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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 1 6 D on January 05, 2020, 08:13:40 am

Title: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: 1 6 D on January 05, 2020, 08:13:40 am
Hi,

This is my first post. I want bring my old Golf for daily. But I can't set engine to run properly after some mods.

What I have done:
- cylinder head gasket from AAZ
- boost set up to 1.1 bar
- whole new exhaust including casted downpipe have 60mm now and 2 mufflers from GTI 16V
- boost pin turned to max

After that engine runs good. After last mod with injectors from 1,9 TD AAZ engine haven't power now. AAZ injectors have nozzles from my SB because they are in good shape. Opening pressure in injectors is 175 bar now. I can regulate actual pump or I have swap pump from AAZ or only cam plate plus some regulations? Or only change in timing will health this engine?
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: ORCoaster on January 05, 2020, 03:40:02 pm
Could it be that your Injection Pump, IP, is not capable of producing 175 bar pressure?  The previous injectors may have been only 135 bar. 

If the only thing you have done is change injectors then I would suspect a poor pump.  They do wear and there are a few things you can change to get past that wear.  But you need to be a fairly good mechanic to work on the pump without messing it up forever. 

Yes it is just metal and rubber parts but knowing when to pull and when not to is key to getting one apart without snapping the metering plunger that does much of the high pressure work.
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: 1 6 D on January 05, 2020, 04:05:27 pm
Fabric injectors were 155 bar.
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: ORCoaster on January 05, 2020, 04:40:19 pm
You have set the new injectors to be at 175 bar if I follow your thread.  That means you have to build more pressure to get them to open compared to the last ones you had in the engine at 155 bar.  The IP will need to build for a longer time to get it that high.  That will take time and what might be needed here is to advance you IP timing to account for that longer build time.

For an experiment in timing loosen all the IP hold down bolts, all four leaving the one in front just a bit tight.  Then start the engine and hold the IP still and loosen that last bolt.  Now grab the top of the IP and push it towards the engine, giving it more advance timing.  That should line up the shot of diesel going to the cylinders a bit better with the top of the piston coming up. 

If that raises the RPMs then lock the IP pump down, adjust the idle to a lower level, spec, and try driving it.  My guess it will perform much better than when you first installed the new injectors. 

If this does the job you will need to time the engine differently than in the manual.  Only trial and error will get you to the proper time for your modified setup now.  Measure what it is after the test. write that down, move it a bit more using the dial gauge and write that reading down.  Continue a few of these changes and drives over about a week until you can figure out if 1.4 or 1.7 or 1.0 is where the engine performs best. 

Good luck and keep us up to date on what it is you are doing and how it is working out. 
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: 1 6 D on January 05, 2020, 04:52:38 pm
Thank you for your answer. I forget to write that during drive and when turbo gives boost it works almoust like on previous injectors. i will write if engine will start work properly.
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: fatmobile on January 05, 2020, 07:47:17 pm
White smoke?
 Does the new pump have a cold start lever?
 How does the sound change when you pull it?
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: 1 6 D on June 17, 2020, 10:39:01 am
There is no new pump, original SB.

I'm thinking about AAZ pump 0460494444, it should be changed with wheel? Or I should buy TDI 10mm pump and swap plunger to original SB pump?
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: libbydiesel on June 17, 2020, 09:01:59 pm
Start simple, advance the pump timing.  As ORCoaster mentioned, developing an extra 20bar takes more plunger lift in order to inject the fuel at the same time as before.  Essential, by increasing the opening pressure, you retarded the timing. 
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: 1 6 D on June 18, 2020, 12:54:12 am
Timing is now advanced. I found that Peugeot 1,9td have 90/92HP and 9mm bosch ve with 175bar opening pressure for injectors. Maybe same parts from that pump canon help make bigger pressure without make timing with setting from documentation?
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: sgnimj96 on June 18, 2020, 08:06:48 am
internal fuel-pump pressure is often overlooked
Increasing that increases dynamic advance,  even at idle.
Old pumps are notorious for being low, most people advance the timing in other ways to compensate.
Even diesel injection shops have to fabricate something to get a gauge on the pump to set the internal pressure while the pump is spinning.
Legend has it, if internal pressure is correct,  the return from the pump should put out ~16oz of fuel in 1 minute.
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: ORCoaster on June 18, 2020, 11:02:50 pm
I second sgnimj96 on the internal pressure being low for most old pumps.  Getting it set to something near the 43-45 lbs at 1000 RPMs is tough to do without some sort of adapter on the out bolt.  The best way to get close is to measure output into some container and time it. 

My memory is that legend (Hagar) said one liter in 90 seconds.  I may need to go dig that spec out to verify but even 16 ozs in 60 seconds are close and will be fine for most of us. 


Boom shoccalocaa.  http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,33099.0.html

Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: sgnimj96 on June 19, 2020, 12:01:17 pm
The Legend of "Hagar and The Holy Grail"...

https://web.archive.org/web/20160420200053/http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5936&sid=586e5a76498c92e807bae59d3c04498d
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: smutts on July 02, 2020, 06:46:45 am
Quote
The Legend of "Hagar and The Holy Grail"...

I'm feeling old now. ::)

Several VE pumps that I've looked at had poor transfer pressures, and tapping that pin does wonders, BUT it is VERY sensitive to adjustment. If you search transfer pressures about ten years ago I think there will be a table of the desired pressures.

Air bubbles also mess things up, probably due to their effect on transfer pressure, and or the retarding effect of compressing an emulsion of air in the injector lines before the injectors break open.

Another complication with higher nozzle pressures, or larger diameter plungers, is that the plunger now needs extra force. This will be made by extra turning force to push the camplate uphill of the rollers. This extra torque will push against the timing piston at the bottom of the pump, and retard it.

I've explained it badly, but have a think, and you should get the idea. ???

Regards.
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: smutts on July 02, 2020, 06:51:52 am
Just a thought, were not the AAZ injectors a dual lift design? I've no idea if the SB nozzles would work with these injectors?
 
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: smutts on July 02, 2020, 07:42:44 pm
Transfer Pressures I used for my SB engined 1.6 GTD,

36-46psi@1000rpm
67-75psi@3000rpm
94-103psi@4500rpm,
these are engine rpm's

Best of luck.
Title: Re: VW Golf 2 1,6 TDLLK SB modifications
Post by: ORCoaster on July 02, 2020, 08:02:07 pm
I followed that.  Higher pop pressures give retarded timing.  So some of us bump that up when we put on 155 bar in place of 130's  It does make the pump work a bit harder.  I wonder if that is why they developed the 10 mm pump in place of the 9 mm early on. 

And yes tapping that adjustment pin is very touchy.  If you go to far you have to remove it, drive it all the way out and start over.  Since it doesn't get a lot of movement during its life it is sticky and PB Blaster or other penetrating oil is a good soak the night before you head out with the punch, hammer and bottle to collect the flow.