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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: monomer on March 05, 2013, 05:56:32 pm
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Greetings all.
I have a rather nice mk1 that I plan on autocrossing, and daily driving. When I was young and dumb I started a 1.6 build, not really knowing of the Mtdi.
I currently moonlight in a well-know local TDI shop, so coming across an ALH is easy enough. Reallying like the TDI as a powerplant.
Problem is, I have a rather large assortment of 1.6 parts collected. From what I can tell, an mtdi is the way to go for the power I want to see, as the 1.6 is rather weak in comparison. At this point it might be cheaper to sell off all the 1.6 parts and drop in an mtdi, keeping the cable 020 trans (I have spares...) and sourcing a proper pump from on here.
I guess I'm just looking for some opinions before I unload stuff and make the call. Also, what kind of power/torque do people make - A quick search didn't turn up much.
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Mtdi all the way
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What are your power goals?
Personally, I think that if you have all the 1.6 parts do it. If you didn't have all the parts I would say M TDI. I have found once you have the parts you never get close to what you want or what you have in them when you go to sell.
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What are your power goals?
Personally, I think that if you have all the 1.6 parts do it. If you didn't have all the parts I would say M TDI. I have found once you have the parts you never get close to what you want or what you have in them when you go to sell.
But,
I might go all out on the 1.6, push the engine wayyy past what it's intended for and completely blow up 3k in parts.
or, I could do an mtdi and be happy with power/torque without pushing it.
I think I just need to find someone that wants the lot of parts.
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What are your power goals?
what can an mtdi do?
I want torque down low, that's most important.
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What are your power goals?
what can an mtdi do?
I want torque down low, that's most important.
An M-TDI can do pretty much anything you want it to - your goals are the important thing. I'm looking to build a bruiser of an M-TDI that will be running on the north side of 175HP but there are tradeoffs with that - to get what I want I'm going to need a fairly large turbo that won't spool anywhere near as soon as a smaller one and I'm probably going to have to put up with some smoke till it is spun up.
Your turbo choice will make the biggest difference in terms of low end torque. A smaller K03 or a VNT15 will start spooling just off of idle, providing you with plenty of low end and absolutely no smoke, though it will limit you at higher RPMs. VNT turbos are awesome for low end though you need to come up with some sort of control system for them.
The 1.6TD is a great engine but it takes a lot to get it over about 115HP. The stock turbo is pretty laggy too and doesn't really come on until 2200-2500 RPM. Again though, if you put a small turbo on it you can have plenty of low end grunt. More displacement will always win in the end though, that's why I'm going to an M-TDI myself. It'll get better mileage, have more power and start better cold - what's not to like?
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turbo I have on hand is a t25 garett, 52 trim.
I think I'll go mtdi.
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What are your power goals?
what can an mtdi do?
I want torque down low, that's most important.
An M-TDI can do pretty much anything you want it to - your goals are the important thing. I'm looking to build a bruiser of an M-TDI that will be running on the north side of 175HP but there are tradeoffs with that - to get what I want I'm going to need a fairly large turbo that won't spool anywhere near as soon as a smaller one and I'm probably going to have to put up with some smoke till it is spun up.
Your turbo choice will make the biggest difference in terms of low end torque. A smaller K03 or a VNT15 will start spooling just off of idle, providing you with plenty of low end and absolutely no smoke, though it will limit you at higher RPMs. VNT turbos are awesome for low end though you need to come up with some sort of control system for them.
The 1.6TD is a great engine but it takes a lot to get it over about 115HP. The stock turbo is pretty laggy too and doesn't really come on until 2200-2500 RPM. Again though, if you put a small turbo on it you can have plenty of low end grunt. More displacement will always win in the end though, that's why I'm going to an M-TDI myself. It'll get better mileage, have more power and start better cold - what's not to like?
I think you could do 115 with a stock TD pump with a gov. mod and turned up fuel.
Again, what are your goals and I could tell you a better guess at what would be better. You will never get the money you will want out of your parts.
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You will never get the money you will want out of your parts.
Never do, but losses must happen sooner or later..
I third (or maybe fourth) the recommendation for the M-TDI. Take the engine in COMPLETELY stock form for instance, by just adding the mechanical pump and adding a manual boost controller to allow more boost you are already out of the realm of the 1.6 for torque.
I have had all four D engines in an mk1 within the last 2 years.. 1.6D, 1.6TD, 1.9AAZ and 1.9M-TDI AHU. The difference between my M-TDI and the 1.6 TD is not even comparable..
I had the 1.6 boosting 20psi (no inter-cooler) and the 9mm pump physically turned up as far as it would go with the gov mod. Nothing spectacular, newer cars would still walk it no problem.
I currently have my m-tdi with no inter cooler and the tiny k03 boosting about 15psi. I have the 11mm pump turned up pretty far with no gov mod yet (dont need it as I never go above 3500rpm..). I can take most cars and make them look like they are not trying, from a dead start or a rolling start (way better with roll starts as traction is less of an issue.. lol). All of this with no smoke, boost from 1300.. and all the torque I could ask for. (I commonly tow 1500lbs with it..)
You want torque, the 1.9 DI engines will always prevail.. I wouldn't even consider the 1.6 as an option to be honest.
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8) me tdi-m all day.. precups is only reason why.. for cost of build.. pre cup fall out issue... im tdi all way...
now do not get me wrong... a few here know of a "idi" build im bout to do.. im going to do basic things and test as normal... need to buy a gopro.. then say lastt 30 or so days of season my goal is to lift the head off the block..
im going to have little in the proto set up im wanting to make... under 200 in the head/block bolted together needing turbo/pump.. im adding nos and propain to it.. serious im going to lift its head off the block... i want to see what it can take and what to break... i will own a gopro for this vid... then after i scatter it.. ill tell all online what i built.. if the idea works.. will be sweet for idi people..
me expecting high rev.. low comp for lots of boost.. 15 year old plan i never got too.. now i owns the stuff to do it... thinking bolted into jackrabbit = win.. fast diesel im going to blow up on purpose... :D gopro!! required.. my design secret to 4 here.. they all wanna see too.. but me guini pig.. just may be year.. else ill test in my 84 coupe this summer w/junk hood.. im going to lift its head i swear... jack rabbit design = better gopro vid.. why im kinda want to wait..
p.s. the 4 who know what im up to donated the parts to build it except gaskets.. ;) my ideas suck.. i figure vid of broken = win forthose involved.. will be u tube king..
why the idi proto engine.... cost.. all im doing is gaskets to test.. no machine work, bearings or anthing.. my idea is off a tested one back in 92ish... it was a fail... but in those discussions i had a idea that at that time cost was way wrong.. now.. cost = win.. theory in end = less then 1.6 idi current dipped in gold prices.. and tdi bend over price.. why i need to know how it can fail.. so lifting its head.. ;D
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I wouldn't even consider the 1.6 as an option to be honest.
IN FACT! thinking back on this.. There is nothing about the 1.6 that is in any way close to, or better than the 1.9 TDI engines.
Proof??
Volkswagen did away with the 1.6 IDI for a reason.. The TDI was their 6th/7th generation diesel engine.. They worked the bugs out completely by the ALH, and then went back to the drawing board and frigged it all up! 1Z/AHU/ALH, are some of the best engines ever designed.. in history.
*** 6th/7th generation being chronologically as follows;
- 1.5 IDI 11mm block, mechanical
- 1.6 IDI 11mm block
- 1.6 IDI adding 12mm block
- 1.6 IDI adding hydraulic
- 1.9 IDI
- 1.9 DI (1Z/AHU)
- 1.9 DI (ALH)
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This is an IDI board for the most part that I don't want to see die. If he had to go buy the entire setup I would agree that M is the way to go, but I like the old school diesel stuff and he has the 1.6 already.
I have an 01 alh with Malone stage 2 installed. My Giles 9mm pump equiped mk2 jetta would run circles around it. The main difference in the way it pulls is the turbo. K24 is a little laggy but I would be making 5psi at 1700 RPM or so and 7-10 by that 2200rpm number you guys said it takes to start lighting. The 01 VNT is instant and I really don't like it being instant, but then it pulls great to 3,000RPM and that is it. I like the bigger turbos period.
My thinking is keep all your 1.6 stuff add a Giles pump, run it for a couple years and then sell it if you want the M swap. You will get about the same ammount of cash if not the same exactly if you sold it all now. This is why I asked about your power goals, I don't think 200hp in the 1.6 is all that difficult. 175hp easier yet. 150hp I think could be done with a ported head and stock turbo, probably Giles pump, but I bet a stock pump could get you there smokier. Anyhow, run the giles pump for a year or 3 and you will get almost the money out of it as what you paid, so are you really out anything? Just thinking out loud and guessing but this is basically my answer if you would have answered my question of goals.
Having lost a precup in an otherwise healthy awesome engine I agree with CRSMP5 in the precup being the main reason. I like my 01 for its comfort, AC, fuel economy (almost identical between this and the IDI though) and the fact that it cannot explode due to precup falling out. I do not like it for performance reasons.
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I like my 01 for its comfort, AC, fuel economy. I do not like it for performance reasons.
Stock ALH against a heavily modified 1.6TD?? Hardly comparable. Do all the same mods you did to the 1.6 to the 1.9 and watch it leave the 1.6 standing still.
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It is not stock. It is .216 and stage 2. It is almost the same ammount of $$$ spent *just engine upgrades* in both. I had maybe 750.00 more in the 1.6. Then I had to do a clutch upgrade for the TDI as it wouldn't handle it stock, add another 469.00. Per dollar spent I would say that the 1.6 I built vs the TDI is no comparison, but not in favor of the TDI by any means. Yes eventually I think the TDI would be better, maybe the M TDI much better??? But per dollar spent, NO, not unless you find a "cheap" TDI to start. I had TONS of $$$ in my MK2 but when you figure just the engine, I didn't have that much. If it were running already before I started much much less.
If he DIDN"T ALREADY HAVE the 1.6 I would agree with you. Not for performance, but the precup issue only. I again say, what are the goals as it is pointless to say what is better until I know what is the end of it all.
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8v.. before his stage 2.. something like 1.5 he followed my 81 na coupe.. lets just say he was impressed i could keep out of his way.. but mine 1/2 the weight... mk4 is a pig vs mk1... and gutted mk1 silly vs seats.. kill sound deadning and stuff a na mk1 is fun.. so much more nimble..
i agree this is a idi board.. with no idi it would be dead... but same token its a idi board.. no others out there per say.. way many more 1.6 idi out there then id.. of a single design...
1.5 and 1.6 share lots.. with mods heads can be swapped.. things like rods/pistonsscrank denote it..
aaz, 1z and ahu.. same parts again.. swap a head, pistons and build tdi or aaz..
then you have...
alh.. 4 years used?
pd what 3-4 years used.. junk engines they are...
then current suck pump 11-13k to fix bs with 35mpg.. buy honda for more imo.. why...
so of all the designs.. idi used longest.. mix n match more.. tdi.. no mix/match.. what you can do to one varies hard left for the others too..
look at the pd.. junk cams.. look at all the years of diesel pre that.. they did not eat cams... have oil pump drive issues.. the older *** better... but now worn, value is stupid... i used to buy rot free mk1s for under 300$ cannot buy a blown up sitting in pile idi for that now..
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lucas.. maybe you need bigger turbo on tdi? :)
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Haha, a stage 2 and .216's does NOT by any means even come close to the performance mods done to the 1.6. Dollar for dollar? Sure. But who cheaps out on a power build?
If you did all the same mods to the ALH as you have done to the 1.6, you will be in to it for more money.. but you will have WAY more engine. My M-TDI is a stock AHU with only the 11mm pump added. DAMN. I can slip the brand new 210mm clutch in 5th when the boost hits (1700). I have done no mods to it, other than the turned up 11mm and 15psi.. Your stage 2 will not move as much fuel as I am moving, its still a 10mm pump after all.
I have .216's, a T3, and an AWIC planned.. I will have no traction in 1-3 and slip the clutch for all of 4 and 5.
Basically though, I get what you are saying dollar for dollar.
If you want the most reliable torque.. M-TDI 1Z/AHU/ALH
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I could dig up the reciepts but it isn't worth it to me. I know I had 300 in the stage 2 and another 250 in the flashzilla, then the nozzles were a few hundo. The Giles pump was 700 or 650 USD back when the FED *END THE FED- Ron Paul* hadn't devalued our currency to the point it is now. Same pump now would cost over 1,000 USD. I had to have my head rebuilt, if it were running I wouldn't have but I had 500 in the rebuild of the head 150.00 of it was porting and the only "performance" part of it. Most all other things were not "performance" or I built them myself. OR it was stuff like the trans, suspension, body work, poly bushings and sway bars, rims, etc. that have no bearing on the power the engine makes. So while I do have a mint in the MK2 the actual go fast parts were under 2,000.00 USD....this feels like I am having the same conversation over and over, my wife wants me to sell the thing and everytime I work on it I go through this.
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if i had 3k to blow on each of my cars.. all 4 would be a m... by the time of tranny/clutch so on.. its a 3k endever.. if you start off with something not needing tons of work..
my m..
600 for car.. bad pump.. po decided to screw with it.. i figured out pump 6 teeth off, cam off.. carbon knocked off where hit pistons...
1k rebuild parts w injectros so on..
175 in my ic, and new 100mm 16v rocco axles..
pump.. if id had to pay.. 5 bills.. but tradded things..
ic pipes/couplers/egt gauge so on.. add 500.. that little crap builds up fast..
clutch = $$..
the bad alt 200+
why 3k.. how many 600$ tdi out there
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why 3k.. how many 600$ tdi out there
I made profit on my M-TDI swap.. ? Bwahah
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me be so far ahead on my next diesel engine im going to blow it up... on purpose.. :P once i see its destruction.. and know how it worked.. that idi set up long block ~500ish.. rebuilt with new parts.. aka used hard parts with new wear parts.. and with real pump, turbo i expect to spank my m with the prop and nos... and it cost so little to fix the i blew it up.. my m.. no.. i break it.. expect 1k right now..
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I am searching locally for the next cheap high miles TDI to pop up so I can swap out the 1.6 TD in the 88.
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that was rotfloor one in my eyes... they want 1500+ for rot floor.. bad pump tdi here... with 250k+ so know valve guides gone.. so head rebuild for all that too..
hill folks tall block bare was 6 bills...
my screwed up on.. 6 bills with 02a conversion.. stuff i did sell off it so on... but hell realism is expect 3k for a get going m build between pump, engine, tranny, mounts so on..
my 81 coupe i have 550$ in.. including used head and all when it dropped a valve... 6th winter.. car = winner... last year though.. 2x4 holding seat in place as bottom clip really bad now..
that engine will sit for something of mine till used.. proto engine will be more fun.. and less value then the coupes na.. if the seat could be held in place on the coupe.. proto would blow in it this season... but too unsafe so thinking jackrabbit in 18 or so months..
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CRSMP5,want to share a bit more on what you are testing on IDI engines?
i am on the IDI side,for most guys the tdi benefits are not in the engine but in the turbo,gearbox and cooling upgrades.
i have a 1.9td with vnt20,cyp gearbox and i dont feel the need for a tdi...for sure!
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For most guys the tdi benefits are not in the engine but in the turbo,gearbox and cooling upgrades.
I disagree strongly. I have two 1.9L powered mk1's in my driveway that with drivers weight differences weigh just over 100lbs apart. One is a 1.9L 9mm TD and the other a 1.9L 11mm TDI. Both fully mechanical and both with the same k03 turbo. Both running 14-15psi non inter-cooled. Both with 020 trannies, TD is a 7A and the TDI has an ACN.
Even with taller ring and pinion and wider gearing, I still rape the TD in the TDI by a long shot. Nothing is different except for IDI vs. TDI and pump plunger size. I have my 9mm turned all the way up, and the 11mm turned way down (no inter cooler and stock injectors)
I feel the TD has the ability to move more fuel than the TDI stock because its injectors are way over sized, and are substantially bigger than the TDI's stock .184".
The TDI can match the TD in power with 15% less fueling, same fueling? It will have more power. I don't lnow of many AAZ or 1.6 TD's making 200 reliable horsepower with bolt ons either. If anything I'd choose the TDI motor just because it is the next gen and is a more reliable and robust engine platform.
Just my $.02
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The difference in gearing would be a huge benefit. Speaking in truck terms the TDI would have 4.11 gears compared to 3.73 gears in the IDI. With that jump the TDI should have more "snap". The 11mm pump would make a huge difference too.
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You are backwards on the gearing. The IDI has 3.94 gears and my TDI has the 3.67, the IDI should have the more "snap".
The 11mm would make a huge difference if it were pumping to potential yes, but it is severely turned down. Like my max fuel screw is nearly turned all the way out :o. Whereas the 9mm is turned all the way up on all settings.
Basically though at stock settings for both AAZ and the 1Z/AHU they are very similar but are worlds apart in the torque department.
66 kilowatts (90 PS; 89 bhp) @ 4,000 rpm; 202 newton metres (149 lbf·ft) @ 1,900 rpm — 1Z, AHU
55 kilowatts (75 PS; 74 bhp) @ 4,200 rpm; 150 newton metres (111 lbf·ft) @ 2,000 rpm — AAZ
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the idi thing.. honestly dont wanna put it on the web as if it works or does not work i do not wanna be a arss..
back in 91-93 someone tried something.. it was a fail.. pre 1.9 stuff here.. when i heard of it in 94ish i mentoned a way it could be made to work.. and well still never tested...
i trully think it will work.. till tried who knows.. but i have guni parts to try it out now.. i have a car to test it in.. just be a year..
so if you want ill let you pick my brain via pm but i will not tell my parts or what ive done.. but if you can follow how i talk an dsuch.. and you know anything abt vw 4 bangers from 75-99.5 with pre 1.9 diesel info.. stuff no exist.. your kinda stuck with what can be done..
1.5 or 1.6 head.. hydro vs no.. so 4 head options..
blocks..
1.5, 1.6 1.7 1.8 and 2.0
since aaz came out.. it resolved a few issues that my idea did not work till that point.. and skirts me way round garenteed fail.. with added this should be good feelings..
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It still travels 11mm no?
Sorry I read it as the TD had the 3.67
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It still travels 11mm no?
No sir, that number is the size of the diameter of the plunger. It travels roughly 3.14mm in the AAZ, but I did not measure my rover pumps cam plate lift when I had it apart. As well as 2.26mm of plunger movement for the 1.6 TD.
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So it would be 3.14x 11mm vs 3.14x 9mm ???
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Correct on the second measurement, but I do not have the information for the cam lift of the Rovers cam plate.. so I cannot say for sure.
Yes physically the plunger will move more fuel.. but as you know the fueling can be de tuned by turning the max fuel screw down. This decreases the amount of throw the internal throttle has on the control collar, opening up the spill ports at a sooner time and thus injecting less fuel per stroke. The plunger moves the same stroke for idle or WOT, but the position of the control collar is what meters fuel injected.
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so does the arm on the splines. I don't see it as a good comparision unless both pumps were the same. Put your rover on the aaz and report back.
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So does the arm on the splines.
No sir, that only compresses the governor springs which in turn pulls on the internal throttle and moves the control collar up the plunger to allow more fuel to be injected.
It is not a perfect comparison, but it is good enough. I ran my TDI on a fully turned up 9mm 1.6TD pump to begin with post swap and it still had more torque than the AAZ or 1.6TD. Ran out of top end fueling though.
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That is kinda what I was going for on the spline comment
Slap the landy pump on the aaz and do a run. I say that as not only will the fueling be different but I am sure the advance curve is as well. It will be night and day I bet.
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No can do, its got the big snout. Will not fit the pump bracket.
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That is kinda what I was going for on the spline comment
Aye' but it still does not move the control lever any further in relation to the plunger or as far as a DI pump does. The IDI pumps under-fueled my DI engine big time in stock form. And even then again as a 10mm DI hybrid with modified long throw internal lever.
That is why I said in stock form, they are similar in displacement, turbo and fueling. 9mm and big injectors vs 10mm and small injectors.
With the same fueling the DI will always be more powerful, its in the engine design.
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Aye' but it still does not move the control lever any further in relation to the plunger or as far as a DI pump does. The IDI pumps under-fueled my DI engine big time in stock form. And even then again as a 10mm DI hybrid with modified long throw internal lever.
EXACTLY my point dear Watson. The TDI is getting more fuel no matter how you want to cut the pie, it is getting a bigger piece. At least that is the way I percieve it.
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So it would be 3.14x 11mm vs 3.14x 9mm ???
Actually, you want to take the radius^2 x pi x camplate lift. 95.0mm^3 vs. 63.6mm^3.
Maxed out, tho, the IDI can't burn as much fuel per rev and what it does burn, it burns less efficiently. At the same EGTs and same RPMs, the TDI wins. The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power. IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
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I liked your comment Libby in my imaginary facebook world.
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.
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Mtdi all the way
YEAH BABY! TDI was the successor for a reason!
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm. i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure. a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.
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had a friend with a 1.9td,with a maxxed out 9mm pump.
he changed to a 10mm(not a 11mm!) and he needed to make the fuel screw almost stick out to match the same power levels...
also,at high rpm a bigger plunger will benefit in eficiency in burn as it will inject more fuel in the same time.
a 9mm could inject the same fuel but most times out of time resulting in smoke but no power.
on a modded engine tdi will win in reliability,but on my head its just because IDI´s investigation stoped many years ago.
~with the right materials and developement i think those problems would be over.
but i think its like 2 stroke engines...
they are smokey,noisier and eat more fuel but damn!they are fun lol
some factors make 2 stroke engines research stop in favor of 4 stroke and i guess its very hard to invert that tendency,just like IDI engines...
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm. i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure. a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.
a TDI spinning 10 grand? yea, no...
sorry, but i dont believe that without video proof..
specially when the hottest of hot are only running like 7000rpm redline..
you sure? 10000rpms is B Series territory... maybe it wasnt 10 grand?
a stock pump with a gov mod will spin higher than 5500... mine spins 6 grand on a stock 9mm pump, turned all the way up..
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mine spins 6 grand on a stock 9mm pump, turned all the way up..
why spin up so far?? You gain noooooootthhhiiiinnnnggggg
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10 grand is what he said its a heavily modified engine. i find it hard to believe myself, but here it is.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=294625720642725 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=294625720642725)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=282740261831271 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=282740261831271)
goran says
"Ok Trying again, from 1,6L I have done 177whp, A norweigian car that after this winter goes up in dyno again. Pump is 11 mm rotor, 110cc of fuel, I have a video of it on my FB here somwhere laste year. The highest rew is probably the 1,9TDI engine in a Dutch minipuller, rews around 10000rpm, special camshaft, pistons, Bosch A-serie pump with strong springs in it."
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had a friend with a 1.9td,with a maxxed out 9mm pump.
he changed to a 10mm(not a 11mm!) and he needed to make the fuel screw almost stick out to match the same power levels...
also,at high rpm a bigger plunger will benefit in eficiency in burn as it will inject more fuel in the same time.
a 9mm could inject the same fuel but most times out of time resulting in smoke but no power.
on a modded engine tdi will win in reliability,but on my head its just because IDI´s investigation stoped many years ago.
~with the right materials and developement i think those problems would be over.
but i think its like 2 stroke engines...
they are smokey,noisier and eat more fuel but damn!they are fun lol
some factors make 2 stroke engines research stop in favor of 4 stroke and i guess its very hard to invert that tendency,just like IDI engines...
yes this is very true about the investigation of idi, but when it comes down to it the tdi is easier and cheaper to manufacture i am sure, and with all the latest technology it is far ahead of did tech. i have done some reading on newer prechamber designs that kept the heat in the combustion chamber better. but i think a head and pistons that are easy to cast or forge ended up being the route of manufactures rather than a head that needed extra machining and special metals. plus less reliable due to precup dropping, although they don't seem to do this from normal use.
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I think the lack of juice in my TDI is the tiny VNT 15. I don't like instant boost and a level off of power. I think a newer design waste gated turbo would be better suited for my liking. But I am not spending the coin on it to do it.
I agree as one who spent around 1,600.00 in my 1.6 IDI engine that dropped a precup. I think the TDI is the better design. I just don't like the way it performs with my setup. I would love to stick a 30 year old T3 on it and see what it could do. I am just kind of pissy that spending over 1,000.00 in upgrades to the TDI it doesn't absolutely whip the crap out of the IDI that is 3/4 its displacement.
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm. i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure. a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.
Ok. I'm just relaying what I've read in Bosch books on diesel engine management.
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Gotta pay to play, its newer tech.. clearly gonna be more.
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm. i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure. a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.
Ok. I'm just relaying what I've read in Bosch books on diesel engine management.
Until he told me that I would have never thought it was true searching my old posts would put me in the same seat as you
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wont the chambers droping be a past problem if they did continued the developement?
here opel 1.7td engine(isuzu) are used and there are many that pull serious power,without that problem.
have seen them going against e36 M3 and with so they can put out power and mantain some reliability...
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Dropping prechamber has nothing to do with power.
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Dropping prechamber has nothing to do with power.
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Please do tell. I think it is a heat brought on by fueling brought on by the desire for power. I am interested in how it happens.
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I certainly believe that pre-chambers crack depending on how hot the combustion temps get which depends on how hard they are run. I have had the opportunity to pull apart quite a few higher mileage engines 1.6TDs. The condition of the pre-chamber inserts seems to be directly in line with that belief. Engines installed in vanagons usually have more cracks in the pre-chambers and head at 100,000 miles than the same stock engine in a golf/jetta will have at 300,000 miles. I pulled a head of a 1.6TD vanagon recently that had a documented 70,000 miles. There was fairly severe cracking in all four pre-chambers forming a T across the insert and there were cracks running from the two inner exhaust valves to the pre-chambers. ECOdiesel engines tend to have no cracks in the pre-chambers and little to no cracking between the valves.
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I certainly believe that pre-chambers crack depending on how hot the combustion temps get which depends on how hard they are run. I have had the opportunity to pull apart quite a few higher mileage engines 1.6TDs. The condition of the pre-chamber inserts seems to be directly in line with that belief. Engines installed in vanagons usually have more cracks in the pre-chambers and head at 100,000 miles than the same stock engine in a golf/jetta will have at 300,000 miles. I pulled a head of a 1.6TD vanagon recently that had a documented 70,000 miles. There was fairly severe cracking in all four pre-chambers forming a T across the insert and there were cracks running from the two inner exhaust valves to the pre-chambers. ECOdiesel engines tend to have no cracks in the pre-chambers and little to no cracking between the valves.
do you think its because the smaller ip and no aneroid? or better design/ materials?
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I think it's just because of less fuel and lower EGTs.
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Perhaps better dynamic advance would help keep the temps down, and thus reduce the thermal stress on the inserts?
Would custom inserts with larger openings / enlarged bowl help at all, or is it entirely a materials game? Might lowering the CR help? Anyone know of possible ceramic inserts that could be adapted, or if anyone could custom make them?
Currently have the head off my dad's '86 jetta to replace the HG, and the #4 insert looks like it was getting ready to grenade--cracked almost all the way across and bulging too, so naturally inserts are suddenly an interest of mine...
New inserts from Rockauto are on the way, but still quite interested in keeping the precup disaster from happening on a future power build I'm slowly putting together....
Perhaps it should just be a standard maintenance check to yank the head every x number of miles and check the inserts for cracking, at least on power builds that get run hard often?
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...a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.
Is it possible to get more information about this 1.6L TDI engine or his builder?
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the only thing i can really pass on is the pump builders name, zoltan kiss. i talk to him on facebook occasionally.
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Thanks.
Is it possible to get a link to the video?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl01uSDkU04
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Thanks a lot!