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General Information => Upgrades (non engine related ) => Topic started by: Runt on April 01, 2010, 01:46:58 am
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I have read a bunch of different opinions on sway bars for the VWs, but it seems that none of them have given me all the information.
None of my diesel VWs (currently 91 mk2 Jetta TD) have had the factory rear torsion tube (about 20mm dia) inside the folded V shaped crossbar of the rear beam. Is this a GTI only part, or were the diesels shorted, or ??? Does anyone know how much difference this tube makes? If someone says they like a 25mm rear bar, I'd like to know if that is with or without the factory tube. I do know that when I put Passat stuff in my first golf, I used the rear beam with the tube, and springs/struts (cut one coil), and it handled much better than stock. Problem is I did it all at once, so I don't know what parts helped.
Also, does anyone know if there was a bigger front swaybar used in any of the mk2s? I'll probably try a rather stiff rear bar, and then stiffen the front a little to balance things the way I want, so if there is something better than my factory front bar in a wreckers, it might save me a little money, and certainly give me a point of reference before I start ordering pricey aftermarket bars.
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IIRC they came with the GTIs and GLIs (maybe for Europe, the GTDs too?). North America diesels generally got the economy package parts.
I have the whole rear axle in my garage from a 1991 Jetta with the disc brakes and torsion tube. It's waiting for the day I feel sufficiently motivated to install it. I'll let the board know how different the handling is when I get to that point.
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That's strange. Both my 1986 1.6 NA Jetta diesel and my 1992 Jetta GL 1.6 TD had the torque tube in the axle. Maybe it only came to Canada. Can any other Canadians comment?
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That's strange. Both my 1986 1.6 NA Jetta diesel and my 1992 Jetta GL 1.6 TD had the torque tube in the axle. Maybe it only came to Canada. Can any other Canadians comment?
85 golf na, german built, canadian market
late 90/early 91 (small bumper reg'd as 91) jetta td german built, canadian market
91 jetta td german built, canadian market
None of them had the factory torque tube. Your good luck, or my bad? Oh well. I'm going to add it to my jetta. I've got the rear beam from the passat brake donor, I may take the tube out of it and weld it into the beam in my jetta. I need to measure the tube, and compare it to a gti beam. I'm also considering other options for the tube, as I suspect that I want more stiffness than the factory tube will give me. That is why I want to know how much benefit the factory tube is, and if people like a 25mm bar with or without the factory tube. Once I cut and weld in a tube, it is not an easy thing to adjust or replace. If a 25mm -28mm bar is good without the factory tube, then a solid 25mm (proper tempered spring steel, etc.) bar in the factory welded location should be ample. If the 25-28 is on top of the factory bar, then I would be thinking 28-31 in the factory location. I think I know of donor source for a 1-1/4" (about 31mm) bar that I could use, if not, I'll have to get pricing from a spring shop to see if this makes sense (financially).
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just remember, passats are wider by quite a bit.
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That's strange. Both my 1986 1.6 NA Jetta diesel and my 1992 Jetta GL 1.6 TD had the torque tube in the axle. Maybe it only came to Canada. Can any other Canadians comment?
How do you know that these were not added later, by a previous owner?
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That's strange. Both my 1986 1.6 NA Jetta diesel and my 1992 Jetta GL 1.6 TD had the torque tube in the axle. Maybe it only came to Canada. Can any other Canadians comment?
How do you know that these were not added later, by a previous owner?
Well, the 86 had been used for 8 months by a guy who was relocated. The 1992, however, was new right off the showroom floor. I remember thinking what an ingenious idea that was for a sway bar when I saw it up on the hoist the first time. That was the end of the Mk 2s, though, and mine, though a base model, was dressed like a GL. The dealer said VW always did that to use up excess stock at the end of a model run.
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I don't recall ever seeing a rear torque tube on any of my mk2 diesels. I've never really looked though. I have 3 right now. If it's not raining after work I'll climb under and have a look.
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Turns out I actually have 4, funny how that happens.
2 1989 TD Germany built Jettas - no torque tube
1 1991 TD Germany built Jetta - no torque tube
1 1991 NA Mexican built Golf - torque tube
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'86 Westy Golf here, no sways front or rear. And it sucks.
I think we are getting torque tube and rear sway confused. AFAIK they are the same. You can either have a rear beam or rear beam with swaybar.
I don't recall the actual sizes of the bars, but I know there were two different ones for A2 chassis, the standard GTI rear bar and the 16v GTI and GLI bar were bigger. I think the fronts were both the same.
Brendan
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I am running in the front of my mk2 a mk3 gti front bar 21mm IIRC and a shine rear bar. I would say go with the shine first and see how you like it then add the front bar later since it is so much work.... I am running this on a mk3 lower end too so I have wider track width.
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I am running in the front of my mk2 a mk3 gti front bar 21mm IIRC and a shine rear bar. I would say go with the shine first and see how you like it then add the front bar later since it is so much work.... I am running this on a mk3 lower end too so I have wider track width.
Would the mk3 bar work with the mk2 subframe and lower control arms? I was pretty positive that the b3 Passat bar would not fit, as the center had the bends in the wrong spot. Please tell me I did not throw out a part that would have worked. :-\ I do have the factory front sway bar, might be 15-18mm, something like that.
'86 Westy Golf here, no sways front or rear. And it sucks.
I think we are getting torque tube and rear sway confused. AFAIK they are the same. You can either have a rear beam or rear beam with swaybar.
I don't recall the actual sizes of the bars, but I know there were two different ones for A2 chassis, the standard GTI rear bar and the 16v GTI and GLI bar were bigger. I think the fronts were both the same.
Brendan
Yes, I used 'torque tube' to describe the rear swar bar to make sure that people knew that I meant the straight bar welded in, not an added on sway bar as most cars have. Thanks for the info on the two different bars, at least now I have an idea of what to go out and measure to get a better idea, if not what to get parts from.
Turns out I actually have 4, funny how that happens.
2 1989 TD Germany built Jettas - no torque tube
1 1991 TD Germany built Jetta - no torque tube
1 1991 NA Mexican built Golf - torque tube
Can you tell if the sway bar/tube actually makes a difference? Does the car with it ride flatter than the car without? (I'm assuming that both cars have the front bar.)
Thanks everybody for the info.
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sway bars lessen body roll, thats it. they dont make it ride any harsher or softer, least they shouldnt.
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really stiff sway bars will hurt ride quality, as they reduce the wheels ability to move independently of its counterpart.
generally with front wheel drive cars, a stiff bar in the rear, and a soft one(or none at all) in the front is the best for maintaining traction through the corner, that way you reduce body roll(with the rear swaybar) but don't unload the inside front tire(like you would if you had a stiff sway bar in the front)
makes the car look funny in a hard corner(can sometimes lift the inside rear wheel off the pavement) but will allow you to keep power to the pavement better.
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Can you tell if the sway bar/tube actually makes a difference? Does the car with it ride flatter than the car without? (I'm assuming that both cars have the front bar.)
No. The Jetta has blown suspension on all 4 corners and drives like a total bag.
The Golf has mk3 VR6 springs and is pretty harsh without an engine in the hatch.
Both do have the front sway bar but the end links are all worn out so it's not doing what it should.
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sway bars lessen body roll, thats it. they dont make it ride any harsher or softer, least they shouldnt.
Not sure if you were replying to me or not, but my question was:
Can you tell if the sway bar/tube actually makes a difference? Does the car with it ride flatter than the car without? (I'm assuming that both cars have the front bar.)
Note I said flatter, not stiffer. I've commented (in the thread that I spun this question out of, i think) that I had aset of used H&Rs for now, and am going coil-overs as soon as I can get my cheap/poor hands on a set that I am sure will meet my needs. I do agree with Truckinwagen that at extremes the swaybars will affect ride quality, and I will probably approach that extreme myself. However, stiffness is not my goal, just roll control. I like the go kart feel. ;D Besides, when the car wallows around, the wife wants me to slow down, in my old 1 ton Suburban (Massive front, moderate rear bars) I could go as fast as I liked, because she didn't feel like she was going to fall or rollover of the edge of the road. ;)
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Can anyone share their experiences on caddies?
I pulled a thick front bar off of a cabby a while back and am still in search of a suitable rear bar. I think I'll install the front bar when I replace the front suspension and worry about the rear when I find something.
Why do most fwd cars come from the factory with front bars and no rear? Just to accentuate the understeer most people are accustomed to?
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Caddy
Get a lower K brace off a Scirocco, and a good top strut brace. These tie the wobbly front end together. Then add a front bar from a GTI and an aftermarket rear bar if you wish (front makes the most difference). The difference is amazing.
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That's what I was hoping to hear, I have the neuspeed upper bar installed and the eurosport 4 point lower tie bar to be installed with new control arms, sway bar, struts etc.
While on the topic of caddy suspension and other mkI and mkII would widening the rear to match the track width of the front using spacers be poor for the suspension geometry of a fwd car?
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First, I am no expert on Caddys, I've worked on a couple, but not yet found one in my price range.
That said, I can speak in general terms. Generally, widening the track increases the cornering forces generated, and the maximum cornering force available before the vehicle becomes unstable. This is where a significant benefit can be had by swapping mk3 suspension into a mk2. The track width is increased by over an inch, iirc. However, this is normally done front and rear together. Widening just the rears of your caddy would increase the rear grip and forces, therefore causing your car to understeer more than it currently does. If it's anything like any of my rabbit/golf/jettas, the last thing you need is MORE understeer. FWIW, I also really don't like spacers. They have a nasty habit of allowing wheels to work loose, which is a really unpleasant experience. Even worse when your wife calls to say that 'the wheel just fell off the truck, it's on the side of the highway, and three of the bolts are broken'! :o Also, the add to the stresses that are borne by those little rear wheel bearings, by moving the wheel centerline outside of the bearing centers, and setting up a twisting force. If you really wanted to widen the rears, I'd reccomend actually widening the axle beam itself. However, I would only do this if you were matching to a widened front.
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The caddy does not understeer nearly as much as regular rabbits but it still leans heavily in that direction.
I've run spacers without problems in the past but have heard horror stories like yours. I think the key is quality hardware and torque!
I'd just like the caddy's rear to be somewhat closer to the track width of the front but I have a lot of suspension work to do in the meantime so maybe I'll look at widening whilst installing a rear sway to try to find some balance.
Thanks for the info.
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I have an idea I'd like to run by the folks here whom in general are smarter than I.
To overcome the issue of interference between the stock a1 sway bar setup and the diesel fuel lines near the rear control arm bushings would it be possible to make a spacer to move the bracket which holds the rear control arm bushing down to clear the fuel line? I don't know a lot about suspension geometry. My car is not super low so a 1/2" spacer to move the control arm closer to the ground wouldn't invert my arms or anything like that. Is this a horrible idea? Or not thought through far enough?
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Again, my knowledge of the caddy is not great, but I'll give this a go. If I understand correctly, you are asking about dropping the rear bushing for the front control arm, where it attaches to the main structure? This would result in the lower control arm being lower at the rear than at the front, and having less slope down (towards the ball joint), correct?
If so, this is not a great idea, for a couple of reasons, but is probably doable, if you had to, and did it right, and checked on it periodically. I see three issues:
Least important: the change in lower control arm angle is effectively only half of the amount you drop the bushing, as long as you do only one of the two bushings. As such it is a relatively minimal change, but you may experience a little more bumpsteer tendency, and your dynamic camber behaviour may be slightly less than ideal. Neither of these is really worth worrying about for your 1/2" spacer.
More important: changing the angle of the control arm in the longitudinal plane is sometimes done with double a-arms to create or reduce anti dive (under braking) or anti squat (under acceleration). Without having really looked at your geometry (and re-read some books that I haven't looked at in 15 years) I dare not even guess what effect this might have. If there was an effect, once you factor in torquesteer, things may get a little weird. I'd class this as a try it and see kind of thing, but it may be an issue.
Most important: those lower control arms secure the spindles, which hold the wheels to the car. Any modification you make may reduce the reliability of that attachment, and therefore reduce your safety. Any type of spacer would require an alignment pin of some sort, IMHO. Simple through-bolts would not be adequate in my opinion, as the spacer would act as a washer to allow the busing to slide, flexing the through bolt side to side, possibly leading to a stress fracture (failure) of the through bolt. And (at least on my A2), when the rear lower control arm bolt breaks/falls out, the car does some really wierd torque/brake steering. Don't ask me how I know, I just know!
So to summarize, you could probably try it, but put lots of time into designing the spacer with some sort of positive location, to ensure no movement, and be sure to select top quality attachment hardware for the through bolts, or if you are trying to reuse the factory bolts, dust them with paint, tighten them to 1/2 of recommended torque, and remove them to check that you have adequate thread engagement.
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Thanks for the detailed reply obviously from an engineering background of some sort! Having laid about looking at the interference issue I think the answer is probably to remove a piece of the hardline and replace/reroute with viton.
If I was to build a spacer(s) I think the way to go would be to space both the front and rear or the contol arm to maintain the largest amount of normal geometry as possible.
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You'd also have to space both sides evenly or the sway bar would constantly "sway" the car to the left.