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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 1985JettaTD on May 17, 2004, 08:05:41 pm
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Hey all! I have been looking for a TD Bored for a long time and just came accros this one and it is great!
Anyway I have a 1985 Jetta with the 1.6L Turbo diesel. The lack of power in it is really bugging me. I wanted to know what the best mod or mods would be to get the most power for your money. I dont really know much about the car and dont know what anything does so if someone could help me along it would be great. I would like to get about 150hp out of the car and have about $3000cad. to spend. What is the nest way to do that????
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First, you have the proper approach; do it right the first time and get good parts. You will be far happier in the long run. You have to pay to play.
Get a proper FMIC (front mount intercooler) like a PWR, greddy etc. As far as the size of it, fit just about the largest you can, as the added thermal mass will allow the engine to make power longer, and the air, more isothermal. Cost will be about 4-500USD. You will also need to fab up some charge pipes. This is not hard at all, and will generally cost you under 100 USD including couplers and hose clamps.
Next, get a larger exhaust (2.5-3+ ") with resonators only. ~500USD.
You will then want a boost controller to take advantage of the better mass flow capability of the engine. With the turbo you have, I believe you can run about 20psi, and perhaps 25psi as long as your head gasket is in good order. Cost will be anywhere from 5-50 bux for mechanical or a few hundred for electronic.
At the same time, you will want to tweak your injection pump. Do a search on how to perform this action... if we have the information on this website yet.
There is more as well that you can do, and I am sure the other members will have info to give.
If you want more power, step up to a larger turbo. You have myriad options concerning what turbos to use.
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some good advice there. where can you find a downpipe larger than about 2.125"? thats the diameter of a 1.9TD downpipe and even at that it will need some welding to make it work...
i've never seen anything larger than that other than one-off fab jobs.
:?:
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For the DownPipe Custom, just go to the local parts store and ask for mandrel U or J bends in what ever size you want, then cut them and weld them, if you can weld then you can still cut them a hack saw takes no time at all, and then take it to a place to be welded shouldn't be anymore then $20 to have it done as it is a quick easy weld. If they are going to charge you more go some where else.
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Well since we don't have one on this board yet I supose I will answer this one so people have something to search for. That and I just wrote out the novel for another board so ignore the refrences to the 4x4's and other engines
:roll:
What this didn't cover as I had already covered it during this persons build up are the upfront costs. **These things must be in place b4 any thing you start to mod.
1. ***Exhaust from turbo back at lest 2.25" mandrel bent 2.5" is ideal, 3" is doable but takes alot more fabing.
2. Gauges. egt gauge, boost gauge, are the minimum, if you are going to do the govener mod then add a tach to that.
3. Intercooler, a poor intercooler is worse then none at all so choose wisely ( I am not the authority on intercoolers so someone else will have to jump in here.
4.**optional but highly recomended**1.9L metal HG, and arp, or raceware or, jan b's cheap head bolts or studs.
****WRITE DOWN EVERY ADJUSTMENT YOU MAKE, SO THAT IT IS EASY TO RETURN TO STOCK SETTINGS FOR EMISSIONS OR WHATEVER****
Ok lets start with the max fuel screw as even with out extra boost these motors can still definatly use extra fuel, so for this mod just break off the coller (either remove completly form pump and then remove or find the seam and pry it off with a well pointed flat blade screw driver. Then start turning it in until ether you chicken out, or your idle goes above 1200 or so with the idle screw turned right out (with the exhuast and intercooler setup you have if you run enough boost to burn this fuel (ie around 15-20psi) you will run lower egt # then a stock vwtd.
From here lets move to the the top of the pump under which is located the starwheel the diaphram and the anroid pin.
On the very top is a cap with a 13mm lock nut around a torx screw (i think its a T-25) this is referd to as the smoke screw as it adjusts low rpm / load fueling by turing it clock wise you increse the fuel and normally the smoke and visa versa, a good place to start is about two turns in.
Now lets remove the four screws holding the cap down pull off the cap and you will see a large rubber diaphram **(there should be a puch mark on the metal center take note of the direction it is pointed), with some wiggling and sometimes the added help of a flat balde screwdriver prying on the metal center this should come out with a spring and a nylon washer, at the bottom is the ecentric cone that the anroid pin rides on, if you look around the cone you will see exactly where the pin rides (ware mark) now take the nylon washer and compare the its thickness to the the amont of pin travel to the top of the cone, remove that much from the washer so the pin now can travel to a hair shy of the top of the cone. Incase you havn't realized the amount that pin travels is the amount of fuel avalible under boost so now when we replace the cone and the diaphram we will replace it so that the pin is now riding on the steepest section, BUT before we replace it lets look down into the hole where the starwheel resides. The star wheel adjustment sets the spring tension on the fuel load delivery rate diaphragm. If your star wheel (under the AFC spring) is set too high, the delivery rate pin won't move downward as it should with increasing boost levels. Turning the star wheel up (counterclockwise) increases the spring pressure, and slows the delivery rate. I'd suggest turning the star wheel down (clockwise) in 1/4 turn increments until you smoke, then back off (counterclockwise) till smoke is gone to your satisfaction, or smoke on under power, a black haze, not a black soot cloud. The retaining lock spring doesn't have to be removed, the star wheel will rotate with a small screwdriver gently placed and pried between the wheel and it. Note the location of the wheel, mark it, and count any turns for reference. Remember: Star wheel down=less spring resistance=increased fuel delivery rate.
Ok so far all of the above mods have been free, just basic tuning built into the motor. These next mods may or may not be free depending on your skill and the tools you have.
First We Now need more Air so its time for a manul boost contoroler this can be anything form a fish tank bleeder valve, to a full on greddy electronic boost mangement system. personally I like the grainger valve its cheap, works well and is reliable, here is a link to all sorts of boost contorllers Boost Controlers (http://www.fwdmopar.com/sites/dennis/boostcontrolbible.html) once again this could be free or it could cost $600.00 depends on what you have and what you want.
Next is injection pump timing, ***IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THE LAST TIME THE TIMMING BLET WAS CHANGED DO IT NOW WHILE YOU ARE DOING TIHS** With that being said you don't have to actually remove the timming belt to do this, but you do need the proper dial gauges, If you don't have them take it to sombody that does, get it set for 1.00mm - 1.05mm factory is .95mm incse anybody cares. once again if you have the tools this could be free if you don't it probably will cost you something.
Finally this last mod is not all that hard but, is high on the pucker factor which is why most people let a shop do it (preferabley at the same time as the mod listed above) this is the govener mod. The govener on this motor start kicking in about 2800 rpm with a limit to about 5450 rpm, now this mod will change your motor from night to day. Imagine if you will your driving along in a normal family car and as you press on the gas you get more fuel so the more load the engine sees and the faster you rev it the more fuel it gets, obviously to a point. no imagine that you are driving that same car and some one has put a govener on it that starts taking away fuel at 2800rpm and by the time you reach 4000rpm even with your foot flat on the floor you it is cutting out the fuel by 80%, now I know you wouldn't except it in a gas motor so why would you in a diesel. The reason I use this analogy is when most people hear rpm mod they think of getting more rpm's and that is partly true you now can take your motor to what ever rpm you think it will hold, however it start to run out of top end breathing at about 5500rpm, though people have had to 6000rpm. The point is that there is a lot of extra power and dirveability with this mod.
Now for the actuall mod, on the cover of the pump (below the boost enrichment device we previously discussed) are four allen screws and a spring assembley it is imparitve that the spring assembly go back to gether exacly the same and on the exact same postion on its shaft so take pictures mark it draw it, what ever you hav eto do to make sure it goes back together the same. (Normally If I am working on a pump Ido this all at the same time I.e. I will pull out all of the above listed pieces and have everything layed out and marked) Now once you are in there you will see a spring assembly that has three parts a very soft idle spring **leave this one as is** an intermidiate spring and a long main sping. These springs are set so that once the idle spring has been compressed it starts to work on the intermidate spring and once that has been taken car of it starts on the main spring, now this main spring is long enough that you never actually get to the end of it in the real world. Here is the options for this mod, you can:
1. replace the intermidate and main sping with a solid piced of tube or strong wire ect... somthing that doesnt compress (I have even heard of fuel line :shock: )
2. you can place shims (read washers or what have you) in the intermidate spring placing it in coilbind and preloading the main spring by about a 1/4"
3. or you can just replace the intermidate spring with something solid, and preload the main agin by about 1/4"
then re-assemble and double check the spring asembly on the outside cover.
Now go and dirve your new beast you will quite litteraly smoke any stock gti 16v, or 8v, and will probably even keep pace with a well moded gti
And if this still isnt enough let me know and we will talk injectors, propane, nitrous, bigger turbo's, or twin sequntials, head swaps, cams and pump mods to take care of the fueling needs :grinpimp: but all of those cost money.
The most you should spend to get all of the above done is about $350 cdn, (THIS IS NOT INCLUDING THE ** UPFRONT COSTS** SEE ABOVE) that is including replacing the timing belt and buying a manual boost controller (ebay is a great source lots of ricers to cater too :flipoff2: anyone will work don't worry if it says for a specific brand its just controlling air flow)
And that about wraps up stage one. (or mabey novel #1 :roll: )
Some one correct me If I am wrong, but I belive that at this point you are in the 120HP neighbour hood and depending on how much you can fab and the kind of deals you got along the way it will have cost you anyware from about $200.00 - $2500.00
One more thing to add if your not going to do the gov. mod yourself send your pump to Giles and have him work his magic all at the same time it will save you in the long run of doing bits and picese here and there, that and your pump will be ready for more then any stage that any of us have taken this motor to YET :twisted:
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As for the 150Hp mark your shooting for get through all of that and then we will start looking at stage 2. :wink:
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///""""Ok lets start with the max fuel screw as even with out extra boost these motors can still definatly use extra fuel, so for this mod just break off the coller (either remove completly form pump and then remove or find the seam and pry it off with a well pointed flat blade screw driver. Then start turning it in until ether you chicken out, or your idle goes above 1200 or so with the idle screw turned right out (with the exhuast and intercooler setup you have if you run enough boost to burn this fuel (ie around 15-20psi) you will run lower egt # then a stock vwtd.
From here lets move to the the top of the pump under which is located the starwheel the diaphram and the anroid pin.
On the very top is a cap with a 13mm lock nut around a torx screw (i think its a T-25) this is referd to as the smoke screw as it adjusts low rpm / load fueling by turing it clock wise you increse the fuel and normally the smoke and visa versa, a good place to start is about two turns in. """\\\
Can I assume that some of this will apply to N/A motors also...I know the power increase will not be as large but.........
Keith
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Your asumtion is correct :wink:
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Great DIY article, DVST8R! 8)
The only improvement I can think of would be to add pics. I have a good digital camera, but you're a long ways away... :(
How do you come by the estimate of 120 hp? Is that from comparing side-by-side performance with other cars? Pro-Tech? Dyno? In any case, the improvements are real, so the exact number probably doesn't really matter. I did get a boost improvement on my Quantum when I disconnected the boost line to the wastegate, so I imagine that if I add fuel I'll see yet more boost and power. :D
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i agree.... this is an awesome post! it would be nice to have some pics, as I'm trying to tweak my pump on my 1.6td and am having a hard time deciphering which one is the max fuel screw etc...
please.....please.... please post some pics or post a pic of the mechanical injection turbo pump, and what screws to play around with.
oh.... what about the pressure relief valve on the intake manifold? i noticed there is a flat head screw in the middle of it. How much adjustment in clockwise/counter-clockwise is allowed?
anyone?
david
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I found the pics! :D
On the old forum someone posted a link to a post on a third forum ( :roll: ) where pics of this process are posted.
You can read the page in English here (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vwquebec.ca%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D4344&lp=fr_en&tt=url).
And in French here (http://www.vwquebec.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4344).
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You will then want a boost controller to take advantage of the better mass flow capability of the engine. With the turbo you have, I believe you can run about 20psi, and perhaps 25psi as long as your head gasket is in good order. Cost will be anywhere from 5-50 bux for mechanical or a few hundred for electronic.
Turbo DS....i just replaced my head gasket 10000 kms ago. how much boost do you think is ok to run. I have mine at 13psi right now but am scared to go more cuz i blew a head gasket a while ago. I dont have an intercooler on it yet so how much do you think is safe for intercooled and non intercooled.
thanks for the help
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Well I wish I could add some pics, but not only do I not own a digital camera, but I don't even own a normal camera, so we are out of luck.
As far as the numbers it is a guestimate at best, but I have drag raced cars that dynoed in that area and was very competitive, as well as comparing other g-tech plots and the fact that every time you you add 14.7lbs of boost you double the theoretical output of the motor all of this has led me to thta approx # now I may be a ways off but, I'm sure some one on here would be able to correct me to a closer # :wink:
dieselpower the max efficincy on the garret turbo is about 22psi anything above that and you risk damaging it, though I think that dr.d ran one at 27psi for several months as a test and it was fine, however it doesn't make usable power past 22psi, as for the kkk I belive it was 18psi, but I have never had one so I am not certain.
As for how much boost is safe to run with and without an intercooler I think that the more important question is your exhuast if it is 2.25" mandrel bent form turbo back or bigger, your egt's will be fine for the full 22psi, however there isn't anypoint in running 22psi, as with the stock 1.6td pump tweaked to its STOCK max, you only have enough fuel for about 18psi, more important then the psi you are safe to run is that you are running enough psi to burn the extra fuel, running wiht black smoke pouring out behind you is excess fuel and is high egt's however on the other side of things running 22psi and stock fuel is just extra parestic drag. Some things to think about.
For anyone who has pictures and would like to supliment this thread so there is less of the how to make power questions in the future by all means either add them and describe how they fit or email me them and I will add them or perhaps red rotors would "mod" them into place if I am unavalible to do so. Perhaps we should start a vwtd FAQ thread that is "stickyed" to the top of the idi forum???
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thank all of u for all the help! but . . . the mods that your talking about are for the 1.6l TD, right? reading the stuff about the fuel pump and looking at the pics makes me feel that these are not something for the 1.6 because the fuel pump in the pic does not look anything like mine and the things that you have described does not sound like what i have seen under my hood. if anyone has pics please post them, it would be a big help!!!!!!!!!!!
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pics look like a 1.6TD to me... they look the same as my engine which is from a 1990 jetta 1.6 turbo diesel if that helps.
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Well as I stated previously no camera so unfortunatly no pics. The motor that vw racer has in his link is a 1.9TD but is very close to the same it just has another sensor? attachment on the top of the pump, but my mod list will work for either.
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ok, thank you for all the help, you really know what ur talking about!! one more question thought: on the first post you said that a bad intercooler job would mess everything up. what i want to know is what a bad intercooler would mean. is it the intercooler itself or in install job or both? and what can be done to stop that from happening? thank you sooooo much!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sorry let me clarify, a crappy intercooler is what I was refering too. The charge pipeping if exsesive in size or length can hurt spool up time (ask me how I know :roll: but thats about it, however a bad intercooler is worse then none at all. A poor intercooler is one with a large pressure drop, poor effciancy (sp??), and poor flow. If the intercooler your concidering has anyone of those traits move on.
As for sounding like I know what I am talking about a big thanks to all of the contributers to our former forum that is where I learned 90% of what I know about vwtd's and probably 80% of what I know about diesels in general. :D
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hi im quite new here, anyway this is an awesome post! far more detailed thank that link.
im just wondering is it possible to put a TDI head on the TD engines?? Iv read somewhere that they are more efficient in terms of temperature of combustion? if it is possible (i maybe sounding dumb without relising), is there any power gains from such a conversion?? Iv just been thinking why the TDi's are 90bhp whereas my TD is 75bhp (93 jetta).
also, how much do the injectors of the TDi compare to the TD. Im looking at injector upgrades as mine are packing in!
cheers for any info! :D
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The charge pipeping if exsesive in size or length can hurt spool up time (ask me how I know :roll: )
OK: How do you know? :o Let's hear it, thanks.
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hi im quite new here, anyway this is an awesome post! far more detailed thank that link.
im just wondering is it possible to put a TDI head on the TD engines?? Iv read somewhere that they are more efficient in terms of temperature of combustion? if it is possible (i maybe sounding dumb without relising), is there any power gains from such a conversion?? Iv just been thinking why the TDi's are 90bhp whereas my TD is 75bhp (93 jetta).
also, how much do the injectors of the TDi compare to the TD. Im looking at injector upgrades as mine are packing in!
cheers for any info! :D
I am going to say "no". The 1.9IDI uses a pre-combustion chamber, a small "bulb" cast in the head, to inject the fuel and start combustion in - along with this it has flat pistons that come right up to the head. The DI has a combustion chamber cast into the top of the piston, and "directly" injects the fuel into that.
There are DI's with the IDI pumps(EDIT - TDI engines that enthusiasts have fitted with IDI pumps) - the difference being that the IDI pumps are full mechanical (or nearly so) while the TDI is controlled by the computer (other diffences as well, but that's the basics).
So no, can't put a DI head on an IDI motor/block, to my knowledge.
EDIT: my personal knowledge of TDI motors comes from working on FORD 7.3 Powerstroke V-8s(TOTALLY different injection system) but the piston with/chamber cast into it should be similiar - others may know more.
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Well since you asked, I have gone though 3 versions of my current intercooler charge pipe setup. Version 1. 2" pool hose with 90 elbows routed about the longest way that you can imagine (from beside the alt. under the car across where the front bumper is up by the powersteering res. back towards the fire wall and then finally to the intake) net slightly better egt's then stock and max boost in third gear up 'test hill' (note same hill as I always use using same procedure as I always use to test my new mods) net result max boost of 23 psi @ approx 3900rpm. Next version same as above but using mandreal bent exhuast tubing welded with two silcone conectors for system flex. Net result max boost 23psi @ approx 3600rpm with about the same egt's (in safe area so didn't pay much attention) Third sytem back to pool hose with crappy 90 elbows but, now about a foot longer hot side and about 6 feet shorter cold side. Net result max boost of 23 psi @ approx 3200 rpm. Fourth version in progress about a foot shorter then 3rd with 2" mandrel bent exhuast tubing. In the mean time version no intercooler back to stock rubber elbow. Net result max boost of 24 psi @ 2900 rpm (and the car feels way quicker through out the rev range) egt's still in the safe area. Now considering leaving it like this till either I get my pump tweaked for alot more fuel, or till I can afford a sperco intercooler.
As for AntonUk, deepmud is correct you cannot swap the head.
As for deepmud the pumps they are swaping are still DI pumps but are fully mechanical, idi pumps do not create the pressure needed to opperate the DI injectors.
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You can't use an IDI pump on a DI. The IDI pump won't make enough pressure to make the DI run/run smoothly.
There are people that have built mech. pumps for DI's. There are a small number of DI's that run a mech. pump and a even smaller number that are available it NA. I built a mech. pump for my TDI using parts from a Land Rover 300TDI, and a VW TDI.
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The real test of an IC's effectiveness is to measure the air temperatures pre-and post-intercooler. If the IC is lowereing the charge air temp, you should be able to increase fueling, resulting in more power and faster boost build. If your car isn't smoking like a steam train going up a grade with the IC out of the loop, then you were't fueling to max anyway...
Ok, i do not have an intercooler in my car right at the momment. i am looking for a good one to put in the car. should i be putting in the intercooler first before i do the injector pump mods:
Ok lets start with the max fuel screw as even with out extra boost these motors can still definatly use extra fuel, so for this mod just break off the coller (either remove completly form pump and then remove or find the seam and pry it off with a well pointed flat blade screw driver . . . . . Note the location of the wheel, mark it, and count any turns for reference. Remember: Star wheel down=less spring resistance=increased fuel delivery rate.
or should i wait till the mods are done before the intercooler goes in? right now i have only played around with the max fuel screew on the front of the pump and it smokes like a semi truck when ever it is put under load. is that enough for the intercooler to give power boost or does it need even more fuel?
and about the egt gauge:
What this didn't cover as I had already covered it during this persons build up are the upfront costs. **These things must be in place b4 any thing you start to mod.
1. ***Exhaust from turbo back at lest 2.25" mandrel bent 2.5" is ideal, 3" is doable but takes alot more fabing.
2. Gauges. egt gauge, boost gauge, are the minimum, if you are going to do the govener mod then add a tach to that.
is this something that i really need for mods like this? i was out shopping for them today and the cheapest one i could find was $180cad. why is it important to know the egt anyway?
thanks!!!
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I'm not sure if you were responding to me or somebody else. If it was to me then I do realize that, and I am not looking for more power from an intercooler but to keep the intake charge as dense as possible (hopefully resaulting in less power lost) but the primary reson is that wiht the denser cooler air charge the cumbustion will be more complete and therefore cooler and lower egt's (not that ths is yet a concern, but I believe that it will become one once the pump has been moded, espetialy if I go with a big single tubo vs twins, as the time before the big turbo is spooled up will be an area of high egt's and a concern) However as of right now my fuel is turned up as far as the stock pump will alow my idle is approx 1300rpm with the min idle screw right out of the pump. It still will only smoke upto about 18psi or so depending on rpm range.
If this was diercted to someone else then please ignore :wink:
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In reply to 1985Jetta TD
What are you running for an exhuast??? This should be your first and foremost place to start, I would not advise playing with the pump untill this has been adressed.
2nd, No you don't have to by an EGT gauge, but how else will you be able to tell if it is too hot and about to damage somthing???? :P (sorry if I am razing ou abit here, but yes it is definatley worth the 180.00 or how ever much you have to spend on it. The EGT or Exhaust Gas Temp. Gage reads jsut that how hot the exhuast temp is. When you over fuel a diesel motor alot of heat is created quickly the only way to "keep it safe" is to know where is it at, the only way to do this is with an egt gauge. P.s the way to overcome too much fuel is to add boost, this is where you see the power gain is form burning the previously exsecive fuel.
If you put an intercooler on now or after isn't is important as an exhaust and proper gauges so if you can only get two of the three the intercooler can wait. As I stated previously right now as I am building / designing my new charge pipe I am running with out an intercooler and my egt's have yet to even enter the yellow. I contribute this to a very free flowing exhuast (3" mandrel bent) and enough boost to burn all of the fuel.
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ok i get it now, thank you.
i think that i am going to take it in for exhuast next week. i am planning on doing 2.5'' from the turbo back with just a muffler. what kind of muffler sould i use? the poeple at the shop said they would put on a performac one, does one like that help the flow compared to a stock one? what do u people sugest?
btw: this is the first time that the exhuast is being changed on my car, that right baby, 500 000 km and it still has no sign of failing. sorry, i just think that it is sooo sweet that it is still factory exhuast, lol.
thanks again!!!!
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I am running a dynomax bullet it is out of there race series, it is the best flowing muffler that I have come across, and was only like $70.00 form the local parts store. Don't put a flowmaster on they do not flow well, you are looking for te least resistance possible so something wihtout baffles, something straight through so if you look in one side you can se right out the other, and have them put it as far to the rear of the exhuast as is practical.
Thats amazing I have never had an exhuast last more then about 5yrs. :shock:
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Thanks, DVST8R, that is interesting - now I want to test bypassing my intercooler vs comparing the results with the intercooler installed.
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i'm still stumped about this whole 2.5, 3" exhaust thing...
what are you guys doing for a downpipe? as far as i know, short of fabricating from scratch, the best you can do is modify a mkIII downpipe, which has an inner diameter of about 2.125".
if anything, i'd rather have the most free-flowing part of the system be the downpipe, rather than have it be the bottleneck.
i've realized the $150 mkIII TD downpipe i bought won't work with my car/turbo without doing more work to it than its worth... so i'm all ears for downpipe options... i would like to go as big as 2.5" but anything bigger will surely bang off of the body or shift linkage in a mkI....
shameless plug: the above mentioned downpipe is for sale. mkIII TD downpipe, k03 or k24 flange (dr. diesel can you clarify i can't even remember anymore), including flex pipe and cat/soot-collector. i'll sell it for what i bought it for or at a loss if i have to.
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Lanny, did you look at my downpipe web page?
It is pretty self-explanatory, at least, showing what I did for a downpipe.
It would not be easy to duplicate, however. That german-aftermarket hartmann motorsports A2 TD downpipe had to be imported from a german friend.
http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/downpipe.htm
What I like about it is that it uses the OEM spring-clamp ball joint. It would not be all that hard to duplicate, except for those brackets on the swivel-joint. They are pretty fancy and look like they were machined on a mill. Unless you're a machinist, those swivel joint parts would be hard to duplicate. But, you could incorporate some other kind of swivel joint instead perhaps in a custom-fab downpipe, like others on this board have done (Take a look at JoeGTD's downpipe for example.)
Sounds like the 1.9lTD downpipe may not be maxxed out in size, but it still would be a heck of an upgrade over the stock 1.6lTD cast-iron part (which necks down to 1.5"ID), and might be pretty easily adaptable to an A1 or A2 1.6lTD - no custom machining required, swivel joint is already there, etc.
Hope this helps,
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Oh by the way, the sizing specs on the hartmann downpipe are:
The downpipe maintains an inside diameter of approx 2 5/16" (some standard metric tubing size probably) all the way to the end, where it enlarges to about 2.5".
I recall this size (2 5/16") seemed almost precisely what the ID of the turbine exducer bore was following the "step" (which is built into the turbo supposedly to break up air vortex patterns, which overall makes it flow easier. It's one of those weird turbo things.)
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WRT the charge pipe causing lag question, if you do the calculations for mass flow from a 2" to 3" diameter charge pipe, you will find that it only takes a few more milliseconds longer to fill the larger pipes.
I am using 3 inch charge pipes starting right after the 1st 90 degree from the turbo which is a 2.25" for about 5 inches. The rest is 3" all the way to the FMIC, and after to the intake manifold which has an 80mm inlet. There was no increase in lag at all, and top end power greatly inproved over the 2" charge pipes.
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Sounds like a terrific setup, Turbo_DS. Can you post some pics of your setup, or a link to a website?
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Lanny, did you look at my downpipe web page?
hi jake, i just looked over that webpage now.
looks great. wow, thats exactly what i am looking for right now.
the ball joint isnt much of a concern, i will redo the entire exhaust system and i planned on eliminating the C-clamps, i am not a fan.
although i do have the desire, i don't have the equipment or experience to fabricate something like that jake.. but i hope to someday.
if a company made a downpipe like yours, it is one of the expensive items that i would just break down and buy instead of trying to find an economical/DIY solution like most things...
i have a friend with a welder and the gear to do mostly bodywork and engine work, i'll talk to him about taking a stab at making a downpipe with me, but i think its beyond the capabilities of the equipment available.
the ~1.5" exhaust is really beginning to bug me:
- restrictive, less top end power
- higher EGTs
- all i have is the downpipe and no muffler/resonator because i'm waiting on a downpipe solution before i get the rest of the system put together... so the car is LOUD... might be the reason i got a 65km/h in a 50 ticket the other day.. and i think my girlfriend might finally be getting tired of it, although she grinned ear to ear at first (as did i...)
ahhh... the downpipe conundrum :?
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You might want to see if you can find a hartmann A2 GTD downpipe. They might be able to sell you one, I wouldn't know if they still make it though or if they speak english, but I was able to find their web site: http://www.hartmann-motorsport.de/
Maybe if you can find a friend who speaks german, you could have them call Hartmann germany and translate for you?
Their A2 downpipe is a simple cut, twist, and weld operation to adapt it to work in an A1. The stock VW A2 manifold to downpipe support bracket also bolts on. It is really high quality piece, with the tubing made of stainless. (with the bracketry and flanges are thick mild steel.) It is not cheap. The OEM VW swivel joint works wonderfully - allows a large, free range of motion, easy to disconnect, seals well, should be reliable and last a long time too. The lower part you can get off any VW lower downpipe and weld it to your own - and it is made of 300 series austenitic stainless too! The only problem I see is that the upper part is hard to re-create.
Note that there is a hartmann motorsports in the US as well, I don't know if it's affiliated with the german-based hartmman motorsports their logos look like a different style and their products seem different.
Or... just go with the 1.9lTD downpipe. More readily available, should be able to adapt it to fit an A1 carrying over it's flex section. Would still be a nice upgrade over a stock cast iron downpipe piece.
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thanks for the advice jake. i will follow the hartman lead...
the 1.9TD downpipe is the one i have. long story short, it was SUPPOSED to be the right flange, when i drove an hour to pick it up it was the wrong flange, but the guy convinced me i could drill two holes and make it work... it looked like it would but upon further inspection the actual path for the exhaust gases to travel through would be staggered... so not very ideal.
if i was to work with that pipe i'd not only have to cut it after the flex joint and weld on a J bend, but i would now also have to fabricate or cut off and use an existing square garrett-style flange... seems a waste to do all that work and still only end up with 2.125" inner diameter.
i'm rambling.. thanks again jake, i'll have to sort out what i'm going to do, or see if my friends in the UK or netherlands can score me a pipe...
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DVST8R:
went looking for the best pleace to get Exhaust done at today and found out that there is no pleaces in Vancouver that have mandrel bent. is this something that is really needed or could i get away with crip style with out hurting anything really bad? about the muffler u r useing, it is really loud? i HATE ones that r really loud!!!!!!!! i have seen the no baffel ones and they r sweet!
thanks sooooooooooo much u have been a huge help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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shop for gauges on ebay. it may take a little time and luck, but i picked up a new autometer EGT gauge and 35 psi boost gauge for great deals!
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black tie:
think about building a spool piece for the exhaust.
it would be a short tube with a different flange at both ends.
it wouldnt have to be more than 1 or 2 inches long and would be easier than cutting and fabbing on a new flange. also you would be able to use an off the shelf part when your down pipe rots off.
the Techtonics Tuning factory is right here in my neck of the woods and I'm going to try and have them build for me or supply me the parts to build a 2.5" down pipe from the turbo to the toilet bowl piece for my A1.
they already have all the other parts on the shelf for the rest of the exhaust system available in stainless.
I need to do a lot of other work but I am going to start there with my performance mods.
ken
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Bag the toilet bowl and go with a 2.5" flex joint to join up with their 2.25" system. That is unless you can do a 2.5" toilet bowl.
Let me know what you find, I need a down pipe too.
Larry
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Black Tie TD: my downpipe is very similar to joegtd's if you search on the hostboard site I'm sure you can find pics of it. It consists of 1 J bend walker 2.25" mandrel bent exhaust tube, and a 1/2" piece of mild steel with holes drilled at proper points and a hole saw cut 2.25" hole, the j- bend was cut about in half then a short straight section was added and then finally the other half of the j bend, creating an elongated S sorta shape, that was connected to a 2.5" flex pipe (the bigest I could find) then it is conected to a 3" exhaust system with a dynomax bullet race muffler and the out the back of the car. It sounds like an open downpipe which I had been runing for the previous 6 months until I finally got around to finishing it, but it resonates, and vibrates alot less then the open down pipe, and is somewhat quiter. Anyway back to the downpipe it was made for less the $30.00 CDN with just basic hand tools hack saw, tape mesure, square, drill and hole saw bit for drill. I did weld it together albeit with a crappy old stick machine, but you could take it to a muffler shop, or any fab shop and the most they should charge you is like $30.00 as it is like 3 welds that might take 15min time. The reason I went with 2.25" is that it was the closest to the turbo outlet as I could easily find. If I do it again I will use 304/309 (either or) stainless with a 2.5" downpipe and port match the flange to the turbo with a diegrinder, and then run a 2.5" stainless flex pipe, and clamped to a 3" aluminum mandrel bent exhaust. But that is a little costly for most, and takes a fair bit more fab skill too.
1985jettaTD - There isn't any place in Vancouver that does mandrel bent exhuast (well at least with dies as big as 2.5" +) The only way you can get that is build it yourself out of mandrel bent J's and U's from your local parts store (go see lordco). Or you can go with a crush style, if you go that route its hardly anymore to step up to a 3" system vs a 2.5" and to gain the extra flow espetially with the crush bends.
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VWRacer:
I will see if i can take some photos soon of the setup, thanks for the compliments.
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has anyone run the exhaust system with no back muffler?? iv heard some tdi guys saying they run mufflerectomy or somthing like that with no back mufflers and say its not much louder yet better spool up??
cheers guys.
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I'm running a techtonics 2.5" "cat back" with two front resonators and no rear muffler. It's pretty good. At some rpm's on the highway, it's absolutely silent. Get on the accelerator, and it really roars! Using a 3rd gen downpipe. (easy bolt-on on an A2!)
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Anyone interested in building a custom downpipe or header see my post in For Sale / Needed (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=796#796)
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Cool! I need a couple tight u bends to make up a turbo downpipe. 2.25", SS.
Cost? shipping?
Thanks,
Larry
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I've been working toward a stainless downpipe like fspGTD's.
http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/downpipe.htm
Without the extra wastegate pipe.
I was working with the 2.5" stainless J bend, after working toward making it look something like the stock downpipe, I look over at this other downpipe I have and it is different. One is longer and sets the end of the downpipe farther to the passenger side. The other is shorter and ends up with it's gasket a little higher and might run closer to the shift lever (on a Rabbit).
I figure one is for a Rabbit turbo diesel and the other is for the A2 turbo diesel setup.
I think someone on here said the A2 turbo diesel downpipe wouldn't work on the Rabbit TD ... because it gets in the way of the shifter lever. They might have even said what the difference is between the downpipes but I can't find it on here now.
Since the Rabbit downpipe will fit more cars, that's the one I should copy Can anyone help me figure which downpipe is for the Rabbit?
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I did some more searching.
Thanks mk1vw for the great picture in this thread.
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=842&highlight=rabbit+downpipe
The short one is for the A2 so I'm going to make it like the longer downpipe?
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you might want to consider a rebuilt if you're gonna do some extra mods. Some new rings definitely help!!!
thats my two cents
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fatmobile - if you tried bolting an A2 1.6lTD turbo outlet pipe into an A1, it sticks back pointing into the firewall. I can't remember if the cast iron turbo outlet pipe itself interferes with the firewall, or if it just places the outlet into a non-usable location being right next to and pointing at the firewall. But that's basically the difference... the A1 turbine outlet pipe points straight down, while the A2 version reaches and/or points more towards the rear of the car.
The "toilet bowl" as you guys seem to like the call them, can certainly be enlarged considerably, to 2.5" or beyond. The hard part is re-creating the top half of the joint in tubular metal like hartmann motorsports did (as the stock one is cast iron.) Here is a view of the hartmann motorsports tubular upper part of the joint at 2.5"ID:
(http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/dp_3.jpg)
To enlarge the lower part, you just saw off the lower part of the "bowl", to make it have a bigger outlet. Here is pictured, one that has been enlarged to 2.5"ID:
(http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/dp_lower.jpg)
It could be enlarged further yet (although I am not sure if it could make it to 3" I am not sure - maybe.) The limiting factor is the ID of the doughnut-shaped gasket, in the upper part of the joint.
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fspGTD can you get any more of those manifold? like the one you have now? i have acess to welders and so on. if you could i would like one
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I would recommend contacting Hartmann Motorsports in germany, and ask if they still make the A2 Golf GTD Downpipe. When I got mine, I had a friend living in Germany do the transaction with them for me.
http://www.hartmann-motorsport.de/
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Well since you asked, I have gone though 3 versions of my current intercooler charge pipe setup. Version 1. 2" pool hose with 90 elbows routed about the longest way that you can imagine (from beside the alt. under the car across where the front bumper is up by the powersteering res. back towards the fire wall and then finally to the intake) net slightly better egt's then stock and max boost in third gear up 'test hill' (note same hill as I always use using same procedure as I always use to test my new mods) net result max boost of 23 psi @ approx 3900rpm. Next version same as above but using mandreal bent exhuast tubing welded with two silcone conectors for system flex. Net result max boost 23psi @ approx 3600rpm with about the same egt's (in safe area so didn't pay much attention) Third sytem back to pool hose with crappy 90 elbows but, now about a foot longer hot side and about 6 feet shorter cold side. Net result max boost of 23 psi @ approx 3200 rpm. Fourth version in progress about a foot shorter then 3rd with 2" mandrel bent exhuast tubing. In the mean time version no intercooler back to stock rubber elbow. Net result max boost of 24 psi @ 2900 rpm (and the car feels way quicker through out the rev range) egt's still in the safe area. Now considering leaving it like this till either I get my pump tweaked for alot more fuel, or till I can afford a sperco intercooler.
As for AntonUk, deepmud is correct you cannot swap the head.
As for deepmud the pumps they are swaping are still DI pumps but are fully mechanical, idi pumps do not create the pressure needed to opperate the DI injectors.
What range do you deem safe for EGT's? I've heard 1400, but not for more than about a minute. Any input?
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I am never over 1300 pre turbo no matter what I do :? obviously lots of air flow and not enough fuel. However, personally I would feel safe running 1500 for short periods of time. And have seen as high as 1800 on the dodge on the dyno with no ill effects. (this was for no more than 5-7 seconds) all of these numbers are pre-turbo.
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Thanks fspGTD.