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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Baxter on April 09, 2006, 06:43:53 pm

Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 09, 2006, 06:43:53 pm
Okay, so reading about theres plenty of mods to do, some I have already done.
This is all well and good in a small car but when a small displacement engine is fitted to something a bit bigger, like a T3 (Vanagon) then is tuning the engine going to put any un needed stress on whats already a overworked engine?
For some reason VW lowered the output of the 1.6TD fitted to the T3 to 70hp from 80hp as found in the Golf. Vw being VW there must be a good reason behind this, or maybe it was a taxation thing? Or maybe they thought that the engine would be under less stress and last longer with a slightly lower output.
As it is these engines seem to last about 100K before needing a new head, but you hear stories of the same engine in lighter cars doing much more! My own Caddy is up to 263K although saying that I've just cursed it!

I have already fitted the MKI Golf GTI oil cooler and sat the cooler under the middle of the van, I also have a Passat 1.9 TDI intercooler sat behind the left hand rear light and air is ducted from the air vent in the pillar over the cooler and out downwards.
I have the GTD injectors to go in and there is a K&N fitted in the  original air box im just concerned as to how far to go with the boost pressure and fuelling without killing the engine pulling nigh on 2 tonnes around!
The VW T3 TD has a bigger radiator fan than the normal petrol and Diesel T3's, the the cab floor is a different shape to accomodate the bigger fan so I don't think that that will be a problem, specially with the oil cooler too. As you probably know the GTI oil cooler uses a type 1 style oil cooler, but the type 4 cooler is the same design but much larger in capacity so I have one of these to fit.

Any words of wisdom?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on April 09, 2006, 07:21:24 pm
When your EGT gets too high, back off or replace the engine?  I think it realy is that simple.  With the 5:31 van axle, it may not be working much harder than it would be in a car.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 09, 2006, 07:36:42 pm
Final drive is 4,57. It's a 2.1 caravelle 5 speed manual with LSD
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 10, 2006, 05:51:14 pm
Not having used a EGT gauge before, what temperatures should be be expecting?
I've found a sensibly prices gauge and thermocouple in the UK very similar to the VDO gauges that I already have but the suppliers are on their holidays at the moment so Im awaiting their return.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: jtanguay on April 10, 2006, 06:37:14 pm
If I were you, I would definitely install gauges of all types, to monitor oil temp oil pres boost, and egt.

Try to keep the motor in low gears when going uphill and don't floor it when going up and it should last a long time.  Just remember that peak torque drops off around 3000 rpm, and max hp is around 4500-5000.   Take your time to accel, but on a flat road you could really push the engine without worries.  Listen to how the engine speaks (it will grumble and shake if it doesn't like the workload) and downshift accordingly.   Keep an eye on gauges and if she doesnt move when you depress the pedal, then ease off of it. Only problem with the higher rpm's (but not too high) is fuel consumption.  Use synthetic as added protection too.

The lower compression ratio might be a good idea as well.  There is no reason the engine shouldn't survive 400'000k+ if you don't beat it.  for egt its max 1600F... in your setup I would try to keep it lower than 1200 for maximum longetivity.

thats my 2 cents
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 10, 2006, 06:52:27 pm
All the other gauges are in there, s'only the EGT im short.
These look sensibly priced..

http://airworlduk.com/falcon4.html

Whats the crack with the thermocouple? can it be extended? The wires I mean, it's going in a T3 so it's a long way from the engine to the driver!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Otis2 on April 11, 2006, 12:14:26 am
Andrew & Mr. B - I'm curious what oil temps you experience with your 1.6 TD installs.  I take it you're both running K24 turbos?

With my AAZ running the factory-original AAZ exhaust manifold & K03 turbo, my oil temp would always be at least 220 F at 70 mph, and it would easily hit 240 F with hills & headwinds.  

Replacement of the oil cooler with a larger Passat PD oil cooler did very little.  But replacement of the stock AAZ exhaust manifold and K03 turbo with a 1.6 TD exhaust manifold and T3 turbo has done a LOT for the oil temp.  I can't seem to break 200 F oil temperature now, no matter how hard I flog it.  I will have to wait for summer temperatures to really test it, though.

How much boost are you two running on these 1.6 TD installs?  Andrew, since you seem to have the gauges, when you hit 1250 F for EGT, what boost pressure and oil temperature would you be seeing at that point?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 11, 2006, 05:42:40 pm
Can't comment either yet, I had a mechanical TDI in there last, that thing never warmed up! I drove 500 miles through France at full chat and the oil temp managed once to get to 50degrees C!!
I've just redone the wiring in my engine bay tonight, using the stock GTI oilcooler and sender, also done away with the buzer of doom and converted back to a standard on off no buzz oil warning system
Hopefully, going for MOT (Ministry Of Transport) test on good Friday, new brakes all round, new poly bushes, new AVO suspension the thing should go straight through, hopefully!
Then I have to tax it then do a shake down as it's not seen the road in 12 months, infact it still has a full tank of fuel from the same bus show I am trying to get it back on the road for!
13 hour days rock!  :cry:
As for the M-tdi, it's sat in the yard getting rained on! Going to remove the pump soon, and turbo and bin the rest, no time!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Otis2 on April 11, 2006, 07:10:59 pm
Wow, oil temp of 50 C is only about 125 F.  You'd never boil the condensation out of your oil.  That's too much of a good thing!

My Westy has worse aerodynamics and heavier curb weight than your van, but even still...

Can't understand why you would be getting such low oil temps.  As Andrew suggested, high oil temps are usually the bane of a TD vanagon conversion.  Oil temps always worried me a lot sooner than my EGT worried me, even when I was running the small K03 turbo.  If my VDO gauge can be trusted, then I'm not getting more than 1100 F (pre-turbo probe) regardless of abuse, so EGTs are pretty safe.

Is the extreme low oil temperature the reason why you're now binning the m-TDI?  Maybe it's a symptom of the injection pump underfuelling the engine, in that it never heats up properly?  So, maybe your pump choice for the m-TDI was not ideal?  We've all read that the AAZ pump "sort of" works with a VW TDI, but underfuels it.  Maybe your Ford or Fiat Chroma pump falls into the same category.

Otherwise, it seems like a big step backwards for you to swap your m-TDI for a (relatively) stock 1.6 TD.

Best of luck for the MOT.

Also, please let us know what turbo you're running on the 1.6 TD (and the old m-TDI for curiosity's sake, too).
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 13, 2006, 07:00:11 pm
Turbo is the stock KKK on both,
M-TDI, a lot was ignorance on my part, for which I would love to do it all again but differently as now I know more and I think I could get it to work well.
I would bin the JX LDA and fit a upright one!
Mount the intercooler proplerly.

Im going to remove the pump and 110hp injectors and keep them for a rainy day, I think me trying to get it to perform as it should and messing with the boost pressure is what finally killed it, think I went too far.

It was great when it ran, quiet, quick to sart and economical but to sort it out would have been hassle, I just wanted to sell the van at the time and thought no one would buy it with a half arsed TDI in there, reverting back to a IDI 1.6TD seemed the better choice to sell the van.
As things have panned out looks like I will be keeping it as it looks ace! and I lived in the thing for 6 months in a car park in Chamonix France and did a winter snowboarding season out of it with my girlfriend I don't think I could part with it! Too many good memories.

Trouble is with the T3 they are very low geared and with the TDI producing it's power at lower revs the van was crippled on the Motorway. Without spending massive amounts on a new crown wheel and pinion to get it to work anywhere near where it should it was always going to be a bind to drive. Quick off the mark, *** on the move.

This way, with the 1.6TD it fits straight in and works as it should. A few tweeks here and there to liven it up should make the difference. as a IDI it would sit quite happily at 80 mph on the motorway, with the TDI 80 was a push.
There was also the hybrid clutch, stock clutch is 215mm, this ain't man enough for a TDI so I ran a hybrid clutch, Audi flywheel, LT friction disc and a cover plate from something else, can't remember.. Because coverplate was larger I had to remove the timing marks for it to fit the bell housing, which, er, left me without proper timing marks! bit of a git to set the timing.
Everything was a comprimise, I didn't want to spend a fortune on parts for it not to work so it was thrown together.
Brilliant learning experience, loved it, learnt alot about Diesels, I will look more into it when I have time but with my garage only being 1 year old and with a baby on the way spare time for playing isn't really on the cards at the moment, just want something that works, as it should.
 :)
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 14, 2006, 12:35:55 pm
MOT Passed!
Yey. well he did have no choice as I do that much business with him he could hardly fail it!
Emmisions test was a bit scarey as the engine had been run around the yard after being built and there we were revving the nads off it for the smoke test! Heh, it survived although the first rev was a bit smokey but what do you expect for an engine built from bits and pieces laying around the garage!
it's settled down now, bit slow but it is in standard form, 70hp and 2 tonnes is never going to be quick!
Gave the fuel screw a bit of a tweek to make it a bit more driveable and it's now sat outside the hous with smoking brakes! still not bedded in yet...

I think there maybe some confusion over the oil cooler, in Europe our MKI (A1) GTi's had a remote oil cooler, this is what I have fitted to my engine.
The filter head has a thermostat and is drilled and tapped for 2 oil lines that go to a remote cooler mounted next to the radiator. The cooler they useis a Type 1 item on a special bracket.
The oil pressure switch is removed and a M10x10 (Old sender hole) to M18 adapter is used to supply the turbo with oil.
There is a drilling for an oil temp sender.
This is why I disabled the buzzer of doom and now I just run with the VDO sender in the back of the head.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: carrizog60 on April 14, 2006, 03:09:20 pm
why are those gauges on the link so cheap?
haven´t put one yet because they were expensive but those are 23 for the gauge and 15 for the thermocouples?

what is needed to put it to work?only those 2 things? :?:
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 15, 2006, 05:37:16 am
I presume so!
Prices are in pounds remember! And there is VAT (Value Added Tax) at 17.5% too.
Whats £22? about €35?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 15, 2006, 09:44:14 am
Initial road test is promising!
I taxed the thing this morning and set off on a shake down.
At the moment we are stock with intercooler...

http://www.aumb39.dsl.pipex.com/uploads/intercooler01.jpg

http://www.aumb39.dsl.pipex.com/uploads/intercooler02.jpg

....and oil cooler.

Normally, T3's run with the water temp gauge needle bang in the middle of the scale, just over the LED already the needle is now just at the bottom of the LED so it's cooler than stock.

After a long climb up a locl hill I stopped at the top to just have a check around for leaks etc, intercooler was hot! like, hot! oil cooler was warm. Im really quite surprised at how much heat was coming off the intercooler, made me wonder how hot the air actually is and how the standard non intercooler ones go on!

As I have been running around like a pillock trying to get the thing on the road the only gause wired up is the boost gauge, which is running at .5bar max.

As for the shake down, it seemed okay, I thought the only way to get the van to play up is to get the van somewhere really bad, like the town centre on a saturday afternoon, so guess where the throttle linkage decided to part compant with the pedal!? yep, right slap bang in the town centre outside McDonalds with all the homeys in their Cracksuits looking on with the feds (Police) behind me at the lights! great!
Heh, belt off, door open and a quick fiddle with the pedal got it clipped back on and off we went!

Also, gave the max fuel screw a bit of a twiddle yesterday as it was a bit flat, idle speed went up to about 1200rpm, adjusted back down with the idle screw, no probs, however when the van has warmed up it is reluctant to return to idle, sometimes deciding to rev at about 2500rpm, if you put it in gear and let the clucth out to get the revs to drop they stay where they should, so I need to have another tinker methinks.

Im going to wire the gauge up next, then install the GTD injectors and fit the bleed valve next week one night after work.

Also, im awaiting a motorbike cooling fan to sit above the intercooler and pull air over it, and obviously a bit of a stone guard for the intercooler as it is in a bit of a vulnerable place right behind the wheel.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: jtanguay on April 15, 2006, 11:34:24 pm
Hmmm auxiliary fan for your intercooler... good idea!  I'm surprised to hear that your oil temp is 'warm' after an uphill climb.   What speed were you going? What were the rpm's/gear?  Was the turbo producing your max boost all the way up?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Otis2 on April 16, 2006, 01:47:06 am
I'm interested in jtanguay's questions, too, if you have a tachometer in the van.  I'm curious what kind of lag you experience with your K24.  Andrew (libbybapa) has complained that the K24 lag gets pretty ugly on a van, so he uses a K14.  If you have only 7 psi max boost at the moment, I wonder how much more boost you will be able to add from there, and at what point of the rpm band it kicks in.  If you get any more than 16 psi, I want to know your secret!

The intercooler is a real trial in the vans.  Every choice is a compromise with a downside of one kind or another.  I went watercooled: http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3684

I suspect that with the poor airflow you have to your intercooler at the moment, that you were getting heat soak of the core.  There's no way for the heat to dissipate without proper airflow there, so the heat just adds up.  I would not be surprised if the intercooler were markedly hotter than the air coming from the turbo.  So at the moment, you have an interheater.

Also, I wonder how much of the heat issue is the close proximity of your exhaust pipe.  

The fan is a good idea, but maybe some external ducting would make it even better.  I've seen a photo of someone who attached reasonably subtle "ram-air scoops" to the factory removable plastic air vents up top on the outside wall.  Supposedly it markedly helped airflow to the engine compartment.  I think he used some kind of flexible plastic sheet, moulded to the vents, and then painted body colour.  Looked very sano.

I'm sure Andrew's (libbybapa's) ram-air solution would help, too, but I just can't get past the aesthetic of ripping open the sheet metal around the side marker light.  As I said, everything's a compromise - pick your devil and live with it.

edit - andrew's scoop photos:

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Intercoolerscoop4.jpg)

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Intercoolerscoop2.jpg)
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 16, 2006, 07:53:17 am
Quote from: "jtanguay"
Hmmm auxiliary fan for your intercooler... good idea!  I'm surprised to hear that your oil temp is 'warm' after an uphill climb.   What speed were you going? What were the rpm's/gear?  Was the turbo producing your max boost all the way up?


Warm, very scientific eh!

Hill, hang on, lets find some number, I know how you lot just love numbers...

280 meters to 520 metres (240 metres up) in 2.4 kilometers, it's quite steep in places, not so in others.

I was behind another van, probably doing 20-40 mph depending on gradient, max boost all the way, thing is, we have corners in this counrty, so gears, speed, revs were constantly variable!
 :lol:
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 16, 2006, 08:05:03 am
Here is a picture of a T3 B32, which was one of 9 T3's built by Porshe, note the extra air intake on the rear corner.

(http://194.242.159.246/brickyard/forum/uploads/images/TransPorscher/2006-04-15_002458_004_DR.jpg)

Also, a popular mod is to take the 3 louvered grilles from the side of a T3 crewcab or Pick up and weld them into the pillar just behind the arch.

Yeah about close to the exhaust thing, I have some sheets of ally at work to make a piece to sit at the bottom of the cooler to shield it for stones from the wheel etc and was also going to put a shield on the exhaust but like you say, everything is  comprimise. From my point of view it runs cooler that it did so im somewhere in the right region.

Also, Im a mechanic by trade I work on these things all day long, working on my own van doesn't do much for me in the way of enjoyment! I would love to take measurements and see what works and how much difference it makes but to be honest I just want it fixed and quick! There will be some degree of mucking about for sure, just not as much as if I was an accountant or something! I don't need that in my life!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 16, 2006, 08:33:52 am
Im just doing a frantic search for the air inlet ducting you mentioned as I have seen that somewhere, I was sure it was on the small car website about the SVX engined van but I can't find it.

It was basically a black plastic tray that has been chopped and it sat in the hole nicely..

There is these but Im not sure if the reported better airflow will offer much over stock..

http://www.vw-winkler.de/shop3/product_info.php/info/p30_Air-conduct.html

I think the fan running constantly and the shield open more to the rear of the van where there is naturally an area of low pressure to draw out the air will be fine, plus a shield on the exhaust of course.

As for the pictures above of the side of the van opened up, we wouldn't get away with that here, our once a year MOT test would fail that as sharp edges and the construction and uses regulations would not like it and deem it as a "dangerous projection"
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 16, 2006, 12:26:39 pm
Yeah, mine has the K14, bog stock.
The engine was a supposed scrapper, customer wanted a AAZ fitting, this was what was left.
All I could find wrong with the old motor was the pipe was off the LDA.
I stripped it and rebuilt it with new bearings etc, new intermediate shaft bearings la di da...
Other than the coolers it's stock.

I must address this over revving, not returning to idle issue as I have no engine braking, I've just smoked my brakes on a long decent! :shock:

May just go back with the fuel screw a little  :?:

As for that hill I was on about earlier, just been back up to get an Ice Cream!

Max boost is achieved at 3000rpm. Travelled between 30 and 40mph, engine is revving just over 3000rpm in 3rd.

No engine cooling fan coming on, guage does not go above half.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Otis2 on April 16, 2006, 10:48:33 pm
Mr. B, if you work on T25s all the time professionally, then I guess working on your own van would be kind of like a "busman's holiday"?  (Couldn't resist.)

Here's a photo of what I was thinking about (not the same one, but pretty close).  If it were me, I'd paint it body coloured:

(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/543000-543999/543989_13.jpg)

I expect this would have a more aggressive scoop effect than that Winkler one you linked, as it projects out from the wall by maybe 3 or 4 inches (maybe illegal in your MOT?).

Thanks for the B32 photo - I've never heard of that beast.  I'm sure none made it over to North America!

Thanks also for clearing up that the K14 was the factory turbo on your JX engine.  I assumed it was a K24 like in the cars.

I'm waiting for a hot day to do some hill testing with my T3/AAZ rig, but I think I probably have around the same 7 psi boost at 3000 rpm as Mr. B, the difference being my boost keeps rising to a peak of about 16 psi by 4000 rpm.  I have disconnected the pressure hose to the wastegate, but that's all the juice it's gonna give me.

Lag is much more noticeable than with the now-defunct K03, although that lag experience is masked by the torque produced by overfuelling the pump.  

I'm running the 4 speed gasser transmission with 27.5" tires (so probably quite different gearing to either Andrew or Mr. B.).  The exhaust now smokes in 2nd gear if I hammer the pedal beyond 30% travel before about 2500 rpm, so I have to watch it around town.  Once the engine speed has come up and boost starts to build a little, no more smoke.  On the highway, it's perfect - no problem holding or even accelerating to hold position at 70 mph on the highway.

I'm sure the fuel economy is not ideal, but it's much better than the 1.9 gasser engine that the AAZ replaced, and once you drive with overfuelled torque, it's hard to give that up.  

I don't understand the physics of why lag is so much worse in the vans than the cars.  Yeah, yeah, vans are geared very low and are much heavier.  But so what?  What is the scientific process involved?  Why will a given engine/pump/turbo combination build boost fast in a car but not in a van?  I understood boost to be partly a function of load, so surely the greater weight of the van would force a greater load on the engine, and theoretically a faster boost response, no?  (Well, obviously no.  But WHY not is the question).
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on April 17, 2006, 12:23:08 am
Recently I moved the EGT probe on my friends Cummins 12 valvefrom the turbo outlet elbow to the exhaust manifold.

Response is maybe 3 times faster, and  the peak reading went from around 900 to 1150 or so.  The truck runs around 320HP with EGR delete, torque plate, injectors, and a high flow filter.  WE could probably turn up the fuel a bit after a better exhaust, but I think its about as far as we should go on a stock tranny.

Anyway , Just thought I would share my experience on the only EGT guage I've run both ways.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 17, 2006, 07:53:06 am
Quote from: "Otis2"
Mr. B, if you work on T25s all the time professionally, then I guess working on your own van would be kind of like a "busman's holiday"?  (Couldn't resist.)

Here's a photo of what I was thinking about (not the same one, but pretty close).  If it were me, I'd paint it body coloured:

(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/543000-543999/543989_13.jpg)

I expect this would have a more aggressive scoop effect than that Winkler one you linked, as it projects out from the wall by maybe 3 or 4 inches (maybe illegal in your MOT?).

Thanks for the B32 photo - I've never heard of that beast.  I'm sure none made it over to North America!



Wa Wa Wa Waaaaa.... *Cymbal crash* "It's the way he tells 'em"
 :lol:

Thats the fella, that is a black plastic tray, found in hardware stores I believe, the website that I can no longer find gave you the shop and item number for the tray, there was also a "how to"

B32, have a click here for more info, a owners manual went on American E-bay not so long back...

http://vwpix.terlinden.com/berichte/weitere/2006_01_Youngtimer/

And...

http://vw.dnsx.de/archive/betriebsanleitungen/1984_08_Porsche_B32_Betriebsanleitung/
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 19, 2006, 05:26:31 pm
GTD Injectors installed.
Pump timing advanced to 1mm of lift at TDC.
No particular change noticed other than it's now a little smoother and the "tink tink tink tink tink" noise now coming from the injection pump!
 :shock:
Now a bit of a bastard to start, thinking it may be residual air in the system, I will see what it's like in the morning!

Im sure I will feel the difference when the boost pressure goes up a little but Im reluctant to adjust fuelling any further due to the engines reluctance to return to idle when warm. Also makes the van difficult to drive down hills as I have next to no engine braking.
Rather than waste time on this JX pump I think I will install the GTD pump with the upright LDA before the weekend and try to get the governer mods done before I take a trip to the BusTypes show in Wales.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 20, 2006, 05:56:26 pm
Seeing as this has turned into a bit of a project blog...

I've finally got a cooling fan from a motorbike sat above the intercooler now blowing air through it.

As from the pictures up there somewhere you can see it's fitted behind the left hand rear light. The opening into the engine bay has been plated over so air is taken from the vent in the left hand pillar down, into fan, over intercooler and out downwards.
The intercooler is mounted where the bottom of the column was, this has been removed and the intercooler is the new floor to that column, as it were, if that makes sence.
The only other hole in there is the air inlet for the airbox, which may be a bit of an over sight as the hole column is set up for the intercooler, I don't yet know if the fan is going to be detremental to what the airbox is trying to pull in.
Anyway, it seems to be working better, fan is wired to the stop solenoid at the moment but I will soon wire it like a split charge relay only to activate when the alternator is charging.
When I had finished installing the fan I took some paper tissue and placed it over the air vent on the rear corner and it stuck, so it is doing something!

Road test, I don't know if it's the placebo effect but the van did seem to have more bollocks than before and seemed happier to rev.

On another note..
My journey home from work is around 10 miles, the last bit is up one of those nasty long inclines for about a mile, van pulled better but I also wired up the oil temp gauge tonight and I watched the temp go up to about 55-60 degrees C by the top. On my Caddy (1.6NA)ame hill at about the same speeds the radiator cooling fan would be on, on the T3 the gausge has just made it to half and the oil temp is good.

Things are looking promising, want to swap the pump before the weekend and give it some more fuel.
Annoying thing is I have now lost my Bleed valve and the pnumatics place have also lost my grainger type valve, great!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: jtanguay on April 20, 2006, 08:10:22 pm
what if you made the fan draw the cooler air from below and send it up and away?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 21, 2006, 03:19:12 pm
Quote from: jtanguay
what if you made the fan draw the cooler air from below and send it up and away?


Im using the  holes already there, if I did that there would be a conflict between the air coming in the vent from road speed and air trying to be pushed out.
Don't want to drill any more holes!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 21, 2006, 03:27:57 pm
Quote
No need for a bleed valve. Just screw the wastegate closed and be done. You'll max at about 17-18 psi with moderate EGT's and you'll avoid the pumping losses of the bleed.


I did that before on my TDI but it's such a faff going underneath to alter it.
Im going to wind it up a little tomorrow anyway, just not all the way.

Plus I have just chopped and added a t-piece to the actuator line and run some 3/16's brake pipe away from the turbo, then to plastic pipe to a sensible place on the blulkhead.
Too late, already done!

Todays shenanagins....
Removed the old 3H gearbox and replaced with AAR. Only to find that the biscuit spitters that have built it neglected to either check it properly or set 5 gear up as it won't stay in! Bollocks.
And, after roadtest it decided to what felt like engage 2 gears at the same time with the van coming to a sudden stop after a nice, loud bang  :shock:
Out with the new box and back in with the old...
Obviously said biscuit spitters got a phone call and Im dropping the offending item off next week when this VW Van festival is out of the way.

As said I added a T-piece to the wastegate actuator line and run some pipe up the the bulkhead in preparation for a bleed valve.

Finally swapped the BOV for a solid one.

Gotta go to work on Saturday and just make the interior habitable for a nights kip and load up with the stock for the show, so I will just wind the wastegate adjustment a little to pep it up for the trip.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 23, 2006, 06:20:13 pm
So, first proper run out to BusTypes.

current spec of the engine as it stands are..

1.6TD with MKI GTI oil filter head with oil cooler thermostat and piped to a MKI GTI oil cooler slung under the centre of the van.

1.9TDI Passat intercooler mounted in the bottom of the left hand rear air column thingy, behind and below the back light. Access into void blocked off into engine bay so cooling air is taken from the vent, over the intercooler and out downwards. This is constantly fed with air via a motorbike cooling fan.

Larger injectors and a few simple tweaks to the fuel injection pump.

K&N airfilter.

Took it steady at first as the van has done about 100 miles prior to setting off! I had an issue with the engine not returning to idle, this was sorted and off we went.

Onto motorway, feels really strong, the intercooler and injectors make a real difference to power. It's not the fact that the injectors are new as the old ones were recently rebuilt. Engine starts much better now, runs smoother and power comes in real steady like, it's producing max boost of .5 bar at 3000 rpm.

Van is quite happy to sit at 75-80 mph (80mph is 3800 rpm) and oil temperatures are cool, not heard fan come on yet and the water temp guage sits lower than the LED, even after putting it under some load up "Windy Hill" on the M62 the guage didn't faulter.

I have a flashy oil light problem at idle but that is just a faulty switch as Im using the switch in the sender for the pressure gauge and it's threshold is higher than the JX one it replaced.

I have a T-piece to fit the correct oil pressure switch and solve that one.

Blow off valve has been disabled enabling me to go above .8bar without the silly item releaving me of precious boost!

BusTypes was a 2 hour drive, I filled the tank, when I got there the needla had dropped to just below full! at 70-80mph!

On my return, longer route, driven harder I have well over half a tank left.

At the moment I feel the van has more useable power than the TDI-M I had as the enine is well suited to the gearbox.

Not one VW from BusTypes passed me, I lost count of the Bays, splits etc I passed. Lets just hpe it's sustainable! and reliable!

I will have done my 500 miles soon, so I will retorque the cylinder head then start playing with the boost.

Not returning to idle problem was throttle lever not returning to it's stop. I've given the throttle cable a bit of a squirt and backed it off a little and it seems fine now.

TBH Im really chuffed with it at the moment,it's a lovely quiet smooth little engine, it doesn't feel laboured, just feels nice, Im impressed!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on April 23, 2006, 06:42:00 pm
Sounds like youare already doing better than most gassers, and you had how many passengers?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 24, 2006, 02:30:41 pm
Me and the bird (2 and a quarter as she is up the duff!) and a van full of parts for the trade stall, ammo boxes full of shiney lights and poly bushes etc..
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 26, 2006, 05:18:24 pm
Bleed valve fitted, couldn't get it to work so I wound the screw on the waste gate right in!
Im only managing .8bar of boost at full tilt so I presume I need some more fuel  :shock:
Resolved oil pressure light flickering issue by fitting a t-piece and using the correct oil pressure switch for the JX rather tan use the switch contacts in the oil pressure guage sender.
Van pulls better, right up to about 4000 rpm when power seems to tail off.
Used a bit of sponge foam around the intercooler to ung up some of the gaps to try to get all the air possible over the cooler.

Up long drag oil temp is still only getting up to about 60 degrees C, winding boost pressure up made all the difference going up said long drag, nicer when changing up as there is more power instead of waitning to build it again, much easier to drive up hill!
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 27, 2006, 06:19:08 pm
Well, we'll see what the JX pump will do, the LDA runs out of go at .5 bar as per last weeks airline and regulator experiment.
Not got around to the GTD pump yet, too busy, yard full of broken T3's and the queue is getting bigger, booked up for a month solid. Interesting work though, a 16" syncro, a Bluestar, one of the tidiest Multivans your likely to see that got some Porsche classics bolted on today.. Nice Westy HiTop and the usual hearing aid beige campers and panel van conversions.

Im sponsoring the "Test Track" at this next weekend http://www.vanwest.net so I have a bit of stock to buy for the stall, and do 500 stickers for the show, sort the display out and get time to mess with the Stealth Bus! Theres me dicking around with the engine and it still has no interior lights! Priorities eh?! :lol:
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: jtanguay on April 27, 2006, 07:43:16 pm
your temps are excellent!  Congrats!  But isn't it good to have the coolant in the motor run as hot as 87C?  For efficiency?  or does this apply to this situation?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on April 28, 2006, 01:24:14 pm
Dunno whats going on with the temps, Im beggining to wonder if the gauge is faulty, sounds too good to be true, and when that happens it usually is!
Have you ever seen a T3 radiator though? they are massive! and weigh a ton! And then theres those front to rear coolant pipes!
I will check the output of the sender with a multimeter in the next few days, Im not convinced thats it's working right.
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on May 07, 2006, 06:47:53 pm
Well, I tightened my head down the other night, did my first 500 miles.

I then drove down to Devon and proceeded to hammer the van around a test track!

All went well until I pulled off the track and the van cut out! Bugger! Highly embaracing! Turns out that in the process of twatting around the track I have dragged all the *** and water from the bottom of the tank and filled my filter up with it. After a couple of unsuccessful attempts to drain it I decide to have a ring around and see if I can get a filter.
Couple of mates help out and a fresh filter is brought from Bristol. Result.

I fitted the filter and decided to get a bit of clear hose and prime the filter. It wouldn't prime, something is blocked. Bugger.
So, starts blowing down the pipe and suddenly blockage clears.
Fit the filter, had to bypass the pre heater as the new filter and the only one I could get doesn't have the pre heater bit.
Anyway van fired almost straight away and has run fine ever since.
Tank will be removed this week and flushed out with another frsh filter and the pre heater replaced.
I've now done 1000 miles on the fresh engine now, it feels really strong, it's just happy at 75mph, 80 is fine too, 75 is nicer and after I have done a few motorway miles, a few back roads and several hard laps of the test track it's returning 30 mpg which Im quite happy with considering the amount of stock I took with me to the show and how I drove it around the track, well impresed.
Why didn't VW, KKK  and Bosch do this in the first place!?
Title: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
Post by: Baxter on May 17, 2006, 06:10:43 pm
EEEkk, after all this I put it up for sale as I want a Westy and have my first kid on the way, I didn't think anyone would want it!
Seems they do!
Guy is coming up from London this weekend so I have been doing all those little jobs that didn't bother me!
Van is driving the best it ever has done, I took all my camping gear out of it, man that stuff weighs a ton, the van really flies now!
I went up a couple of clicks on the shock absorbers too and had a blast on the moors, don't know if I can sell it! it's ace, it flies and returns 30MPG, what more could you want?!

Still, I have a GTD lump sat in the corner with a passenger performance downpipe ready for the Caddy.... you ain't got rid of me yet!