jpg)
Its Reno IP by way.
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That is not the solenoid version I'm talking about. That one, the pipe goes up to the internal pressure regulator. The AAZ one it goes up to a banjo fitting that is right between the fuel inlet and the pressure regulator. The one you are showing is like what is fitted to many Cummins 4BTA pumps.
The second of your pictures is of the idle/fast idle lever.
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Thx libby,
I am Fiat guy with VE pump very low on Cummins 4BTA pumps,is this meen that this is for retard?
When you say "The AAZ one it goes up to a banjo fitting that is right between the fuel inlet and the pressure regulator." does this mean that there is 3 banjo fitting,or is it my English?
I know yoa data man,I get that for 5 e,can you give me picture to find right one please.
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libby,any chance of picture that part?
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(http://www.abmeb.com/pics/bus/pump.jpg)
Ignore the arrow
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Thx Tyler,%$##,That is almost same as I have,so as I see that is 3 kind.
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Late AAZ pumps have an extra electric connection. Similar to the full E-TDI pumps.
I think this may be what libby is referring too. I know this is not an AAZ pump but I just used this image to show the one I mean.
Note the blue connector and wire going to the grey solenoid located under the black pump head.
(http://nayakdiesel.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/VE_EDC.340165132_std.JPG)
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Burn's picture is what I am referring to.
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Burn's picture is what I am referring to.
Ahh, ok, but that still leaves the question on what to do with the connection I mention if someone's pump has it. It certainly appears on late AAZ and early E-TDI pumps over here in Europe, and is controlled by some electrical boxes on the AAZ. It certainly sounds like it has an effect on the advance when one supplies 12volts to it. Definite change in engine tone and noise.
I wondered if it was some kind of temperature controlled gadget to restrict the engine during the warm up period and stop head cracking etc. Either that or it was energised on the overun to limit emissions.
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I imagine that version has computer controlled timing. Is there a pintle lift sensor on any of the injectors? Any crank position sensor on the engine?
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i have one of these on a pump on my n/a car and i dont even have it hooked up.
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I imagine that version has computer controlled timing. Is there a pintle lift sensor on any of the injectors? Any crank position sensor on the engine?
There was no injector lift sensor or a crank position sensor on the AAZ engine. However there was a small sensor in the pump head fitted where one would insert the pump timing tool.
i have one of these on a pump on my n/a car and i dont even have it hooked up.
That sounds like a perfect opportunity to try connecting it and checking if there is a difference. As I mentioned previously, I noticed a distinct change at tickover, but no great difference whilst driving the car.
I actually have an old E-TDI pump here I that I used the pump head and cam plate out of so could get round to pulling the part off and getting some pics taken of it. It looks like it will engage with the advance piston judging by the location and shape of the pump casing around the area it is fitted.
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Good info from all... I was amazed how loud/clattering the pump was at idle, I'll check next week with the solenoid powered to see if it makes a difference. :D
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OK, so I got a chance to investigate the 1Z TDI pump today.
Here is the part in question. It clicks like a solenoid when given 12volts.
(http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af136/original_danster/DSC00858.jpg)
This is what it looks like when removed. There is a fine gauze / filter in that small green part with the square sections. It has a very small orifice on the end that you can just make out.
(http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af136/original_danster/DSC00864.jpg)
This is the pump casing with it removed. You can just make out drillings at 3 oclock on the outer, and 10 oclock on the inner. Basically flow must come from the outer hole and flow through the gauze / filter and out of the small orifice. It seems to control flow from one side of the advance piston to the other.
I was unable to check if it was open or closed with 12volts supplied.
(http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af136/original_danster/DSC00862.jpg)
Any thoughts on this?
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Electrofy it with it removed. Keep your finger over it, it may ahoot out and be gone forever if you don't ;).
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I like to show you in this way:
(http://www.dodaj.rs/f/31/uR/4oRWHdB9/p9020001aaa.jpg)
that MS bolt is some presure regulator thing so if I block right side with MS bolt I`ll have manual control of advance,I`ll keep that presure regulator with tube from page 1 because it " HAS " to be with this setup
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I thinking of using just plate on which I put 1/4" manual ball valve,and again on presure regulator with tube from page 1,so I can "ADJUST" inside of car in my drive time,maybe I`ll put some restriction after valve?
Your comment please,is this will work?
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Come on boys,anybody?
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Good info from all... I was amazed how loud/clattering the pump was at idle, I'll check next week with the solenoid powered to see if it makes a difference. :D
My car has this device
(http://www.dodaj.rs/f/22/ew/1DvUGpcW/p8220001.jpg)
It is connected to the altitude compensating switch, and receives 12V when the key is on unless you are over 6000ft above sea level.
when the connector falls off, the pump is clattery like cold start advance at all RPM.
Also, behind the solenoid is a spring, and a bunch of tiny shim washers that want to fly everywhere.
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Thx for replay,what abot "I thinking of using just plate on which I put 1/4" manual ball valve,and again on presure regulator with tube from page 1,so I can "ADJUST" inside of car in my drive time,maybe I`ll put some restriction after valve?Your comment please,is this will work?"
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The main trouble here is there are lots of different solenoids used in the advance circuit on various VE pumps.
My 1Y pump has a solenoid for advance that nobody has yet pictured. :-) The one on my pump must be supplied with 12V (AND EARTH!!! it has 2 wires), otherwise it allows pressure to both sides of the advance piston (apparently no dynamics advance - but there is no bleed either, which makes it act less than predictably when its not powered).
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Yes I agree,that solenoid on my picture is too hot for 10 sek,and then I start to think about
manuel ball valve?
By way,many time some say more pressure inside IP is retard -some not,so I find in ESI that say more pressure is ADVANCE,one for all time,I can put photo if you wish.
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Hmmmmm, now mine doesn't seem to have that hookup at all. Is this still another version?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/stewardc/100_4703.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/stewardc/100_4704.jpg)
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Almost looks like you have a 1.6 body there Steward.. Up by the fuel in and between it and the pressure regulator in the other side. . Is there a bolt or just a flat machined surface??
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Well, it was built by Giles specifically for my AAZ. Am unsure where you mean for that bolt.
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Between the fuel inlet and the fuel pressure regulator directly opposite it. Looking at the pump from the front it is about a half inch directly towards the engine.
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There is a bolt there.
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Ok. So it is an AAZ pump, without the solenoid on it. It is suppossd to have one stock. But apparently they have no use if Giles does not use them.
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Yeah, this one seems to have a nice stock cover where the solenoid goes. I should note that this pump, stock, had no LDA assembly either.
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Has anyone had a pressure gauge on the pump to measure internal pressure increase when 12v is applied to the selenoid? I'm curious to know how much it advances with power to it.
My pump is timed to .96-.97ish right now, and from what i've read this selenoid only increases internal pressure up to 3000 rpm.
So if my pump is timed to .96-.97 with the selenoid unpowered, and i power it, am i to advanced??? Possibly risking pump damage? I do like the extra power but not if it means severely decreased pump life.
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The injection pump itself doesn't care if you are advanced or retarded. It definitely won't hurt the pump to have it more or less advanced. The only thing affected by timing is the actual combustion of fuel in the engine.