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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: speedy on March 07, 2006, 10:37:30 pm
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I am trying to decide on a 1.6T vs. 1.9NA. I'm hoping someone here can offer me some advice. It's for a VW van, so it will be pushing around some weight. It is also a manual shift so I am concerned about turbo lag. I have more-or-less decided on the 1.6 turbo, but I have to know how bad the lag will be before I go ahead with it.
My Mercedes 2.5T has pretty serious turbo lag - with the automatic tranny it's not too annoying because I can simply keep my foot in it through the shifts. With a manual, I think it might get annoying. I've driven a friend's SVO Mustang and it is a bear to drive around town. Nothing until the turbo spools up, then it knocks your drink out of the cupholder and you have to shift very quickly to keep the boost up. I'm not interested in shifting quickly in my van.
I have also obtained an intercooler from a Thunderbird turbocoupe - will this work well on the 1.6T? It will not be in front of the vehicle so I will have to move air through it via a small but powerful fan. I'm hoping that will work.
This site: http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_enginechange.html says that I can gain 22hp and 27lb/ft by adding the intercooler... is this really true? That is a huge percentage gain. If true it will be hard to argue against the 1.6T.
The 1.9NA makes nearly the same hp and torque as the 1.6T. The 1.9 costs more, is harder to find parts for (presumably) but is less complex (and therefore more reliable) and will not suffer from turbo lag. Did I mention I hate turbo lag? If I go with the 1.6T is there any way to reduce the lag?
I am getting ready to spend nearly $2000 for a used turbo 1.6 engine from Europe (supposedly ~40K miles). If I am about to make a mistake, please tell me! All advice welcomed/appreciated.
Thanks,
-David
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Go turbo for sure. Even if you go 1.9, go turbo.
There is significant turbo lag. Far, far more noticable in the larger vehicle than in a golf/jetta/quantum. If you use a 1.6TD then use the K14 from an ECOdiesel (91-92) or from a 1.9AAZ. My TD camper has been OOC for a while with tranny trouble. When I finally get a round tuit and get the van up and running again, I will be retrofitting a VNT-15 from a TDI for instant boost and lots of it.
I have the 5-speed tranny. 1st and 2nd are slow. 3rd and up, you are in boost instantly. I enjoy the manual, but look forward to the VNT.
Hmmm... I will have to read up on the VNT turbos. I take it the swap is not straightforward. My van is strictly a Fahrvergnugen vehicle - I drive it for pleasure only and anything that detracts from the pleasure (like turbo lag) is a disadvantage. Of course it's sure to be offset by the smile on my face when the boost eventually gets there, and just being able to say I have a turbo-bus. I will have to stew over this some more.
There is an Eco-diesel on E-bay right now, but I'm sure it will sell for lots more than I can afford... and I could never steal the motor from such a nice car.
I used a SAAB 900 (notice only 2 zero's) in the driver's side taillight area and added an air scoop on the side of the van there a la Mad Max.
That's cool but I'm into the sleeper look - I want it to appear stock.
The intercooler dropped max EGT's by 150 deg. And then I brought them right back up by increasing the fueling. If you simply add an intercooler without increasing the fueling you will not see any hp gain, but it would be better for your motor.
Even with a low mileage motor, I would pull the head and inspect it. That would give you a chance to spend a bit more money on a 1.9 metal headgasket, total seal rings and raceware studs.
Andrew
Roger. I had almost forgotten about the EGT gauge - I will have to get one of those too. Are the rings and studs really necessary? I wasn't planning on running it that hard.
Thanks for the reply,
-David
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How are you going to run the cooling system on a bus with a stock appearance?
Andrew
I am planning on putting one or two small radiators on the left (and right) side of the engine below the scoops, at an angle. I will shroud them and use strong electric fan(s) to get the airflow I need. If that experiment fails, I will get one of the rads that goes on the front of the bus that is disguised as a spare tire.
-David
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Just wanted to post an update. I bought a POS 85 (or is it 84?) Quantum last week with a good TD engine in it, so it looks like I am going TD for sure.
After driving it around the block a few times, I was pleasantly suprised at how much torque it had right off idle and how mild the turbo lag was. I can detect the lag, but it's more like a gentle buildup of power as the revs increase rather than "nothing" under 2500rpm followed by a strong surge in power. The character of it is more akin to a small variable-valve-timing gas engine, with the rpm scaled down of course. Not unpleasant to drive at all. The tach isn't working but the engine seems to run out of steam a little early, maybe 4000rpm. Is this normal?
I am in the process of cleaning the engine, replacing the timing belt, cleaning the garage and prepping the bus for major surgery. That alone will likely take me a couple of months, but I am determined to keep it moving.
Can someone tell me where to measure boost on this engine? There is one vacuum line connected to the turbo but it never seems to get boost or vacuum. There is vacuum at the vacuum pump though. How is the boost regulated? By the slotted set screw on the side of the turbo? How much boost is normal for this engine, and can it be increased at all on a stock engine? I have searched online for the answers to these questions, but I haven't had any luck thus far.
Finally, if anyone needs any parts from the Quantum, let me know and I'll try to help. Any parts except the engine, that is. :-)
-David
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There should be a small line between the intake manifold snout and the injection pump.
Duh - I should have realized that. Sorry for the newbie question. I hooked up the gauge and took another spin. The gauge shows around 9psi when floored and over 2500rpm. Sometimes only 8-8.5psi. Hard to tell exactly because the needle is bouncing around a little bit. Floored it in 5th at 35mph and saw about 3psi before I ran out of road. Definitely does not make the boost at lower RPMs.
Should I adjust the set screw for 10psi?
Thanks,
-David
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I tried to adjust the set screw to bring the boost up to 10psi. The screw was very difficult to turn and I succeeded in snapping off the end of it with my screwdriver. Oh well, guess it will be 9psi for the time being.
I got the garage cleaned up and the bus pulled in. I started stripping the old bus motor today. Got the exhaust removed, rear tin, alternator, A/C compressor, bracketry, air cleaner, engine seal, battery, etc.. Lots more to do. Ten years and 115,000 miles since the rebuild and boy does it show. I will be so glad to get rid of this engine. I am trying to buy a gas tank from a fuel-injected bus which has a return line, rather than use my stock tank which does not have a return line. If I use my stock tank I will have to use one of the vents as a return line and I'd rather not do that.
I was thinking about the oil return line too. I noticed yours (Andrew) is on the drivers side with your factory turbo pan. I was a little concerned at how low in the pan it was (thinking that it would be below oil-level) but I guess if it was good enough for VW it should be good enough for me. I'm going to try and find a shop that can weld in some kind of bung or fitting in the same location on my pan - I'm expecting this to be difficult but it has to be done. If it's too difficult to add the fitting I will try and get a factory TD pan from Europe. I will be using braided stainless hose and AN fittings as I have had good luck with them on my open track car.
-David
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I wonder how he keeps that oil return port from leaking?
I agree with your assessment of the oil return level. I will take another look when the engine is out - maybe it can go on the end of the pan (rear of bus) near the top. Might not have adequate vertical drop though.
I just measured the vanagon diesel bellhousing, it's 5-5/8" thick. Old one is only 4-3/4" thick. Uh oh... maybe there was something to that rumor that I need a different input shaft. I remember the 091 (late aircooled) bellhousing being 1/2" thicker than my 002 bellhousing, or only 3/8" thinner than the vanagon bellhousing. I bet that difference would be in the noise - maybe upgrading my transaxle to an 091 would solve the input shaft problem. I guess I'm getting off topic - sorry...
-David
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73
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Andrew,
I am keeping all possibilities open at this point. However, I don't think I want to do the 15-degree install - not because of clearance at the top of the engine compartment but because of ground clearance beneath the engine. I do not want the oil pan hanging down in the back of the bus, visible from the rear and in the path of whatever I drive over. I will measure to be sure, and if the difference is small (1-2 inches or less) I might end up keeping the upright configuration. KEP does make a conversion plate for the 15-degree install. It would be nice to not have to mess with the wastegate interference/oil drainage problem.
I went to the swap meet this morning and picked up a radiator that I think will be perfect. The guy said it was from a scirocco. It's solid brass/copper with no built-in radiator cap (good because I have to put in an external one anyway). It's 23"x13" which is pretty much the EXACT size I was looking for. If I just trim/bend the brackets slightly it will stand straight up and require only a small amount of weatherstripping to seal it against the side of the engine compartment. Here is approximately where it will be positioned:
(http://motorheads.net/vw/td/rad_install.jpg)
Too perfect for words!
-David
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Yeah, dual Solexes. :oops: Started with them in '88, tried dual 40 Dells for a while, then went back to the Solexes. I probably have the biggest Solex parts collection in the USA. I hated them at first like everyone else, but grew to appreciate them after driving ~120,000 miles with them. Had a few problems but they never left me stranded which is more than I can say for some other carbs.
An engine side starter would be nice since the Vanagon bellhousing precludes the use of the tranny hanger bracket (or at least I think it does, without serious modification). I feel safer with more mounting points. But, like you say I doubt the KEP adapter handles that. In fact I'm sure it doesn't. All their adapter is is a 5/8" slab of aluminum with some holes drilled in it. :wink:
Guess I am going to have to hurry up and pull the TD motor. Too many questions will be unanswered until I do it.
-David
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Got the old 2-liter air-cooled motor out of the bus - it's probably the oiliest engine I have ever worked on, which is embarassing but jeez, trying to stop oil leaks on that engine is like swimming up a waterfall. I will be glad to be done with that.
Got out the tape measure - there is about 24" between the rear edge of the bellhousing and the rear of the engine compartment. I measured the length of the Quantum TD engine and it is only about 19" from the back of the block to the outer edge of the crank pulley. This is great news - I am going to have 5" or more of space at the rear of the engine which will make it very easy to work on.
More pontificating. The Vanagon diesel bellhousing just isn't going to work. I need five inches of clearance above the top of the transaxle for the top-mounted starter and there ain't anywhere near that much. I would have to cut far into the frame member that supports the bellhousing AND lower the entire motor/tranny assembly another inch or two for it to fit. I don't want to do that. In addition, the vanagon bellhousing HAS NO provisions for mounting so I would have to fab up something custom. I thought about just not having any support at the bellhousing (relying on just the engine mounts and front tranny mount for everything) but I don't think that's enough. The front tranny mount is not as beefy as the one on the Vanagon and I don't trust it to hold that much weight.
Fortunately there is KEP. I called and Mr. Kennedy himself answered the phone. Real nice guy and knows his stuff. I am going to order the conversion kit with the 228mm flywheel. This will require me to buy a new starter and clutch kit but it will solve the bellhousing mount and starter problem (it uses the stock bellhousing and starter location). It also solves my clutch cable problem and I will get a stronger clutch. The KEP adapter plate is drilled for three orientations which will give me some flexibility, though I am pretty much sold on the 50-degree orientation. I have found an 091 bellhousing (more-or-less required for the 228mm clutch) so I am on my way. With luck I should have all of the pieces by late next week.
Andrew, I think you may be on to something with the Quantum engine mounts. The stock "moustache bar" engine carrier looks like it can easily be redrilled and moved forward as far as I like. Hopefully it won't be too difficult to adapt the Quantum mounts to the bar. If I do that, I will be reselling almost everything I bought in that conversion kit! Only things I'll be using are the 50-degree oil pan, oil filler tube and oil pickup. I won't need the Vanagon diesel bellhousing, flywheel and engine mounting bars. Oh well, if it works it will be worth it.
Kennedy has thought about the transaxle input shaft length issue. He said the bus input shaft will actually bottom out in the rabbit engine and that they include instructions for cutting off about 3/4" of the bus input shaft to make it work. I'm not scared of this because I have an angle grinder and an extra 002 input shaft in my parts collection. Booyah!
I also have an FI gas tank lined up (has a return line, my '73 tank does not). I will get that in two weeks and swap it out. In the meantime I will be cleaning up the engine compartment and replacing gaskets/timing belt on the 1.6TD engine.
The Scirocco radiator is at the shop being gone over - I pick it up on Monday. Still need a kick-ass fan for it, such as a Black Magic or similar. No fans with 18-gauge wiring need apply. I will check out the stock Scirocco fans too, maybe they will be good enough.
I found a guy who can weld aluminum - he says he welds on oil pans for bigrig trucks all the time and can weld a fitting into my pan no problem as long as the fitting is aluminum of course. I think I'm going to buy a male AN-8 fitting and have him weld it into the pan. Anyone see a reason why this wouldn't work?
-David
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you should make up a heat shield so that the radiator heat doesn't get into the engine bay, have the heatshield so there is an intake and exhaust you know, that'd be cool
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ya know...alot of mustang guys have been picking up ford taurus fans at the j/y and using them. The pull a bunch of air, are cheap , real narrow to solve fitment problems and because they were put into a Taurus they will NEVER run out at the j/y. Now they are about 18" tall so Im wondering is a Tempo or Escort fan might be a better size. Like the Taurus they are a main stay of the auto recycling industrty.
And if one goes bad...go back and buy another for 5 bucks. Ive seen more then a few black magic fans replaced with one of these when the B/M takes a vacation.
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you should make up a heat shield so that the radiator heat doesn't get into the engine bay, have the heatshield so there is an intake and exhaust you know, that'd be cool
Yeah, that would be cool - literally! Once the engine is in I will look for an obvious place to duct the air out, but if there isn't one I will probably just let the hot air go through the engine compartment. My reasoning was that that's how most water-cooled cars work - the radiator exhaust blows directly back onto the engine.
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ya know...alot of mustang guys have been picking up ford taurus fans at the j/y and using them. The pull a bunch of air, are cheap , real narrow to solve fitment problems and because they were put into a Taurus they will NEVER run out at the j/y. Now they are about 18" tall so Im wondering is a Tempo or Escort fan might be a better size. Like the Taurus they are a main stay of the auto recycling industrty.
And if one goes bad...go back and buy another for 5 bucks. Ive seen more then a few black magic fans replaced with one of these when the B/M takes a vacation.
Funny you should mention that - I'm a Mustang guy also. Most of my friends and I have used the Lincoln Mark-VIII fan in our cars with good results. It pulls something like 2700CFM, draws 21 amps continuously and ~80 amps at startup. Requires an alternator upgrade. :shock: The main problem with that and the Taurus fans is that they are way too tall. The Scirocco rad is only 13" tall which really limits my fan selection. I did find this online though:
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/scirocco-fan.html
Doesn't say how much it costs, I'm guessing at least $200. Probably better than the stock Scirocco fans though. I mentioned the Black Magic because I think it's 14" tall, which is in the ballpark, but again it's pricey and I can appreciate your point about cheap and easy-to-find parts.
The first thing I will try is to adapt the fans from the Quantum, since I already have them. It's a dual fan assembly that looks to be about the right height, but is too wide. I will try cutting/narrowing the shroud to make it fit. It would be nice if that worked because the Quantum has a 2-stage temp sensor that will bolt right into the Scirocco radiator and control the two fans at different temps.
-David
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Yea they the MK8 fan is a bit hard find sometimes so they went to a Tore-ass.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D365&N=700+0&autoview=sku
189.90.. Yep..your guess was pretty much on the spot
I think Ill be checking out some of the other cars with a tape measure to find something else. I like J/y fans...usually alot cheaper to replace. :D
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you need to cool mutangs better? my buddies 95 gt temp gauge barely moves, that thing runs super cool, i like trying to race him with my jetta haha. actually when i raced his cousin who also has a stock 95 gt i could keep up a little bit, he definetly had a big jump off the line but then acceleration evened out on us when i got my boost and my front pumper stayed about even with the back edge of his door. but of course he pulled away then haha, but his car is an automatic
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you need to cool mutangs better? my buddies 95 gt temp gauge barely moves, that thing runs super cool, i like trying to race him with my jetta haha. actually when i raced his cousin who also has a stock 95 gt i could keep up a little bit, he definetly had a big jump off the line but then acceleration evened out on us when i got my boost and my front pumper stayed about even with the back edge of his door. but of course he pulled away then haha, but his car is an automatic
I have a 347 stroker engine and I open-track the car in 100-degree heat here in Texas. So yes, I need all the cooling I can get. :) If you're keeping up with a '95 GT in your car, congrats - you are making some real power!
-David
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like i said though he pulls away once i get into third gear, i'm doing low 16's and thats a 15 second car... definetly not gonna act like i am keeping up with him for very long haha
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I ordered the KEP conversion kit today. He said they have a one-month backlog of orders! D'ohhhhh! :shock:
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I've kept forgetting to mention and now I've remembered. :D You don't have to change fuel tanks. Just tee the return into the single line post filter.
Andrew
I considered that back when I was going to convert the bus to FI. For gasoline, people were saying that if you Teed the return line into the supply line that the fuel would eventually overheat. Now that I think about it, that's probably not an issue for diesel but the deed is already done - I have bought the tank so I might as well swap it now. :roll:
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I got a call from KEP - they have shipped the adapter kit so it should be here in a couple of days. In the meantime, I have removed the old fuel tank and swapped in the 091 bellhousing. I also got in some new parts - a new Sachs 228mm clutch kit, timing belt, oil pan gasket and valve cover gasket. Still haven't pulled the Quantum engine - I need to get going on that.
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The Quantum engine is out, and on an engine stand. Took about three hours, taking pictures and labeling everything. Not too bad. Flywheel is 16lbs - pretty massive for a 1.6L but I understand that it's a diesel thing. Same with the starter, it's big. Won't be able to use either with the conversion.
Problem #1: The passenger side motor mount connects to the bottom of the turbo and the oil drain passage is an integral part of it. WTF? Not sure how I would be able to reclock the turbo if I use that bracket. Probably would have to make something custom. The turbo is a KKK, by the way.
Problem #2: Water pipe coming out the back of the head extends 2", not including the hose. Clearance for that is going to be tight. The back of the turbo is also going to be close to the firewall which could be a major problem. Won't know for sure until I get it in there. Fortunately, the adapter plate will move the engine back a little which should help.
Problem #3: The accessory brackets. A/C compressor and alternator are on the left side of the engine and would be hanging down pretty low. I'd prefer to move them to the other side of the engine. The crank pulley that connects to the A/C is adjusted with shims! That sucks. There doesn't appear to be any adjustment at all for the water pump belt. That sucks too. I'm starting to think of how nice it would be to have a serpentine setup.
Because of problems #1 and #3, I revisited the possibility of mounting the engine in the 15-degree configuration. I took some measurements and lo and behold, it looks like it wouldn't be hanging down much lower than the stock engine after all. It's only about 9" from the crank centerline to the bottom of the oil pan. The stock engine measures the same, give or take an inch. I will take more precise measurements next time I get out there to work on it.
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For problem #2, perhaps you could fab up another flange that turns at a right angle to the block and cuts down that clearance issue. A friend of mine did this with a gasser turbo VW engine he built. I believe since the original spigot was cast alu, he had to make a flange out of stainless.
As for problem #3, are you running A/C? If not, you can probably use the non-shim type crank pulley from another diesel. As far as tensioning, that's normally done by the alternator adjustment (as you probably realize).
I've seen people mount the alternator on the BACK side of the block like you're talking about, but it takes some fabrication work. I'd check places like vwvortex for some photos / more info. For a serpentine setup, you might be able to adapt the VW 2.0 liter (ABA and later engines) or perhaps some 1.8T components to make that work. They both have serpentine belts
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Okay, I work on Vanagons all day every day, would any of you like to see some detail pictures of how VW did it?
If so the next time I get a TD in I will take some pictures for you if they are any use for future Vanagon TD conversions..
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For problem #2, perhaps you could fab up another flange that turns at a right angle to the block and cuts down that clearance issue.
Might be possible to do that, but it will be hard to make it much closer to the block than it already is.
As for problem #3, are you running A/C? If not, you can probably use the non-shim type crank pulley from another diesel. As far as tensioning, that's normally done by the alternator adjustment (as you probably realize).
Yes, I am running A/C. I will probably keep the Quantum compressor for now, since it is already bolted to the engine. There are two belts to get to the alternator. The first one goes from the crankshaft to the A/C compressor - it is adjusted via shims on the crank pulley. The other belt goes from the A/C compressor to the alternator and it is adjusted the regular way, with an adjustable bracket.
Pictures soon.
-David
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Okay, I work on Vanagons all day every day, would any of you like to see some detail pictures of how VW did it?
If so the next time I get a TD in I will take some pictures for you if they are any use for future Vanagon TD conversions..
I'm sure everyone here would love to see some pictures (including me - the more info the better as far as I'm concerned) but many aspects of the Vanagon install will not apply to my '73.
-David
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I am going to go forward the 15-degree install for now. I just took some more accurate measurements and was amazed to find that the stock 2-liter aircooled engine was 8.5 inches from the crankshaft centerline to the bottom of the sump while the same measurement on the 1.6TD engine was only 7.5 inches. Yes, I will actually have MORE ground clearance with the 15 degree install than there was with the stock motor! The 50 degree install would have ridiculous amounts of ground clearance but I don't need that.
Going with the 15-degree install solves all of the following problems:
1. Need to tap oil pan for turbo oil return line
2. Need to reclock turbo for proper drainage
3. Complicates engine mounting due to angle of stock motor mount brackets (would have had to modify them, probably).
4. Alternator and A/C compressor hang down too low, have to move them to the right side of the engine
... and creates a couple of new ones:
1. Potential exhaust clearance issues
2. Valve cover breather interferes with ceiling of engine compartment
3. Less clearance above engine to work
That's likely an improvement, as long as the exhaust doesn't interfere too badly with the firewall.
-David
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The 50 degree (52 think) install is neat in many ways, but has big questionmarks over oil return, turbo drain and even sump oil surge on corners... think you might have chosen the right one.
Problems maybe not unsolvable, but everything has to be spot on to avoid incipient problems - IMHO.
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I put up a web page to document my progress:
http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus
I pulled a lot of what I posted in this forum onto the web page.
Unfortunately, there is major interference between the firewall and the turbo outlet (exhaust side) with the 15-degree installation. I thought about mounting the exhaust manifold upside down but as libbybapa said, there is major interference with the intake - no way that will work.
So, I bought a Jetta TD exhaust manifold on E-Bay today - it looks like it mounts the turbo more towards the center of the engine, which should fix the interference problem and hopefully won't create other problems. I will still have to reclock the turbo but it should be a lot simpler than reclocking it for the 50-degree install.
I'm wondering if the Jetta exhaust manifold will bolt onto the Quantum engine without interfering with other stuff like the intake manifold, egr, etc. Anyone know? Also, what about the engine mount? Does the Jetta connect the engine mount to the turbo like the Quantum does? If so, does anyone have a spare Jetta engine mount for sale?
Thanks,
-David
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Thanks for the info, dieselstink - that is helpful. I'm not too concerned with the turbo interfering with the A/C compressor since I will most likely relocate the compressor anyway.
Can anyone tell me *why* the Quantum has the engine mount connected to the turbo? Is it to support the turbo? To strengthen the engine mount?
-David
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The coolant flange at the end of the head could simply be blocked off with an appropriate piece of flat. It just runs to the heater and on the quantum's and vanagons all flow from that port is blocked when the heater is turned off anyway.
Andrew
That's great news! I was thinking I was going to cut/weld a 90-degree elbow onto that flange in order to clear the firewall, and relocate the sensor (well, I'll still have to relocate the sensor but that's no big deal). Thanks for the info,
-David
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Hmmmm, a moment of hijacking here, but bear with me if you will.
I've read this thread, followed it, and it's given me ideas.
See, I have a '71 Squareback that I'm about to just put the torch to with the engine problems it's given me. All set to do a rebuild, and can't seem to split the block argh! *Insert much cursing and swearing in many languages here!*
Anyway. I've thought about how to solve all my problems at once: throw a diesel and a manual trans in there! I've gleaned many thoughts about how to do it from reading what you're doing with the Bus, the only difference being really that I'd definitely need to do the 50 degree install so I don't have to extend the box that's already in the engine lid (PO put a two-barrel Weber with upright manifolds on it, built a box over it). I can accomodate the box that's already on there, but anything taller would make the wagon's biggest asset none-existant (No cargo space).
I'm hijacking both for opinions (Yeah yeah, should probably start my own thread...) and to see more specifically how you're planning on working the engine mounts and mustache bar (I'm assuming that's the rear support bar for the flat-4?) for engine mounting.
Still have the Quantum transmission? Wonder if that would fit... I'd be rebuilding the trans anyway, so flipping a ring gear wouldn't be an issue... hell, I'd probably put it in reversed the first time anyway, and have to do it over again! ;)
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Wow a squareback... long time since I saw one of those. If I'm not mistaken, that's a fuel-injected type 4 engine. To split the block, there are a couple of hidden nuts. One is underneath the flywheel. Another is in the recess between the oil sump and the cylinders. Another one in the vicinity of the front main seal, down low. You may need to "break the seal" by tapping the case halves with a mallet. Be gentle, preferably use a wooden or rubber mallet. If you don't already have the HP book, "How to Rebuild your Air Cooled VW", I'd recommend finding a copy. It's an excellent resource.
I'd definitely measure before starting on the diesel conversion - there isn't much room above the engine on a squareback, but depending on how large that box (from the PO) is, you might have a chance. If it fits, I don't see why there would be any major differences between that install and mine, save for where to put the radiator. Not many choices for that on a squareback. Don't think there is room to stand one up on the side like I'm doing, but I've been wrong before.
As for the engine mounts and support (moustache) bar, I have the luxury of being able to easily slide the support bar forward or backwards as much as I want, all I have to do is drill new holes through the frame member. So, I will line it up vertically with the engine mounts. I am pretty sure I'm going to have to put some spacers between the bottom of the engine mount and the bar, but those will be trivial to make. I am probably a month away from fabricating the brackets - the guy selling me the Jetta manifold has been stalling because the parts are apparently not in his posession. If he takes too much longer I may try to track down another source. I need the manifold, oil supply and return lines for the turbo, the rubber intake hose (turbo to intake manifold), and preferably the engine mount beneath the turbo. I could also use a standard oil cooler assembly as mine is canted rearwards to clear the clutch cable. I'd rather have a straight-up-and-down oil filter so oil changes are not so messy.
Yes I still have the Quantum transmission, and it is for sale. Contact me directly if you're interested. Good luck with the project!
-David
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Wow a squareback... long time since I saw one of those. If I'm not mistaken, that's a fuel-injected type 4 engine. To split the block, there are a couple of hidden nuts. One is underneath the flywheel. Another is in the recess between the oil sump and the cylinders. Another one in the vicinity of the front main seal, down low.
Nah, T1 engine without the upright shroud in it. Crank-mounted cooling fan that drew air in from louvers on the side of the car, under the rear windows. I have pretty much all the parts to go back to FI, but this #@$#$%#$!#$!&&^*&%&$%^$%@ case won't split! Even with all the hidden nuts sought out and undone! It's quite annoying.
I'd definitely measure before starting on the diesel conversion - there isn't much room above the engine on a squareback, but depending on how large that box (from the PO) is, you might have a chance. If it fits, I don't see why there would be any major differences between that install and mine, save for where to put the radiator. Not many choices for that on a squareback. Don't think there is room to stand one up on the side like I'm doing, but I've been wrong before.
That's the biggest reason I'd be doing the 50 degree orientation; if I'm thinking properly, that's 50 measured from vertical, right? So only a 40 degree angle measured from the horizontal?
The "box" is about 6" tall above the top of the decklid, and the underside of the decklid has ~4" of clearance from the top of the stock trans. So, overall ~10" of headspace above the top of the transmission; how tall is a 1.6TD overall?
I've thought about where to put radiators before; that car has loads of space in the sides back there, a pair of smaller radiators should do the trick I think. Especially if I do some nice fans drawing air upwards, probably shoot it back out the stock air intake locations.
As for the engine mounts and support (moustache) bar, I have the luxury of being able to easily slide the support bar forward or backwards as much as I want, all I have to do is drill new holes through the frame member. So, I will line it up vertically with the engine mounts. I am pretty sure I'm going to have to put some spacers between the bottom of the engine mount and the bar, but those will be trivial to make.
Ahhh. I have a rear engine support bar that has fixed mounts that hang it from the body of the car; it bolts directly to the block, partially covering the oil pump coverplate.
Maybe a steel frame could be welded up to attach the engine to, a basic box or grid that could then be attached to the pan and body? That would also give me plenty of mounting points for other things, and have the advantage of being simple to put in... just drop the car on top of it!
Also, I don't think that the ring gear can be flipped in the Q tranny. please investigate and doublecheck, but I looked into it once and found that the offset was not the same on either side of the ring gear/input shaft.
Is that something I would need to directly measure, or could I look it up in the Quantum Bentley I have here?
I'd love to go five-speed; maybe one of the fabled "freeway flier" manual transmissions? It's a light car, so I don't think I'd need to worry too much about keeping a good heavy 4.+ differential gearing.
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I can certainly appreciate the style of the older air-cooleds, but a Quantum wagon is a "quantum leap" beyond the squareback in driving quality, interior space, etc... as is the Vanagon over the Bays. Regardless, you guys are doing cool projects and will have very unique vehicles if completed.
Oh I have a Quantum. Syncro, and the Audi 2.0L diesel to go in it. But the ultimatum has been made that the Squareback must be moving under it's own power before I can start that project, and that POS flat-four is really tapdancing on my last nerve. The other reason is my brother liked that wagon, so if I could diesel and manual it (Thus getting it running), he could end up driving it around instead of the (Also very dead) SB we have that many a PO has abused the life out of.
Mmmm... didn't they make five-speed vanagon transaxles? That would probably be better, it would already be set up for shifting from the front with the tail pointing that direction. Either one would be pretty beefy and big in that little space, but that's what welding equipment and modifications are for.
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A thought came to me... the offset in the differential really matters for proper engagement of the pinion against the ring, right?
So if you flipped the differential innards around and the offset was wrong, could you not put in a different sized pinion to make the proper engagement? I can't imagine it being off that much, really. That would change the final drive ratio, but that could be a good thing.
Speedy, is the transmission in your donor Quantum an 013 or an 093?
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:roll: :roll:
Maybe I've got the context of this wrong - but 5-speed vanagon transaxles are not rare at all - after '85 they're the norm, and there's tens of thousands of them floating about.
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:roll: :roll:
Maybe I've got the context of this wrong - but 5-speed vanagon transaxles are not rare at all - after '85 they're the norm, and there's tens of thousands of them floating about.
In Europe, perhaps. We're on the other side of the waters, though, and we didn't/don't get a lot of the VW/Audi stuff that the Europeans get. Like 5-spd Vanagons standard. Or the 2.5L TDI; Grr on that one!
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Maybe I've got the context of this wrong - but 5-speed vanagon transaxles are not rare at all - after '85 they're the norm, and there's tens of thousands of them floating about.
Think of all the money you could make exporting them west.
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Maybe I've got the context of this wrong - but 5-speed vanagon transaxles are not rare at all - after '85 they're the norm, and there's tens of thousands of them floating about.
Think of all the money you could make exporting them west.
I'd buy one, as long as it didn't run into the thousands, if only for this project.
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the 5 speed transaxle just has a lower 1st.
The 5th gear isn't any higher than the four speed tranny.
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So it just spreads out the ratios better for a diesel with a limited revband - hence the 6-speed Audi diesels
It wouldn't be thousands... that's for sure.
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Yup, there are...
http://www.club80-90syncro.co.uk/Syncro_website/TechnicalPages/T25_Transaxle_Specs.htm
and also one for just Syncro vanagons..
http://www.club80-90syncro.co.uk/Syncro_website/TechnicalPages/Syncro%20Axle%20Codes%20and%20Gear%20Ratios%205.htm
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... and some more.
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/VehicleSpecific/T3/info/gbx.htm
5 speed boxes really aren't that great and they command a unrealistic high price here too. Mind you, the DK 2.0l aircooled box aren't exactly thick on the ground and they are considered the strongest box for power hikes and have reasonable ratios.
Just so happens I have one of each sat outside! :D
The last AAP I saw for sale was £400, these are the 2.1 Caravelle boxes, this along with the AAR have the tallest european ratios, and incidentally whats fitted to my Atlantic, but with a LSD :D Watch out for some rear anti roll bar kits soon too! :twisted:
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Paging Andrew, RE: Quantum transmission offset (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=44718#44718)
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I FINALLY got a Jetta manifold! Man what a pain that was, and I paid through the nose for it. Oh well. The turbo needs a major reclock in order to bolt on - how hard is this to do? Is it as simple as removing the six (I think) bolts, rotating the inlet housing, and reinstalling the bolts? I'm going to try it tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks,
-Dave
http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus
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Oh wait, are you doing the 15° install? If so, scratch the oil return tirade...
Andrew
Heh. :-)
Yes, I'm proceeding with the 15 degree install. I removed the six bolts from the exhaust side of the center cartridge. I expected the two sections to move at that point, but I expected too much I guess. Unless I am misunderstanding things, it's stuck together pretty well. :( Take a look - those two sections are supposed to come apart, right? How do I proceed? Heat? BFH? Both?
(http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus/stubborn.jpg)
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Jetta manifold sitting on the engine:
(http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus/jetta_manifold.jpg)
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Never mind... got the turbo apart after several hours of soaking with Kroil followed by a couple hundred hammer blows. I won't be able to clock it exactly vertical - looks like the best I will get is about 15 degrees (roughly inline with the engine block). Major interference with the wastegate (gee, where have I heard THAT before??). Does the Jetta have a different wastegate? Or is the "bracket" that the oil drain hose attaches to different? One of them has to be different, and whichever one it is, I need it. By the time I'm finished with this project, I think I will have an entire Quantum TD engine left over. :x I should have started with a Jetta TD engine.
Oh yeah, in the picture above, the two studs extending outward from the intake manifold also interfere with the turbo. That port was connected to the EGR on the Quantum, but this picture:
(http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/jag/vw/engine/turbo/quturbo.jpg)
... shows the turbo supplying air to this port, with the port on top of the manifold being blocked off. I think the Jetta install must block off the side port, or maybe the Jetta intake manifold does not have the side port at all.
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Speedy, is the transmission in your donor Quantum an 013 or an 093?
Sorry, I missed this earlier. How do I tell which tranny I have? If you tell me where to look, I will find out which one it is.
-Dave
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From earlier, to get more boost, put a bleed in the line between the
wastegate and turbo. To get clearance at the back of the head, find a
piece of aluminum, drill 2 intersecting holes at a right angle, drill 2 sets
of bolt holes-one through for the block, and one set tapped for the outlet.
bolt the outlet to one side, then bolt it to the block. I used "the right
stuff" on the block side with no leaks, and the o-ring seals the other
side.
(http://www.66rover.com/VW%20TD/heateroutlet-sm.jpg)
Problem #2: Water pipe coming out the back of the head extends 2", not including the hose. Clearance for that is going to be tight. The back of the turbo is also going to be close to the firewall which could be a major problem. Won't know for sure until I get it in there. Fortunately, the adapter plate will move the engine back a little which should help.
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Not sure about the Jetta, but the Passat engine I have has the wastegate
close to the oil return. Intake only has a top hole.
(http://www.66rover.com/VW%20TD/turbo_side.jpg)
Does the Jetta have a different wastegate? Or is the "bracket" that the oil drain hose attaches to different? One of them has to be different, and whichever one it is, I need it. By the time I'm finished with this project, I think I will have an entire Quantum TD engine left over. :x I should have started with a Jetta TD engine.
Oh yeah, in the picture above, the two studs extending outward from the intake manifold also interfere with the turbo. That port was connected to the EGR on the Quantum, but this picture:
... shows the turbo supplying air to this port, with the port on top of the manifold being blocked off. I think the Jetta install must block off the side port, or maybe the Jetta intake manifold does not have the side port at all.
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You pretty much need the jetta oil return line. :roll: Or fabricate one.
I was at the dealer today and asked how much a new return hose was. The answer: $200! :shock: I don't need it that badly. I will try to find a used one or fab something up.
Thanks,
-Dave
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To get clearance at the back of the head, find a
piece of aluminum, drill 2 intersecting holes at a right angle, drill 2 sets
of bolt holes-one through for the block, and one set tapped for the outlet.
bolt the outlet to one side, then bolt it to the block. I used "the right
stuff" on the block side with no leaks, and the o-ring seals the other
side.
Jim,
First of all, hats off to you for your conversion! You are a wild man. I like what you did with the heater port and the aluminum block also, but I may not even have room to do that. I got out the straightedge last night and there is about 1" of clearance between the back of the cylinder head and the gas tank. That means using the divider plate I painstakingly cleaned and coverd with sound deadener is out. I am going to either have to "customize" the divider with a BFH or make a new divider out of sheet metal.
The temp sender above that port has a spade connecter on it - I figure if I bend it to 90 degrees, I will be able to leave it there and have a few mm of clearance, but that's about it. I will probably end up using Andrew's idea of blocking off the port completely and Teeing into the port on the side of the head for the heater. Since my air-cooled bus doesn't currently have a heater, there is no rush and I will probably just block it off for now.
-Dave
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Not sure about the Jetta, but the Passat engine I have has the wastegate
close to the oil return. Intake only has a top hole.
Thanks for the pictures. I guess I will block off the hole in the side of the manifold - at least blockoff plates are not too difficult to make. I'm happy to see that your engine has the same wastegate as mine - hopefully that means I just have to fab the oil supply and return lines and I will be done with the whole turbo mounting debacle.
I don't like the way the turbo is so close to the intake manifold in the Jetta installation. Has anyone thought about making up a decent heat shield to go between them?
-Dave
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If you look at the picture of my engine, you can see the factory heat shield
bolted on by the top port and extending down. It is the same color as the
manifold, so doesn't stand out.
[quote="speedy
I don't like the way the turbo is so close to the intake manifold in the Jetta installation. Has anyone thought about making up a decent heat shield to go between them?
-Dave[/quote]
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I did a Ford Pinto to '71 conversion back a few years ago. I tried various configurations of radiator in the back and found that I could never really get the airflow I needed, even with big dual electric fans. I ended up doing a front mount with long solid pipe and rubber radiator hose joints and the original little Pinto radiator. That worked like a charm without a fan.
Originally I used a 4 bar Jeep V8 radiator that fitted the engine door almost perfectly, sealed it with a surround, later adding sheet metal scoops underneath then then later still adding the big dual electric fans.
I still have the Jeep radiator if you have any use for it, just pay the shipping. It was a real blast to drive the Pinto van and fully loaded would cruise up the biggest hill around here in 4th. Kinda noisy but a lot of fun. A diesel should be a blast with all the torque.
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Jim,
I managed to get a heat shield for the Jetta intake manifold (got both from Jack at vwdieselparts.com - nice guy) so I am set there. Thanks
again for the pictures.
Got some updates to the web page:
http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus
... if anyone is interested. Almost have the left engine support finished, the right one will be a piece of cake since I think I can get away with just extending the bottom of the existing Quantum mount rearwards slightly
(it's steel).
Current things worrying me:
What to do about temp sender in the back of the head. Do I really need it? I was looking at the EKTA diagrams the other day and thought I saw two of those senders on the engine. I need to look again - maybe one was for water temp. If I could eliminate the temp sender on the back of the head, I could probably make the gas tank cover plate fit without
modifying the tank itself. That would be nice.
[EDIT] I did a bunch of searching on this site and determined that the sender on the back of the head (drivers side for those with transverse-mounted engines) is the 0.25 bar low oil pressure switch. It works in conjunction with the high-pressure switch on the oil cooler mount to operate the idiot light. Now that I am aware of this, I think I will probably just plug the hole in the cylinder head and use my existing VDO dual sender in the oil cooler mount for the idiot light and dashboard oil pressure gauge. Now all I have to do is find an M10x1.0 plug. :roll:
Oil return line. I can get adapters for the bottom of the turbo with
1/2" NPT or AN-8 or even a barbed fitting. I don't know which one to
choose but I'm leaning towards the AN fitting and then taking the Quantum
drain hose to a local shop to have a braided teflon line made with AN-8
on one end and the original Quantum fitting (type unknown - what the
heck is it anyway?) on the other.
Or, I could cut the Quantum hose and extend it to meet the NPT or AN
fitting at the top. This would be easier but maybe not as strong and
reliable. Opinions?
-Dave
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More updates to the '73 TD bus project - exhaust is nearly done:
http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus/page4.html
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one word - impressive!
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hmmmm i just read your site! good work!
you were having second thoughts about keeping the EGR...
for the benefit of the planet, and a quicker death of your engine, re-install!
it basically sends the soot into your oil so you will need to change oil more often. my advice is to rip it out!
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Hey Speedy... what Andrew said... keep up the great updates !!!
In terms of the low pressure oil sensor... I've been down this road (for a slightly different reason... I use the hole for an oil temp sensor, reasoning that other than the turbo return the oil is at it's hottest at the outlet of the head)... so what to do about the original low pressure sensor ??
My hopeful idea was to use the low pressure switch built into the VDO pressure sensor... however... all of the dual sensors I have found so far have a much higher set point (.7 bar... evidently it's an Audi thing) and on my old beast it trips at idle when the engine is really warm... at least when I tried it in the head position. The last time I bought a new sensor (having run the local junkyard out of old ones) it specifically came with a warning "will not replace existing low pressure sensor"... darn the luck.
I'll be trying it on the oil filter flange (using a relocation kit since the turbo feed gets in the way) and it may work there... if not... well, that's what the gauge and the high-pressure switch will be for.
VDO makes lots of different sensors, so perhaps someday we'll stumble on a VDO part with a 0.25 bar trip.
continuing to live vicariously thru your bus,
Vince
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http://www.limbobus.org/brazilian_kombi.htm
Looks like you could have done it all stock, or just driven one back from down south. :D
Andrew
Wow, that is the shiz!
how do we get that drivetrain back to our soil???
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Thanks for the encouragment, guys. Andrew, I'd like to add your comments to my web page - would that be okay? If so, do you want to be called out or remain anonymous?
I was aware that the pre-90 oil drain line would work, but... I could not find one! They are very difficult to find used and ridiculously expensive new. I kept looking at the Quantum line and bracket sitting on the bench and finally I couldn't stand it anymore and started cutting. :)
Vincent, I already have a VDO dual-pressure sender and it's as you say with the low pressure switch, comes on at idle sometimes when the engine is hot. Since I also have the gauge, this doesn't bother me. I was tenatively thinking about doing the same as you and mounting it at the oil filter with some kind of extension, preferably a hard line since the VDO extension hose I used before hardened and burst on me when I was 500 miles from home a few years ago. I found a 1/8 NPT fitting to cap the hole at a truck stop half a mile up the road - what were the odds? I was laughing hysterically when I saw it. My wife thought I was nuts but she was happy with the result - we kept on driving.
-Dave
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Speedy... thank heavens for understanding co-drivers, even if they laugh.
I once had an engine compartment fire in my Beetle while driving down the highway. Pulled over... a rag I had stuffed in the tin to keep hot air from recycling had fallen down, touched the header, and caught on fire.
I'm watching the flames lick closer to the carb... my co-driver is dancing around "do something... you have a fire extinguisher... use it !!" and I reply "yeah but it will make a huge mess if I have to discharge it". I ponder some more, the flames lick closer... then I run to the front, grab the thermos of coffee that's supposed to last us the entire 5 hour trip, and douse the flames.
Small price to pay for being able to keep on truckin.
The VDO hose that blew out... was it the big black one with the square aluminum manifold:
http://www.concept1.ca/images/42D%2042-004.jpg
I ask 'cause I'm darn close to buying one of them myself....
My problem with a red light that comes on at idle sometimes is that I've already once had my favorite co-driver drive with that exact red light on for at least 10 minutes, and she is now under strict instructions "ignore yellow and green, pull over on red". Very risky to say "pull over on red, unless this gauge here reads at least 2 bar at 2000 RPM".
Vince
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The hose looks similar but mine did not come with any of the other parts in that picture. I would think any rubber hose would have the problems that mine did eventually, which is why I am going to try to extend it some other way - probably via a braided stainless line (brake line).
-Dave
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I tried to start the van tonight. Not done with everything, but done enough to hear it run for a few seconds to restore my motivation. New filter and 4 quarts of oil in the pan (I realize I'm 0.8 quarts low), hotwired the glow plugs and cranked it. Sounds like it is catching in 1 or maybe 2 cylinders and a few puffs of black smoke are coming from the exhaust, but that's all I can get out of it. Also no oil pressure yet (presumably because of the fresh filter). I'm afraid to crank it very long because I don't want to fry the $200 KEP starter. Fuel line does not look like it has any bubbles in it.
Any suggestions on how to get this beast started?
Thanks,
-David
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Did you check to make sure that there was no air in the steel injector lines? Also, when "hot-wiring" the glow plugs, in my experience they cool off pretty fast (the time it takes to pull the wire and run up to the cab). You might try glowing for 20 seconds on slow style plugs.
Man, what a cool project you have there! Keep-er goin!
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Hey welcome back Speedy.
Can't remember your geometry exactly (need to go visit your web site again) but if it's been sitting for a while it might be easier on your starter if you prime a few things first:
- the oil pump can be primed with an electric drill and 13mm socket thru the vacuum pump hole. I usually stick an mechanical oil pressure gauge on the head sensor temporarily so that I can confirm I've good good pressure... priming is good for your turbo as well !
- the fuel system can be primed by applying suction to the out banjo... this draws fuel thru the entire system... filling the filter, the hoses, and the IP so that fuel is ready to hit the injectors.
With fuel and oil at the ready you can crank with impunity !
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Speedy, I really enjoyed reading about your build. I've been running an inline gasser in my '84 vanagon for about 7 years and want to upgrade to a diesel motor. I was looking at the pictures of your exhaust and noticed the similarity to my exhaust. So I thought I'd give you a heads up on a potential problem, heat from the exhaust can deform the plastic cover for the timing belt, resulting in a broken belt, it happened to me. You should consider fabbing up a heat shield to protect the belt cover. Hope this helps
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Guys,
Thanks for the kind words. Priming the oil pump through the vacuum pump hole is just the kind of advice I was hoping for. I will feel a lot better about cranking it when I see the oil pressure idiot light go out. I will do that first thing.
The IP lines were pulled and plugged before I removed the engine from the Quantum and they were still both filled with fuel although the fuel in the return line looked a bit brackish. I'm sure the pump is still full of fuel also. I do not have a spare pump and even if I did, I don't have the experience to swap it out without adding a whole bunch of new variables (timing, mainly) to the mix. So for now I am going to assume the pump is okay. :) I did have a thought that maybe the diesel I am using has gone bad. It has been in a 6 gallon plastic gas can inside the Quantum for... ummm... well over a year which means it got very hot and very cold. I think I am going to buy a few gallons of fresh diesel just in case.
Vanagoner, I thought about the plugs cooling off after the first couple of times I tried to start it so the next couple of times I left the plugs hooked up while I cranked. Total time was about 30 seconds. I had read on this board that the plugs might stay on as much as a few minutes under normal operating conditions so I was assuming 30 seconds wouldn't hurt them. Was I wrong? How long can you leave the glow plugs on without damaging them? I hooked up an ammeter inline with the wire to the plugs and they draw about 40 amps initially, tapering off to about 25 amps within 10 seconds. Does this sound about normal?
-David
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Speedy, I really enjoyed reading about your build. I've been running an inline gasser in my '84 vanagon for about 7 years and want to upgrade to a diesel motor. I was looking at the pictures of your exhaust and noticed the similarity to my exhaust. So I thought I'd give you a heads up on a potential problem, heat from the exhaust can deform the plastic cover for the timing belt, resulting in a broken belt, it happened to me. You should consider fabbing up a heat shield to protect the belt cover. Hope this helps
Broken belt? Ouch! Did you bend any valves when that happened? Thanks for the warning, I will definitely make up some kind of heat shield before I drive it very far.
-David
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I'm not sure what you mean by timing the pump for #1 - I have not touched the pump since I last shut the engine off. But... I got it started! I primed the oil pump and saw the idiot light go out, which made me feel a little better (Thanks Vincent!). Then I hooked up a second battery for a bit more cranking power. It was still only catching on one cylinder. Then I hooked up a remote start wire and cranked the engine while loosening the hard line at each injector until fuel came out. After that it started hitting on 2. I again tried keeping the glow plugs on while cranking and it finally started and settled down to a nice smooth idle. Whoopeeee! Good to hear it run again.
I have a few more things to do before I can take it on a test drive. Mount radiator and connect to hoses with 90 degree bends, attach expansion tank, connect turbo outlet to intake manifold, fab one more muffler bracket. Everything else can wait until after the first drive.
-David
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Ahhh, thanks for the explanation. I did replace the timing belt, but I did not move any of the pulleys so I figured there was no way it could be 180 out.
-David
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For priming the fuel pump, fit a boat tank squeeze bulb (available at WallyMart) into the fuel return line (make sure it's in the right way :) ). Squeeze it till it bleeds!
moT
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The time has come for me to get rid of the 85 Quantum TD donor car. It has a good 5-speed transaxle. The members of this board have been a great help to me so I would like to offer up the tranny for FREE to any listmember who wants to come out to Dallas, Tx. and remove it. Other parts may be available, just ask. The car will be gone by the end of the week one way or the other so please reply quickly if interested.
-David
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I made a big push tonight to get the bus ready to drive. Went into full ghetto mode to finish up the last few tasks - I was slicing radiator hoses willy-nilly and using sink drains for the elbows, I hung the muffler up with two coat hangers. I wired up the electric fan to the thermo switch in the side of the radiator but it did not appear to work. I grounded one side of the fan and the other went to the "low" connector in the middle of the switch. The "+" connector on the switch went to the battery. The low switch should have come on at 85C but at 95 it was still not on so I got scared and hotwired the fan to cool the engine down.
The engine took a looooong time to warm up, at least 5 minutes. Could have been ten - I was having too much fun breathing diesel fumes to notice. Coolant was squirting into the overflow tank through the small tube - is that normal? I guess it is. There were strange temperature gradients in the radiator before the fan came on - it was hot at the top and very cool at the bottom... normal? I think I hooked up all of the hoses properly but I could have made a mistake somewhere.
I also couldn't get a water temp gauge working. I have an existing VDO oil temperature gauge in the dash and was hoping it would display water temperature when hooked to one of the spade connectors at the coolant outlet (the one that has the upper radiator hose attached to it). But, that didn't work. Another problem I will have to investigate before I take it beyond the end of the driveway. I'm just too scared to go anywhere without a working water temp gauge.
Finally, I bought some 1.5" pvc pipe and a few elbows to connect the turbo outlet to the intake manifold. Home Depot even had thick rubber couplers for a few bucks which will make it dead simple to hook up. I've seen a lot of people use PVC for their turbo piping and while it looks a bit cheesy it's hard to argue with the price and convenience. So, unless someone has a good reason not to, I am going to use it for now.
Unfortunately it is now after 1am and I am not a kid anymore - I have to give up and go to bed once again with the bus still in the garage. I will try again tomorrow night to get these last few things finished up. If anyone has hints for hooking up a water temp gauge or the fan thermo switch, I'd love to hear them.
Thanks,
-David
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Good progress David.
If I could flip something over on that transaxle to use it, I would, but then you would have too. I think folks who build mid-engine replicars like the GT 40 would love to have your transaxle, sturdy and high geared.
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The TD Quantum is gone, sold for scrap. :cry: I did take quite a few parts off of it, send me e-mail if you need anything.
I got the boost and EGT gauges installed and there are a few new pictures on the web page:
http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus
-David
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That's pretty much what it's for at the moment, just to test the routing. I am thinking about reversing the elbow on top of the intake manifold to point forwards (front is front) and running the pipe up around the front of the engine compartment, just to keep the area around the engine hatch uncluttered. I just have to make sure it doesn't get close to the hot side of the turbo.
-David
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By the way, what are people doing for the two smaller hoses that come off of the water pump? Each has a connection to the oil cooler - one goes up to the block (bypass hose) and the other to a distribution pipe. The bypass hose is available from busdepot.com for about $22, the other one seems to be unavailable. I bought some barbed hose connectors made of thick steel from the hardware store and I was planning on cutting and rewelding them to make tees which will allow me to use the more commonly available hoses which do not have hookups to the oil cooler.
Thanks,
-David
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I have been experimenting with the boost a bit. First, I plugged the hose going to the wastegate which I thought would get me a ton of boost. Nope - went up from 9psi to about 13 with a slight increase in power. I removed the fuel screw, broke off the collar (harder than I thought it was going to be) and reinstalled it a bit further in than it was originally. When I gave it throttle, the RPM ran away on me. I couldn't reduce the idle much because there is no slack in the throttle cable to allow it. So, I put the fuel screw back to where it was originally.
Next I decided that the stock turbo-to-air-cleaner hose was restrictive, and was also starting to crack. Plus, my air filter was the old one from the Quantum which looked like it had not been changed in... years. Rather than spend money on a new hose and/or air filter, I bought one of the Ghetto-fabulous conical air filters from Autozone and cobbled together an adapter to attach it directly to the turbo (I will later weld in a fitting for the hose to the valve cover). They had white, red or blue so I chose blue. Why not??!?
Back on the road, I was disappointed to find only slightly more boost. A max of 15psi wide open in 4th gear. On the bright side, I had no trouble getting up to 65mph (3900rpm in 4th gear). On the down side, I blew another cooling hose and saw the engine briefly go to an indicated 270 degrees F. I shut it off and let it cool down to 240 before limping it the final couple of blocks back to my house. I hope I didn't do any damage to the engine.
So why can't I get more than 15psi boost? Do I need to rotate the boost pin to get to 20psi? Turn the star wheel?
Thanks,
-David
p.s. as a reminder I have a stock Quantum TD 1.6 engine with KKK K24, open-element air cleaner and 2.25" mandrel bent exhaust.
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There is no BOV in the intake manifold so I don't think I have one anywhere on the engine. I guess I will attempt to adjust the cone - gonna be slightly scary as my experience thus far working on injection pumps has been mostly bad (as in I have just messed things up).
The coolant hoses are just old ones I was using from the Quantum. I think every rubber part on that car was rotten (except the engine mounts for some reason) and I am slowly replacing them all, but some are harder to find than others and I'm anxious to be driving. :)
-David
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I tried some more things tonight - the coolant hose was not as bad of a failure as I thought - one of the sink-drain junctions I had put into the 1-1/4" lower radiator hose had just popped loose. I replaced that and tightened all of the other hose clamps on the cooling system. Found that my radiator has a small leak. :( But not bad enough to stop driving.
I took the top off the ALDA and lo and behold, the dot on the top of the diaphragm was already almost opposite of the notch in the side. I turned it until it was 180 degrees from the notch and put it back together. No noticeable change from that mod. I turned the "smoke screw" in three turns, still no more boost observed. Can't tell how much smoke was coming out the exhaust because it was dark out, but there was none at idle or when goosing the throttle at idle. Finally I tightened up my accelerator cable a little bit, taking the last bit of slack out to the point where it would not quite return to idle - BINGO, 18 psi with my foot on the floor. Might have been good for a little more but I smelled burning plastic so I backed off. :lol:
The bus is "quite peppy" now, definitely faster than it was with the carbed 2.0 hydraulic engine it replaced. I am enjoying the power and the whistle of the turbo. I don't think I'm going to push it any harder for the time being.
It would be nice though if I could rev a bit higher before the fuel starts cutting out. Is there any way to raise the cutout point a little bit without doing the governor mod? A couple hundred rpm would be all I need.
Thanks for the suggestions,
-David
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This is nice!!
Im about to start the same conversion on my 1973 westy, just waiting to get the adapter plate and the snow to melt (my jetta with the 1.9td is under 6 feet of snow)
My engine is a 1.9TD...
Some people told me not to put a TD engine in a stock tranny westy, as the engine Rev is too high and the engine will be prone to heat!
I ll be glad to hear from your first roadtest ..
I was also wondering about the radiator but at first ill put it in the engine bay as you did.. well see later if i can manage better place..
keep your good work, thanks for the pictures it helps!
mike
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Mike,
With 27" tires on my '73 with stock tranny, I am turning 3600rpm at 60mph and 4000 at 67mph. This might be considered "too high" by some but I am going to drive it for a while as-is before I make that decision. I don't plan on driving it fast because most of the time I am more interested in economy than getting there in a hurry. I think it will do just fine at 60mph.
I have a '75 5-rib tranny sitting in my garage which has about a 1.5% taller ratio in 4th gear. That's about 1mph more at a given freeway rpm. The next step up from that is the 75 tranny with .82 4th gear which would be close to 10% taller than stock. An 091 tranny would also be about 10% taller. This may be too much - again, I will drive it for a while and hopefully the solution will become obvious. I am not going to opt for a taller-geared tranny unless I have power to burn at freeway speeds and no overheating problems.
I haven't driven my bus much in the past month because I have been working on various small projects (mounting the fuel filter, glow plug relay, etc.) and trying to improve the cooling system. I have a second radiator ordered (a new aluminum one with 22" wide core, only $59 from Bus Depot!!) and depending on how well that one works I might order another one to replace the brass/copper unit in there now. The aluminum radiator has the advantage of more fin area and the sensor also mounts perpendicular to the radiator, as opposed to sticking out the end of the tank where it has caused me a lot of grief with the brass/copper radiator.
Please keep me posted on your conversion! I will be very interested in your progress and also happy to help in any way I can.
-David
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I got the second radiator installed and went for a drive yesterday. Temps stayed around 195 around town and on the highway were at 210-220. Is this normal temperature? I searched but could not find many posts from people who had numbered gauges. I could not really get it to go much past 220, maybe if I had more room or if the weather was hotter.
So what is typical maximum normal operating temperature?
Thanks,
-David