VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Model Specific Questions and Info => MK2 Golf/Jetta and Audi 5k => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on December 06, 2012, 11:17:18 am
-
I am toying with the idea of getting rid of the AC system in my 92 Eco since it makes changing the alt belt such a pita. lmk what you have and how much shipped to 11357.
-
Same bracket. same alternator.
get rid of AC and rotate alternator down.
Figure out how to adjust it. Custom adjuster bar or custom bracket on alternator to work with a normal adjuster bar.
Special double pully lets you use a wider belt.
I posted the whole swap over on vwdieselparts.
-
Same bracket. same alternator.
get rid of AC and rotate alternator down.
Figure out how to adjust it. Custom adjuster bar or custom bracket on alternator to work with a normal adjuster bar.
Special double pully lets you use a wider belt.
I posted the whole swap over on vwdieselparts.
Please post a link of your swap.
-
Try this, pix at bottom... http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7018&p=42317&hilit=alternator+bracket#p42317
-
I wish i had found this months ago.....
-
Fatmobile, where is it that you found this "special double pulley?"
Are these readily available somewhere....or what? Farm store....parts store.....magic fairies????
-
Fatmobile, where is it that you found this "special double pulley?"
Are these readily available somewhere....or what? Farm store....parts store.....magic fairies????
I went to an alt shop and they bust one out and installed and sold me it for a few bucks.
-
Fatmobile, where is it that you found this "special double pulley?"
Are these readily available somewhere....or what? Farm store....parts store.....magic fairies????
I listed the part # and parts catalog it came from in the post tyler linked to.
The pully I used for my swap came from the WAI catalog.
Part # 24-2106, for the 1/2" belt
or 24-2105 for the 10mm belt.
I went to a local alternator/starter shop for mine, heard it's from a ford truck.
-
Fatmobile, where is it that you found this "special double pulley?"
Are these readily available somewhere....or what? Farm store....parts store.....magic fairies????
I listed the part # and parts catalog it came from in the post tyler linked to.
The pully I used for my swap came from the WAI catalog.
Part # 24-2106, for the 1/2" belt
or 24-2105 for the 10mm belt.
I went to a local alternator/starter shop for mine, heard it's from a ford truck.
What do you think is less work?
1. Modify the brackets of an AC setup as you have done.
or
2. Buy brackets from a non AC setup and do a swap?
You gave p/n for 10 mm and 1/2 double pulleys. Which one did you use and which do you recommend and did you have to change the crankshaft pulley also?
-
Buying brackets is the easy way to go - but not the cheapest. I got mine from a 1978 rabbit without AC, guy shipped the brackets and alternator to me for $120 total. I bought a 1985 golf that had the non AC setup soon after that and did the swap to my other car. I see these on vortex every now and then.
-
Fatmobile, where is it that you found this "special double pulley?"
Are these readily available somewhere....or what? Farm store....parts store.....magic fairies????
I listed the part # and parts catalog it came from in the post tyler linked to.
The pully I used for my swap came from the WAI catalog.
Part # 24-2106, for the 1/2" belt
or 24-2105 for the 10mm belt.
I went to a local alternator/starter shop for mine, heard it's from a ford truck.
What do you think is less work?
1. Modify the brackets of an AC setup as you have done.
or
2. Buy brackets from a non AC setup and do a swap?
You gave p/n for 10 mm and 1/2 double pulleys. Which one did you use and which do you recommend and did you have to change the crankshaft pulley also?
Since we are dealing with a MK2, the main cast bracket is the same, AC or not.
non-AC setups are 65 amps, I prefer the 90 amp AC alternators.
I used the 1/2", did you rear the post tyler linked to?
-
...................................
Since we are dealing with a MK2, the main cast bracket is the same, AC or not.
non-AC setups are 65 amps, I prefer the 90 amp AC alternators.
I used the 1/2", did you rear the post tyler linked to?
Thanks for the info! I have never seen a non AC MK2 setup and was under the impression that non AC MK2's had a different bracket and had the alternator mounted down low as in a MK1 non AC setup such as my 81 Caddy.
I also didn't know that MK2 with AC has a 90 A alternator. I agree a 90A
is more desirable.
I did read your post Tyler linked to but I guess not well enough.
-
yeah the non ac goes down low and the ac one goes up top and i think thats where lots of cars have a problem with the mounts and wallowing out mounting holes. every car i have come across in the junkyard like that had nasty looking cocked and jerry rigged alternator mounts.
i need to research myself if you can put the guts from an ac alternator into the casing of a non ac alternator?
i have my own issues with mk2 mount in mk1 right now with a mk2 radiator. might not have been a good idea for me to put big radiator in but its what i could get at the time. non ac alt is in right now but i think the ac casings have holes flipped around.
-
fatmobile, did you do the grinding of the AC bracket installed in the engine or removed? I really like what you did going to 1/2 belt with the double pulley. Did that eliminate belt stretch, squealing, and frequent belt tension adjustment? What length belt is needed and does the belt flop or is it steady?
-
That double alt pulley might also be the same as on a Mercedes Turbodiesel 81-85. I have essentially the same Bosch alt on mine and I have swapped pulleys around on some of them.
-
That double alt pulley might also be the same as on a Mercedes Turbodiesel 81-85. I have essentially the same Bosch alt on mine and I have swapped pulleys around on some of them.
Have you used the Mercedes double pulley in idi VW's? Is the Mercedes double pulley 1/2"? Is the diameter the same as the VW pulley?
-
No, but I have used a VW pulley on a MB and it worked OK, so it should work the other way
-
fatmobile, did you do the grinding of the AC bracket installed in the engine or removed? I really like what you did going to 1/2 belt with the double pulley. Did that eliminate belt stretch, squealing, and frequent belt tension adjustment? What length belt is needed and does the belt flop or is it steady?
The grinding was done before the bracket was installed.
This setup moves the alternator toward the passenger side so makes more radiator space for the MK1.
It also uses a fatter pivot bolt than the A1 so the alternator pivot hole doesn't wallow out causing the alternator to tip.
I didn't have much belt squeal with the stock MK1 non-AC setup, with the 10mm belt.
Of course it's better than the MK2 AC setup as far as adjustment and squealing.
I meant to post the belt length in the other post I'll see if I did.
The grinding of the bracket allows the alternator to go down pretty far so the belt isn't real long. No long stretches of belt so the flapping is limited.
-
I really like the turnbuckle adjustment in this post and may copy his idea.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7018&hilit=alternator+bracket&sid=49784262d1ffa267c84950d4668cea93&start=30
(http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/117/b22962b003d644068eee183fdf165362/l.jpg)
-
Looks like you need to remove 3/8th inch of material off the alternator mounting material (toward center of engine) provided you have the same shaft/pulley length.....according to my measurements here at home. I like this as I have several of these nice Motorolas which need a job AND you can easily switch back to the original at any time with no permanently cobbled-up components.
-
yeah, sometimes I am a turd blossom. It was easy enough for me so it must be ok for everyone else too.
-
Looks like you need to remove 3/8th inch of material off the alternator mounting material (toward center of engine) provided you have the same shaft/pulley length.....according to my measurements here at home. I like this as I have several of these nice Motorolas which need a job AND you can easily switch back to the original at any time with no permanently cobbled-up components.
3/8 is a lot of material to remove! Just have to be careful not weakening the bracket. I have a spare Eco engine with AC that I've been mocking up fitting the bracket and 90 A alternator. I did a bunch of grinding on both the alt and the bracket to drop the alternator down far enough to barely get the stock 13 x 947 AC belt on- pic . I think I am gonna skip the grinding on the bracket on my 92 Eco and just use a longer belt. (note: the IP has to come off to get the AC bracket off)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20121214_161734.jpg)
-
yeah, sometimes I am a turd blossom. It was easy enough for me so it must be ok for everyone else too.
The turnbuckle is not that stiff and does not act as a structural support for the alternator like the top bar that mounts the alternator to the cyl head. Do you see that as a problem?
-
The 3/8" removed was because of the pulley alignment not for adjustment. The way I put the turnbuckle on I think it is just as stout as the stock arm. Lasted 40,000 miles *with my old GTI belt that had at least 45 thousand on the belt* and I never adjusted it one time...I think it did ok.
-
The 3/8" removed was because of the pulley alignment not for adjustment. The way I put the turnbuckle on I think it is just as stout as the stock arm. Lasted 40,000 miles *with my old GTI belt that had at least 45 thousand on the belt* and I never adjusted it one time...I think it did ok.
With the double pulley, I took out all the spacer shims on the alternator and had perfect alignment of the pulleys. I went to a Home Depot and they didn't have any turnbuckles. I remember buying an aluminum hex body type turnbuckle from a different Home Depot before. Searching their online catalog, the open frame type is all they have.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=turnbuckle&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=Search+All#/?c=1&browsestoreoption=0
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20121214_161817.jpg)
-
Lowes has them for sure i just bought one 2 weeks ago.
-
Clarification: the 3/8 inch material comes out of the front hemisphere aluminum of the alternator.
-
Clarification: the 3/8 inch material comes out of the front hemisphere aluminum of the alternator.
Is this 3/8 inch in a different area theman is refering to? His 3/8 inch shifts the alternator for pulley alignment so the alternator mount/ hinge boss must be ground down/shortened.
-
I did a similar mod using a 90 amp alt and threaded end links from McMaster Carr. It adjusted from the top. It's been a while, so the details are hazy, but I know I used a non ac bracket.
You can kind of see it in this pic.
-Todd
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/vwshipley/DSCN1804.jpg)
-
ToddA1, that 's a nice setup and clean engine bay!
I got my mock up of the turnbuckle adjuster done on the spare engine. I used a 5/16 turnbuckle and a 957 mm long belt (10 mm longer than the stock belt). I had to shorten the turnbuckle by about 1/4 inch since it was too long for the 957 mm belt (would not have been necessary if I had a longer belt, store didn't have a 967 mm). I did the lower turnbuckle eye mount a little differently than theman53 (he made a plate) since it was a little bit less fab work with what's available to me. Pics are self explanatory I think.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20121218_144206.jpg)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20121218_141829.jpg)
-
Looks good, but I don't see a jam nut on the turnbuckle. What's to keep it from self adjusting through vibration?
-Todd
-
Looks good, but I don't see a jam nut on the turnbuckle. What's to keep it from self adjusting through vibration?
-Todd
Do turnbuckles self adjust? themans53, did you use a jam nut? I can add one easy enough.
-
jamb nut is pretty important, unless you feel like re-adjusting your alt every few days..
-
I had jam nuts on mine. You can see them in the first pic. I also used washers underneath. Sadly, I forgot to tighten them and found after IDK somewhere around 25,000 miles *when I was putting the IC in* that they were loose. I never had to readjust the alt though. I snugged up those jam nuts and ran it until the engine blew right at 40,000 total miles, again with no adjustment to the turnbuckle.
-
I removed the alternator adjust bracket and AC compressor from my 92 Eco. Not a fun job since a lot of bolts are hidden. That's gotta be on the top of my list for bad design!
Anyway the new belt drive/ adjust system is in and seems to be OK, I won't know for sure till I put some miles on it. Adjusting belt tension is simple in comparison. Another thing I notice is the battery light goes off immediately upon engine start. That has never happened before IIRCC. This says the old belt sysstem was slipping at every engine start which is not a good thing (belt glaze and wear). No wonder it required constant adjustment till it runs out of adjustment and then a new belt.
Changing the alternator belt is now a 10 minute job instead of a few hours. I would like to have working AC someday if I can come up with a belt system that won't slip, easy to adjust and change. Until then, this is a big relief not having anymore alternator belt problems.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20121219_163708.jpg)
-
I had jam nuts on mine. You can see them in the first pic. I also used washers underneath. Sadly, I forgot to tighten them and found after IDK somewhere around 25,000 miles *when I was putting the IC in* that they were loose. I never had to readjust the alt though. I snugged up those jam nuts and ran it until the engine blew right at 40,000 total miles, again with no adjustment to the turnbuckle.
So you had jam nuts but did not tighten them and it did not self adjust itself loose in 25k miles?
-
Yes, I had them, but I forgot to tighten them. I saw my washers sitting there with no nut on them and got to thinking back almost a year and remembered then I was going to and never did. It did not only not loosen in 25,000 I did tighten them up without retensioning the turnbuckle and it went to 40,000 when the engine ate the precup.
-
Yes, I had them, but I forgot to tighten them. I saw my washers sitting there with no nut on them and got to thinking back almost a year and remembered then I was going to and never did. It did not only not loosen in 25,000 I did tighten them up without retensioning the turnbuckle and it went to 40,000 when the engine ate the precup.
Your experience indicate that jam nuts are not really necessary, at least in this application. My turnbuckle came without jam nuts as bought. Maybe with a left hand and a right hand thread in a turnbuckle, it does not self adjust?
I had no room to add jam nuts on mine since I had it maxed to the shortest length in order to install it. I marked the hex with a dab of paint so I can see easily if it adjusted itself. If it moves, I can always add a dab of epoxy.
-
I guess if you keep your eye on it you'll be fine.
I know for a fact that my set up would always self adjust but maybe it was because I was using an actual rod link set up (both right and left threads) or the fact that mine adjusted from the top. Who knows.
-Todd
-
Todd, When yours self adjusted, did it tighten or loosen the belt?
-
Loosen.
-Todd
-
Loosen.
-Todd
thats what i was thinking..
actual turn buckles will self adjust with those vibrations..
-
I've got a couple of hundred miles on it and it's doing fine. Belt hasn't loosened and no flops. One good way to tell if your belt tension is tight enough is: the fan should not be able to be turned by hand relative to the pulley. If it turns, it is slipping.
When I started this project, I started grinding both the alternator and the AC bracket (on my spare Eco engine) for mock-up. Now that I am done, I now realize that no grinding is necessary unless you want to use the stock 13 x 947 AC belt (which I am not sure if it is possible without taking too much metal off). Just use a longer belt!
Fatmobile, what was your reason to do all that grinding?
-
I've got a couple of hundred miles on it and it's doing fine. Belt hasn't loosened and no flops. One good way to tell if your belt tension is tight enough is: the fan should not be able to be turned by hand relative to the pulley. If it turns, it is slipping.
When I started this project, I started grinding both the alternator and the AC bracket (on my spare Eco engine) for mock-up. Now that I am done, I now realize that no grinding is necessary unless you want to use the stock 13 x 947 AC belt (which I am not sure if it is possible without taking too much metal off). Just use a longer belt!
Fatmobile, what was your reason to do all that grinding?
at some point in time on the hillbilly forum I remember it being to use the shortest belt possible. I used a gates 13x965 I think those gates belts are beastly I doubt one would ever wear out one of these setups if it was always tightened up and kept up with.
-
I've got a couple of hundred miles on it and it's doing fine. Belt hasn't loosened and no flops. One good way to tell if your belt tension is tight enough is: the fan should not be able to be turned by hand relative to the pulley. If it turns, it is slipping.
When I started this project, I started grinding both the alternator and the AC bracket (on my spare Eco engine) for mock-up. Now that I am done, I now realize that no grinding is necessary unless you want to use the stock 13 x 947 AC belt (which I am not sure if it is possible without taking too much metal off). Just use a longer belt!
Fatmobile, what was your reason to do all that grinding?
at some point in time on the hillbilly forum I remember it being to use the shortest belt possible. I used a gates 13x965 I think those gates belts are beastly I doubt one would ever wear out one of these setups if it was always tightened up and kept up with.
most VW pulleys are 10mm tho..
13mm belt in a 10mm pulley is less than stellar..
-
I've got a couple of hundred miles on it and it's doing fine. Belt hasn't loosened and no flops. One good way to tell if your belt tension is tight enough is: the fan should not be able to be turned by hand relative to the pulley. If it turns, it is slipping.
When I started this project, I started grinding both the alternator and the AC bracket (on my spare Eco engine) for mock-up. Now that I am done, I now realize that no grinding is necessary unless you want to use the stock 13 x 947 AC belt (which I am not sure if it is possible without taking too much metal off). Just use a longer belt!
Fatmobile, what was your reason to do all that grinding?
at some point in time on the hillbilly forum I remember it being to use the shortest belt possible. I used a gates 13x965 I think those gates belts are beastly I doubt one would ever wear out one of these setups if it was always tightened up and kept up with.
most VW pulleys are 10mm tho..
13mm belt in a 10mm pulley is less than stellar..
The pulley I used was bigger probably cuz the belt fit a bit deeper than stock. Not perfect but as long as the things spins and charges I'm ok with it
-
This setup worked great until last week, when I heard the belt squealing. Turned out the upper turnbuckle bolt was missing! Maybe I didn't torque it down good enough? While I put in a new bolt (with 2 nuts to lock it this time round), I took the opportunity to replace the alternator with a low miles spare and it took less than 15 minutes start to finish! When I had the AC compressor with the stock tensioning setup it would have taken a good part of a day! I am glad I made this mod.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20121218_144206.jpg)
-
It would be easy to keep the locknuts in place by drilling them for safety wire. And nothing moves after that. Looks cool, too.
-
It would be easy to keep the locknuts in place by drilling them for safety wire. And nothing moves after that. Looks cool, too.
Like every bolt on a commercial aircraft! Great idea.
-
Fatmobile, what was your reason to do all that grinding?
Like mentioned I wanted the shortest belt possible,.. just happened to end up with the stock AC belt fitting best.
Glad to see this is working out so well for everyone mine has been working great for years.
-
Fatmobile, what was your reason to do all that grinding?
Like mentioned I wanted the shortest belt possible,.. just happened to end up with the stock AC belt fitting best.
Glad to see this is working out so well for everyone mine has been working great for years.
I found out after grinding that it was not necessary if you use a slightly longer belt. ::)
The turnbuckle tensioner failed on me a few months ago. I was a bit skeptical of it being aluminum with 2 loose fitting threads. Sure enough the threads in the aluminum all stripped and the belt squealed. I made a tensioner out of angle iron and a bolt. Nice and simple and easy to adjust. Should have done that in the first place instead of the mickey mouse turnbuckle.
It's been fine for a few months without needing adjustment but only extended time will tell.
-
I know I'm digging this one out of the vaults, but this seems to be the most comprehensive thread on the subject and I thought I'd add some numbers... maybe this is worth adding to the FAQ even?
Just finished pulling the A/C compressor out of the mix on an otherwise stock 1.6n/a mk1. This was a forced issue after one of the a/c compressor pivot bolts snapped off in the bracket. I've been wanting to ditch it properly for years, but of course don't have the parts handy when the bolt broke, and need the car back on the road asap.
Picked up the double pulley that is referenced here, easy-peasy swap with the stock alt pulley. As stated, the new pulley does NOT have a woodruff key, so hopefully it won't slip. With the new pulley on the stock a/c alt, mounted in the stock position on the stock bracket, the belt grooves lined up perfectly and the stock alt tensioner reaches fine. After many, many trips to NAPA, the belt you need for this swap on a mk1 is NAPA XL 25-9455 (made by Gates). I had originally bought the belt that Toywagen sells with his pulley (17415... cross references to Napa 25-9415), which was much too small. 25-9451 *almost* fits, but not. 25-9455 fits perfectly--it's at the far end of the stock tensioner when installed (in fact I had to slip the belt into the groove before putting the pivot bolt in the alt) so there's plenty of room to take up wear. I don't know why the toywagen belt wouldn't fit, unless his pulley happens to be much smaller.
Hope it works. Maybe one day I'll get the "right" brackets and alt and swap it during a timing belt change, but for anyone looking for a quick easy way to solve the issue on an a/c mk1, you can be back on the road quickly this way. The a/c bracketry is bolted in under the IP, so swapping them is a lot more involved.
Luke
-
what about using the aba later model kit ?
it's pricey thou