VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: srgtlord on March 18, 2012, 09:32:38 am
-
New timing belt, I swapped injection pumps, set timing to .90mm now its reallly difficult to start the stupid thing and it smokes bluish greyish smoke ??? My car did not have this issue before the pump swap, but granted its been sitting for almost 1 month. Whats going on here? Is the timing advanced too far? The engine does idle on the lower side. Whats going on here?
-
If it realy realy runs like a bag of nuts, pherhaps the pump is 180° wrong.
Best Regards
-
The pump timing is where its supposed to be. The 90's injection pump cogs only had 1 lock pin hole. Maybe I advanced the timing too far? Ill try retarding the timing and go from there.
-
Hi,
if the pump was opened before you installed it? The pump internals could be switched 180° also inside the pump.
A static timing of 0,9 mm is no issue, it starts to run clumsy at idle speed with approximate 1,0 mm or more.
If the internal pump pressure is much to low it runs also as you stated, pherhaps this could be a good start for
finding the problem.
Best Regards
-
The pump was resealed by a fellow member on this board. The car idles a bit low when I can get it to start but it does run ok, just lots of bluish-grey smoke out the tail pipe and black smoke when accelerating. Ive never had to crank it over so many times to get it to start with the other pump. For that matter, even with dead glowplugs I could get the beast to start..... and for the record I installed 3 new glowplugs.
-
0.90mm is stock spec Mk2 NA
stock variance is + or - 0.05
so you are not too advanced on the timing
Was this a pump you had run previously, and sent to be resealed.
Or a pump you have never run before ?
1 tooth off on inj pump is common sometimes on belt job/pump swap.
Maybe double check that if you haven't already.
Also might want to try timing adjustments with engine running - i would start by going more advance - towards engine.
Could also be a combination of the fuel screw being IN too far (too rich - the smoke)
and the throttle arm index being 1 spline too slow (the hard start)
If all else fails - put old pump back on to get verification that its not an engine issue.
-
This was a new-to-me pump that I purchased from a member of this forum. Maybe the pump is off 1 tooth? I lined everything up just fine but ill double check. Worse comes to worse is there a way to fudge the timing without taking the belt off again?
-
You'd need to roll it back around to TDC on flywheel - where cam lock slide will fit - and see if pump lock will slide right in.
If it is 1 tooth off - you have to start over from #1 TDC - cam lock slide shimmed in - cam sprocket loose - tensioner loose - wrench the inj sprocket 1 tooth and get pump lock in. May even need to remove cam sprocket to get enough slack.
I use spring clamps on the intermediate shaft pulley to hold belt tight off the crank sprocket - then wrench the pump sprocket down into next belt cog.
Pump will "spring" back up and belt is tight.
Can move sprocket just enough with the pump lock in place to do this.
If you install belt normally with everything locked - usually you will have slack between crank/intermediate/pump. When all is done - pump is 1 tooth off. You have to "feed" the pump sprocket into next belt cog and it pulls the slack. Always keep watch of flywheel TDC mark.
-
Always keep watch of flywheel TDC mark.
Which, BTW will still move enough to throw you off, even if the car is in gear.
-
I went out and checked the pump sprocket and the locking pin slides in with just a little wiggle room. It is still TDC at the flywheel. Before I put the valve cover back when I first put the belt on I triple checked everything. I might pull the valve cover again just to be absolutely sure, but I doubt it moved after I torqued the cam sprocket down(I had the cam locking tool in place and counterheld the cam pulley). I mean if it jumped time (I do not see how and this is my second timing belt change after 40,000 miles) Pistons would have hit valves and terrible terrible things would have happened.
-
I was the one who resealed this pump. It was off a running 1.6 NA motor when I pulled it, it sat for a while full of fuel and everything capped off. It was a clean looking pump inside, no reason to expect any crazy wear. Plus it was off a well running engine.
(sorry my old phone took horrible pictures)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/IMG01263-20120109-1913.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/IMG01272-20120111-1235.jpg)
The idle adjustments and max fuel screw were approximately in the stock positions, but they may need tweaking if it is idling too low.
-
I'm thinking you cold pull #1 injector pipe and do a spill test to check for 180 out, but i never tried.
-
The thing is I was able to drive it down the road today so I doubt its 180 degrees out, but covered the entire street with a blanket of whitish greyish smoke. I feel bad for the guy on the motorcycle behind me...
-
So what in the pump would be 180 degrees out? isn't there a woodruff key? Anywho I put the updated injection pump pulley on the older pump because the one that came with it was cracked. I know the old pulleys have 2 holes, so your saying if I put the 2 hole pulley on, rotate 180 degrees and problem solved?
-
No the two holed pulley only goes on one way because of that woodruff key. Inside the pump there is a part that goes locks into the input shaft about mid way in the pump itself. The head of the high pressure pump gets keyed into that. The part can be installed in two ways, one is correct, the other makes it 180 out. You can do one of two things.
1. Pull the pump apart and check to be sure the alignment of all the parts is correct. Only advisable for those knowing how to take pumps apart.
2. Use the hole on the other side of the front pulley as if it were the correct one. Timing mark would not be visible on the top of the pump as it is now 180 out and on the bottom. You just want to lock the pump in that manner and reinstall the belt. All other procedures to get it set on TDC are the same, once you have the belt off you pull the pin, turn the pulley 180 degrees and reset the pin. Reinstall and tension up the belt.
Hand crank a couple of revs and try it. Some adjustment might be required afterwards to get timing on spec. Do you have a dial gauge? Use it just like normal.
Hope that works for you. DAS
-
You could try -
put engine a Little Past #1 TDC
remove #1 Inj Line from back of pump
wad up a piece of paper or bubblegum wrapper that fits loosely snug in the delivery valve
rotate engine back around - if the "plug" pops out after 1 engine revolution - pump is 180 out.
if it takes 2 engine revolutions to pop the plug - its in spec.
Might should put power to the fuel solenoid when doing the test (key on).
-
Owwwoooo I like that test. I would just run a jumper rather than key on though.
-
So what in the pump would be 180 degrees out? isn't there a woodruff key? Anywho I put the updated injection pump pulley on the older pump because the one that came with it was cracked. I know the old pulleys have 2 holes, so your saying if I put the 2 hole pulley on, rotate 180 degrees and problem solved?
You know it is entirely 100% possible that this could be the issue.. unfortunately, nobody is perfect :(.
Worked out perfectly that this picture shows everything I want to explain :) lol. The yellow is the back side of a cam plate and a distributor. The red is the relation between the cam plate and the main shaft. The key idea is the pin and slot of the distributor and cam plate need to line up with the key way in the main shaft.
So as can be seen in the first grungy pump photo and the red in the second photo, there are two spots for the cam plates identical "fingers" to intersect the pumps shaft. This can obviously only be put in two ways, the right way and 180* out, the opposite way. From there it is a pin on the back of the cam plate and a corresponding slot in the distributor for said pin to go in. As can be seen by the yellow in the second picture.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/2012-03-15212917.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/2012-02-17211833.jpg)
-
After the papertowel wad test It appears the pump is in fact 180 out :( thank god for this forum.
-
As in take the belt off and turn the injection pump cog 180?
-
Yeh, you gotta get the pump back into synch now. (180*)
To keep things in perspectives and less complex - you really need an old style inj pulley with 2 lock holes. And make a new alignment paint mark on rim of pulley.
If you use the newer 1 holer - and time with #4 - you won't be able to use the cam lock slide to set up all the initials. You can overcome this - but it gets things way more complex - and probably introduces higher chances for less accuracy too.
-
I ordered a nos 2 hole pulley from an ebay seller. Apparently there are 9 others still left for $26 a peice.
-
Thats a really fair price for a brand new VW Sprocket.
Good Find
I agree on the godsend of this forum and the info shared/pooled.
And lets be thankful there even is such thing as a 2 hole sprocket.
The saving grace on this deal
-
The saving grace on this deal
Absolutely, I apologize profusely for this mishap.
-
Alright, new pulley came in the mail today. I should be able to tackle the issue this weekend.
-
Thats a promising note.
At least you actually received the sprocket - and its correct.
Hope all goes well with the big re-gig this weekend.
-
The pump was out 180. I turned the key and it started instantly with no smoke at all.
-
Glad you got it to go. But this is a little disturbing:
The pump was resealed by a fellow member on this board. Ooopsie. Have to fix that the next time it goes to leaking. Or did you just put a mark on the new pulley on what would be the bottom side?
So How well does it run?
-
I marked a new timing mark on the new pulley and called it a day. It runs really good now that the timing is not off. I cannot believe it even ran with the pump 180 out. I was getting worried for a bit that by some off chance I wrecked my engine. All is good now :)
-
Sounds like a winner Sarge.
It is wild how these rascals can still run sometimes.
I guess we don't get to start calling Jeremy, 8V of Prothery yet tho. lol
He had it all the way apart, and back together, and it runs fine now.
Maybe he needs to go be Prothe's new shop supervisor.
-
You know, I wonder if thats why most of prothes pumps do not run, he puts the shafts in 180 off lol nevermind the chineese delivery valves and distributor crap.
-
I guess we don't get to start calling Jeremy, 8V of Prothery yet tho. lol
He had it all the way apart, and back together, and it runs fine now.
Maybe he needs to go be Prothe's new shop supervisor.
To be honest I do not know how I missed this.. :( like it only goes in two ways.. and I have built other pumps. Just a stoopid goof on my part. I take full blame, but I am very glad you got it solved up easily enough.
You know, I wonder if thats why most of prothes pumps do not run, he puts the shafts in 180 off lol nevermind the chineese delivery valves and distributor crap.
We should contact someone who is having prothe pump problems and get them to spin the pump sprocket around and see if it doesn't solve the problem..
-
its WAY easy to put these pumps back together 180* out..
the cam plate can be installed in either TDC position, or 180* out of time..
if the little drive pin on the back of the cam plate is not pointing up when the keyway in the shaft is pointing up, then its out of time.
the first pump i ever built, i had it 180* out, but i realised it before i put it all the way back together.
dont feel bad Jer.. siht happens.. ALL THE TIME!
-
its WAY easy to put these pumps back together 180* out..
the cam plate can be installed in either TDC position, or 180* out of time..
dont feel bad Jer.. siht happens.. ALL THE TIME!
Yeah that is what I'm saying though man. lol I know how it goes together, it wasn't my first rodeo ya know?
I do feel bad, he had to go like 2 weeks without a car..
-
IMO, it's easiest to make sure everything is correct by installing the pump top last. When the top is still off, it is very easy to rotate the pump and make sure everything is moving correctly. During that rotation, stop when the keyway of the mainshaft is pointing UP. You can then look at the plunger foot at the same time and see the cutout in it that indexes with the pin in the camplate. This obviously doesn't work if your assembly sequence ends with installing the distributor head and plunger.
The method I will be using from here on out. I do put the lid on last, but never thought to check it that way. Touche :)
-
You know, I wonder if thats why most of prothes pumps do not run, he puts the shafts in 180
Same thought crossed my mind too.
We have always had them double-check for 180* out externally.
I don't think i can remember anyone ever suggesting that one could have been 180* out internally before.
Alleslowbuged deserves 4 bonus cetane points for suggesting that.
Probably possible that has been the problem with a lot or most of the bad pumps we have tried to help folks with from Prothe.
The paper-wad test joins the list of things to check from now on.
-
The paper-wad test joins the list of things to check from now on.
Unfortunately John, this had to be learnt at your expense it seems.. but it was a step in the right direction for future diagnosis.
-
So Mr. Moderator, can we get a short summary of fixing the 180 out problem on the sticky board?
Check delivery of fuel at #1 injector or delivery valve when turning crank. Does fuel flow or does it come out @#4?
Remove belt when at TDC like it should be and turn the IP pulley 180 degrees and lock with the other hole with the pin or socket.
Check for proper keyway and plunger pin alignment by looking through the top of the pump.
What else just occurred here?
Oh, we have one more running car back on the road.
-
I added it to the FAQ quick guide, as well as moving it here to the troubleshooting.
-
Hey keep it up mister we might just keep you around.
And that raise you wanted. Well, talk to the fan club.
Thanks. Seems like that is the Achilles Heal of these engines. Such a simple thing to fix if you know what is going on inside, you won't be fooled buy the external signals.
Like the Glow plug light.
Means something but what is it really telling you.
-
What is the correct orientation of the woodruff key? I swapped a 1.6 NA pump for a 1.6td pump but now it's not starting. Timing marks all correct ( Flywheel TDC, cam locked, IP locked ). IP set at 1.10 and it sputtered like it want to start but doesn't. Not too much smoke either. My woodruff key currently point towards the back of the vehicle. Is right or wrong?
-
With the nut off the IP the key should be pointed at about the 10 Oclock position Maybe 1030 If it is and you still have the problem the internal piece may be flipped 180 and that is a problem. You can figure out which cylinder is getting fuel by turning the pump over by hand with a wrench. Take the nuts off or loosen them at the back of the pump. Fuel should leak out of the #1 if timed correctly.
-
Thanks for the reply. Sounds like I have it the correct orientation, but will try it IP spocket turned 180 tomorrow. I don't have the history of this pump
-
I would try cracking the nuts off the back of the IP first as that is easier than redoing the timing belt in my opinion. Maybe you like the practice?
-
I did take off the lines to take a look. Everything is correct but my 1.6td IP is bad. No fuel for #3 and very little for the other cylinders. Probably a gummed up IP. Put back the 1.6 NA pump and the engine runs fine
-
So I'm going to just post here.
I installed a Giles pump I've had for many years and just never used. I timed it to 1.05 and adjusted the belt. It all looked beautiful. Started up and ran (not fantastic) after i bled the system. Then the linkage on the back side (next to the #1 injector) fell apart (not loctited) I finally re assembling that with the pump installed. Now it wont start without quarter throttle. When it does I'm getting blueish white smoke and won't make more then 2600rpm.
I'm going to pick up clear in and out lines this morning.
I'll also re time it just for piece of mind.
Any other ideas where to look? It honestly runs like my friends 87 gti with the plug wires mixed up.
-
Some IPs can be 180 out, but not likely one from Giles.
Air in the lines can cause that symptom. That is step one.
-
That's pretty much what I thought too. But I also didn't think the linkage would fall apart either.