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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rabbid79 on April 17, 2010, 11:41:55 pm
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Hi everyone,
I thought I'd share my project with you. I have been contemplating building a Quattro turbo diesel for a couple of years, and since the lease on my Subaru is up at the end of summer, I decided it's time to get moving.
I've been trying to decide between using a 2.0TD (engine code DE) that I have, or buying a 2.4D (engine code AAB) and turbo charging that. I came across a factory remanufactured AAB with a new block, and jumped on it. This engine was originally for the Eurovan (T4), so isn't a direct fit into a sedan application. Fortunately, Audi did put a 2.4D (engine code 3D) into their European-only 100 sedans. This engine is virtually identical to the AAB, so I was able to import certain parts, namely the valve cover and the rear coolant flange, to make the job a little easier. The AAB in the Eurovan application also used the turbo oil return line hole in the block for the dipstick hole. Since I'll be using this hole for the turbo, I needed to drill a new hole in the mounting boss on the other side of the block. A friend suggested I bolt a piece of scrap metal to the under side of the block on my DE engine, and drill from the original dipstick hole into the scrap metal to make a jig. Then just reverse the process to drill into the AAB block. It worked perfectly.
I'm shooting for around 200 HP/325 ft./lbs., and feel pretty good about turbocharging the AAB, since it is very similar to the DE and the AAZ. For starters, it has oil cooling jets under the pistons and the same exhaust valves as the AAZ. It doesn't use the same pistons and rods as the AAZ, but another forum member purportedly ran AAB pistons in an application that exceeded 100 HP/L., so I'm not too worried about them. The other upside to the AAB rods is that they're lighter than the AAZ rods (huge end caps), and should be able to turn a few more RPMs safely. The AAB block itself has also been used in 20-Valve gas applications up to 1200 HP, so I'm not worried about the block either. I'm doing all of the usual upgrades to help make reliable power (e.g. Giles pump, MLS head gasket, ARP fasteners, etc.)
Three of the exhaust stud holes came with time-serts. Upon removing the studs to install stainless fasteners, I discovered a few more holes with bad threads, so I decided to repair all of the holes with time-serts.
If anyone is interested in my observations of what is replaced on a factory reman'd engine, I'd be happy to list the details.
I know you guys are into naked engines, so on to the pics.
Host vehicle - 1989 Audi 100 Quattro, 79K miles:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures037.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures040.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures042.jpg)
Stock engine as removed from crate:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures015.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures018.jpg)
Drilling new dipstick hole - 9.8mm drill bit from McMaster-Carr worked perfectly:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures079.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures080.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures082.jpg)
Installing new time-serts into exhaust stud holes:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures085.jpg)
Anyway, I hope to have the head back on this week, and possibly the old engine removed from the car next weekend.
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I know you guys are into naked engines
We are.... we are... keep 'em coming.
Will be very much looking forward to turbo fitment... got a brother with an AAB and it really really really needs help. ;D ;D
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Really looking forward to watching this build progress! Please keep the pics coming!!
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OMG im SO SO SO happy about this.
I would LOVE a 5 cyl. That thing will be an interesting engine for sure. heaps of fun to drive once it's breathing fire.
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Beautiful car...
What turbo ?
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Thanks for the encouragement. I'm planning to use the stock K24 that comes with the DE engine. It should be good for 20 lbs. or so. Giles said the pump he built is capable of 250/400 at 30 lbs., but I don't plan on going that high. One day I would like to build a Porsche 924 TD Bonneville racer, so it's good to know a big enough pump can be made.
The AAB is a "tall block" engine which is 16mm taller than the DE. Therefore the DE turbo oil lines probably won't be long enough and I will need to have new ones made.
I haven't decided whether to use water/methanol injection, air/air intercooling, or both. The intercooler install should be pretty straight forward since all of the turbo variants of these cars were intercooled. The bigest problem with the factory intercooler is the crimped-on plastic end tanks. I popped one of these off once on a modified 5000 TQ. Granted, it was between a full boost 1-2 shift, and the car didn't have a pop-off valve. Once the throttle body slammed shut, the air had nowhere to go. Obviously, this won't be a problem on a diesel, so maybe the stock intercooler would be ok for a while. For now I plan to route the air straight into the manifold like the DE engine does, and leave the boost set at the stock 10lbs. After the engine is sorted out a bit, I'll crank up the boost and fuel.
Will also install boost and EGT gauges where the ash tray is, probably VDO "Vision" series which are very similar to stock gauges. Snow performance also makes a version of their methanol injection controller that measures EGTs and boost. I haven't decided which way to go for sure. Once neat thing is I can use the large 5 liter factory windshield washer reservoir that is built into the front corner of the engine compartment for the methanal injection. Then I can mount a smaller Audi 5000 windshield washer reservoir to the stock mounting flange on the firewall for the regular windshield washer.
Valve cover from European 3D engine - compare to stock AAB which has 3 studs for mounting long tube for oil filler cap:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures028.jpg)
Test fitting Giles pump, head studs, removing purple Hylomar-like sealant used from the factory:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures030.jpg)
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Was the IC you blew on the 5000 strapped? I was running 2.2 bar with no problems when I sold mine.
If this swap goes well you should shove an AAB into a coupe quattro.
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Intresting build 8)
What gearing your Audi has? Usually quattro gearings are not that good for diesel :( I´m going to install 1,9TD in my b2 80q and will make C4 S4 5 speed 01E to fit. With that transmission, it´ll be ~2600@100kmh... When I get rich, :lol: I´ll get C4 6-speed TDI transmission, which is bolt on then.
My friend had a similar build than yours, but he went back to 2,2 20v ::) Fully rebuilt 3D engine is still in my garage waiting to be installed... The engine was first in ´84 Passat (http://www.kotinet.com/matti.farm/Passat/113-1352_img.jpg), but that got stock DE and was sold.
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Was the IC you blew on the 5000 strapped? I was running 2.2 bar with no problems when I sold mine.
No, not the one that blew. Later I installed a Ben Swann chip and W/G spring into a FWD 5000 with slushbox and did strap the intercooler. Only ran 1.8 bar absolute though, so no problems. I may install a factory intercooler and strap it like you said. If/when I go higher than 20 lbs, I'll probably upgrade to an all aluminum core from 2Bennett.
What gearing your Audi has? Usually quattro gearings are not that good for diesel
The gear ratios in my 01A box are abysmal. :( It works out to 21.3 MPH per 1000 RPM in 5th gear on the 215/45-17s. This car will be my daily driver, and the legal limit of any roads on my commute to work is 50 MPH, so it won't be too bad. I plan to install a Spec stage 2 clutch. This will be compatible with a 01E 6-speed if I ever decide to go that route. I'm hoping someone will come out with a kit to make installing a 01E into a type-44 a bolt-in affair. My other option is the tranny from a B3 80/90. This transmission will give me 23.2 MPH/1000. Still not great, but better.
How did the turbo'd 3D do in the Passat? I really like those intake manifolds. I'd like to get a hold of the little hose flange that mounts to the manifold, but unfortunately, they're NLA from Audi. The best I can do is have one of the stock pipes machined to fit a hose to.
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It was never really boosted in Passat. ~1bar with tiny T3 Garret and it was dynoed ~135hp/290nm at wheels.
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The power on this engine sounds great compared to the DE I have in by 5000 Quattro. I would like to get a taller 5th gear for mine so maybe the car could get more than 40 mpg. I tried to swap the 5th gearset from the 1980 transmission (.68) with the one in the quattro transmission (.73), but the inner diameter on the gear that went to the differentials was larger on the quattro. If anyone knows a good source for inexpensive gears, let us know.
My Motorgeek write-up left a few things out. I left the fuel pump in the tank, but I drilled some holes in the check valve, so the IP could more easily pull the diesel fuel out of the tank. I also used the air intake from the gas car, but modified it by plugging some holes and sawing off the fuel metering flap.
I had a custom 2 1/2" down pipe made that comes off of the turbo, so I tied that into the existing Quattro exhaust system. Where the Cat was there is a splice so I can remove the back part of the exhaust system without unbolting the down pipe from the turbo.
I'm running 18 psi of boost, and haven't strapped my intercooler, But I did modify the intercooler so the bypass valve functioned properly. Let me know if I can help.
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I really like those intake manifolds. I'd like to get a hold of the little hose flange that mounts to the manifold, but unfortunately, they're NLA from Audi.
Umm, what flange do you mean? The one that connects boost hose to manifold? Do you already have intake manifold? I have spare 2,0 turbo manifold with connecting flange. And stock 3D flange, the one in Passat is made of "billet".
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Hey TPW, thanks for the advice. I've been following your project on MG for a while now. It's part of what inspired me to do mine. What did you do about the fuel accumulator? Did you bypass it? Do you know if it gets in the way of the FI pump pulling fuel?
Umm, what flange do you mean? The one that connects boost hose to manifold?
Yes, that's the one. I already have a DE manifold that I've reconditioned and gasket matched since the AAB intake ports are 2mm larger in each direction than the DE. Thanks for the offer though. Does the part of the 3D flange that connects to the manifold look like this? If so, are you interested in selling it? It might be cheaper and better than trying to have the flange in the picture machined. What size intercooler hose does it fit? Does it work with the stock "Michelin Man" hose?
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures093.jpg)
Gasket matched manifold. Didn't go too crazy here:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures091.jpg)
Oil pan from 20V 7A engine. Has good baffling and windage tray. Should also help dissipate heat:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures092.jpg)
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I never did anything with the Fuel Accumulator, but I did remove the gasoline filter, and the way I drilled holes in the check valve bypasses the noise suppressor on top of the fuel pump.
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Does the part of the 3D flange that connects to the manifold look like this? If so, are you interested in selling it? It might be cheaper and better than trying to have the flange in the picture machined. What size intercooler hose does it fit? Does it work with the stock "Michelin Man" hose?
You can take the throttle body off of a gas car and modify it to fit the diesel intake manifold, gut it, and plug the holes. Then the MM hose can connect the IM to the intercooler.
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My question (Being a CN engine owner) is where are you getting the headgasket? I need one... :(
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You can take the throttle body off of a gas car and modify it to fit the diesel intake manifold, gut it, and plug the holes. Then the MM hose can connect the IM to the intercooler.
I had planned on doing that, even had the TB, but didn't like the way it fit the manifold. Mine was the teardrop shape. Do you know if the round ones are a better fit without that extra hole?
My question (Being a CN engine owner) is where are you getting the headgasket? I need one...
Do you mean an MLS gasket, or just a regular fiber gasket? I have a 2 and 3 hole fiber if you need one. If you're taking about the MLS gasket, your best bet is to use one from the AAB engine. I can post up pictures of the regular DE fiber, the AAB fiber, and an AAB MLS gasket for comparison if you want.
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I had planned on doing that, even had the TB, but didn't like the way it fit the manifold. Mine was the teardrop shape. Do you know if the round ones are a better fit without that extra hole?
I used the teardrop shaped TB, no experience with a round one.
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Does the part of the 3D flange that connects to the manifold look like this? If so, are you interested in selling it? It might be cheaper and better than trying to have the flange in the picture machined. What size intercooler hose does it fit? Does it work with the stock "Michelin Man" hose?
Nope, it´s just hose flange. Just like in Passat, but for bigger hose. I´ve never measured it, but it´s 2,5" or even bigger. Same kind as 2,0 TDIC, cannot remember engine code now... I have 2,0 TDIC and 3D flanges somewhere, I´ll have to find and measure those. Both are for sale if I can find those.
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What did you do about the fuel accumulator? Did you bypass it?
Upon further investigation, It looks as if this car doesn't have a fuel accumulator. Someone removed it and replaced it with a short length of hose before I bought it. The gas engine never ran since I have owned this vehicle, so I don't know what difference the lack of it made (long cranking on cold starts?)
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Nope, it´s just hose flange. Just like in Passat, but for bigger hose. I´ve never measured it, but it´s 2,5" or even bigger. Same kind as 2,0 TDIC, cannot remember engine code now... I have 2,0 TDIC and 3D flanges somewhere, I´ll have to find and measure those. Both are for sale if I can find those.
I'd be interested in buying one of them if you can find them. Please send IM and pics if you can find one.
Upon further investigation, It looks as if this car doesn't have a fuel accumulator.
Thanks for researching that for me. It sounds like I should bypass mine as well, unless someone has experience drawing diesel fuel through one of these?
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Ok, been making lots of progress. I've only got 3 months until the Subaru goes away, so it time to really get moving.
Widdled out a vacuum pump block-off plate. The T44 Audis use hydraulic brake assist, so a high volume vacuum pump hanging off the head isn't really necessary. The T44s do use vacuum to run the HVAC control solenoids, but I plan on using the built-in cruise control vacuum pump for that. It was necessary to counter-sink the holes and use low-head allen bolts. Otherwise, the glowplug strap would hit the lower bolt.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures107.jpg)
Using head alignment pins in outer holes as referred to by the Bentley. I didn't know this, but on the 5-cylinder engines, these two head bolt holes in the head are smaller than any of the others. Once you set the head down, it barely moves in any direction, and ensures that the head and block are perfectly aligned. Once the 10 other head bolts have been installed and snugged a bit, you then use a reverse threaded extractor to remove them. I'm not sure if the 4-cylinder engines use the same idea or not.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures100.jpg)
Finally got head and MLS gasket installed. Using some of those new ARP2000 head studs. I ordered them through MJM Autohaus. I am pleased with MJM as they took the time to call ARP to get two extras for my 5-cylinder. Only charged me an additional $29 too. Torqueing these babies to 120 ft/lb is a little unnerving. I'll go to 125 after the engine has been heat cycled a few times.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures104.jpg)
Also installed a new cam since the original one had some pitting on a couple of the lobes. Perhaps the old one would be a good core for Dr. Diesel's new cam grinding service?
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures106.jpg)
Can anyone help me find this part? It's an oil check valve that goes into the side of the block to help keep oil in the head. You can see one in the picture of the engine on the first page, but it is only the adapter, not the spring/piston. This picture is from a friend's AAB. My local dealer can't find anything like it, and I even called a Canadian VW dealership, and their pictures show the little integrated valve like the 5-cylinder gas engines use. The one in this picture already has an oil pressure switch installed into it. I'm just looking for the adapter/spring/piston portion. If anybody happens to know the part number, I'd be greatful.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/CheckValveVWAAB.jpg)
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On my 'KATE' The valve is listed on the block diagram as 077 103 175 B, or as 047 103 175 A with an 'X' in remarks. ??? Diagram # 103-30
The sensor is ?? 0.25bar blue , or is it 0.9 bar grey AAB specific? Diagram confusing is there 2 sensor sockets?
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Wow, just found this thread, GREAT project!
I just acquired my own Audi Coupe Quattro, and really thought how great it would be with some beefy diesel power. I didn't know these 5-cylinder engines were ever in North America. Sure, it's not a 2.5 TDI but it should do nicely.
I think 034 motorsport has mounts to use an 01E transmission now, it's the driveshaft that is the tricky bit, though when swapping an 01E into a Coupe, you can use the 4kQ shaft, so I've been told. Don't know about the 100's though. There is also a company making a 1-piece driveshaft in any length you need but I can't seem to find them right now.
Here's mine, just picked it up a couple weeks ago:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_mDxOuTI25gI/S8mgNjOoBZI/AAAAAAAADY0/2Un-SXwjV_M/s800/IMG_5664.JPG)
Right now, it's down for a tranny swap and clutch and timing belt. Fun stuff! I did pick up an 01E 6-speed from an S4 for practically nothing. Needs rebuilt but couldn't pass up the price, that will be a "back burner" project.
I'll be watching this build, good luck!
Brendan
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On my 'KATE' The valve is listed on the block diagram as 077 103 175 B, or as 047 103 175 A with an 'X' in remarks. Diagram # 103-30
The sensor is ?? 0.25bar blue , or is it 0.9 bar grey AAB specific? Diagram confusing is there 2 sensor sockets?
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, that first part number is one I have already ordered. It's actually a much smaller self-contained valve that screws into a passage inside the block, and isn't at all compatible with my block. Maybe the second number is the one I need, and it's not coming up on genuineaudiparts.com, which may mean it's NLA.
That's a pretty couple Brendan. Have you thought about installing 034's new 7A turbo kit on it? That thing would fly!
I didn't know these 5-cylinder engines were ever in North America.
The 2.4D wasn't available in the US, only Canada. I got this one through a place in Nevada that imports stuff like this.
If anybody has a spare AAB fuel injection pump mounting bracket kicking around, I might be interested in it.
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Some progress... Got the old gasser and its never ending supply of hoses and wires out. I can't wait to finish stripping the engine compartment of the rest of this junk. It should be very satisfying. I hate that you have to remove the front bumper and sheet metal support on these cars to get the engine out. But now that it's off, it should make getting in there to clean things up a breeze. You can see in the bottom left-hand corner the huge windshield washer reservoir that would be great for water/methanol injection.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures078.jpg)
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SOOOSOOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSO
SICKKK!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I WISH I HAD A 5CYL!!!! :D :D :D :D
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... I hate that you have to remove the front bumper and sheet metal support on these cars to get the engine out. But now that it's off, it should make getting in there to clean things up a breeze...
The removal of the bumper/front support/core support may seem like a PITA, but if you've ever done many powerplant R&Rs on the Audi Fox and VW B1/Bx series, you'd likely come to appreciate the extra room! IMO those early models can be a nightmare, even with stock inline 4cyl engines.
Great project and pictures. You obviously have thought this one out in great detail. Beautiful car; I feel that the mid '80s-to-early '90s Audi 5000/100/200 (and the pre-'95 German Ford Scorpios) represented some of the most tasteful sedan designs, ever... so far. Crap, maybe it's an age thing? ::) Anyway your 100Q looks great and will be an even better vehicle with your TD re-power!
BTW did your Vegas Euro-source mention anything about the availability of the Audi V6 TD/TDI engines(2.5L/2.7L/3.0L)?
J.R.
SoCal
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Thanks for the compliments. I love the T44s too. It might be an age thing. Ever since I saw my first '86 5000 QT when I was in high school, I've been in love with them. For me, it's as much nostalgia as classic good looks.
BTW did your Vegas Euro-source mention anything about the availability of the Audi V6 TD/TDI engines(2.5L/2.7L/3.0L)?
The place I bought my engine from is under new ownership, and I don't think they have the same connections as the previous owners. I would be a bit surprised if they imported anything "exotic" anymore. I don't know if they ever had any of those engines. I've never heard of a VW/Audi based V6 TD, just TDIs.
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Hi everyone, I'm looking for some advice on a strange problem I'm having. I put the timing belt on today. Since I don't have the flywheel mounted, I set TDC using a dial indicator on the #1 piston. I locked the cam into position, and proceeded to install the water pump, timing belt, and cam sprocket. I tensioned the belt according to the Bentley, and proceeded to turn the engine over by hand to make sure there wasn't any binding. Well, there was. It turns smoothly except that 5 times per rotation of the crankshaft (6 if you include getting back to where you were), there is a noticeable increase in the amount of force necessary to turn it. It only last for a few degrees, and then it's nice and smooth again. If anyone has ever slowly turned over a model airplane engine and felt the power stroke, that is what it feels like.
A few things to know:
No glow plugs or injectors are installed.
All of the cylinders, bearings, cam lobes, and lifters are well lubricated. The oil pump looks to have lubrication on the gears.
The position of the blades of the water pump doesn't seem to coincide with the binding.
The fuel injection pump is not connected.
The binding does not happen at TDC or BDC for any cylinder.
The binding seems to be very consistent for all 5 times in a complete rotation. It doesn't seem to be more or less-so for any particular cylinder.
I don't hear any knocking or scraping or other noises when it happens.
I didn't ever turn the motor before I disassembled it, so I don't know if it was happening before.
The only parts I have replaced on the bottom end are the main bolts with studs.
I did replace the cam from a suffix 'A' to a 'B'. According to the Eurovan Bentley, the 'B' is the one that should be in there anyway.
The lobes of the cam don't appear to be making contact with the lifter bores or anything like that.
The problem also happens when turning the crank CCW, but isn't as noticeable, and doesn't seem to happen at exactly the same position. It's off by a few degrees.
The problem does seem to coincide somewhat with lobes of the cam that are down, but the piston is nowhere near TDC at the time. Could the hydraulic lifters, which are new and have never had oil in them have something to do with it?
I think the next step is perhaps to get one of those small round mirrors to see what's happening along the back side of the crank. I am also considering slightly advancing or retarding the cam timing, or removing it all together to make absolutely sure it's not some slight form of valve/piston contact.
Does anybody have any ideas? Thanks for your input.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures111.jpg)
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My question (Being a CN engine owner) is where are you getting the headgasket? I need one...
Do you mean an MLS gasket, or just a regular fiber gasket? I have a 2 and 3 hole fiber if you need one. If you're taking about the MLS gasket, your best bet is to use one from the AAB engine. I can post up pictures of the regular DE fiber, the AAB fiber, and an AAB MLS gasket for comparison if you want.
An MLS gasket would be fantastic. Who are you buying from, someone in Canada?
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The resistance you are feeling is probably from the injection pump, there is a pretty significant "click" when it's on a pressure stroke, even without any fuel in it. That would make sense if it is happening 5 times per rotation.
Just a guess....
Brendan
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I think i figured out the difficulty to turn issue.
it's because there is a point in a normal rotation of an inline engine like these where there is a mechanical ... im going to call it dead spot?
where for part of the con rods trip around the crank there is a tough spot, mechanically. It's where the rod has the least amount of torque to push the piston head up or pull it down so for example...
TDC or bottom dead centre? where the con rod is at it's lowest point and has to come out of that 0 degree spot to then have a little bit of mechanical advantage to move the piston up or down!!!!
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Thanks for the responses guys. Unfortunately, it's not the FI pump because it's not connected. I like the idea of the "deat spot", where there's a lot of friction keeping things from moving. I'm not sure if that's it though because it "hits" all of a sudden. It doesn't build up. Just the same, I removed the spark plugs from the old engine to check for a similar occurrence, but didn't feel anything like it. Granted, the old engine has 80K miles on it and is thoroughly broken in. It is also smaller in displacement with completely different internal dimensions. It's still a 5-cyl. though, so it was worth a try.
I've heard this on this forum before, and a friend suggested it too; maybe setting TDC using a dial indicator isn't such a great idea. Maybe I do have the timing screwed up. I'm going to purchase a little mirror tomorrow, and if I don't see anything obvious going on behind the scenes, I'll pull the cam and see if the problem goes away.
Worst case scenario is I'll have to wait until the engine is in the car to set the timing with the proper timing marks on the flywheel. I have to wait until it's in the car to torque the large front sprocket bolt anyway (250 ft/lbs WITH an additional torque wrench extension specially designed for these engines). No way to safely torque that sucker without the engine in the car.
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How do you have it timed without the IP hooked up? Or am I missing something obvious?
Yeah, that front crank bolt scares me. I'm not sure how I'm going to remove it when I do my 20v timing belt. 335 ft-lbs with locking compound?!?!?
Brendan
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I had a very similar sensation when I bench retimed my 1.5D. Turned out I was a tooth (maybe more, it was some time ago) off on the crank... which was apparently enough to ever so lightly love-tap the valves to the piston face.
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It looks like to me the IP was driven off the other side of the cam.
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How do you have it timed without the IP hooked up? Or am I missing something obvious?
It looks like to me the IP was driven off the other side of the cam.
That's correct. I'm only setting the crank/cam timing, not the injection pump timing.
I had a very similar sensation when I bench retimed my 1.5D. Turned out I was a tooth (maybe more, it was some time ago) off on the crank... which was apparently enough to ever so lightly love-tap the valves to the piston face.
Hopefully that's the same problem I'm having.
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How do you have it timed without the IP hooked up? Or am I missing something obvious?
It looks like to me the IP was driven off the other side of the cam.
That's correct. I'm only setting the crank/cam timing, not the injection pump timing.
Ah, Volvo style. Duh. Sorry about that.
Brendan
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What method did you use for setting TDC with the dial indicator?
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What method did you use for setting TDC with the dial indicator?
It wasn't terribly scientific. Just before I installed the head, I positioned the dial indicator on the very center of the piston. Then turned it CCW past TDC, then turned it CW slowly to TDC and watched the needle rise until it stopped and then went the other direction. I then set the dial on the gauge to "0" at the position where it looked like it had been stopping. I repeated the process several times until I was sure I knew exactly when the needle stopped moving, and then set the crank to exactly that position.
You can see in the picture of the cylinders on page 2 where the #1 piston is at "TDC". I also measured piston protrusion at this point and it was 0.66mm, which is the farthest I could ever get it to protrude out of the cylinder.
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You likely have it timed a tooth off then. There is a considerable amount of degrees at TDC and DBC where the piston is not moving but the crank is.
What you should do is flip your engine over and measure off the #2 or #3 piston BDC. I would measure 0.20mm on one side of the stroke and make a line and then 0.20mm on the other side and make a line. The exact center of those two lines is your TDC. If you are able to measure more then 0.20mm it would likely be more accurate because the piston moves more per degree of rotation.
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How do you have it timed without the IP hooked up? Or am I missing something obvious?
It looks like to me the IP was driven off the other side of the cam.
That's correct. I'm only setting the crank/cam timing, not the injection pump timing.
Ah, Volvo style. Duh. Sorry about that.
Brendan
Audi style* volvos bought the engine from audi. so therefor, its audi style.
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Jeremy:
Sorry to have missed this thread, haven't been around for a while.
Before anything else, mark the crank position for each piston on your front pulley and THEN take a look at each valve position in that cylinder as it nears TDC (and also, at what degree of rotation each of the sticky spots are located. If there is a valve interference problem, the cam will be NEARLY closed when the event occurs in that cylinder. If they are NOT open, stop looking at cam intereference issues.
If they ARE in the right position, simply dissconnect the timing belt and remove the camshaft. IF it was a valve-to-piston issue, it won't be there anymore.
Just a note for Brendan: if it was an injection pump load, it would be 5 times every TWO turns, not per rotation.
Regarding your front pulley torque: wait until you have the flywheel installed and use the flywheel lock on your genuine VW engine stand. OK, so you don't have one of those so bolt a 4 foot piece of angle iron iron to two of the clutch holes in the flywheel and you can easily have someone hold the crank with it.
Pat
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Thanks for everyone's responses. It turns out that the engine was only at "Top MOSTLY-Dead Center", not "Top ALL-Dead Center". There's a big difference between MOSTLY dead and ALL dead. (Princess Bride reference for those who are too young.) I removed the cam and the "hesitation" went away. Before I did that, I advance and retarted the timing 1 tooth, and the problem only got worse. Lesson learned. Don't set TDC this way unless you are desperate. And then if you do, make sure to turn it over by hand (which, of course, is always good advice any time you play with the timing), so you don't screw something up the first time you crank it.
Got the main studs and ARP2000 rod bolts installed. The rod bolts are from the Nissan 350Z application. (Thanks Dennis for figuring this out for me.) The bottom end should pretty much be bullet-proof now. Also installed the oil pickup tube and baffle. Should get the oil pan installed in the next few days, and then it will really start to look like an engine.
Pat, fortunately I have the tools for the crank bolt. Unfortunately, this is the third time I've purchased them (don't tell my wife). Each time I tell myself that I'll never again own a 5-cylinder, and get rid of them. Lately I've gotton out of the habit of selling my tools though. However, I have considered renting them out. Since I have pretty much every tool the Bentley calls for for timing the 5 and 6-cylinder diesels, I might as well help somebody out, and make some money on the side.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures120.jpg)
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This will be compatible with a 01E 6-speed if I ever decide to go that route. I'm hoping someone will come out with a kit to make installing a 01E into a type-44 a bolt-in affair. My other option is the tranny from a B3 80/90. This transmission will give me 23.2 MPH/1000. Still not great, but better.
We've done a number of type 44 01E conversions, it's very expensive and mostly bolt on with a few custom made parts.
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We've done a number of type 44 01E conversions, it's very expensive and mostly bolt on with a few custom made parts.
Good to know it can/has been done. Too bad it's so expensive.
Time for an update. I've been busy waiting for parts. The last of them should arrive on Thursday, and then I'll be ready to install the engine this weekend. One day I would like to drive this thing to Alaska, so I'm going a little overboard on maintenance items. I'm putting all new hoses in, including heater core hoses. I'm going to install them this week, while the engine is out, while they're still easy to get to. Once the engine is in, the next thing I'll do is set the crank to TDC using the flywheel marks, and then install the cam to make sure my binding issue is gone. So far I've wasted 4 cam seals, so they're not going in until I know the cam is there to stay.
7A oil pan with baffles and windage tray cleaned up and ready to go. Notice the funky expansion tank that the oil filter fits through. One cool aspect is that it can easily be removed to have a look at what's going on inside the bottom end.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures008.jpg)
Engine compartment cleaned and ready to go. No more CIS fuel injection nonsense.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures017.jpg)
Cut and flared the fuel lines for conversion to diesel. I kept the small one around incase I need it some day. The flaps that cover the tie rods were torn up, so I'll need to make some new ones before I drive it too far.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures015-1.jpg)
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You know, you can re-use those cam seals so long as they aren't damaged. At least on all the 1.6IDI and 1.9IDI you can. They don't get pressed or damaged or anything on install. The IM shaft, crank shaft and cam shaft all use the same one.
I've been using the same cam shaft seal and i've removed it at least 5 or 6 times. Still no leaks...
I feel crappy for only sharing this with you now. But perhaps your engine differs quite drastically. I mean, apart from the extra piston and all that jazz.
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whats another good use for a 5 cyl audi? its not going back in a 5000, if anything it would be a 90Q or a 4KQW if they even made them. what other sweet rides can you shoehorn one into? i remember hearing about the porsche 924?
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You know, you can re-use those cam seals so long as they aren't damaged.
I didn't know that. They probably are the same as the 1.6/1.9. The ones I took out each had a little scratch, so I didn't want to take any chances. Thanks for the advice though.
whats another good use for a 5 cyl audi? its not going back in a 5000, if anything it would be a 90Q or a 4KQW if they even made them. what other sweet rides can you shoehorn one into? i remember hearing about the porsche 924?
Yes, 924! That's what I want to do a couple of years down the road. I wonder if I'll still want to do it then?
Ok, I made my goal of getting the engine in on the 4th of July weekend. Sorry I haven't posted any pictures for so long. I've been making good progress though, and will hopefully be able to start it for the first time on the weekend of the 24th. It depends on whether the latest batch of parts arrives in time. Either way, I can probably go ahead and put the front sheet metal/bumper back on, so it will start looking like a proper car again. I will hopefully have a video for you in the next couple of weeks.
Diamond coated friction washer that goes between V-belt dampener pully and nose of the crank. By weight, the most expensive thing I've ever purchased aside from my wife's wedding ring. It works out to $26,400 per pound. :-)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures034.jpg)
Spec stage 2 clutch and resurfaced flywheel. Supposedly good for 400 ft/lb.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures024.jpg)
Cleaned up bell housing with new release bearing and other misc. parts:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures027.jpg)
Engine ready to go:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures030.jpg)
Engine installed, test fitting down pipe. Joining the old and new sections of exhaust should be as simple as a 2" to 2.25" adapter.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures042.jpg)
The taller engine changed the geometry of the original P/S bracket, so a custom one was made:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures039.jpg)
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You wouldn`t happen to have the spec sheet on the engine you re using do you?
Dimensions, availability, etc..?
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Are there pics I can't see in the last rabbid79 post?
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Yes, and when you see them make sure some kleenex is handy.
Thats awesome!!! Ya Audi
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some guy offered me $350 bucks for my WHOLE audi 5000 TD. i think i was justified in telling him to kick rocks, right?
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You wouldn`t happen to have the spec sheet on the engine you re using do you?
Dimensions, availability, etc..?
Pretty much a straight AAB with lots of bolt-ons. It's similar to a 1.9 AAZ, but with 1 extra cylinder. 79.5mm bore, 95.5 stroke, 22:1 compression ratio, etc. For North America, pretty much only available in Canada in the Eurovan. Lots sold in Germany and the UK in the T4 Transporter.
Are there pics I can't see in the last rabbid79 post?
Yes, lots of pics. Are you not able to see them?
some guy offered me $350 bucks for my WHOLE audi 5000 TD. i think i was justified in telling him to kick rocks, right?
That depends on the condition of the car. I paid $100 for the last 5000 TD I bought, but it was a basket case.
I forgot to mention what I learned about the "binding" issue. The first thing I did after installing the engine was set the timing with the timing marks on the flywheel and shims under the cam locking plate. I set the timing dead-on. I turned it over by hand, and wouldn't you know it, the "problem" was still there. That's when I realized that the binding sensation was actually occurring when the valves were actually starting to open. Each lifter has a little bit of give between when it first starts to compress, and when it actually presses down on the valves. I wasn't taking this into account in my earlier tests. I was just watching as the lobe first started to push down on the lifter, and didn't take into account when the valve actually started to move. So the problem really isn't a problem. This also explains why it doesn't happen in the same place when going the opposite direction.
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some guy offered me $350 bucks for my WHOLE audi 5000 TD. i think i was justified in telling him to kick rocks, right?
That depends on the condition of the car. I paid $100 for the last 5000 TD I bought, but it was a basket case.
I am the guy that offered RWR $350 for his 5000 TD. He told me it was a "worn out and burned a quart every 100 miles" and that he needed ether to get it to run. He also implied that the rest of the car was pretty crappy. But he was sure that the head was good, but he wouldn't guaranty that the head was even a usable core. I suspect the motor has major internal problems from the ether. A quart/ 100 miles is a major malfunction I think $350 was generous for a sh&#ter car with maybe a core motor in it. A running (w/ether anyway) basket case.
BTW, I only paid $250 for a nice '82 5000 TD with 117K on the clock. Nice car, good leather, new tires on perfect factory wheels, straight body/shiny paint. It has been on the Seattle CL for about 6 months. Started at a grand, I think, and took the only offer of $250. The DA PO blew a HG and let is sit for some number of weeks with water in all of the cylinders before he took it apart. It has a fresh motor in it but the cylinders have some minor pits. The head needs a line bore and a new/repaired cam. $200 worth of work but its 2 weeks out. I can do all of the head stuff myself, but I just don't have time. A core head I could do in an afternoon and be driving my new 5000 TD.
Still looking for parts. Mainly a block that will clean at .50 mm and a core head.
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Still looking for parts. Mainly a block that will clean at .50 mm and a core head.
I may have a head for you. If interested, PM me for details.
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Hmmm, rabbid79 what site are you using to host your images? I can take it off the blocked IP list for the ship i'm on's sat system. I'll make up a better story for the IT techs than so I can surf diesel porn from 450 miles east of St Johns Nfld... ;)
Any chance stage 2 of this project will be Tdi pistons & a bolt on 5 cyl head? Giles has built a 5 cyl mtdi pump already.
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Hmmm, rabbid79 what site are you using to host your images? I can take it off the blocked IP list for the ship i'm on's sat system. I'll make up a better story for the IT techs than so I can surf diesel porn from 450 miles east of St Johns Nfld...
Any chance stage 2 of this project will be Tdi pistons & a bolt on 5 cyl head? Giles has built a 5 cyl mtdi pump already.
Hey blackdogvan, I'm using Photobucket to host the pics. At the rate I'm going, stage 2 will adding a K&N filter, and stage 3 adding an intercooler. ;)
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Finally got to see the pics, very sweet. Really digging this thread!
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Got the car running a few nights ago. After priming and a new battery, it started right up. I must say, the sound of diesel emanating from this thing is so strange. Put the front end together and drove it for the first time today. I've put about 25 miles on it since. I was going to head out for a celebratory shake (milk, not diesel ;)) this evening, but when I went out to the garage, I was greeted by a rather large puddle of coolant under the right-hand side of the car. I think my block heater came partially out. It's the only thing on that side of the engine that could leak coolant. There aren't any other coolant lines on that side. With a flashlight, it looks like the block heater is crooked. I have had the engine up to operating temperature a couple of times before, but this was the first time I parked it in the garage with the hood closed after driving. I think I'll have to remove the down pipe to fix it, but that shouldn't be any big deal.
Giles was right, this pump puts out a lot of fuel. I need more boost to clean things up. The smoke isn't bad as long as I keep my foot out of it. The turbo makes a beautiful whistling sound pretty much all the time. Before I touch the boost I need to break it in and get the boost gauge/pyrometer installed.
The clutch is a little bit grabby, but not bad. I like the positive engagement. I took some measurements of the ride height before and after the engine swap. It rides about 5mm lower in the front with the heavier diesel engine.
I can't really comment on the power since it's not broken-in and I'm at stock boost (~10 PSI) with no intercooler. But I can tell you it's a hell of a lot quicker than the gas engine that was in it previously.
I'll try to get a video of it running in the next couple of days.
Needed to make a spacer to keep the over-run clutch on the starter from hitting the back side of the flywheel. You can also see the wires from the EGT thermocouple waiting to be connect to a pyrometer:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures064-1.jpg)
Custom crank case breather hose, air filter, and heat insulation for the large battery wire:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures049.jpg)
Custom glow plug relay installation:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures053.jpg)
I was able to get some new Hellas for a good price, so I installed them at the same time I put the front end back together:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures060-1.jpg)
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Why is there no intercooler?
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Why is there no intercooler?
The intercooler is "phase 2", along with the tachometer, cold-start advance, gauges, etc. I just wanted to get it to the point where I could start driving it on a daily basis. I don't have all of the parts I need for the intercooler installation yet.
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Looks amazing. You are definitely doing this right. Can't wait to hear what it feels like at 20 psi intercooled. :D Might make me rethink my engine swap in my CQ. ;)
Good work and I look forward to the updates.
Brendan
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Thanks for the compliments.
It was indeed the block heater that popped partially out. A word of advice for whoever installs a block heater: Make sure to pull on it to make sure it's snug. Don't just go off of how much torque you put to the tightening screw.
One of the next orders of business will be to bypass the cruise control vacuum pump to run the HVAC controls. The Bentley mentions a way to jumper the connector for testing purposes so that the pump always runs. It's just a matter of making sure that it doesn't always run, and only runs with key turned to "On".
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Nice build! Maybe I missed it, but what size head did Giles use for your pump? 11 or 12 mm?
Jason
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Hi Jason, I honestly don't know. As far as I know it's the same 10mm head as before. He said it's good for 250 HP at 30 lbs of boost, that's all I know. I assume that means the boost pin and spring are set up to linearly deliver fuel up to that much pressure.
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A few updates:
I have a little over 3000 miles on the engine now, and it runs pretty well. I think there's a slight miss at part throttle, but maybe I'm just being overly sensitive.
I did a couple of cold start tests just to see how it would perform. We had an 8*F morning last month. I left the car out overnight the night before just to make sure it was cold-soaked. I cycled the plugs twice and it started right up. Granted, it missed for the first 20-30 seconds, but was fine after that. It also gets up to operating temperature regardless of the outside temp.
I've had two oil leaks since the swap. One was from the VC gasket because it wasn't torqued down tight enough, and the other was from a leaky o-ring on the tube that connects to the intake manifold. The specific o-ring from Audi was NLA, and I couldn't find a suitable replacement, so I remedied the problem by sanding down the area on the tube that has the o-ring seat, and just installed a throttle body gasket from a turbo-gas car.
I've only completed two fuel economy tests, and am working on a third one right now. The first one averaged 31.75 MPG w/ stock all-season tires and conservative driving. The second one was 30.25 MPG w/ more spirited driving (Quattro + Snow = Fun). I changed a few things before the third test. I set the air pressure in the tires to 44 PSI, disconnected the LDA, turned the fuel screw 3/4 turn CCW, added Diesel Service to the tank, fixed the intake manifold/boost leak, and am keeping the car plugged in more at night. I get more than 600 miles out of a tank so it takes a while to compete one of these test, but so far it's looking good. When all is said and done, I think I'll be up 1-2 MPG over my first test.
I'll be glad when this test is done so I can reconnect the LDA and get some power back. Before I turned out the fuel screw, I was getting a lot of black smoke at medium-to-full throttle at low RPMs. It's just a light haze now. I do miss being able to smoke-screen jerks who are tail gating me though.
Messy intake manifold from boost/oil leak.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures130.jpg)
Modified intake pipe. This won't be around for long though. Intercooler install in progress...
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures133.jpg)
A couple of before and after engine swap shots. I really love the simplicity that comes from swapping from gas to diesel.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Dieselpictures076.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures116.jpg)
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Man that diesel looks way better!!
Good job ;D
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Man that diesel looks way better!!
Good job
Thanks. Latest fuel economy numbers are in: 32.6 MPG. Not as high as I had hoped, but considering this is 100% city driving in a 3400 lb. AWD car with less than ideal gearing, I guess it's ok. I may try one more fuel economy test (i.e. intentionally keeping my foot out of it) in a couple of months once the weather warms up a bit and I have the intercooler installed. I need to do it while I still have these skinny all-seasons on. Once the wide/heavy summer tires are on, it will be too late.
Speaking of intercoolers, here's the NOS one I purchased recently. The core is 7 x 13.25 x 3.5. I also bought a silicone "michelin man" hose. The factory rubber hoses don't last long, esp. at higher than stock boost. I just need a couple more parts and then it should be pretty much a bolt-on affiar.
These factory intercoolers have a reputation for blowing off the crimped end tanks at high pressure. I've even had it happen to me once. I was running about 16 lbs. of boost on an '86 5KTQ and blew the tanks off during a 1-2 shift. The Audi 5000s didn't have pop-off valves, so there was nowhere else for the pressure to go once the throttle body slammed shut. I don't think I'll have a problem running this at 20 lbs. on a diesel. I actually have a used spare intercooler that I may test my theory with initially... just in case.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures136.jpg)
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Sweet project, such a clean and well-cared for car! It looks like it's in better shape than my `94 S4! :o
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You got any videos of it running yet? I and everyone else would love to see it ;)
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Thanks guys. No video yet. I'd like to wait until I have the tachometer working and the intercooler, boost gauge, and EGT gauge installed. Then I'd like to have it dyno'd up in Salt Lake where there's a 4-wheel dyno. Probably get a video of it then.
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Sooooooo clean! The detail you've put into this build is amazing keep up the good work!
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One word, Sexy 8)
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Maybe even my favorite build thread ever.
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Thanks very much for the compliments guys. If we get the snow we've been promised this weekend, I'll try to get a video of it in the snow.
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wow ! Nice build ! I have always wanted to do that myself , just so damn hard to find 5cyl D's in Canada ! Keep it up and Videos are a must !
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*sigh* I've got cylinder envy. I wish this motor wasn't several inches too long to fit in my Fox. That and it'd make an already nose heavy design even more unwieldy. ::)
Very clean work. Just a joy to look at this thread, thanks.
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Just loving this. Great work.
Where is your boost set right now? Planning on keeping it at 20 psi max after the intercooler?
Brendan
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Thanks as usual for the compliments everyone. Brendan, I think the boost is around 16 PSI right now. I don't have my boost gauge permanently installed, but that's what it was last time I hooked it up. EGTs will ultimately dictate boost and fuel. I don't want to go much over 20 PSI on the turbo because I don't know how it will fare. I'm also hesitant to go much over 20 PSI on the intercooler. I will probably strap the end tanks as an extra safety precaution.
I was able to get the car officially registered as a diesel! In Utah County, it's a matter of taking it down to the county emissions station in Spanish Fork. This is where they used to do all of the emissions testing for diesels on a dynamometer before they stopped doing it a few years ago. Anyway, the guy came out and looked at it, listened to it run, and said "Yep, it's a diesel". Then he filled out and signed an emissions exemption form and sent me down to the DMV in Provo. I just had to produce the title, the exemption form, and $5 and they retitled it for me. Piece of cake for anybody doing a gas to diesel conversion in Utah County.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures138Modified.jpg)
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Have you figured out the cold start plumbing yet?
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Have you figured out the cold start plumbing yet?
I assume you mean the automatic cold start advance that uses the "wax-stat"? I had Giles removed all of that stuff. Now there's a simple cold start lever on the back side of the pump. So far, I haven't had to rely on it to actually start the engine when it's really cold, but when I do use it, the engine stumbles a lot less and has faster hot-starts. I was planning on using a solenoid to manually actuate it, but probably won't worry about it until it becomes a necessity.
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"Stage 2" is officially complete. Installed the intercooler last weekend. Wow, what a difference! Night and Day. As you would expect with a relatively large 5 cylinder, a long stroke, and long intake runners, the engine is definitely happier down in the lower RPMs. Now you can really feel the torque down there.
Took an 8 hour trip to Colorado a couple of months ago. My gear ratios are killing me! 27 MPG on the freeway and 32 MPG in town? Honestly though, unless a 01A with better ratios falls into my lap, I can't ever see myself doing much about it. I might start to run some taller winter tires, but that's about all.
There's not much left upgrade-wise. It would benefit from a larger exhaust, but it may be a while before that happens. If you look at the top of the "throttle-body", you can see where I tapped a 1/8" NPT hole for a possible future methanol/water injection nozzle. It seems most of them use this thread pitch.
Beyond that, I'm working on the gauges, better speakers, replacing the torn shift boot (sew one up from scratch since they're NLA), recharge the A/C, and a G60 caliper/rotor upgrade.
Here's the modified throttle body. I enlarged the original holes where the shaft when through, and tapped for 1/4 NPT plugs. I also had to enlarge the holes in the mounting ears and the gasket because the diesels use larger screws.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures163.jpg)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures166.jpg)
Here I had to remove the compressor housing to rotate 180 so I could use the lower intercooler hose from the turbo-gas cars. I couldn't just rotate it in place because too much stuff was in the way. Fortunately my friend Dennis had a brand new o-ring for this application. I don't know where he finds this stuff!
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures172.jpg)
Relocated air filter and the crankcase ventilation tube.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures184.jpg)
1/8 NPT hole/nozzle for possible future water/meth upgrade.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures187.jpg)
And, of course, the intercooler.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures190.jpg)
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nice swap ;D, but WTF is up with the motor having the IP on the back side of the motor? 2 timing belts, WTF?!? ???
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Thanks. All of the VW/Audi inline 5 and 6 cylinder diesel engines work this way.
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Thanks. All of the VW/Audi inline 5 and 6 cylinder diesel engines work this way.
that's so weird....
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Looks great!!!!
27mpg on the highway? Wow, my 20v I-5 gas CQ does 34 MPG on the highway. Damn that doesn't sound right...
What trans are you running now? Does this car have the 4.11 final drive? I have a 01A from a Audi 90 in my CQ, has slightly taller 3rd, 4th, and 5th than the stock CQ trans, unfortunately I don't know what RPM's I am turning at speed since my tach doesn't work. :P But I know that helped my MPG situation a little. I have a 6-speed 01E that needs rebuilt, if you haven't found a trans by the time I get it in the car, I'll sell you the 01A for cheap if it will work for you. :)
Brendan
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i want a 4kQ...
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Looks great!!!!
27mpg on the highway? Wow, my 20v I-5 gas CQ does 34 MPG on the highway. Damn that doesn't sound right...
What trans are you running now? Does this car have the 4.11 final drive? I have a 01A from a Audi 90 in my CQ, has slightly taller 3rd, 4th, and 5th than the stock CQ trans, unfortunately I don't know what RPM's I am turning at speed since my tach doesn't work. But I know that helped my MPG situation a little. I have a 6-speed 01E that needs rebuilt, if you haven't found a trans by the time I get it in the car, I'll sell you the 01A for cheap if it will work for you.
Brendan
Thanks Brendan. Yes, it has the 4.11 final drive. This engine just isn't efficient at these RPMs (3500-4000). I appreciate the offer on the tranny. That's the simplest one I could install. It would give me about 2 MPH/1000 RPM in 5th gear. I'm also considering a 01A with the 3.89 ratios. There are several that are close to me for not much money. Of course, I'll have to swap the rear diff as well, but it shouldn't be too bad. I'm ok swapping parts for parts as long as there isn't too much fabrication. That kind of thing drives me crazy. Probably mostly because I don't have the tools for that kind of work.
If I installed a different tranny, I would also install a new (heavier) flywheel. I'm sick of the gear chatter. I wonder if the flywheel from the 2.5 TDI with the 01E transmission would work. Or maybe I could have 034 machine an extra heavy steel one for me.
i want a 4kQ...
Me too. ROR, that we be a good candidate for your 2.0TD.
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i want a 4kQ...
Me too. ROR, that we be a good candidate for your 2.0TD.
thats kinda what i was thinking.. and 4ks are pretty LITTLE.. a 2.0 TD5 would be pimpin in a little quattro car..
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ROR, what would it take to get your 5-cyl TD running?
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ROR, what would it take to get your 5-cyl TD running?
it runs. well, it did last time i drove it. but it used about as much oil as it did fuel. someone did a single tank Vegi setup on it, MESSED EVERYTHING UP.. almost didnt make it home. when i did get home with the car, that next morning the car would not run. took the fuel filter off, and it was ALMOST COMPLETELY FULL of glycerine... so uh, dare i say, that this engine has overdosed on coke.. im positive it needs a bore job, probably all the way to 1mm O/S and it needs to have everything else gone over also. as long as ive owned this car, it takes a TINY shot of ether to make it run.. some say i probably destroyed it from ether, but usually, wouldnt your head gasket let go before you bent a rod, or blew a pre-chamber out, or cracked main caps? dunno why it would happen soo easy on a TD5..
so, i need a full gasket set, probably 5 right way industrial pistons, some machine work, some GOOD rings maybe total seal or something like that, i really like gapless rings.
this engine is either going in a 4kQ, or a 88 toyota 4runner..
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Good to know the condition isn't too bad. I thought it had a blown head gasket and water in it or something. I would vote for the 4KQ swap. You could probably have it done in a couple of weekends. If there are any parts you need for your rebuild, let me know. I have a couple of spares.
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nice job :o
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Good to know the condition isn't too bad. I thought it had a blown head gasket and water in it or something. I would vote for the 4KQ swap. You could probably have it done in a couple of weekends. If there are any parts you need for your rebuild, let me know. I have a couple of spares.
now all i need to do is to find a 4kQ that someone doesnt want a premium for..
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ROR, check this out...http://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/2462214698.html (http://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/2462214698.html)
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ROR, check this out...http://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/2462214698.html (http://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/2462214698.html)
i want an old one tho.. and thats about 2k miles too far away.. unless there is significant things better about the newer body style?
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The only "problem" with the "old" ones is that they were only imported in '84. There are just too few of them around. Actually, I want an '84 too. If you go with the newer body, you get 3 more year's worth to choose from.
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The only "problem" with the "old" ones is that they were only imported in '84. There are just too few of them around. Actually, I want an '84 too. If you go with the newer body, you get 3 more year's worth to choose from.
i will see what i come up with. ive seen old 4000s around..
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It really makes for a GREAT car! A couple of years ago, I was grabbin' some grub at the local mokdoonald's with the woman and we saw 2 audi's pull in. It grabbed my attention, as one was a CLEAN '86 4kq and the other a '95.5 S6 wagon. Anyways, I chatted the guys up and they ended up picking up the 4000 in PA and in the back of the wagon was a 2.0TD I5! They explained the swap they were planning and it sounded great! Looked good too!
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It really makes for a GREAT car! A couple of years ago, I was grabbin' some grub at the local mokdoonald's with the woman and we saw 2 audi's pull in. It grabbed my attention, as one was a CLEAN '86 4kq and the other a '95.5 S6 wagon. Anyways, I chatted the guys up and they ended up picking up the 4000 in PA and in the back of the wagon was a 2.0TD I5! They explained the swap they were planning and it sounded great! Looked good too!
I would really like to see a nice 4KQTD with the 2.0 TD. Sounds like something Audi should have done from the factory back in the 80's. It would have been especially cool if they made a "GTD" version of it with a little hotter motor and some sporty BBS wheels.
Anyway, it's official:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures204.jpg)
Here's the oil check valve I've been looking for for about a year now. Fortunately, there was a discussion about these valves on another forum that I happened to stumble across.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures207.jpg)
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I love the plate.
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I know this has been asked before, possibly by me but all this talk of swaps in 4kq's has refreshed my interest in putting my 1.6 into a 4kq, is there any reasonable way to make the 4 cylinder engines and 5 cylinder transmissions work together? A reasonably hopped up 1.6td would net you similar horsepower figures to the stock 4kq's 115hp and more torque the issue becomes gearing and transmission options.
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I know this has been asked before, possibly by me but all this talk of swaps in 4kq's has refreshed my interest in putting my 1.6 into a 4kq, is there any reasonable way to make the 4 cylinder engines and 5 cylinder transmissions work together? A reasonably hopped up 1.6td would net you similar horsepower figures to the stock 4kq's 115hp and more torque the issue becomes gearing and transmission options.
4 cylinder and 5 cylinder bell housing patterns are WAY different. you would definitely need an adapter plate..
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Or change newer transmission with both patterns.
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yea, that would work GREAT, but i dont think there are NEARLY as many of those trannies around..
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Or change newer transmission with both patterns.
I think MJF is talking about changing to the 01A and 01E transmissions that can accomodate both 4 and 5 cylinder engines. There's lots of these trannys around (80/90/A4/S4, etc.), but they're not a bolt in replacement for the 016 transmission in the 4KQ. Still, there's a lot of guys that have converted 016 cars to 01E, so I know it can be done.
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Thats right. I have 01E from urS4 waiting to fitting in my 80. Now it has 4 cyl 016, but I've undestanded that those does not exist at states.
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Now it has 4 cyl 016, but I've undestanded that those does not exist at states.
Didn't you guys get those 4-cyl 016 trannys in 2-door Audi 80s with quattro or something? I've heard of a 016 that can accomodate the 4-cyl bolt pattern, but never actually seen one.
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It's stock 80 quattro 4 door transmission with 4,55 gearing. Originally 90hp 1,8 carb engine.
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That's cool. I've never heard of transmission with 4.55 gearing in these cars. But with a 90HP carb'd engine, I can see why it would need one.
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What you need is a nice 01E from a Euro TDI.
I have one in stock right now... 4.11 gears too.
It would be around 2000 rpm at 60mph. ;D
Cheers
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Hey Martin, thanks for the offer. Now that my release bearing is starting to fail, and the gear chatter is driving me crazy, I'm planning on a tranny swap in the next month or so.
I've really thought hard about swapping in a 01E, but all told, it would be close to $6000 for the swap which would include rebuilt tranny, dual mass flywheel, clutch, PP, 01E-specific aluminum brackets (extremely rare for the type 44 cars), rubber mounts, S4 shifter box, axles, bearings, propeller shaft, slave cylinder, hydraulic line, shipping, etc.
For ease of installation, and to keep the price down, I think I'm going to have Scott at Advanced Automotion build a diesel-friendly 01A for me though. I can get a 0.641 5th gear that will give me ~28 MPH/1000 RPM while keeping the 4.11 gears. That's compared to the ~21 MPH/1000 RPM I'm at right now.
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BTW, have any of you guys seen this Audi-turned-snowplow - A.K.A. the "Plaudi"? http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43016&hilit=plaudi (http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43016&hilit=plaudi)
I think it would be cool to build one, but with some 5-cyl turbo diesel love. ;)
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Time for a major update:
One year and 8000 miles since I finished the motor swap, and not a single issue, until about 4 months ago when I started hearing what I thought was a noisy release bearing. When I pushed in the clutch pedal, it would make some kind of grinding noise. I monitored it, and the noise was steadily getting louder day by day. To postpone the inevitable, I tried limping it along by speed shifting, and not keeping the clutch pressed it at intersections, etc. (The reason I do this is because I can't stand the gear chatter when it idles in neutral.)
So after about 2 months of this, I was heading out one morning, got to the bottom of the street, and BAM, it sounded like all hell was breaking loose inside the bellhousing. I turned around and parked it in a strategic spot in the garage with lots of room to work around the car, knowing that it wasn't coming out until the transmission had been replaced. I have always said that if it ever came to pulling out the transmission, I would upgrade to one with better ratios along the way.
A few days later, I started digging in to it. It took 2 days to actually get the transmission removed. It's a pretty labor-intensive process, especially when you don't have a lift. Anyway, I discovered that it wasn't the release bearing or pilot bearing that was making noise, but a strap which had broken on the pressure plate. It proceeded to flop around inside the bell housing and left some pretty nice grooves, and lots of "sparkles".
After a lot of back and forth on which transmission to use, I ultimately went with a 01A from a '89 90 Quattro. It has the same 4.11:1 final drive and 1st and 2nd gears as my old one, but roughly 10% higher 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Still not great, but a step in the right direction. Also, in an attempt to put an end to the noisy gear chatter, I purchased a dual-mass flywheel from a '93 Audi S4 application. Interestingly, it uses a solid disc. Since I never abused the old clutch, I suspect that the high compression of the diesel engine is what ultimately lead to the pressure plate failure. The DM flywheel should hopefully help to dampen things out, and save the new PP from a similar fate.
In preparing the new transmission, I had to swap on the 108 mm axle flanges from the original box, since the "new" box had 100 mm flanges. I also replaced the input shaft seal, the 3 output shaft seals, and various o-rings here and there. The original rubber transmission mounts had also started cracking, so I ordered new ones. I’m also doing the slave and master cylinders "while I’m in there".
This work to the tranny required the purchase of many new application-specific tools. I have gathered quite a large assortment now, and have decided to start a little side business renting them out.
Hopefully I'll be driving it again by next weekend.
Offending pressure plate.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures219.jpg)
Original box completely covered in grime. Still, it was amazingly clean on the inside. I chopped off the input shaft to use as a pressure plate alignment tool, instead of using those cheap plastic tools that are usually included with a clutch kit. Before I scrap it, I also stole a couple more parts off of it like the axle flanges, senders, torsen diff., front diff., and front diff cover.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures231.jpg)
Parts and new tools:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures221.jpg)
"New” box cleaned up, filled up with fresh Motul, seals replaced, and ready to go:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures226.jpg)
New flywheel installed and inner CV cups cleaned up:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/jolsen7745/Audi100Pictures237.jpg)
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it takes a TINY shot of ether to make it run.. some say i probably destroyed it from ether, but usually, wouldnt your head gasket let go before you bent a rod, or blew a pre-chamber out, or cracked main caps? dunno why it would happen soo easy on a TD5..
Not really. I have seen dozens of ether wasted diesels w/o head gasket issues.
The idea of 2.0TD 4TQ or 4000 is intriguing, however.
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it takes a TINY shot of ether to make it run.. some say i probably destroyed it from ether, but usually, wouldnt your head gasket let go before you bent a rod, or blew a pre-chamber out, or cracked main caps? dunno why it would happen soo easy on a TD5..
Not really. I have seen dozens of ether wasted diesels w/o head gasket issues.
The idea of 2.0TD 4TQ or 4000 is intriguing, however.
dude, weve been over this too many times.. its fine.. i dont even care anymore. i paid almost nothing for the car, and if i killed it, big deal.. its my car..
the engine needs a FULL REBUILD anyways, so its not like it even matters. ill let you know how bad i killed it once i pull it apart..
im leaning towards it being fine tho.. it never DIRECTLY ingested ether.. just a shot on the air filter..
but if its dead, so be it.. learning experience..
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Oh, I doubt that you ruined it with such a small shot of ether. It does not take much to kill one though, if the stars are all aligned correctly. On the good side most "ether" these days is mostly some kind of light oil like WD40. They call it "upper cylinder lubricant". Even JDs own stuff for cold (<40*F) starting its old tractors is only 80% anymore. Beware of that old can sitting on the shelf, though.
I would like to find a 5G TD block myself. I have a complete very low miles (5000) motor with rusted bores. The virtually new .50mm over pistons would make an old TD motor into a new one.
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im gonna drop my TD5 in a 1st gen toyota 4runner.. eventually.
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Got the car back on the road this past weekend. I'm VERY happy with the dual mass flywheel. The gear chatter is completely gone! Clutch engagement is nice and smooth. I was also able to get rid of the starter motor spacer plate that I was using. The back of the new flywheel is pretty smooth, and there's nothing back there to get in the way of the bendix clutch.
The transmission grinds a tiny bit going from 1st into 2nd, but it could either be misadjusted linkage, or the hybrid GL4/GL5 spec oil that I'm using. The shifter leans a slight bit to the left, so when I install the short shift kit, I'll adjust the way it centers and see if that helps.
With the installation of the S4 (engine code AAN) clutch/FW, I'm up to parts off of something like 10 different engines from years spanning from the early '80s to the mid-90's. Pretty cool that the VW/Audi parts are so interchangable.
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Had a chance to take the car on a little road trip this week. This is the first real highway test since the new transmission and intercooler. Took some advice from a friend, and tried to keep it at about 62 MPH the whole way. Dialed the fuel back about an 1/8 of a turn, filled the tires up to 37 PSI, and away I went. It was a 335 mile trip, and at the end I was treated to 36.5 MPG! I was able to get 200 miles out of the first quarter of a tank!
On the return trip home, I bumped the speed up to about 67 MPH, and the fuel economy was much worse. 62 MPH is definitely the sweet spot for one of these Audis.
Anyway, since the project is starting to focus less on the engine and more on the rest of the car, I've started another thread over here on MotorGeek where there seems to be more interest in older Audis. http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45746 (http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45746)
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Had a chance to take the car on a little road trip this week. This is the first real highway test since the new transmission and intercooler. Took some advice from a friend, and tried to keep it at about 62 MPH the whole way. Dialed the fuel back about an 1/8 of a turn, filled the tires up to 37 PSI, and away I went. It was a 335 mile trip, and at the end I was treated to 36.5 MPG! I was able to get 200 miles out of the first quarter of a tank!
On the return trip home, I bumped the speed up to about 67 MPH, and the fuel economy was much worse. 62 MPH is definitely the sweet spot for one of these Audis.
Anyway, since the project is starting to focus less on the engine and more on the rest of the car, I've started another thread over here on MotorGeek where there seems to be more interest in older Audis. http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45746 (http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45746)
theres never any interest over here because this thread only gets updated about once every 6-8 months it seems like.. i really enjoyed this thread while it was still active..
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Those guys just want to drool on your wheels anyway...
I've been following your updates with interest, as your car is somewhat closer to mine than the FWD's in a way.
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Those guys just want to drool on your wheels anyway...
I've been following your updates with interest, as your car is somewhat closer to mine than the FWD's in a way.
i also followed this topic pretty closely, until it quit being updated..
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I can't beeline your in Utah and i'm just now setting this thread! Actually makes me a little sad, would have lived to helped you with it.
In any case..
Sending you a PM.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk
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Thanks guys. Now that the conversion is complete, there isn't much to talk about engine-wise. But if you're into old Audis specifically, then the other thread should have lots of info you'll be interested in. Just posted some stuff on LED backlighting over there.
Thanks Dan, sent you a PM back.
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Thanks guys. Now that the conversion is complete, there isn't much to talk about engine-wise. But if you're into old Audis specifically, then the other thread should have lots of info you'll be interested in. Just posted some stuff on LED backlighting over there.
Thanks Dan, sent you a PM back.
im definitely interested in old Audis, im in the process of purchasing an 87 Audi GT coupe.. its in SUPER good shape.. probably going to rebuild my 2.0TD and build an Audi GTD coupe ;)
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im definitely interested in old Audis, im in the process of purchasing an 87 Audi GT coupe.. its in SUPER good shape.. probably going to rebuild my 2.0TD and build an Audi GTD coupe ;)
That would be very cool, and also very straight forward. Should be pretty light and have a good power-to-weight ratio. There's a nice GT running around here that I see once in a while.
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im definitely interested in old Audis, im in the process of purchasing an 87 Audi GT coupe.. its in SUPER good shape.. probably going to rebuild my 2.0TD and build an Audi GTD coupe ;)
That would be very cool, and also very straight forward. Should be pretty light and have a good power-to-weight ratio. There's a nice GT running around here that I see once in a while.
the one im looking to get, is tornado red, and is very straight..
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im definitely interested in old Audis, im in the process of purchasing an 87 Audi GT coupe.. its in SUPER good shape.. probably going to rebuild my 2.0TD and build an Audi GTD coupe ;)
That would be very cool, and also very straight forward. Should be pretty light and have a good power-to-weight ratio. There's a nice GT running around here that I see once in a while.
the one im looking to get, is tornado red, and is very straight..
Nice, post pics of it once you get it. I had an '86 4KQ once, but it was tornado "pink".
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im definitely interested in old Audis, im in the process of purchasing an 87 Audi GT coupe.. its in SUPER good shape.. probably going to rebuild my 2.0TD and build an Audi GTD coupe ;)
That would be very cool, and also very straight forward. Should be pretty light and have a good power-to-weight ratio. There's a nice GT running around here that I see once in a while.
the one im looking to get, is tornado red, and is very straight..
Nice, post pics of it once you get it. I had an '86 4KQ once, but it was tornado "pink".
its out in my driveway, but the grille and bumper are not installed right now. i was doing a timing belt on it, then he decided he wanted to sell it, so rather than have to pay me to fix the car, and then find a buyer, i offered to buy it as it sits, for a cheaper price..
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Sounds like you got it for a good price then. What transmission does that car use? Some 016 variation?
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Sounds like you got it for a good price then. What transmission does that car use? Some 016 variation?
idk, whatever trans an 87 GT coupe comes factory with.. ive not checked exactly what trans it is, but its a hydraulic operated clutch..
and i know it turns about 2600 revs at 60 mph..
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Sounds like you got it for a good price then. What transmission does that car use? Some 016 variation?
idk, whatever trans an 87 GT coupe comes factory with.. ive not checked exactly what trans it is, but its a hydraulic operated clutch..
and i know it turns about 2600 revs at 60 mph..
I'm just thinking you'll probably want to get a hold of a flywheel from the N/A 2.0D 5-speed version of the 5000, since it's probably a little heavier than what's on there now. You don't want the gear chatter to drive you crazy like mine did me. My guess is the tranny in the coupe is probably similar to the tranny that was in the 5000.
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The transmission grinds a tiny bit going from 1st into 2nd, but it could either be misadjusted linkage, or the hybrid GL4/GL5 spec oil that I'm using. The shifter leans a slight bit to the left, so when I install the short shift kit, I'll adjust the way it centers and see if that helps.
Generally once transmissions start grinding in gear, you have metal to metal contact on the gear/operating collar and it's only a matter of time that the particular gears will fail to work. Might want to budget for a gearbox repair in the future. Luckily 01A parts are not terribly expensive.
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Finally, a video :)
http://youtu.be/XVP1p0f2Oik
(http://youtu.be/XVP1p0f2Oik)
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I LOVE seeing quality builds like this. I don't have the skill myself to do it, so I live vicariously through all your guys'.
Congratulations. It looks great.
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Very nice ride. Hope you're mileage went up with the tranny swa.
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I thought the remedy for "chatter" in gear is downshifting. My 7.3T will do it if I lug it. Just considered it a audible downshift indicator. Was yours rattling at normal driving loads and speeds?
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Nice job!!!! :)
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Nice build Sir!
Where did you end up on the water/meth injection?
I read every page and only found it mentioned once at the beginning of the thread (unless I missed it)
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Thanks for the compliments guys.
The gear chatter I'm referring to was pretty much always there at any speed, and when idling in neutral. It isn't the type you're referring to with your 7.3, though I do still get a little bit of that if I lug it too much. No, this chatter was the same kind of thing you get with a lightweight flywheel. Except I had a 28 pound monster flywheel on there and it still did it. The only thing that solved it was the dual mass flywheel.
Didn't ever get anywhere with the methanol injection. May still do it one day, but right now I'm actually thinking about selling the car to help put time and money into a business.