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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: fatmobile on November 17, 2019, 03:43:51 pm
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I have an ALH engine, a '91 Golf and a pump.
Starting with the clutch so I can make some timing marks for TDC and 12BTDC.
I'm going to use the MK2 020 trany to start with and upgrade to the TDI trany later, just to get it on the road faster and have it running while I collect the parts for an 02A or J
Should I use the MK2 tin clutch cover or the TDI style?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49080747686_1d0feb001b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hM6EkG)
If I use the MK2 tin covers I'll need to use the MK2 crank seal carrier,
because the MK2 tin bolts to it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49080942732_46f54e30d7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hM7Ejy)
Also wondering what to do on the other end with the serpentine belt.
Since I don't want power steering or AC.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49080784296_feda01af6b_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hM6RdU)tdifrontbelts (https://flic.kr/p/2hM6RdU) by vwfatmobile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/147103123@N05/), on Flickr
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I haven't specifically done the ALH -> Mk2 with 020 trans so I'm not sure about the intermediate plate. I think the mk2 plate and seal carrier would work.
For the serp belt, it seems to me that you could just get the right length belt so it wraps just the crank and alt and Bob's your uncle.
(https://i.imgur.com/aprMqH9h.jpg)
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Thanks Andrew, this engine didn't come with a serpentine belt tensioner.
And there are a couple other things I need to get from the guy the engine came from.
I'll figure out the proper length for the belt.
That picture is a great help.
I also decided to use the MK1 intermediate plate under the clutch.
Even though the TDI seal carrier didn't have the 3 mounting holes I kept it.
I think when the trany is bolted on,
it will hold the tin down tight enough to keep it away from the pressure plate
and tight against the seal carrier.
It just looked so dry around the seal I didn't want to mess with it.
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Andrew you suggested I get a new tensioner.
Did you mean a whole tensioner or just a new pully/idler?
Also wondering; do you know if the tensioner pully and 3 mounting bolts are TTY and need to be replaced with new ones.
Edit:
After some searching I never saw it mentioned that the 3 mounting bolts are TTY and need replaced. Just that they need torqued to 18ftlbs.
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I was talking about this whole unit: https://www.idparts.com/serpentine-belt-tensioner-a4-alh-p-629.html
I have not seen just the pulley/bearing offered aside from the entire unit. If you find that available let me know. I don't think the bolts are TTY.
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Here's just the idler pully:
https://www.idparts.com/serpentine-belt-relay-rolleridler-pulley-a4-alh-p-452.html
About half the price.
autohaus and rock auto have them for $25 for contitech or INA
Still think the whole tensioner needs replaced?
These TDIs are sure more expensive to maintain than the IDIs.
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That's not the tensioner pulley. If you look at the prior posted image of the belt system that is the idler that is below and a little to the right of the alternator pulley. That isn't needed if you plan on running just the alt with a shorter belt.
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If money is tight and you can get a used tensioner and the pulley spins well then it is worth considering. If it fails and shreds the belt like mine did, it isn't all that big of a deal. The water pump is driven by the timing belt so if the serp belt fails you can continue running without endangering the engine.
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Oohh, thanks.
I would have bought a useless idler.
The shock on the tensioner I got,
from the guy I got the engine from
feels weak too.
I'll see if he has another one that's in better shape.
If not I might need a whole new tensioner.
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I got a new tensioner and the belt I used for the AC/PS delete was
Gates belt part number K060295.
I installed the tensioner after the engine was in.
I had to pull the pin and release it before install or the pin would hit the frame.
The VNT-15 didn't work with the stock MK2 rear mount so I made one that dodged under it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49568345877_7581f0fb02_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwbJi4)
Plenty of room for exhaust from the turbo.
But the stock TDI downpipe runs too far to the p-side.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49568105046_96aeecbc5e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwauGN)
A little off center and angled slightly wrong. I'll have to make my own.
It's 2" pipe coming from the turbo.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49568333507_1915009362_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwbEBM)MTDIstockexhaustoffcenter_2 (https://flic.kr/p/2iwbEBM) by vwfatmobile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/147103123@N05/), on Flickr
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I look forward to seeing more. :)
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Some more progress:
I got the turbo downpipe done.
Along with the turbo to intake pipework.
The turbo to intake pipe was made with a piece of 1.5" ubend.
I cut it straight down the middle and turned the ends to line up with the turbo outlet and the intake.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49625151181_3b9139ce21_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iBcSwR)
The silicone coupler with the 90 is a 1.5" to 2"adapter:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5-to-2-38-51mm-Silicone-90-Degree-Elbow-Reducer-Intercooler-Coupler-Hose/163749999543?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
I'm connecting it to the barbed fitting on the thingy that bolts to the stock intake.
Because it provides some runaway protection by closing the flapper.
The exhaust was made with scrap stainless I got years ago from some pipefitters,..
pulled from a pudding line.
I welded it with my mig welder, stargon and stainless .023 wire. It worked.
The flex piece:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6-SS409-EXHAUST-FLEX-PIPE-2-00-X-6-00-2-X6-HEAVY-DUTY/223733712652?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
goes from the stock 2" 90 to the 2.5" stainless pipe.
I had to cut the stock 90 and line it up better.
The 2" stock piece fit inside, and the thickwall 2.5" stainless fit noicely around the other end.
The rest of the exhaust was 2.5" from the stock 1.6 turbo setup it had before.
Picture of inside the turbo can.
The cup needs to face this way so it can sink into the recess in the top.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49624635093_e6d85826e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iBae7M)
I'll post some pictures of the pipes in place,..
and a picture of the car but this is a post about putting an MTDI in a MK2.
It this isn't going to turn into a post about tires/rims,body work and suspension.
I can hardly wait to drive this thing. I'm buying a wrecked '98 TDI for the trany stuff and rear support.
But I'm going to get it running with the 020 first.
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The accelerator cable is tight.
Just a little short.
I wonder if the MK3 AAZ cable is longer.
I don't know much about the TDIs.
Going to have to take a look in the engine bay of one to figure some of this out.
There is a hose coming off the end of the head,..
near where the heater hose comes out.
Probably a 3/8" tube.
What is that?
A coolant/air drain from the top corner of the head?
Pipe it into the reservoir?
I'll need to get some plugs for sensors and alternator.
I wonder how those will work with the dash.
Which sensor is for the dash temp gauge?
Glow plugs have a manual button, ford starter solenoid.
Wired it up to a stock TDI glow plug buss.
Wired up the injection pump.
Put a blade on the pump, Mk2 style.
Most of the MK2 coolant hoses are lining up nicely.
One extra 5/8" port pointing out the front of the engine.
I'll have to figure out how to plug that.
Vacuum hose from the pump to the booster is going to have to be short and bendy.
Practically and S curve.
Wonder what the TDI one looks like.
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The small hose coming off the head is an air bleed. Yes, route it to the reservoir.
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Got the turbo to intake pipe installed.
Along with the airbox to turbo plumbing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49698911443_86a714e3d3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iHHUTv)
I'm using the MK2 airbox.
It's 2 3/4".
I used this one to go from 2 3/4"down to 2"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicone-45-Degree-BOV-Reducer-Elbow-Hose-51mm-70mm-2-2-3-4-2-75/202792017449?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I think I removed 1 3/4" from the 2" end.
The turbo input is 1 3/4"
I used this 45 degree elbow to go up to 2" from 1 3/4".
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-75-2-45-DEGREE-REDUCER-4-PLY-RED-SILICONE-HOSE-INTAKE-TURBO-TUBE-COUPLER/182387132762?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Had to cut a little off to get it back from the frame.
I had a piece of 2" scrap stainless with a bend that went between the 2.
It will also have a pipe for the PCV hose,.. a piece of 3/4" silicone radiator hose.
Onto the cooling system.
The upper radiator hose for the MK2 was a little short.
I bought this piece:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gates-Rubber-Products-21703-Upper-Radiator-Hose-12-Month-12-000-Mile-Warranty/143207347269?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
and used the 180 from the upper radiator port (1 1/4").
The stock hose shrinks down to 1 1/8" away from the end.
So I had to find a 1 1/4" to 1 1/8" adapter to splice them together.
https://pay.ebay.com/rxo?action=create&rypsvc=true&pagename=ryp&item=292873093554&transactionid=-1&quantity=1&var=591642912683&rev=1&rsp=true
The small line coming from the injectors is plumbed into the 1/4" line heading back to the tank through one of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-X-1-8-HOSE-BARB-TEE-Brass-Pipe-3-WAY-T-Fitting-Thread-Gas-Fuel-Water-Air/171988984668?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Pretty tight fit with all this piping but they clear the frame and each other nicely.
I'll get a better picture,.. maybe from underneath.
The exhaust pic just looks like an exhaust pic so I didn't post it.
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Looks good. :)
Nice to see posts from you here, fatmobile. I remember reading a lot of helpful info from you way back 15+ years ago on the vwdieselparts.com forum when I was climbing the learning curve with my first VW diesel, an old 1.6 Rabbit. I moved on to TDIs long ago but have been back reading here recently about M-TDI pumps for a Toyota pickup project I'm working on now. Just was reading some good info from your thread about the work you did on the IP for this car when I realized your username was familiar.
Glad to see you're still playing with these rigs, and look forward to seeing how this runs when you finish it up. 8)
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Hey V8 I remember you. I've found alot of the old vwdieselparts crew scattered from here to TDI club.
Progress:
A better shot of the turbo to intake pipe:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49726144317_d014b32161_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iL8ugP)
Air supply from filter to turbo:
The tape is covering the spot where a port will be welded for the PCV hose.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49725824281_6954ae4839_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iL6R8X)
The upper radiator hose mod that adds a bit to the stock radiator hose.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49726143357_99ec2d9ea0_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iL8tZg)
The 32mm to 28mm adapter I linked to earlier is from UK so I won't get one until may.
So I made my own. Out of a 4 dollar piece of aluminum.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49725313873_d615140655_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iL4epP)lathecoupler (https://flic.kr/p/2iL4epP) by vwfatmobile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/147103123@N05/), on Flickr
With my tiny Atlas hobby lathe it took me hours to get it made but it fit great.
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IT"S ALIVE!!!!
Got it running.
I still need to time it and do some electrical stuff.
Coolant temp gauge.
Oil pressure gauge.
Alternator blue wire needs a plug for the back of alternator.
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I do have a small leak from the NPT plug I stuck in the front:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225869591_bfaf53f15f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZVs2v)
It felt like the hole was a little big for a 1/8" NPT plug.
I'll have to pull the lid, take it out and use some kind of chemical seal instead of teflon tape.
Any suggestions on a sealer that can handle diesel fuel at 200psi?
Is there a loc-tite or should I just clean up fuel and use JB weld on the plug?
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I would be of the type to try JB weld on it. Let is set a few days then get fuel next to it.
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That's how I think too,...
but a buddy mentioned some kind of green lock-tite that might work.
I could maybe get it redone tomorrow
and it can sit until after the freakin snowstorm we are getting Sunday.
Not sure at all how the engine temp gauge will work with the TDI sender.
The MK2 sender went from around 47ohms to 270 ohms.
Not sure what the range is on a TDI temp sender.
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Snowstorm???? Man it is almost mid April. What is with your weather? We finally got sun and sixty the last couple of days. Interior, Rouge Valley was high 70's and even cracked 81 for a few hours.
Summer is coming but very slowly. OK by me, I work outside and don't need to be cooked like a chicken dinner all the time.
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Checked the actual ohms on the temp senders for both engines.
They were close so I hooked up the violet to the gauge and the brown and white wire to ground.
We'll see if it works.
Alternator plug for the TDI has 2 wires.
1 and 2 stamped into it where the wires go in.
The #1 wire has blue near the base so I used it as the exciter wire,
connected to the light in the dash.
It works great.
Was able to use the VDO sender for the oil pressure gauge.
The switch in the oil filter housing was the same 10M1.
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Changed the timing belt.
Got the PCV hose sorted out:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49855536563_5da0319aff_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iXyE5B)
Not sure the TDI temp sensor will work with the MK2 gauge yet.
Seems a little doggy.
RPMs hang if I turn the max fuel screw in all the way.
Haven't taken it for a long drive yet.
Am working on the tire alignment.
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Doesn't seem like the TDI temp sensor will work with the MK2 gauge.
I found a longer accelerator cable:
171 721 555k
According to this site it's from an old gasser Rabbit.
http://www.zsimports.com/vw-control-cables.html
The cable stuck out too far so I had to shorten it.
Crimped it with some scrap metal,
then I wrapped it in quick steel moldable epoxy.:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49936776707_8d21ac0d86_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j5K2WK)
Took it out for a few miles and got on it.
EGTs are too high and boost is too low.
The VNT-15 vanes are disconnected and fully closed so it should over boost like the 1.6 Rabbit.
I think playing with the timing will help.
I timed a TDI then put the pulse detector on it to see where they normally like to sit timing wise.
It was about 1 1/2 teeth from the TDC Mark.
I think that's less than 3 degrees BTDC.
Here's a pic of an '84 Rabbit flywheel because they came with timing marks.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49936519876_3a16b18998_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j5HHAC)flywheeltimingmarks (https://flic.kr/p/2j5HHAC) by vwfatmobile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/147103123@N05/), on Flickr
I don't know if the teeth per degree is the same but
I'm running 13 degree BTDC so I'll try retarding it.
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If you timed and tested a stock eTDI, then likely the timing is retarded at idle to lower NOx emissions. I've found that 12° BTDC is great for either IDI or TDI assuming the advance curve works well. Playing with it this way or that won't hurt, though. Report back what you find.
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I turned it back to 6 degrees BTDC.
Lost the low end torque I had.
Kinda expected it to be slower.
EGTs to 1500 and boost slowly maxed at 15 PSI.
I'll try going above 13D BTDC.
It's not real clackity up there so there might be room.
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Turned it up to 14 and had much better lower end torque.
This time I revved it to see if the advance was working.
It didn't seem to be.
The timing light sat on the same mark up past 1500RPM
and I could still see flashes of it while trying to hold steady at 2000 RPM.
So I took out the internal pump pressure checker.
Results:
50psi @ 880 RPM ,... idle.
80psi At 2000 RPM.
Not sure what the specs are for this pump but
it's building lots of pressure.
Sooo that's probably not the problem.
Also any suggestions on where to tap in a MK2 temp sensor?
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Have you had the dynamic advance piston areas of the pump apart? You might pull the two covers, put the engine so that the pump is between humps of the camplate, then see if the dynamic piston will move back and forth. I have not tried that before with the pump on the car, but with the ALH it is probably possible.
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I did pull the timing piston while I was changing seals.
I think I just wanted to see if there was some way to hook up a cold start cable.
I will check to see how easy it moves.
Maybe remove some shims.
Right, with the way the pump tilts forward I might be able to get to both sides of the piston.
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Also any suggestions on where to tap in a MK2 temp sensor?
On my '91 ALH Vanagon install, I made a simple adapter plate for the end of the head and used an aluminum coolant flange from a Mk1/Mk2 that already had the temp sensors for gauge a glow plugs.
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I found one flat spot on the ALH waterneck and it just happened to be on the only thick part.
The rest was really thin.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49971976582_990008a269_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j8RrD9)MTDItempsensor (https://flic.kr/p/2j8RrD9) by vwfatmobile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/147103123@N05/), on Flickr
It's also near the top so easy access for plugging it in.
It still didn't work so I pulled the cluster and both the gauge mounting bolts were loose.
They provide electrical contact.
So the stock ALH sender might have worked, I still kinda doubt it.
It works now,.. but it looks like the thermostat needs changed
because the needle won't go into the center of the gauge.
Won't go above the first mark.
TDIs are supposed to run at the same temp as the IDIs right?
Going to move it back to 12 BTDC and get a new thermostat.
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In looking at the picture of the flange, my memory was jogged a little. For future reference there is a sender that works in the stock ALH or AHU location. It is a two-part sensor and allows temperature readings for glow plugs and for gauge - two pins each from a 4-pin sensor.
I also worked on an ALH of mine last weekend and realized when looking at it that despite the angle of the pump, the back of the pump bracket would prevent removing the back dynamic advance cover.
The normal operating temp should be about the same. The TDI's take longer to warm up, though.
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My engine has the 4-pin sender.
I hooked it up.
Used the wire that read close to the MK2 sender in resistance
and the ground wire for that part of the sender was grounded to a bolt on the head.
Unfortunately the bolts holding the gauge to the circuit board were loose.
So the contact was bad.
I assumed it was the sender not working with the gauge and unhooked it.
When it still didn't work with the stock sender I tracked it to the gauge nuts.
So that 4-pin sender which is probably meant to feed info to the ECU
might actually work with the MK2 gauge.
I wondered what the other 2 wires were for.
Side note: That's a pretty expensive temp sender.
In true VW fashion
the thermostat is the same as the one used in the MK1 and 2.
I had a stash of old tested thermostats and swapped one in.
Temp rides right down the middle.
I noticed the injection pump's back timing cover being blocked too.
Maybe put a seal in another front cover so I can see if a pin moves when running.
There is almost no pressure behind that cover,
in fact it's connected to the front of the pump.
I've been wanting to build something like it for awhile anyway.
So I can see the piston moving.
Might be the turbo too.
It should be building more boost.
I'll tie the vanes closed just in case the exhaust flowing through it is causing the vanes to open.
It starts great even when cold.
Jumps to life. Without glow plugs.
Has great low end grunt.
But EGTs climb too fast and boost not fast enough.
At 1200 boost is only at 10psi.
If I step on it EGTs run up to 1500 and boost doesn't climb past 10psi.
Torque drops off.
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There are several 4-pin TDI temp senders that are not the same. The part number of the one that works correctly is 357919501 (green ring). That sensor is two sensors in one and gives the correct resistances on either in order to run the gauge or glow plugs. The correct connector and pigtail is readily available for cheap, often sold as an "VW A/C Connector". Here's one for $5: https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-C-Pressure-Switch-Pigtail-Plug-Cable-Connector-For-Audi-A4-A6-A8-VW-Passat-B5/332918478538?fits=Make%3AVolkswagen&hash=item4d837cd6ca:g:3yAAAOSwV0RXrS3R
When you say you have considered placing a seal in the dynamic piston cover, I assume you mean the outer dished one. The spring side (outer) of the dynamic advance piston has a channel to no pressure. The plate side (back of pump toward the block/head) has a channel to internal pump pressure.
Ah, I thought that you had fastened the vanes in the closed position. If the vanes are able to move, they will move to the fully open position. If they aren't totally stuck, exhaust flow is definitely enough to push them open.
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I did have a rod on it earlier.
But it wasn't hooked to anything.
Just a foot long piece of allthread.
I thought the weight of it would hold the lever down, vanes closed.
I'll make sure it's held firmly in place and try again.
It should over boost easily, like the rabbit.
I have a controller built for it but haven't mounted it or the rods.
Thanks for including the temp sensor info in this topic.
It won't help me with this engine but I'm trying to get all the info in one thread
For others thinking about an ALH MTDI build.
It's also nice to be able to look back on my old threads to see how much I forgot, he he.
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It's running great.
First refill at 1/4 tank and it got 46 MPG.
That's with some beating on it,
lots of in town driving
and chasing down an air in the fuel problem that required lots of idling.
I used a 12mm pump from Andrew so it's a little clackity.
Some white smoke when taking off so I might advance the timing.
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Got around to hooking an 02A trany to it.
Shifter and cables along with shift tower and linkage swapped from a later MK4.
Peddle cluster from a Corrado, with the pin-mount for the clutch.
So the clutch master had to be for a Corrado and mounts with the pin.
Engine bay, bracket for the brake booster, with built-in clutch master cylinder bracket,
came from a B4 passat.
I had heard that the K-frame or rear crossmember had to be swapped to the MK3 one.
The difference between the rear engine/trany mounting points, on a MK3 and MK2 frame, isn't the trany mount.
is the passenger side mount and it's welded to the K-frame.
Easier to swap crossmembers, than to cut both off and weld it onto the MK2 frame.
Because I made a custom rear motor mount to clear the VNT and bolt to the MK2 mount,
I could just keep the MK2 rear crossmember.
The front crossmember doesn't sit at the same angle as the MK3 front motor mount.
I heard the B3 Passat front crossmember is the cure.
It running good.
Still too much fuel for this turbo so I can't really floor it, got to watch the gauges.
Getting some more parts together now.
An intercooler and better flowing intake from a BRM TDI to install.
AAAnd some more body work to do.