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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Smokey Eddy on September 25, 2009, 07:14:42 am
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I have a switch in the dash that triggers a relay in the engine bay that gives power to my 4 fuses that then power the 4 glow plugs.
I haven't had any issues with this set up but i know a lot of people add a solenoid into the equation. Why is this? is it necessary? I guess obviously not because my set up doesn't have one but what is the benifit? cutting the wait time down?
If i wait 5-7 seconds she fires up right quick. Anyone have experience with going non-solenoid to solenoid?
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A solenoid is sometimes used to denote a heavy duty relay. If your relay is sufficient to carry the current, that's all you need. You do not need 4 fuses. One big fuse will do.
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I think he means 4 individual fuses to each of the glow plugs.
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"solenoid" = "relay"... just really heavy duty.
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"solenoid" = "relay"... just really heavy duty.
Yeah, a solenoid is designed to carry hundreds of amps, a relay could be anything from a few milli-amps to thousands of amps. So, it depends on what your "relay" is designed to carry. Worst case, you wear out the contacts and need to replace it at some point. Best case, it is rated for more than 60 amps and you'll never have a problem.
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You do not need 4 fuses. One big fuse will do.
Either will work... the advantages of 4 separate fuses include:
- a single bad glow plug doesn't take out the entire system and leave you stranded by blowing the only fuse
- by removing the 4 fuses you can check the current draw/continuity of each glow plug individually while troubleshooting
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Yes I have 4 fuses just like Vince's method. (which is genius by the way. The not killing all GP's alone makes it worth it not to mention the joy of having a loose lead to test the cont. of each plug.)
My relay is rated for 50 amps and i'm using four 15 amp fuses in a fuse box.
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My own "pimped" method (and the one going in Tim's Dasher, too) still uses the stock relay to retain coolant temp-dependent glow timing. The key switch trips the stock relay, which supplies power to the big mother (My own is an 80-amp 100% duty cycle relay I picked up for free :D), which in turn supplies the individual plugs through four fused leads.
No extra switches, no mega load on the stock, expensive relay, independent testing capacity, and a compact package that I wired up to accept one big bulkhead plug for the under-dash/control side and one big bulkhead plug leading to/from the battery and to the plugs.
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yeah i'd do that if the stock relay wasn't so expensive to replace. That's the best method in my books.
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Yup... my version of pimped is:
- stock relay drives a bigger relay, mounted in the engine compartment so that all the heavy duty current has very short wire runs, but is still timed automatically off of coolant temperature. Stock relay is gonna last forever in this configuration.
- individually fused 10ga wires to each glow plug, for ease of troubleshooting and redundancy from a fuse perspective
- best troubleshooting feature ever: separate LED on the dash that shows actual power to the glowplugs, as opposed to the idiot light on the dash
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Yup... my version of pimped is:
- stock relay drives a bigger relay, mounted in the engine compartment so that all the heavy duty current has very short wire runs, but is still timed automatically off of coolant temperature. Stock relay is gonna last forever in this configuration.
- individually fused 10ga wires to each glow plug, for ease of troubleshooting and redundancy from a fuse perspective
- best troubleshooting feature ever: separate LED on the dash that shows actual power to the glowplugs, as opposed to the idiot light on the dash
I cut and rewired the indicator light, so it now is a proper indicator. With no "water separator" indicator function in a Dasher, I wasn't losing anything by doing this. :D
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- best troubleshooting feature ever: separate LED on the dash that shows actual power to the glowplugs, as opposed to the idiot light on the dash
I snagged a Ford starter solenoid from PiknPull, the light in my dash goes out, then after the car is started, you hear a significant 'kachunk' as it disengages ;)
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Yeah I pimped mine too last winter. Everything works good except ever since the install the stock relay clicks on/off real fast for a few seconds before finally going off, not sure why.
My ford solenoid clunks perty loud too :D
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I'm having some extremely rough starts now in the morning...
Glow PLugs?
I cut a length of wire to test continuity to all my glow plugs and they all sparked very nicely!! but my starts are just abysmal. Turns over for like 3 seconds before anything happens, chugs rather unpleasantly and makes a huge amount of grey smoke.
I need to hold the pedal to the floor to get it going... This has been the second day,in a row, i've had to do this.
Fuel?
could it be fueling? Heading down my street in 2nd, 3rd is out of the question, violently lurching unless i giver hell on the pedal and coast to the stop sign. Heaps of white out the pipes.
Timing?
It sounds very very rattly like a tin can full of marbles so im sure it's advanced enough, but maybe it's not? I don't actually have a timing gauge to see what it's at. ... i timed to the marks and then pushed the pump as for to the head as it would go.
Lifters?
I'm still using my old lifters out of the old 1.6 head. But once the oil warms the rattle goes away and runs fine and starts fine. Maybe the cold lifters aren't actuating?
It's been as cold as +6C at night.
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I'm having some extremely rough starts now in the morning...
Timing?
It sounds very very rattly like a tin can full of marbles so im sure it's advanced enough, but maybe it's not? I don't actually have a timing gauge to see what it's at. ... i timed to the marks and then pushed the pump as for to the head as it would go.
Isn't that the sound of too much advance?
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Sorry if this is totaly random....
But why do you re wire the plugs with ur own wiring? What is wrong with the stock system?
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The glowplug system is an important part of the proper operation of our IDI engines and so there's general interest in making sure it's the best it can be.
The stock system is fine and works well but like most designs could always benefit from a re-think. Here's my own view on some areas where the stock system could be better:
* the full amperage of the circuit (50 amps or so) passes thru the firewall and thru the connectors in the fuseblock
* the copper buss bar makes removing the glow plugs a pain since you have to completely remove the 8mm nuts
* the copper buss bar makes troubleshooting a pain since all plugs are connected in parallel
* the 50A fuse is prone to hairline fractures that takes out all your glowplugs
* the glowplug relay itself is *extremely* expensive
* the length and gauge of the factory wiring results in a reasonably significant voltage drop to the glow plugs... I've measured below 9V at the plugs when the battery was delivering 12.5V
I also think folks pimp their glowplugs because they can. ;) It's a simple set of modifications well within the skillset of the average owner.
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I'm having some extremely rough starts now in the morning...
Timing?
It sounds very very rattly like a tin can full of marbles so im sure it's advanced enough, but maybe it's not? I don't actually have a timing gauge to see what it's at. ... i timed to the marks and then pushed the pump as for to the head as it would go.
Isn't that the sound of too much advance?
Yes it is, thats why i said im sure it's advanced enough.
I'm thinking the pump might be filling with air while the car sits over night. The rubber line from the filter to the pump is perishing a little. When i bend it in the creases there are cracks in the rubber.
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Sorry if this is totaly random....
But why do you re wire the plugs with ur own wiring? What is wrong with the stock system?
I did it for the cold weather reliability factor. I hate using ether in an engine,its dangerous for one thing and can cause damage for another. It gets cold here, and having glowplugs that work is important.
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I think it is a very good idea and if for no other reason just to make it easier to troubleshoot each plug and for removal. I just got a new set of Bosch Duraterms with the fast relay but I hooked it up stock just for now and it works fine but I am going to do this modifiation. I was just too damn lazy to go get the heavier wire even though I know the time it takes just to put those little 8 m/m nuts on takes 2 times longer than it would have taken to go get the wire. I still have to get it and do the mod anyway. It really is a good idea and will definately help in a lot of ways. Plus you can almost rest assured when you turn the key on and hear the solenoid click that there is current going to the plugs unless for some reason one of the fuses is blown but you still have the others. Very good idea :)
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Sorry if this is totaly random....
But why do you re wire the plugs with ur own wiring? What is wrong with the stock system?
For stock situations, to each their own. but in my case, where I swapped a diesel motor into a gasser chassis, it relieves a person of having to get all the relay, fuse panel, and whatever other associated stuff. vinces recipe is top notch in my opinion. only time it failed was when it was MY fault, using a toggle switch instead of a push button (fried my solenoid ;D). couldn't remember which position was on and I paid the 13 dollar price. I wish I had 3 thumbs so I could give another thumbs up.
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Sorry if this is totaly random....
But why do you re wire the plugs with ur own wiring? What is wrong with the stock system?
For stock situations, to each their own. but in my case, where I swapped a diesel motor into a gasser chassis, it relieves a person of having to get all the relay, fuse panel, and whatever other associated stuff. vinces recipe is top notch in my opinion. only time it failed was when it was MY fault, using a toggle switch instead of a push button (fried my solenoid ;D). couldn't remember which position was on and I paid the 13 dollar price. I wish I had 3 thumbs so I could give another thumbs up.
Where can a person get a spring loaded toggle switch that goes to off when you let it go? I can't find one of those things anywhere.
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Sorry if this is totaly random....
But why do you re wire the plugs with ur own wiring? What is wrong with the stock system?
For stock situations, to each their own. but in my case, where I swapped a diesel motor into a gasser chassis, it relieves a person of having to get all the relay, fuse panel, and whatever other associated stuff. vinces recipe is top notch in my opinion. only time it failed was when it was MY fault, using a toggle switch instead of a push button (fried my solenoid ;D). couldn't remember which position was on and I paid the 13 dollar price. I wish I had 3 thumbs so I could give another thumbs up.
Where can a person get a spring loaded toggle switch that goes to off when you let it go? I can't find one of those things anywhere.
here is a push button switch for you
http://www.ace4parts.com/Products/Automotive-Push-Button-Switch-50A--at--12VDC%28Momentary%29__30-12475.aspx
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Yes it is, thats why i said im sure it's advanced enough.
I'm thinking the pump might be filling with air while the car sits over night. The rubber line from the filter to the pump is perishing a little. When i bend it in the creases there are cracks in the rubber.
well replacing that seems to be imminent, however have you checked your water separator and the rest of your fuel system? I had a bunk separator that caused grief.
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Where can a person get a spring loaded toggle switch that goes to off when you let it go? I can't find one of those things anywhere.
You want a "momentary" contact toggle switch. I've had good luck finding those at NAPA. What I'm looking for now is a momentary-off-on three position toggle, and nobody wants to sell me one. :(
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have you tried a supplier for instrumentation? I've seen them in control panels in the paper industry.
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Ed i think your problem was caused by you doing way too many 2nd gear WOT burnouts :P lol
take your lines off your filter and run the car of a jerry can making sure the lines are submerged in fuel, if it runs good in the morning you know you got bad lines that are leaking air :) lol
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I like the flip-up red plastic cover on my dash switch, plus an indicator light. I haven't left it on yet. But then again I also just got a new relay so I won't have to use it as much anymore, which is also a good reason to have the spring loaded plastic cover on that switch...
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Thanks 8v-of-fury and libbybapa! those lines to the filter are due for a change anyways and i'll test out the cold lever deal tomorrow morning.
But will too much advance give the really bad driving conditions i described?
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I'm having some extremely rough starts now in the morning...
Timing?
It sounds very very rattly like a tin can full of marbles so im sure it's advanced enough, but maybe it's not? I don't actually have a timing gauge to see what it's at. ... i timed to the marks and then pushed the pump as for to the head as it would go.
Isn't that the sound of too much advance?
Yes it is, thats why i said im sure it's advanced enough.
I'm thinking the pump might be filling with air while the car sits over night. The rubber line from the filter to the pump is perishing a little. When i bend it in the creases there are cracks in the rubber.
If it is too advanced it will be very hard to start. Often you can tell by the effect of the cold start lever. If it is harder to start with the cold start lever pulled, then the pump is too advanced.
That was kinda where I was headed, that it was too far advanced.
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I'm having some extremely rough starts now in the morning...
Timing?
It sounds very very rattly like a tin can full of marbles so im sure it's advanced enough, but maybe it's not? I don't actually have a timing gauge to see what it's at. ... i timed to the marks and then pushed the pump as for to the head as it would go.
Isn't that the sound of too much advance?
Yes it is, thats why i said im sure it's advanced enough.
I'm thinking the pump might be filling with air while the car sits over night. The rubber line from the filter to the pump is perishing a little. When i bend it in the creases there are cracks in the rubber.
If it is too advanced it will be very hard to start. Often you can tell by the effect of the cold start lever. If it is harder to start with the cold start lever pulled, then the pump is too advanced.
That was kinda where I was headed, that it was too far advanced.
Again, would that explain the really rough driving while it's still cold? Remember, it didn't always do this. This issue came on very suddenly. Over the course of 48 hrs. Maybe it's a combination of air in the pump and timing advance?
I listened to it run in my garage very carefully. It sounds like there is something metal, loose, banging. But there obviously isn't (unless its a valve?! ???)
I listened to every injector with a screwdriver and the far left injector, which leaks diesel out a return nipple, was a loud and deep sound and the injectors sounded progressively more high pitched and quieter as i went left to right.
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Where can a person get a spring loaded toggle switch that goes to off when you let it go? I can't find one of those things anywhere.
As an idea, I used an old blank and hacked off the back 4mm to make a bushing for a power window switch to slide into, that whole assembly went in the dash :)
(http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4268/hpim1894.jpg)
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you should time it. when my engine rattled the most, is when it ran its worst. now that i have it timed more properly, it is so quiet. it rattles so much compared to my audi.
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Where can a person get a spring loaded toggle switch that goes to off when you let it go? I can't find one of those things anywhere.
As an idea, I used an old blank and hacked off the back 4mm to make a bushing for a power window switch to slide into, that whole assembly went in the dash :)
(http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4268/hpim1894.jpg)
Did you make your own heated seats?!?!?
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looks like ejector seats to me!
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far left switch :P
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far left switch :P
So what are the other two? Ejection seats and prop turnover? :D
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Ya! :D :P
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Ya! :D :P
Contact! :D
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So do you use 2 10G shotgun blanks like the old Wasp radials?
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So do you use 2 10G shotgun blanks like the old Wasp radials?
... I so want a shotgun-start diesel now. >:( :( ;D
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Hi everyone, bumping this old thread.
I'm doing the pimped glow plug mod as part of my Giles IP upgrade and want to add the glow plug LED indicator on the dash.
Anyone have additional information or pics of the circuit/wiring needed to add the LED up to the dash? Vince's article does not have much info about this mod. Thanks!
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For an absolutely simple install just get a dash mount indicator light from an auto parts store. Connect it to the power supply to your fuse block. Done!
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OK. I feel silly. Absolutely over thinking this. It is really simple.
Just a line from the switched side of the solenoid and a ground. Duh!
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I have been reading and reading, but I still have a question about the pimping via Vince's design:
Power comes from Battery => in cab thru fire wall => relay terminal 30 (always on)
Switch closes
Power leaves the relay via terminal 87 => out thru fire wall => thru 50amp VW fuse => added solenoid => added fuses => each GP.
Please help me understand this...
The direct power supply to each GP has been truncated from going from battery to OEM relay to GP, BUT isn't 50ish amps still going to OEM relay and back out to solenoid power switch supply?
That being said, The other question I have is more electrical in nature. When current flows, is it pushed or pulled? i.e. is the battery pushing the current or is the GP pulling the current from the power source? If it is a pull, then does the solenoid only pull enough amps to close the circuit thereby answering my first question?
Thanks
-m
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The direct power supply to each GP has been truncated from going from battery to OEM relay to GP, BUT isn't 50ish amps still going to OEM relay and back out to solenoid power switch supply?
That being said, The other question I have is more electrical in nature. When current flows, is it pushed or pulled? i.e. is the battery pushing the current or is the GP pulling the current from the power source? If it is a pull, then does the solenoid only pull enough amps to close the circuit thereby answering my first question?
Thanks
-m
With the rerouting, '50ish amps' do not still run through the stock glow plug wiring. Only enough amps to latch the stock glow plug relay and enough amps to latch the secondary solenoid pass through the stock wiring. The amperage necessary to latch the stock relay is minuscule. The amps to latch the secondary solenoid is more significant but nowhere near 50 amps. The 50 amps only pass from battery, through high current connections on the secondary solenoid, and to aux fuse box where it is split to the individual 12 amp circuits.
Does electricity push or pull? Both. It is a circuit. The little negatively charged electrons flow FROM the negative terminal TO the positive terminal and all along the circuit they are simultaneously attracted to the positive terminal and repulsed by the negative terminal.