VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => Non VW Group Diesel => Topic started by: NintendoKD on July 21, 2012, 01:41:18 am
-
I am helping a friend rebuild a 6.2 detroit from an M1009. This is an N/A motor, will be running 5 psi from a 6.5 turbo setup. I was curious about injector selection and wanted to do some research on dual spring/rate injectors, egts are driven down, as well as improving performance and economy, and emissions "although not an issue" this also reduces piston rattle. now take a 1.9 aaz that is ~ .475l per cyl. where the 6.2 has ~.775l per cyl. I wonder if this will be a problem. I am curious about spray patterns between the two, and injection pressures as well, what breaking pressures are they rated for? can I adjust to make the AAZ injectors work? "question directed toward Jedi Master Giles" are there other IDI injectors that will work? There really isn't a performance community for IDI's out here at all. Someone told me that you can't make good power on the IDI engines with forced induction because of the way that they work, why is that, or are they waaay off? I was privy to quite the contrary.
thanks,
Kevin
-
Use NA precups, and Banks manifolds.
you are barking up the wrong tree with VW injectors. Marine injectors maybe
Dont cheap out on Glow plugs, they are terrible to change behind the turbo.
HMMV cooling mod and 6.5 serpentine setup.
You can't make good power from a GM 6.2/6.5 because it will blow apart, but they do OK at 'doesn't suck' power.
-
that is NOT a detroit diesel..
its a GM diesel that detroit re-designed..
a REAL detroit is a 2 stroke, and supercharged.. aka "screamin jimmy"
and i dont think you can use a complete VW injector in a 6.2.. i think you use JUST THE NOZZLES. but i would still use the MARINE 6.2/6.5 nozzles.
300hp is the absolute top end of the power spectrum for the GM idi..
scheid has a 6.5TTD (twin turbo, lots of flow) thats still not breaking 350hp, because it blows up every time they push it past that..
-
thanks for the info guys, what is the failure point of the engine just for curiosities sake? This has been extremely helpful.
-
Depends which one you have, but mostly the relating to the crank, heads, or #7 cyl.
-
but mostly the relating to the crank, heads,
Basically the entire engine.. ;) lol. Worst thing ever designed.
-
not true, they run damn near forever if you maintain them, just don't like more power than stock, so crank is weak sauce, webbing in the mains is weak sauce, cooling system sucks, could use oil squirters "like a vw" valvetrain is weaksauce "pushrod motor" what else is new? what else are the weak points? If the flattie v-8 was dropped "and it had very similar issues" for these then it wouldn't be the engine that it is today, It really surprises me that no one does anything more with this thing. I am looking at a stronger forged crank, flat plane, because it can rev no prob, roller cam and roller rockers "not weak aluminum ones" better pushrods, no overlap cam with a different profile to take advantage of forced induction, arp built bottom end with mains girdle and re-enforced webbing. these are rather liberal mods that can make a big difference in both performance and longevity, not cheap because of the availability of parts, but the block is similar in design to others so I should be able top cross reference something right? There has to be a community out there that caters to these. I just have the extreme pleasure of finding them, well......... Challenge Accepted!
-
There is a community, try 'chevy cummins' or www.duramaxforum.com
It already has roller cam, non aluminum shaft rockers, non overlap cam.
Mine also has expensive studs, and benefits plenty form forced induction. At 150K, its on head gaskets #3+, and block #2+. It runs as good as a 6.5T, and gets slightly better Mileage.
Fundamentally, weak top end + weak bottom end leaves what? fuel system plagued by inadequate filtration? = weak motor.
You still haven't addressed #7 burning up, chronic HG failure, or the harmonic balancer fragging.
-
look here, there are no bad engines, just bad engineers ::)
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx
good info
-
I don't think these are necessarily bad engines, for a light-duty diesel.
But putting them in the HMMVW was a bad idea.
-
look here, there are no bad engines, just bad engineers ::)
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx
good info
The Optimizer 6500 diesel engine now produces 205 hp and 440 ft.lbs. of torque....Sorry, the bad news is that you cannot buy a new block from GEP.
So, even after you replace all of the engine with expensive aftermarket stuff that isn't for sale, you come out with 1/3 less power than a lightly modded 12V Cummins, and there is no mention of average time between rebuilds. Even an IDI 7.3 makes better power than that with a $700 used turbo kit.
-
you can still buy AM general 6500s
they are the GOOD 6.5TD.. upgraded blocks, heads, everything..
thats what they use in the HMMV, not a regular old 6.2/6.5
the AM general engines are good. weve used them in a couple different boats without issues..
if they last in a boat, they will last in anything..
-
I don't think these are necessarily bad engines, for a light-duty diesel.
But putting them in the HMMVW was a bad idea.
ladies and gentleman, we have a winner, waaaaay too much driveline drag, and got even worse with UP armor, the weight was just too much for it. I therefore second that motion
-
What are you talking about? DL drag is the same as any other GM 4x4 truck, and an M1152 weighs #6200, slightly less than my Suburban.
The armored TOW launcher model weighs the same as me with the popup trailer kitted for camping, and it gets worse advertised MPG's than I ever have, despite having one more gear.
*specs from the AM general site.
-
the GM PRODUCED IDI diesels were ALL JUNK..
the AM GENERAL "OPTIMIZER 6500" is not a GM 6.5TD.. it bolts in the same spot, but they are much tougher..
thats what the HMMV got.. the 6500 optimizer is different. way better..
"Today, AM General continues to build the latest developed rendition of the 6.5L for many military application vehicles, the most popular of which is the High Mobility Multi-Purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV, better known as the HUMVEE). The Optimizer 6500 diesel engine now produces 205 hp and 440 ft.lbs. of torque and there have been numerous improvements made to ensure its long term reliability. It’s definitely NOT the same old GM 6.5L."
that quote was stolen off this web page..
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Item/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx (http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Item/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx)
-
4BT w/ injectors, $300 turbo, and gov mod, although intercooling would be good at this point.
How much does a running optomiser cost?
-
all 32+ MPG of it cost me 1,000 big ones, but they can be had for cheaper elsewhere cuz folks don't know what they have.
-
So you got a complete running 200 HP military 6.5,? for $`1000, and you claim it gets 32+ MPG?
That MPG I think is doable, but you'll need to install it in something like a C4 Corvette.
-
Not a military one, came in a 96' 3500 4X4 with the manual tranny, had a bad flywheel. I am installing it into a 75' c-10 scottsdale longbed with a th400 tranny, 3.73 rear end, would prefer a built 700r4 but I'll go with what i have for now. A good bed cover and some clever modifications and it will def see 32+MPG.
-
So you got a complete running 200 HP military 6.5,? for $`1000, and you claim it gets 32+ MPG?
That MPG I think is doable, but you'll need to install it in something like a C4 Corvette.
no way you will EVER see 32mpg in a full size chevy truck..
-
Not a military one, came in a 96' 3500 4X4 with the manual tranny, had a bad flywheel. I am installing it into a 75' c-10 scottsdale longbed with a th400 tranny, 3.73 rear end, would prefer a built 700r4 but I'll go with what i have for now. A good bed cover and some clever modifications and it will def see 32+MPG.
Well them my statement stands, it would cost far less to upgrade a even a 4BT to 205/440 than the $1000 motor you have now.
With a TH400 and 3.73s, on the highway @65 you will get less than 17, esp with the 6.5 heads.
Mine gets 14.5, but I have toolboxes and 4x4.
-
4BT would have been MUCH BETTER, cheaper, gotten better economy, and been really cool, all while still using a GM trans..
6.5s only got 20mpg on a good day. where are you coming up with 12mpg more than they ever got? what kinda magic?
cause unless your 75 C10 weighs 2000 pounds, with the engine in it, then it will NEVER see 32mpg.
the 5.7 diesels got better economy than the 6.5 ever did, and those never got anywheres close to 32 mpg.
plain and simple, 32 mpg isnt gonna happen with a C10, 6.5TD, TH400, and 3.73 gears.. just not gonna happen.
-
The way more efficient 24v Cummins can't even hit 32mpg in a full size. They do 20hwy in a full size ram.
-
The way more efficient 24v Cummins can't even hit 32mpg in a full size. They do 20hwy in a full size ram.
my dads duramax is tuned GOOD, and it still only gets 23mpg..
got better MPG on old diesel..
i believe that Kevin may have given up on us tho..
too many of us think he is completely bat-s*** crazy...