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Engine Specific Info and Questions => Non VW Group Diesel => Topic started by: R.O.R-2.0 on May 04, 2011, 11:47:33 am
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how hard is it on an 020 to power shift?
all my 020s that have been behind a diesel, i can almost never power shift them without grinding. the engine slows down too quick, and it seems like it always grinds.
someone was saying something along the lines of it being better to power shift an 020 than use the clutch? i dont see how its possible?
only time i really power shift alot, is when my clutch disk is slipping.. the clutch disk in my 4runner has been slipping for 60k miles.. lol.
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Power shifting anything is not really good for the trans, it increases the wear on the brass blocker (syncro) rings, and the shifter forks..... Even if you can get it down to having the throttle in the right place that it doesn't grind (I do it all the time in the Rabbit :-\)..
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the engine slows down too quick,
Don't let off.
I did it a lot on my FF, and had way more engine problems than tranny ones.
*not including shift rod popoff.
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Back when I had my 66 chevelle with a m22 4-speed I would power-shift it all the time.
The guy I got it from built the tranny and said he ground every other tooth off the brass syncro's.
You could buy the syncro's already done or grind them yourself. They were called slick-slider-syncro's IIRC.
Might work in the vw 020, but I would talk to a good tranny guy first.
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Back when I had my 66 chevelle with a m22 4-speed I would power-shift it all the time.
The guy I got it from built the tranny and said he ground every other tooth off the brass syncro's.
You could buy the syncro's already done or grind them yourself. They were called slick-slider-syncro's IIRC.
Might work in the vw 020, but I would talk to a good tranny guy first.
muncie M22 is slightly different than a 020 tho.. 8)
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Back when I had my 66 chevelle with a m22 4-speed I would power-shift it all the time.
The guy I got it from built the tranny and said he ground every other tooth off the brass syncro's.
You could buy the syncro's already done or grind them yourself. They were called slick-slider-syncro's IIRC.
Might work in the vw 020, but I would talk to a good tranny guy first.
muncie M22 is slightly different than a 020 tho.. 8)
Its alot different. My point was a way to make it less harsh on the vw 020 by grinding off every other tooth on the syncros.
It would be less work to just replace a slipping clutch tho, unless it was for a full time drag car.
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Back when I had my 66 chevelle with a m22 4-speed I would power-shift it all the time.
The guy I got it from built the tranny and said he ground every other tooth off the brass syncro's.
You could buy the syncro's already done or grind them yourself. They were called slick-slider-syncro's IIRC.
Might work in the vw 020, but I would talk to a good tranny guy first.
muncie M22 is slightly different than a 020 tho.. 8)
Its alot different. My point was a way to make it less harsh on the vw 020 by grinding off every other tooth on the syncros.
It would be less work to just replace a slipping clutch tho, unless it was for a full time drag car.
oh, i know what you meant.. but those muncies, you could darn near power shift with your pedal at full throttle and they wouldnt break a synchro ring.. lol..
020 trannies are weak as it is, i want my 020s to last as long as possible. i will stick with using the clutch pedal..
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Here's the way I see it, pushing the clutch pedal in you un-mate the crank shaft, and the main shaft of the tranny (ie. The trans and engine are now spinning different speeds). When you move the stick out of one gear and towards the next gear the synchros start trying to get that main shaft and the gear you are trying to select to the same speed. Power shifting in theory should make it easier job on the synchros if done correctly.. The trans and engine are always spinning the same speed.. Meaning the synchros don't have much work to do if you spin the trans up yourself via blipping the throttle.
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yes, everything is spinning the same speed while in gear.. but once your out of gear, something is not spinning the same.. thats why you have to change engine rpm..
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Right... but what the synchro's do (spin the mainshaft of the tranny, and the engine together) is already spinning together. You vary the throttle so that the driven gear and the rest of the transmission mesh. As long as your not grinding gears and slamming them home.. I don't see any more wear on the synchros happening versus using the clutch.. I mean sure one could argue why powershift when you have a clutch? Why not? ;) Why try and get power out of a diesel? Why not :D
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VWs power shift, yes..
they dont power shift very well tho.. thats what im saying..
my other vehicles, without shift linkages, power shift fine. but VWs being that they have shift links, it doesnt work so well..
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I agree there, with sloppy linkages/bushings it would be a hard feat. And yes a trans where you are directly moving the trans like a rwd trans would be much better candidate for power shifting.
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I agree there, with sloppy linkages/bushings it would be a hard feat. And yes a trans where you are directly moving the trans like a rwd trans would be much better candidate for power shifting.
on my toyota, being RWD, and a direct shift trans, i can power shift that thing like nobodys business.. did so for over 60k miles.. that thing was set up PERFECT for power shifting..
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I may have my terminology wrong but this thread is about rev matching and shifting without the clutch. Power shifting is when you use the clutch like a normal shift but unlike a normal shift you don't let off the accelerator thus applying power through the shift. If you rev match correctly it doesn't take any power at all to shift without the clutch.
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everyone with a 020 should learn this along with starting it in 2nd gear with no clutch pushed...
why.....
when cable breaks or pedal assembly breaks on a mk1...
it will get you home without a tow....
there is right/wrong ways...
do not force it.. it will slide like butter if done right... start practice in 3rd to 4th.. easiest one to do.. around town i tend to never use clutch in 3rd to 4th.. just falls in.. really does..
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I may have my terminology wrong but this thread is about rev matching and shifting without the clutch. Power shifting is when you use the clutch like a normal shift but unlike a normal shift you don't let off the accelerator thus applying power through the shift. If you rev match correctly it doesn't take any power at all to shift without the clutch.
Yes Your right, after researching it I found i had used the incorrect terminology. Rev Matching and no clutch.
everyone with a 020 should learn this along with starting it in 2nd gear with no clutch pushed...
why.....
when cable breaks or pedal assembly breaks on a mk1...
it will get you home without a tow....
there is right/wrong ways...
do not force it.. it will slide like butter if done right... start practice in 3rd to 4th.. easiest one to do.. around town i tend to never use clutch in 3rd to 4th.. just falls in.. really does..
I agree with you %100. I blew a motor mount and it tilted it just so that 2nd and 4th were the only two usable gears.. drove it for over a week like that.. I've never blown the clutch cable, but im interested in the 2nd gear start without a clutch??
The Rev Matching to me doesnt seem to me to be at all harmful to the transmission.. there isnt any work on any parts, not anymore than shifting with the clutch.. you still have to mesh the gears.. and shifting with the clutch too quickly still messes that up....
REV MATCH FOR THE WIN.
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with engine warm for you diesel people.. probally gas too... start car in 2nd gear when you have nothing infront of you... not that hard. .just something people do not ever try... ive limped a few home... limped a few into the shop.. so on...
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Yep...or if you can muster it in 2nd but I know it will in first...just lean and lean and lean on it with the engine running and usually it will pop into gear with a big jump
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with engine warm for you diesel people.. probally gas too... start car in 2nd gear when you have nothing infront of you... not that hard. .just something people do not ever try... ive limped a few home... limped a few into the shop.. so on...
i start it in first gear, its much easier on the starter.. ive driven quite a few cars home like that. no clutch at all..
whats the reason for starting off in second?
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So you can go faster than 20mph lmao
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think 2nd is easier on starter then 1st..
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think 2nd is easier on starter then 1st..
first is a lower gear, how could second be easier? thats like saying its easier to start in fifth, rather than first..
first is the lowest gear, it takes the least power to make the car move.. idk if i believe that its easier to take off in second..
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I think you two are talking about two separate concepts- trying to crank the starter with the transmission in gear and trying to engage a gear from neutral with the engine already running.
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Or possibility 3, pushing the car to speed, then dropping it in gear, 2nd may be easier to start, as 1st has the leverage to stop the car before the motor starts.
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starting car from dead stop engine off with it in 2nd... jambing it into gear once running cannot be a good thing.. at a dead stop...
your correct abt 1st.. which also is the issue.. has more load on it in 1st then in 2nd.. think of it as kinda slipping the clutch..
next do you "bump start" your car in 1st??? ive always tended to use 2nd for that too..
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I've had the best results bumping in first.. but it depends on the speed you can get the car too.. lol
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I've had the best results bumping in first.. but it depends on the speed you can get the car too.. lol
2nd or 3rd gear for a bump start, unless im rolling super slow, then i will use 1st. and when i do it in reverse, i am very careful, because of the glass reverse gear..
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I'f im ever bump starting its usually a battery issue, and the car has happened to stop on completely flat ground and im the only one around.
It loses a lot of speed from the time you stop pushing till you get in and get situated ! LOL
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I haven't yet had the pleasure of bumpstarting/popstarting my diesel. I thought it would be difficult because of the high compression, is it easy to do?
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works great if you have enough speed or a hill that doesn't let it slow down too much
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I haven't yet had the pleasure of bumpstarting/popstarting my diesel. I thought it would be difficult because of the high compression, is it easy to do?
if your battery has enough juice to burn the glow plugs for a second, then it will fire right up on a small hill with little effort. if your battery is stone dead tho, it might take a little more..
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I haven't yet had the pleasure of bumpstarting/popstarting my diesel. I thought it would be difficult because of the high compression, is it easy to do?
Surprisingly, yes it is.
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if its hot, it jumps to life no problem.
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when your battery is dead, but has enough charge to light the plugs off, they bump start EASY. like, easier than a gasser possibly.
ive been bump starting my TD alot lately.. bad alternator..