VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => Non VW Group Diesel => Topic started by: AdrianD on July 25, 2013, 07:11:37 am
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Hey guys,
I'm Adrian, from Transylvania and I drive a '96 Jeep Cherokee, with a factory installed 2.5 IDI TD engine. Currently running stock boost, rotated fuel pin (it has a 10mm Bosch VE pump), no muffler, oil cooler, boost, EGT and oil temp gauges.
Not my picture but here's the engine bay with newer IP:
(http://www.motorsbros.com/images/Jeep-Cherokee-25-TD-02.jpg)
Gauge setup, missing boos gauge at that point
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/IMG_3822.jpg)
Oil cooler and intercooler:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/IMG_8005r.jpg)
Right now I've got a manual boost controller to install, EGT's are around 1100-1150 on a WOT run 0-70mph, with some haze. I'll have to take and upload some new pics today :)
This seems like a knowledgeable place for an IDI owner looking to get more power out of his diesel.
PS: before I could drive legally I've driven on country roads the old family cars... MK1 GTD (1.5D NA), MK3 (1.9D) and MK4 (ALH), somehow I grew up around VW diesels, even took part in a 1.5D rebuild when I was 7-8 and was passenger in a 1.5D that ran away.
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I had no clue they made the xj or here called Cherokee mostly with a diesel. I wonder how much to get one imported as that should be in my jeep :D
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better yet how did you find us?
more pics/info would be swell...
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Ecu controlled idi interesting!
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The engine in question is a VM Motori diesel, made in Italy. Unfortunately, they were never sold with this engine in the U.S. or Canada, which is where most of the people on the forum happen to live, so most of us don't know much about them.
If you speak French, you might try the French forum, where there are probably more people who live in countries where these were available.
Jeep also offered a Renault turbo diesel in the Cherokee, engine from commercial vans in Europe, in the late '80s, and these were sold in North America. Unfortunately, they're really rare.
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I had no clue they made the xj or here called Cherokee mostly with a diesel. I wonder how much to get one imported as that should be in my jeep :D
They did, sold everywhere except North America. Not the most reliable of engines, because of the independent heads on each cylinder they have a habit of cracking around 150.000 km mark. Heat builds up after you shut off the engine and at one point bam. I cracked 3 and then bought 4 new heads from an aftermarket source, which claims to have improved the design (originally there are 2 glow-plug locations, aftermarket heads have only one). And everyone using it has not had overheating issues. I've also given the ports a good de-burr and very mild porting.
better yet how did you find us?
more pics/info would be swell...
I want a VNT (1756vk) on this thing, I work in software development so building a controller is a piece of pie. Looking for VNT ideas I stumbled upon tdiclub but over there people aren't too much into IDIs, like over here...Here I am :)
More info you say...Bosch VE pump, with LDA (or AFC), with electronic timing control and mechanical throttle, push-rods, gear-driven cam and IP, 115 Hp stock, 300 Nm (sorry, I will convert to lbs ft tomorrow), 28mpg high-way, poorly intercooled, restrictive exhaust.
The bottom-end is interesting, crank bearings sit in big circular aluminum retainers, which sit in a tunnel in the block. So the bottom of the block is actually enclosed and once the aluminum expands it sits tight in the block tunnel.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/4471816.jpg)
Ecu controlled idi interesting!
Only post 97 models are fly-by-wire, I want and don't want one of those :( :)
The engine in question is a VM Motori diesel, made in Italy. Unfortunately, they were never sold with this engine in the U.S. or Canada, which is where most of the people on the forum happen to live, so most of us don't know much about them.
If you speak French, you might try the French forum, where there are probably more people who live in countries where these were available.
Jeep also offered a Renault turbo diesel in the Cherokee, engine from commercial vans in Europe, in the late '80s, and these were sold in North America. Unfortunately, they're really rare.
Correct, it is a VM Motori engine :)
Renault J8S, very cool engine, all aluminum, light, a good friend of mine has a Cherokee with that engine. The engine was installed in a lot of applications, even sedans like the Renault 21.
Anyway, back on topic...biggest reason I'm here is to learn and find answers to some questions like what exactly does the full fuel screw do? Increase injection duration or just quantity? Do I need bigger injectors for my 180-200 crank horses goal? What should I do with the 7-8 psi drop across the intercooler? ;D
It's an IDI, it should be close to VW IDI's in how it responds to mods :)
Please excuse the dirty engine bay :-[
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/IMG_0168.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/IMG_0169_1.jpg)
My attempt to solve intercooler heat soak, works for now, it dropped EGTs by 100F cruising. No difference in full-boogie :(
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/IMG_0170-1.jpg)
I wish my girlfriend was this dirty:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/DAdrianD/2013-03-30_11-44-26_834.jpg)
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:D
thanks for sharing...
libby, and/or 8v of fury will be the pump people to solve those voodoo things a pump does... and yep.. this place is ve pump heven..
there is a new place called www.driiive.com based out of poland.. your side of the world.. it will be facebook of cars by the time its over.. you may be able to find others at one point.. so new right now you would be the 1st with on eposted.. either gas or diesel.. but seems to have alot of euro diesel cars too we lack.. think i was one of the 1st 20 members.. i like odd euro we do not have stuff... then i tell the usa guys.. LOL.. and we been picking here and there.. starting to pick up.. but for now.. i just tell everyone.. be the 1st.. why not.. you got pics.. its free.. and hell if you find jeep euro diesel group.. crap.. you may find more stuff we lack.. :D
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I never realized that those would have a VE pump. It's neat to see the hybrid of American Jeep and european diesel engineering. I had a Cherokee XJ (gas not diesel) for 10 years, I was really into them for a long time, it was in almost new condition when I bought it and I put almost 200,000 miles on it, I drove it across the U.S., drove to the tropic of cancer, all over the Baja California peninsula, offroad in the Rocky Mountains, on the famous Black Bear Road, in the Mojave desert here in California, and it never, not once ever broke down. I sold it to a friend of mine a few years ago because I had too many vehicles and needed to get rid of some and he still drove offroad all the time... He died recently. :-[ I hope his wife keeps the XJ.
What is the offroading like in Romania? And what is with the holes on the bumper? Is that a factory thing or did you make that?
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First set of pics show the aftermarket oil cooler and the vent for the intercooler. They are behind the bumper and the intercooler is behind the front crossmember. They do not get adequate venting so I had to drill holes in the bumper. Good thing I had a drill press, otherwise I wouldn't have drilled all the holes. There is no ducting yet so still room for improvement on the oil cooler/ic venting.
We don't have offroading like in the US. Being a hilly area, our trails are through woods, muddy slopes, muddy trails. I've never seen people rockclimbing here. The Jeep was muddy after going to my grandparent's house, there's only a dirt road there so autumn through spring the Jeep runs mud terrain tires and I've gotten stuck in snow countless times.
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i dont think you could put to much power throw that engine , a wee tweek and she be fine , as you said the heads are the week bit , i have seen loads in the brakers goosed engines mostly , you could do the gov mod , and a bit on the max fuel screw , get rid of the egr, is there a blow off on the inlet side , and turn the boost up 2psi
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Trying to think logically...
1. My heads cracked in the following order: #4 at 145k (on the way home from Germany, we'll just assume this is fatigue, normal behaviour), #1 at 150k (I assume this is because I ran it in Germany with low coolant and the head did not receive adequate cooling), #3 at 175k (after installing @150k an electric water pump which moves water around after I shut off the engine, in hopes to keep the heads from cracking). Most cracks are reported after shutting off the engine.
2. I've never overheated it and constantly climb hills with EGTs ranging from 1000F to 1100F, giving it hell. Still stock radiator, EGT over 1050F the water temperature starts to climb. Newer, bigger radiator should take care of it.
3. Electric water pump is still running fine
4. Extra oil cooler
5. Aftermarket heads are supposed to have improved cooling channels, everybody who installed them reported no overheating on the freeway.
If I add fuel and boost ad EGTs stay at the same level as now, aren't cylinder temperatures more or less at the same level?
EGR has been out for a few years.
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If you can get redline products over there buy a bottle of Water Wetter. Sounds stupid but the stuff will lower coolant and cylinder head temps a TON. I off road a ford bronco *used to too much family stuff now* and I saw 30*F drop in coolant temps at the cylinder head. It pulls the heat out better than coolant & water and it mixes with them both. Royal Purple has a product like it called Purple Ice. There maybe lots of others but that should help you a ton. I run it in all my stuff that sees some pedal :D
I am not a jeep guy even though I have owned 4 of them. I had 2 XJ's, a Liberty, and a Wrangler. We had the XJ's with a 4.0l gas engine and it was the best engine that Jeep made for them in the states. Our 93 had 250,000 on it when we sold it and our 2001 had around 190,00 when we sold it. They were IMHO the best jeeps that Jeep made.
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Caterpillar ELC has been my choice for when I need to change coolant. If it survives in heavy machinery, it should be ok for the Jeep. And owning/working on a backhoe has let me see the kind of conditions heavy machinery work in.
I have to agree with your reliability comment, knock on wood, so far it's been smooth sailing, except for the ***ing heads, which I knew about before buying.
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Back to business,
Intercooler ideas.
The stock intercooler is a folded, double pass design:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/JEEP-CHEROKEE-2-5-TD-LTD-1997-INTERCOOLER-/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/NFQAAOxyn9BRcm4n/$(KGrHqZHJFUFEMGOTR,QBRcm4nPJU!~~60_12.JPG)
I have seen 2 reports of pressure before and after the intercooler. The pressure loss at full boost is 10(!!!) psi.
I don't have room for an intercooler in front of the radiator, what are my options to get the pressure loss down? Find a thick core, as big as this, or bigger but single pass and run longer IC piping? There is room for a 2" pipe to cross over from one side to the other and room for a slightly wider core than this. I can get a custom sized intercooler :)
IIRC A4 Golfs run thick cores, are they any good? FD Rx7's also have very thick core, well vented and reports are that they work good.
Another option is running an air-water intercooler, too much custom work and extra parts: water tank, core, intake manifold modification, water radiator. The stock IC is shrouded and the mechanical fan pulls air at low speed, which means it can also work ok at low speeds/high revs off-road.
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www.frozenboost.com
Get an AWIC from them, less than 1% of pressure drop across the core..!!!!
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Being mounted in the bumper area I would just run one like I run in my jetta. 28x5.5x2.5 straight through.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIVERSAL-ALUMINUM-TURBO-27X5-5X2-5-BAR-PLATE-FMIC-FRONT-MOUNT-INTERCOOLER-KIT-/350849309648?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b03f9bd0&vxp=mtr
OR
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-INTERCOOLER-FMIC-29x8x3-5-1-SIDE-Talon-Eclipse-/330368017882?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ceb77e5da&vxp=mtr
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Or yet again
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=208&osCsid=018bda967ce8973bf4930bda01bc3ede
as long as you have good air to this it should cool for you.
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8v-of-fury, how well does the AWIC work? Is yours from frozenboost as well?
I could fit this core: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=216&osCsid=1920fdf0e83047999f100b369f2d7978 or even have it modified and attached to the manifold.
The other option, with a 27x 5.5 x 2.5 IC would probably work in the stock location, with some cuts done to the front crossmember. Or I could get a custom core built up, like I did with the oil cooler and like I'm going to do with the water radiator.
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I actually do not have the AWIC as of yet.. But I have heard nothing bad from anyone using their stuff, and I have promoted it to at least 50 people lol. I would like you to read their site a bit, it is absolutely the better route. You have a bigger vehicle and a smaller displacement engine.. why not cool it as best you can?
http://www.frozenboost.com/stpg.php?page_id=water_to_air
I am planning on ordering a FrozenBoost unit soon though.
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I know that it's found on many performance vehicles, $150 for the intercooler is not much.
These guys have a lot of data on A/W setups:
http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm
Even going logically, flow through such a core is extremely good. And it would be a big benefit to integrate it in the intake manifold by removing the necking down to 2.5" at the output. For me it would have to be removable from the manifold.
I hate you for bringing up A/W just when I almost made my mind up to go A/A :P
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The China Xtreme are surprisingly good for how cheap they are. Those poor kids sure can lay a nice bead of weld.
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I've been very happy with the AWIC in Jezebel. It's pretty much the only part that will be coming over to my new TDI... :D
I've never had any issues with heat soak (I do have a pretty massive AWIC radiator though). Over time the silicon couplers on the "hot" side of the IC have changed color while the ones on the "cold" side look exactly the same as they did when new. I think the color change comes from them being heated up regularly. My K24 at full boost would be putting out air at over 100C.
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Bumping my old topic ;D
Sadly with a problem: lately it has been starting like complete crap when warn, somethings even running un-even and shaking. I always had to crank a bit more when warm but in the last couple of months it has deteriorated a lot.
What do you guys think it can be? Injection pump head worn out?
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Well, I'm back :)
Uneven start - must have been something with the injector return lines. I took out all the injectors to have them checked, found zero problems but upon reinstallation the bad start was fixed.
New problems after a 1200 mile trip:
Turbo went south (blue smoke out the exhaust, crunching noises from the turbo) and before the turbo went it ran lumpy at idle and was shaky until 1500 rpm. Power was good until the turbo failed.
The lumpy idle and shakiness will have to wait until I change the turbo.
Why did the turbo fail? Old turbo? Overheated oil?
After 600 miles, when I got to the destination I could notice a turbo whistle above 10 psi.
On the entire trip back home I had to make one mountain pass (car fully loaded) but I kept it at 2000rpm in 4th, EGT at 900F, oil temperature slowly went up to 200F after the cooler. After this ordeal, traffic jam. I kept a high idle (1200rpm) to have good flow through everything and never shut off the engine. After about another 200 miles the lumpy idle started but I did not notice any power problems. This lumpy idle got worse, with blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, until I started hearing strange sounds from the turbo and then no boost and no power. I know, I should have stopped when the problems started but it started to smoke at idle on this road, with no way of towing it back home from there:
(http://romaniatraveldestinations.com/assets/Transalpina-4-610x406.jpg)
http://romaniatraveldestinations.com/the-transalpina-road-in-romania/
Now another problem arises. I've been wanting to do a VNT (1756vk) but I've also thought about a newer fixed geometry turbo (Holset or a Garrett). The stock turbo is an IHI RHB5, after I remove it I will post compressor/turbine measurements, maybe you guys can help me pick a replacement :)
Do I VNT it or not? Based on the calculators on Garrett's website, the GT2056s (fixed geometry) is a good choice for my car as far as the compressor side goes. It's been used on commercial 2.8 liter and 3.0 liter engines.
The GTB1756vk has the same size compressor wheel, larger turbine inducer and same size exducer and it's been used on the 2.8 CRD Jeeps. So I would assume it's not going to choke my 2.5
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Any update on your Jeep?