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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: madisle on April 21, 2008, 02:41:56 pm
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Is this intercooler from Nissan 200sx s13 good for AAZ or do I need a bigger one?
http://www.album.ee/node/14650388/50100525#browse
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I dont see any dims?
looks like it would be better than nothing.
That one needs a REALLY good cleaning.
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I am using a very similar one from a JDM S13 Silvia SR20DET and it works great for me. Keep in mind that that IC was built to cool ~200hp worth of airflow....a lot more than most ppl will be flowing through a vw diesel.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee94/ktzed/IMG_1241.jpg)
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Keep in mind that that IC was built to cool ~200hp worth of airflow....a lot more than most ppl will be flowing through a vw diesel.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That thing is WAY to small to be doing anything around 200hp..
It would get heat soaked in a matter of minutes anywhere close to that.
Yes it will work and yes it's better than nothing but come on.
That thing was designed for a mild driver accelerating in traffic.
Built to cool 200hp.. hahahahahahaha!!!!!
No don't get me wrong KTZed I'm not bashing you directly but maybe where you got your info should be examined a little closer..??
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Not to hijack to bad :roll: but when to you notice an intercooler? Like what RPM or do they give a noticable power increase across the RPM range? I am thinking of getting one but I hate having all the piping and crap for a few ponies.
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Mine was more noticeable in the mid to upper RPM's.
Figure at lower RPM your not making 15+psi so the air isn't as hot as when it's compressed more which is what the IC is for.
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Keep in mind that that IC was built to cool ~200hp worth of airflow....a lot more than most ppl will be flowing through a vw diesel.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That thing is WAY to small to be doing anything around 200hp..
It would get heat soaked in a matter of minutes anywhere close to that.
Ok...maybe you'd like to take that argument up with Nissan's engineers? :roll:
An S13 SR20DET makes 200hp stock. Even if the IC is subpar for that stock application, my engine makes...maybe 100hp...I think its up to the task. FWIW installing the IC with NO other changes dropped the EGT's 200degF.
PS. The entire intercooler install cost me $75 :lol:
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as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing :wink: and you won't really feel an intercooler unless your car was previously smoking. if it wasn't smoking before, you can add some more fuel for that extra 5-10 hp (or more depending on how crazy your setup is)
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as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing :wink:
This doesn't appear to be true. Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus. Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better. CFM is probably best.
Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?
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as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing :wink:
This doesn't appear to be true. Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus. Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better. CFM is probably best.
Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?
well if i read that thread correctly, 1~4psi@35psi is a bad thing? who actually runs their turbo at 35 psi daily? and would you not expect that kind of pressure drop relative to the amount of heat that you remove? :lol: looking at: 0.2~0.5psi@15psi - it seems to be a good intercooler to me. granted if the intercooler manged to drop 1~4psi@15psi then yes, it would be near useless, but if the temperature drop is high, it will reduce egt's with less black smoke. so i'll stand by my statement that it is still better than not having an intercooler :wink:
i think zukgod's problem might have been with a boost leak with the intercooler plumbing, or possibly with the way it was setup. running at those pressures anything is possible. plus the k24 is only efficient to around 20-22 psi, and the T3 possibly a little more, but not much. after that the exhaust backpressure exceeds the intake pressure.
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If I'm hoping to get 100-110 HP from AAZ then this s13 intercooler would be up to it?
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as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing :wink:
This doesn't appear to be true. Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus. Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better. CFM is probably best.
Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?
Couple things to remember. HP is just a function of torque and rpm.
Torque is made by applying a force (cyl pressure on the piston*piston area) to a lever (half the stroke of the crank, depending on rod angle etc.). The dimensions of the engine are fixed obviously so that just leaves cyl pressure. This can be changed by cramming in more air ("boost" if you will) and the required amount of fuel.
RPM's are RPM's. The faster you spin the engine the more air you put in. Simple.
So whats my point? HP Is directly tied to airflow. Mass airflow to be exact, not CFM.
Ok so back on track...
An intercooler should be measured in 2 ways: Pressure drop and heat rejection.
Pressure drop is a function of CFM (rpm & displacement) and heat rejection is a function of Mass airflow (rpm, displacement density ie "boost", and temperature difference).
Lets do a little maths on my scenario. Assume 100%ve.
1.6TD at 20psi at 5000rpm
1.6L = 97in^3 = 0.056ft^3
0.056/2 = 0.028 (intake stroke comes once every 2 revs)
0.028*5000rpm = 140CFM
Air density = ~0.075lb/ft^3 at 21degC
0.075*140 = 10.5lb/min
Pressure ratio at 20psi = (20+14.7)/14.7 = 2.36
10.5*2.36 = 24.78Lb/min
SR20DET at 7psi at 6500rpm
2L = 121in^3 = 0.070ft^3
0.07/2 = 0.035
0.035*6500 = 227.5CFM
0.075*227.5 = 17.06lb/min
PR @ 7psi = (7+14.7)/14.7 = 1.476
17.06*1.476 = 25.18lb/min
As you can see, the 1.6TD moves far less air (CFM) than the SR20 but they move a similar mass of air given the difference in PR (This also demonstrates how both motors should make similar torque figures dispite the difference in HP). The temp of the air will be much higher with the 1.6TD due to the PR so I will concede that it is likely that I am putting more heat into my IC than in the stock application, but the pressure drop should be less. That being said, this IC is better than a lot of small IC's from a heat rejection standpoint as it has large cast aluminum endtanks and inlet/outlet to transfer heat to....better than plastic no doubt.
Phew! [/rant]
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as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing :wink:
This doesn't appear to be true. Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus. Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better. CFM is probably best.
Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?
well if i read that thread correctly, 1~4psi@35psi is a bad thing? who actually runs their turbo at 35 psi daily? and would you not expect that kind of pressure drop relative to the amount of heat that you remove? :lol: looking at: 0.2~0.5psi@15psi - it seems to be a good intercooler to me. granted if the intercooler manged to drop 1~4psi@15psi then yes, it would be near useless, but if the temperature drop is high, it will reduce egt's with less black smoke. so i'll stand by my statement that it is still better than not having an intercooler :wink:
i think zukgod's problem might have been with a boost leak with the intercooler plumbing, or possibly with the way it was setup. running at those pressures anything is possible. plus the k24 is only efficient to around 20-22 psi, and the T3 possibly a little more, but not much. after that the exhaust backpressure exceeds the intake pressure.
RE this intercooler:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250219901631&rd=1
Yes, it is a OK intercooer for 15 PSI.
But its a bad intercooler for 25 PSI. His EGT went up, smoke went up, and I suspect his power went down. At 25 PSI this intercooler is worse than no intercooler. :wink:
I don't know if you can safely get 100 HP out of a 1.6td at 15 PSI.
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as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing :wink:
i think zukgod's problem might have been with a boost leak with the intercooler plumbing, or possibly with the way it was setup. running at those pressures anything is possible. plus the k24 is only efficient to around 20-22 psi, and the T3 possibly a little more, but not much. after that the exhaust backpressure exceeds the intake pressure.
RE this intercooler:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250219901631&rd=1
Yes, it is a OK intercooler for 15 PSI.
But its a bad intercooler for 25 PSI. His EGT went up, smoke went up, and I suspect his power went down. At 25 PSI this intercooler is worse than no intercooler. :wink:
I don't know if you can safely get 100 HP out of a 1.6td at 15 PSI.
No leaks in my system at all, double checked everything. I do think I have to many 90 deg bends though and I will be taking as many of those out as I can here shortly. I'll come out of the turbo with a 45 and have it angled toward the pass headlight rather than a 90 out of the turbo then snaked around everything to get where it needs to go.
saurkraut,
you are correct, my power was different after the IC install but only at the mid range area (more), after that it kinda dropped off. Before the IC if I really pushed it in third I could touch 40psi thus the IC quest. I know the K24 is way past it's range there so my attempt was to help drop the intake temps with the IC. Right now my clutch slips so damn bad I cant even get on the freeway fast so till that's taken care of I cant do any further testing.
I found a much larger IC last night. 31" x 12" x 3" with 3" inlet/outlets.
I figure it flows more than double the current one. I'll be getting that installed next week sometime and if all goes as planned I'll get a new clutch this weekend. At that time I'll be able to report back the improvement if any.
No I don't run it @ 35+ psi all day but when I do I want and expect it to function as intended so I'll keep changing stuff till I get it where it needs to be, with all your guidance that is :wink:
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As you can see, the 1.6TD moves far less air (CFM) than the SR20 but they move a similar mass of air given the difference in PR (This also demonstrates how both motors should make similar torque figures dispite the difference in HP). The temp of the air will be much higher with the 1.6TD due to the PR so I will concede that it is likely that I am putting more heat into my IC than in the stock application, but the pressure drop should be less. That being said, this IC is better than a lot of small IC's from a heat rejection standpoint as it has large cast aluminum endtanks and inlet/outlet to transfer heat to....better than plastic no doubt.
Phew! [/rant]
Before I start I want to make sure you know I'm not bashing you or your intelligence here. One of the reasons I like this board is we can all talk about things without ruffeling feathers. And keep in mind none of my thoughts are connected :lol:
That's good info there I will still stand by my earlier comment. That gas engine you are commenting on does not create the amount of heat our 1.6 TD's (Turbos) do and you know as to your comment.. Air flow pr engine aside the turbo the Nissan used was more efficient at the same PSI? if that's the case then ya for the Nissan it's a good IC for the but not for the VW TD, yes it's better than nothing and I believe I mentioned it was better than nothing in my earlier post.
My comments are based on several situations personally experianced.
The size of the IC is directly related to psi performance. The smaller they are the less they will perform as RPM/psi goes up, you loose CFM and heat exchange capabilities, at some point you will reach heat soak and at that point all your doing is restricting your airflow and stuffing in warm air.
Thus your comment on the HP is directly tied to airflow, Mass to be exact. you are correct and this is my point as the air is cooled in the IC the pressure is greater on the cold side than the hot side thus restriction.. Colder air has more density than warm air..
So after reading all that crap I think we agree here. Anything is better than nothing. Currently I have that 28x5.5x2.5 with 2" inlet/outlets and I'mm changing to a 31x12x3 with 3" inlet/outlets just for the capisity.
I have way to much fuel fo the turbo already so I need to do what I can to cool the air :)
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Geez
If you say this:
“The smaller they are the less they will perform as RPM/psi goes up, you loose CFM and heat exchange capabilities, at some point you will reach heat soak and at that point all your doing is restricting your airflow and stuffing in warm air.”
How can you follow it with this"
“Anything is better than nothing.”
I would still contend that a crappy intercooler is worse than no intercooler. Especially at higer boost.
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Come on!
Just like it says, ANYTHING is better than nothing. There will be gains until it gets heat soaked.
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zukgod1
Dont worry im not offended or anything and I am equally appreciative of the people on this board and the civility with which discussions such as this are conducted. By the sounds of it you have far more real life experience with VW TD's than I so I can only theorize and state my own experiences.
Couple comments/questions...
That gas engine you are commenting on does not create the amount of heat our 1.6 TD's (Turbos) do and you know as to your comment.. Air flow pr engine aside the turbo the Nissan used was more efficient at the same PSI?
The turbo on the gas engine does in my example doesn't heat the air up as much because its only compressing the air to 7psi. As for the efficiencies of the 2 turbos themselves at different PR's/flowrates...who knows. We'd need the compressor maps etc. to figure that out. FWIW the turbos are similar in size the Nissan using a T28(I think) and the VW a very small T3.
The size of the IC is directly related to psi performance. The smaller they are the less they will perform as RPM/psi goes up, you loose CFM and heat exchange capabilities, at some point you will reach heat soak and at that point all your doing is restricting your airflow and stuffing in warm air.
I think this is more an application issue than anything. Your talking about 35-40psi :shock: In that application, you are putting a LOT of heat into the air, especially if the turbo is out of its efficiency range. If you are pushing air that hot through a small IC at high CFM and are on boost for long periods of time then yes I would definately be concerned about both heat soak and pressure drop.
My application is a daily commuter where even if I am making full boost ("only" 20psi) its for short stints with plenty of time for the IC to cool down between. And as I showed above, the stock application flowed more CFM through the IC than my engine ever will so im not concerned about pressure drop. I am also concerned about response and my goal was to have a low volume system with short pipes and a small IC to keep lag to a minimum...especially with the "big" T3. I did still notice a marked increase in lag when I installed this IC (with stock fueling...its much better now 8) ).
As for the question of a bad IC vs. no IC...
Any IC is only detrimental if it is so restrictive that the pressure drop causes the turbo to work hard enough to the point of adding more heat than the IC can get rid of. For ex. if you want 30psi manifold pressure with no IC, the turbo only has to make 30psi. With a small IC say the turbo actually has to make 35psi to get 30psi at the manifold. If the IC cant get rid of that extra 5psi worth of heat and then some, theres no point in having it there. As for heat soak, almost any size IC can get heat soaked if you pump enough heat into it. It comes down to application again....think about what percentage of your driving time you actually spend at 20+psi of boost....unless you are racing or drive a semi it probably not very high.
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I agree totally.
8)
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Ok, if you simply have to have an intercooler, and you don’t want to spend the money to get one that’s big enough to handle full boost, I guess it’s OK if you just cruise around.
If you don’t go there, why plan for it.
But, are you really getting a benefit from lowering an 800° F egt to 700° F? Is there a gain in efficiency from lowering a low egt? Is an intercooler yielding any real benefit?
On the other hand,I would suggest that some poeple do use full boost regularly (not naming names Mr. zukgod1 :wink: ), and are loosing performance when they do from having an intercooler that is too small. They'd be better off with no intercooler.
I go there all the time. I’m no stranger to high boost. Every corner is the Carrousel at LeMans. Every stop sign is a drag race. And If I saw higher EGT, and lower boost that I could trace to an intercooler that was too small. I take the blessed thing off, and run it over with my car.
As a matter of fact, I have a Ford Probe intercooler that is now for sale. Actually, I haven't advertised it yet, so I may run it over with my car. I was going to put it on my 1.5TD, but its going to get something else that can handle 20+ psi of boost and do the job right.
I guess it’s a matter of perspective.
8)