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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vw-tim on June 25, 2012, 08:15:27 pm
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Hi my names Tim and i just trying to get my little 1.5L diesel running again! pretty much it cranks but wont fire up i checked the glow plugs they all work! and fuel is getting to the injectors... im thinking there might be air in the lines cuz i see some bubbles coming into the IP but for most part it is bleed will these small air bubbles prevent it from firing up?
also any suggestions on what else to check i was thinking of pulling off the Injectors and seeing if they allowing fuel in the chambers and i was gonna check my timing again. i dont have a IP dial gauge so idk if the IP is in time or not? would that prevent it from starting as well? i was thinking about buying one of these kits...
http://www.hansdieselparts.com/VWDieselTimingBeltToolsandGauge.htm
but i heard never buy anything from Prothe....
so any info would help! oh and also when i turn the key on and then to Start all i get is a clicks... and the starter doesnt engages so ive been just using a wire from the + to the starter to get the thing cranking! what can i do there to fix that problem?
Thank you!!
-Tim
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that timing gauge, and his pistons are about the ONLY thing i would buy from him..
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Tim, I see by the number of posts you are new to writing here. Welcome fellow diesel breather.
Have you ever timed a diesel before? They are quite the different animal compared to the electric gas engines that use a timing light to get it right.
Diesels time by measurement. So look at the sticky links here if you need to know the basics. Then you need to gather up more than just that dial gauge you put in the back of the pump. And for nearly a year I didn't have one and still managed to rebuild the IP and had good miles per gallon out of the engine. Once I got the gauge things went better then bad then real bad. Another story there.
So alignment is the key and that is done with marks on the top of the injection pump, the Top Dead Center mark on the flywheel and the keeper for the cam lock in the back of the block. Setting the lock in the injection pump should show you a mark on the pulley that lines up with a mark on the bracket that holds the pump. They are small and can be hard to see unless all is cleaned and once you find them paint them white or red or orange to see them forever more.
Getting the timing to set correctly is a bit of a trick because the part of the system that needs to be able to turn freely when you tighten the timing belt tension adjuster is the cam pulley. You need to have that freed before you start trying to tighten the belt but after you have the IP and Cam locked. Hints all over this site how to get it lose with out breaking it apart.
Get a Bentley manual and study it, Check the local library for a copy or some of the other repair manuals for this type of engine. I had good luck doing that but decided if I was going to turn wrenches on my car I best have the proper guide at hand. Can't drive to the library with a broken car now can you?
Good luck on the basic timing and remember pull the pump towards the front of the car to retard the timing and push it at the engine to increase the timing. Just don't forget to loosen the nuts on the back of the pump on the injection lines or you will have trouble doing either the push or pull and you will run the risk of breaking the lines delivering fuel to the injectors. Tighten after the pump is tight. Then roll the engine over by hand a few times and see if it hangs up on a valve or spins free as a bird.
Later DAS
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Tim, I see by the number of posts you are new to writing here. Welcome fellow diesel breather.
Have you ever timed a diesel before? They are quite the different animal compared to the electric gas engines that use a timing light to get it right.
Diesels time by measurement. So look at the sticky links here if you need to know the basics. Then you need to gather up more than just that dial gauge you put in the back of the pump. And for nearly a year I didn't have one and still managed to rebuild the IP and had good miles per gallon out of the engine. Once I got the gauge things went better then bad then real bad. Another story there.
So alignment is the key and that is done with marks on the top of the injection pump, the Top Dead Center mark on the flywheel and the keeper for the cam lock in the back of the block. Setting the lock in the injection pump should show you a mark on the pulley that lines up with a mark on the bracket that holds the pump. They are small and can be hard to see unless all is cleaned and once you find them paint them white or red or orange to see them forever more.
Getting the timing to set correctly is a bit of a trick because the part of the system that needs to be able to turn freely when you tighten the timing belt tension adjuster is the cam pulley. You need to have that freed before you start trying to tighten the belt but after you have the IP and Cam locked. Hints all over this site how to get it lose with out breaking it apart.
Get a Bentley manual and study it, Check the local library for a copy or some of the other repair manuals for this type of engine. I had good luck doing that but decided if I was going to turn wrenches on my car I best have the proper guide at hand. Can't drive to the library with a broken car now can you?
Good luck on the basic timing and remember pull the pump towards the front of the car to retard the timing and push it at the engine to increase the timing. Just don't forget to loosen the nuts on the back of the pump on the injection lines or you will have trouble doing either the push or pull and you will run the risk of breaking the lines delivering fuel to the injectors. Tighten after the pump is tight. Then roll the engine over by hand a few times and see if it hangs up on a valve or spins free as a bird.
Later DAS
good info man! thank you i apprecaite it and yeah i do have a bentley on order! and i have attempted to do the timing i think i got it pretty close on im gonna try it again but maybe the timing for ip is off reason why my engine wont fire up?
and how did you time the IP with out a gauge i understand adjusting the ip to and from the engine but how does that make timing different? i guess maybe i should just go out and try and re time the engine again!
heres my little step by step on timing if anyone can please add in any more info would be great...
first off move the crank to the TDC on the fly wheel the 0 i want to say it is... or the V mark... and then you take off the tension on the belt with the belt off the cam sproket move that to the TDC mark and then move the IP sproket to the TDC mark and then lock the cam and IP and just try and put the belt back on the sprockets?
or i was thinking sense it seems like i can get the belt on the sprockets but when i go to tension the belt it moves my fly wheel to not be tdc? what am i doing wrong ha
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heres my little step by step on timing if anyone can please add in any more info would be great...
first off move the crank to the TDC on the fly wheel the 0 i want to say it is... or the V mark... I would say yes as a step #1.
and then you take off the tension on the belt Not a good step #2
Remove the Valve Cover and determine if the two lobes of the first cylinder are pointed in the up position and then insert the cam lock on the back of the cam.
#3 insert the IP pin or what ever you have that will lock it in place with little to no movement. The index mark should align witht the pulley mark at this point, clean it off and verify if it does.
#4 Loosen the nut on the Cam pulley, a few threads past the pulley face but don't remove it totally. Using a drift or sharp rap to the backside of the pulley near the center of the camshaft. It should pop off and remain on the shaft.
#5 Now loosen the belt tensioner but don't slide the belt off the cam, and the IP. Nothing should be moving here but the crank can and will move as the belt gets bounced about.
with the belt off the cam sproket move that to the TDC mark and then move the IP sproket to the TDC mark and then lock the cam and IP and just try and put the belt back on the sprockets?
#6 Once you have the belt loose you can loosen the IP with the nut on the front and the three in the back, One is way down low. Loosen the nuts on the lines to the injector as well, Just a little don't remove.
#7 Moving the outside of the pump around the stationary center of the the pump changes when the TDC will be reached and that is how the timing changes. The dial gauge will tell you how many millimeters of travel it takes to get to that TDC point. Move the pump in the direction you want the timing to go- advance or retard. Then lock down the pump and lines again.
#8 inserting the gauge once it is all put back together will allow you to measure that distance. So retension the belt but pay attention to the direction you move the tensioner itself. If you bring it up from the bottom it moves the crank one way and from the top the other so play with that to see how it works. Double triple check that the V is on the pointer when you are done with the adjustment. Belt should be able to twist between you finger and thumb at a 45 degree angle when you grab it between the IP and the Cam pulley.
#9 Tighten the cam nut and remove the keepers on the IP and the cam itself.
#10 Roll the engine over a few times by hand, I use the crank nut and run it the direction of the belt rotation if it comes up hard like metal on metal you are off time, big time. Your valve is hitting the piston. Back to square one. Redo.
Try a start.
or i was thinking sense it seems like i can get the belt on the sprockets but when i go to tension the belt it moves my fly wheel to not be tdc? what am i doing wrong ha See above
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If the crank moves either direction when you go to tension the belt, then you are not doing it right. If the PROPER order is taken, then tensioning the tensioner will NOT move the crank at all.
With belt around all the sprockets, cam sprocket loosened from the shaft, the cam bolt snugged up (but not so tight that the sprocket can't turn independent of the cam), cam lock in place and the pump lock pin OUT, rotate the crank counter-clockwise a few degrees and then back to TDC without going past. Because of the resistance of the injection pump and cam sprocket, this little step moves ALL of the belt slack to the tensioner area. With all of the slack in the tensioner area, then tensioning the belt does not induce the crank to move.
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Thanks Libby, I knew of the trick just ran out of time trying to figure out how to say it.
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With your method libby, do you put the IP holder back in AFTER you reach TDC and before tensioning, right?
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Nope. To achieve proper belt tension, you should not have anything pinned/locked. The IP pin only goes in while loosening/torquing the sprocket and to install the belt onto the correct teeth.
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Good to know. I don't know if that is how I do it or not. I always seem to be adjusting the IP when doing a belt and this would make sense as to why, so maybe I do...I do not remember.
So you roll it up to TDC and not lock the IP to do the dial indicator either, you just go by cam and crank position as that is what the IP should be timed to anyway? I have always put it in to use the dial indicator, but that probably is wrong now that I think about it.
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okay so im gonna go do the timing like you said on the IP i have two locking holes on the sproket which one do i use? is this the correct hole?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/f9c2e221.jpg)
or should i be using the other hole?
and on the top these two marks on the bracket mean TDC for the IP?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/3816a4cb.jpg)
and also when i have TDC on everything and i go to Tension the belt how tight should it be on there? with how its on there now its pretty tight.. should it be alittle loose or no?
and i really appreciate all the help im getting on this! you guys are awesome! Im Learning a lot!
also when i go to crank the car i notice white smoke coming out the exhaust when cranking does this mean anything??
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If you look on the injection pump side of the sprocket, there should be a mark on the edge of the teeth. That mark should align with the mark on the pump and the pump bracket when the crank TDC mark is aligned and the locking bar is in place on the back of the cam. The marks for aligning the pump to the bracket are just for getting the belt on the correct tooth of the injection pump sprocket. Once that is accomplished, fine timing of the injection pump using a dial indicator or much better yet a pulse adapter and strobe still needs to be done.
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where can i get a dial indicator for the IP to time it? and whats a strobe thing?
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Dial indicators are available many places. I think the FAQ may even have a thread on getting quality ones inexpensively.
The diesel pulse adapter has a small piezo pickup that clamps to the injector line and senses the actual pulse of the diesel fuel in the injector line. The adapter then transforms that signal into a typical gasser spark plug wire pulse so you can use a gasser inductive strobe timing light and read off the flywheel. It is much faster and far more accurate than a dial indicator because it reads the actual start of injection which takes into account variations in pump wear and injector opening pressure. You can also see if the dynamic advance is working. The downside is the expense. My timing light has rpm and advance also, so I can use the pulse adapter to calibrate diesel tachometers and the advance function which is very useful as well.
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Dial indicators are available many places. I think the FAQ may even have a thread on getting quality ones inexpensively.
The diesel pulse adapter has a small piezo pickup that clamps to the injector line and senses the actual pulse of the diesel fuel in the injector line. The adapter then transforms that signal into a typical gasser spark plug wire pulse so you can use a gasser inductive strobe timing light and read off the flywheel. It is much faster and far more accurate than a dial indicator because it reads the actual start of injection which takes into account variations in pump wear and injector opening pressure. You can also see if the dynamic advance is working. The downside is the expense. My timing light has rpm and advance also, so I can use the pulse adapter to calibrate diesel tachometers and the advance function which is very useful as well.
oh okay hmm good info ill look into dial indicators cuz i cant afford real expensive stuff right now ha
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okay so i got everything timed now i dont have a dial indicator so i didnt mess with the IP just left it how it sits made sure it was TDC with the sprocket and stuff but anyway now i go to fire up the car and it seems like its almost there almost gonna start! but it doesnt lol it just is really dumping out white smoke from the exhaust! what should i do now? maybe move the IP towards the engine or farther away? would that maybe do it?
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Before you move the pump Tim are you pulling out the cold start knob on the dash? This gives some amount of advance to the engine and may solve your problem. If indeed you do have that baby all the way out and it won't start shove it in all the way and go move the IP towards the engine the width of a pencil mark from where you are at right now. Just draw a line across the top of the pump and that index mark on the bracket. That may get you to start up. All that smoke tells me that you are either at a retard position or the glow plugs are not warming up. I think you mentioned that they all work in the initial post here.
Check the pull knob, cycle the glows twice and try again. No luck? or rough after start and smokey. Bump the pump.
DAS
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Before you move the pump Tim are you pulling out the cold start knob on the dash? This gives some amount of advance to the engine and may solve your problem. If indeed you do have that baby all the way out and it won't start shove it in all the way and go move the IP towards the engine the width of a pencil mark from where you are at right now. Just draw a line across the top of the pump and that index mark on the bracket. That may get you to start up. All that smoke tells me that you are either at a retard position or the glow plugs are not warming up. I think you mentioned that they all work in the initial post here.
Check the pull knob, cycle the glows twice and try again. No luck? or rough after start and smokey. Bump the pump.
DAS
yeah cold start knob is out and i did the glow plugs still just smokes i moved the IP towards the engine as far as i could.. still nothing its like its almost there.. what else could i do? could it be bad injectors or somthing i do have another IP that the guy gave me when i bought the car what if i just swap pumps could that be reason or no?
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also when i have TDC on everything and i go to Tension the belt how tight should it be on there? with how its on there now its pretty tight.. should it be alittle loose or no?
The issue of correct belt tension both very simple and challenging. If the belt is wildly loose, then the pump or worse the cam can jump time potentially causing pistons to hit valves. If the belt is too tight, the injection pump bushings and the intermediate shaft bearings will wear out in short order. The pump bushings require a full rebuild ($$) to replace and the intermediate shaft bearings are no small task. Some models require engine removal for access. There is a special VW tool for measuring the tension and various brands have made aftermarket versions that are reasonably priced. For use of the VW tool (or similar) or any other objective method, the cam sprocket should be able to rotate on the camshaft and the pump lock pin should be removed. Short of the VW tool, I would say that the best rule of thumb I've come up with is to get all the slack into the tensioner area as mentioned previously, and then rotate the center of the tensioner CW as hard as I can by hand while I tighten the tensioner nut. The next best method, IMO, is to again make sure all the slack is in the tensioner area and to use a tensioner wrench to first apply a little tension to the belt and then let the tension of the belt spring the tensioner back. I'd say 5°-10° CW from where the tension of the belt springs the wrench back is just right. The test of rotating the belt as mentioned in some manuals is so subjective it is useless.
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also when i have TDC on everything and i go to Tension the belt how tight should it be on there? with how its on there now its pretty tight.. should it be alittle loose or no?
The issue of correct belt tension both very simple and challenging. If the belt is wildly loose, then the pump or worse the cam can jump time potentially causing pistons to hit valves. If the belt is too tight, the injection pump bushings and the intermediate shaft bearings will wear out in short order. The pump bushings require a full rebuild ($$) to replace and the intermediate shaft bearings are no small task. Some models require engine removal for access. There is a special VW tool for measuring the tension and various brands have made aftermarket versions that are reasonably priced. For use of the VW tool (or similar) or any other objective method, the cam sprocket should be able to rotate on the camshaft and the pump lock pin should be removed. Short of the VW tool, I would say that the best rule of thumb I've come up with is to get all the slack into the tensioner area as mentioned previously, and then rotate the center of the tensioner CW as hard as I can by hand while I tighten the tensioner nut. The next best method, IMO, is to again make sure all the slack is in the tensioner area and to use a tensioner wrench to first apply a little tension to the belt and then let the tension of the belt spring the tensioner back. I'd say 5°-10° CW from where the tension of the belt springs the wrench back is just right. The test of rotating the belt as mentioned in some manuals is so subjective it is useless.
okay so basicly us your hand to tension the belt as tight as you can so its not loose but its not really tight ha i think i got that now :)
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OK, now this is going to freak you out. Pull the pump all the way towards the front of the car. Some experience the same result as you with a pump that is advanced too far.
I trust you have cracked the top of the injector nuts enough to release any air stored up in the lines. But the pump holds on to air like Mother Hubbard clutches nickels. It might need to get running to clear it out.
Duh? That puts you in a Catch 22 right? No, some go to the extreme of pull starting the beast, Mostly because their battery is low and can't really crank it the way it should. You do have a good battery and all connections on both grounds and positive points, like the starter are cleaned up?
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okay so i just want to verify that this is what all timed up and ready to go should look like...
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/53275e1b.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/cf478c2d.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/d42b81f7.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/86ba07e0.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/7b0891b5.jpg)
and all of that is with the belt tensioned am i ready to go? :)
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OK, now this is going to freak you out. Pull the pump all the way towards the front of the car. Some experience the same result as you with a pump that is advanced too far.
I trust you have cracked the top of the injector nuts enough to release any air stored up in the lines. But the pump holds on to air like Mother Hubbard clutches nickels. It might need to get running to clear it out.
Duh? That puts you in a Catch 22 right? No, some go to the extreme of pull starting the beast, Mostly because their battery is low and can't really crank it the way it should. You do have a good battery and all connections on both grounds and positive points, like the starter are cleaned up?
yes i did pull it foward too i sorta had this other IP that looks better then the one im using idk if im going backwards here i just felt like slapping that one on and then re bleeding the fuel and re timing everything im setting the IP to the center hash mark and i guess ill try and start it up again and i am cracking the fuel lines when i move the ip to realise the air in the lines. so im gonna try it again and report back after i try this one out hopefully it does the trick! this is frustrating ha i really apprecaite all your help man! such a good info im def learning a ton!
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OK, Looks set up the correct way just turn it over by hand a few times to make sure nothing is hitting inside and warm the glows, hit the starter and give the accelerator about a third to half way to the floor push as well. Mine needs that if it has a burp inside it sometimes. Hint number 107 probably. Oh, and cold start lever out as well.
DAS
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Is the woodruff key in place in the pump shaft/sprocket?
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ohhh that would be key now wouldn't it? All marks on but yet pump still out of time. Great catch Libby.
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Is the woodruff key in place in the pump shaft/sprocket?
yes woodruff key is in place!
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OK, Looks set up the correct way just turn it over by hand a few times to make sure nothing is hitting inside and warm the glows, hit the starter and give the accelerator about a third to half way to the floor push as well. Mine needs that if it has a burp inside it sometimes. Hint number 107 probably. Oh, and cold start lever out as well.
DAS
yeah now the white smoke isnt as bad at all so should i push this pump towards the engine and see how it does or the opposite way and just mess with it? i was thinking maybe i should do a compression test see if the chambers are at the right compression because if there not no way this cars gonna fire up huh??
any suggestions on where i can get a compresion test for the diesel? they hook into the injector holes correct?
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White smoke not so bad now? I would pull it to the front and see if it gets worse. Then bump it towards the engine a bit at time. Crack the nuts on the back of the pump and you can get it to move real easy that way.
I bought a Harbor Freight diesel compression tester kit for something like 40 bucks and the adapter fits in the injector hole real well. Just remember to always push the breaker bar or torque wrench towards the head. Don't ask me why I am having to rebuild my head right now because of a cracked injector boss. Just found it that way a few weeks ago after a good cleaning. By the way you can detail my engine like yours and I would just jump for joy. wow.
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White smoke not so bad now? I would pull it to the front and see if it gets worse. Then bump it towards the engine a bit at time. Crack the nuts on the back of the pump and you can get it to move real easy that way.
I bought a Harbor Freight diesel compression tester kit for something like 40 bucks and the adapter fits in the injector hole real well. Just remember to always push the breaker bar or torque wrench towards the head. Don't ask me why I am having to rebuild my head right now because of a cracked injector boss. Just found it that way a few weeks ago after a good cleaning. By the way you can detail my engine like yours and I would just jump for joy. wow.
ha okay ill call up harbor freight tomorrow and see if i can get a diesel compression tester kit is it just a universal one or should i look out for like a certain one to buy?? and yeah white smoke not as bad ill mess with moving the ip toward the engine and away tomorrow and report back. gosh i just wanna get this thing going! haha and thanks my engine bay could be heck of a lot cleaner :) it was disgusting when i bought the car... lol
also with my iginition like ive been having to crank the engine by using a wire on the + of the battery and hitting the starter solenoid when i turn the key to start it just clicks at me.. i was thinking it just needs a new starter switch so i ordered one of those but then i also came apon this link thinkin maybe i just need to wire one of these in?
and would cranking the engine by jumping it might prevent it from starting? i didnt think so but i thought id ask
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2593146
and also does this look like the compression tester you have?
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piece-diesel-engine-compression-tester-93644.html
the reviews aren't the greatest...
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The SKU number is the same but I have a bunch more adapters and parts in mine. And many here caution that this type of device gives us low readings as the valve is poorly located and engine has to pump up the gauge more than it should. Search some for Schroeder valve and you might find it.
On another thread here Libby and I just told the guy to crank in that screw on the left side of the pump by a 1/4 to 1 full turn. That is the fuel screw or smoke screw as some call it. With you getting smoke I don't think that is needed at this time. You seem to have fuel getting into the engine.
The problem you describe with the starter sounds like poor connections on the starter to me. Since you get it to work with a hot wire. I have put my glow plugs over to a relay but the starter no. I don't have my Bentley or my car with me right now but isn't there a starter relay up on the fuse box? I know there is a glow plug relay. You have to really get your head up in there with a good light to read those id marks. Maybe your stock wiring is shabby. Could be the starter switch.
And cranking the engine with a jump isn't going to prevent it from starting. Unless the battery or charging system is weak, like 10 volts.
call it a night. What is your local time anyway? I don't see a location for you yet in the profile.
Good luck with it tomorrow. You will be 20 lbs lighter when this thing gives it mighty varrroomm.
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I have some scattered input here in no real order.
Ignition- there is the harebrained relay system that makes you have to turn the key off before you can try to start again.
-I guess it's a start inhibit relay, could be part of the problem.
i know whenever I'd let my caddy sit, water would go down the backside of the fusebox, and fill all the relays, and I'd have to pull the lids off and dump em out before half my stuff would work. wiggle inspect, and clean.
Confirm with a test light or meter the fuel shutoff so has power in both start and run positions.
Run a wire from B+ to the solenoid if in doubt. Does it click lightly w/ power? it should. with this powered, the engine is 'on' even if the rest of the car is not, and it wont turn off with the key.
you have the old type pump gear with 2 small holes. while correctly timed, the pump can be 180 out internally. only test I know is retime with the pin in the other hole, but you are probably getting pretty adept at this exercise by now.
I see you have some clear line, what is the flow in and out like? direction? bubbles? did you prime the pump with some kind of fuel? If it's hard to see, you can pull the fuel filter off, and dump a bit of ATF in to make it nice and red.
I find after a long hiatus, or an out of fuel event, an otherwise fine diesel often has trouble getting enough cranking speed to purge air and prime everything, but a brisk 3rd gear(key on) drag behind a truck takes care of it without smoking 3 sets of batteries. Battery, jumper cable size, and jump car battery size all play a big role, the helo kitty cables you found in your girlfriends trunk won't cut it in the diesel world.
Glows- I don't see how you are activating or testing them. do they or the light work with the key? if so, good news for ignition switch, but not necessarily for the safety mechanism I mentioned earlier. If you activate them, battery voltage should drop noticeably if you have a decent way of measuring it. cycle them twice, and you can detect it with an IR pyrometer pointed at the connector if they work. Super rough test- undo the big glow fuse on the firewall (has been checked I hope), and hit the downstream(to GP) terminal with a jumper cable from battery +...if it doesn't spark a little, they are all dead.
I'm a bad person, some times in these cases, I use starter fluid NEver use starting fluid on a diesel. it's easy to get wrong, but not so hard to do right.
1 unplug the glow relay or fuse.
2 while cranking the engine, spray one puff tangental to the air inlet snorkel ,a few inches outboard(so a tiny whiff of fog gets sucked in). Continue to crank another 20 seconds. No-go, repeat, but shoot 2 puffs across the bow.
3 still no love, and want to take some risks(ranging from burned out glow plugs to broken rings and a dead engine) hook the glow plugs back up, run them 2 seconds, and go back to step 2. alternate; run the glows a full cycle, then just wait 40+ sec before you try to start the car, and you can try progressively shorter increments.
If it starts, you will likely have to give some throttle to keep it running till it purges and smooths out.
If it fires, and makes a painful knocking noise, you used waaay too much spray.
Despite the dire warnings, I've yet to fry a motor using the stuff, and we've been starting our 7.3 dump truck this way about 5 years.
Running ether and glows at the same time seems to kill the glow plugs pretty fast though.
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OK, now this is going to freak you out. Pull the pump all the way towards the front of the car. Some experience the same result as you with a pump that is advanced too far.
I trust you have cracked the top of the injector nuts enough to release any air stored up in the lines. But the pump holds on to air like Mother Hubbard clutches nickels. It might need to get running to clear it out.
Duh? That puts you in a Catch 22 right? No, some go to the extreme of pull starting the beast, Mostly because their battery is low and can't really crank it the way it should. You do have a good battery and all connections on both grounds and positive points, like the starter are cleaned up?
the PUMP is circulating fuel the entire time the car is running. the inlet is fairly low on the pump. the OUTLET is THE HIGHEST POINT OF THE PUMP.. if there is any air getting in the pump, within 5 seconds, its pushed out the outlet line, back to the tank.. the pump never collects any air. the air goes in, finds its way to the top, since bubbles float, and then out she goes, back to the tank..
please quit telling people that air is getting trapped in their pumps. it is not. air does not get trapped, or build up. if there is constant air in the pump, then there is a constant air leak somewhere in the system. it may get worse as you run the car as well. my Jetta had an air leak that was IMPOSSIBLE to find. and it only leaked air once it was warmed up..
FWIW, you can PRIME the pump without running the engine..
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okay im gonna try and replay to all you guys in same post see if i can do it and not forget anything :P haha
with the diesel compressor tester i posted i think maybe they changed the package from what you got? i think i might still go try and pick it up and give it a try hopefuly it will work... and when i search for the " Schroeder valve " ones it comes up with testers that are like 100-200 dollars way more then i can spend right now.
i did swap out IP so now its not smoking or like almost starting up like the other one was so maybe ill just try and push it towards the engine and then back away hopefully ill find that sweet spot! ha
also i came up with this idea on the pump adjustment i havent tryed it yet but i was thinking last night how the center sproket part is constantly in position and how the pump can just move front to back soo i was thinkng can i loosen all four screws that hold it on and keep the belt tension on and loosen the fuel lines then re position the pump and just tighten like one screw down and tighten the fuel lines back on and then crank the engine and see if it finds that spot it likes? and if not then loosen the single screw bump it a bit and then retiten i just dont want to mess anything up if for just temporaryly have it held on by one screw... do you think thats okay to do or atleast try?
yeah ill look into the starter switch and all the wiring in a bit when i do turn the key to START i do hear the relays click the 52 relay big black box on the fuse box and then this other bar looking box... ill snap some pics of it later today
i live down in California so its like 10:41 am right now :) i cant wait to get this thing running gonna be such a relief! ha
okay the stop fuel switch on the IP works great ive tested it with voltmeter and works how its suppose to we can rule that out
how i brought fuel to the pump or well how i primed the system i took alittle hose from the out banjoo and took my vacum and sucked fuel up so it filled the fuel filter and then ran down the line and filled the IP so fuel is there
how i tested the glow plugs to make sure they are good was i took each of them out and i hooked them up to a battery holding the glow plug with pliers and then connected ground and + wires to it and they all lit up red hot!
i might try the drag behind the truck but i think my battery is giving it enough i also have this charger hooked up to it for engine starts i hook that to the battery and hit the engine start switch on the charger so i think it provided more then enough to get this cranking properly
maybe if im desperate ill try the starting fluid :P
well im gonna try and pick up a diesel compressor tester and then i think im gonna mess with the IP position ill report back
Thank you all for such good and fast information really helping me learn a lot! appreciate it!
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Comp tester
If you're near Santa Cruz, I have one.
Timing
Imo it's not that sensitive from a 'will it start' perspective.
no smoke = no fuel. stuck vanes in the transfer pump or a varnished in place control collar?
I'd tighten at least 2 bolts, and leave a wobble extension and whatever socket on the PITA one that's pinched behind the pump
yeah ill look into the starter switch and all the wiring in a bit when i do turn the key to START i do hear the relays click the 52 relay big black box on the fuse box and then this other bar looking box... ill snap some pics of it later today
click only means the control side of the relay is working, the switched side must be checked as well
stop solenoid gets power, and are usually problem free, but I'd verify that something in it moves as well.
also maybe clean your out bolts on both pumps, it will give you a snapshot of how much crap is flying around in there (should be ~none). ther is a screen and a tiny hole inside the bolt. Said bolt incidentally must not be swapped with the in bolt, out is labeled and will restrict the heck out of your fuel supply if on the wrong side, have a look.
Any bubbles or flow observed while/after cranking?
Running from a fuel can eliminates much of the supply side as a source of problems, though if the vac pump worked, it's probably OK.
return to a jug will bypass blockage on that side, and give you an idea how much fuel is moving through. A quart will take over a minute to fill at idle
Glow Test is optimal, I assume you also checked for power at the bus bar?
i might try the drag behind the truck but i think my battery is giving it enough i also have this charger hooked up to it for engine starts i hook that to the battery and hit the engine start switch on the charger so i think it provided more then enough to get this cranking properly
When you have a cascading effect of 5 little problems, The OEM starter may never crank it fast enough, but a few minutes at 2500 RPM will start even the weakest of motors.
RE Air Trap:
I'm going to take a militant middle ground stance on this.
air in the injector pipes may become trapped as it is compressible, and if it compresses rather than squirting out the injector, it re-expends to fill just the space it took before, .002% that slips into the leakby pipes. this is further exacerbated by one or more vanes in the transfer pump being sticky and/or worn.
I find it takes at least 30 seconds to purge, and some pumps will never do it with the injectors hooked up.
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i did swap out IP so now its not smoking or like almost starting up like the other one was so maybe ill just try and push it towards the engine and then back away hopefully ill find that sweet spot! ha
If you are not getting the puffs of smoke with the new pump, then you may not be getting fuel to the injectors. Confirm fuel at the injectors by loosening the unions and then cranking for a little bit. The nuts should get wet.
also i came up with this idea on the pump adjustment i havent tryed it yet but i was thinking last night how the center sproket part is constantly in position and how the pump can just move front to back soo i was thinkng can i loosen all four screws that hold it on and keep the belt tension on and loosen the fuel lines then re position the pump and just tighten like one screw down and tighten the fuel lines back on and then crank the engine and see if it finds that spot it likes? and if not then loosen the single screw bump it a bit and then retiten i just dont want to mess anything up if for just temporaryly have it held on by one screw... do you think thats okay to do or atleast try?
You could take that approach, but it is not the most direct. All else being right, the engine WILL start and run with the injection pump mark lined up with the bracket.
okay the stop fuel switch on the IP works great ive tested it with voltmeter and works how its suppose to we can rule that out
Did you test it on the new pump? The real test is checking for fuel at the injectors as mentioned above.
how i tested the glow plugs to make sure they are good was i took each of them out and i hooked them up to a battery holding the glow plug with pliers and then connected ground and + wires to it and they all lit up red hot!
It's good that you tested the individual glow plugs and that they all work, but did you test the glow plug circuit? Is power getting to the plugs?
maybe if im desperate ill try the starting fluid :P
Don't bother with starting fluid. I've been working on these diesels for 20 years and have never had to use starting fluid and there isn't a single situation I've been in where it would have benefited me in the least. Solve the actual problem. Using starting fluid is at best a band-aid and at worst, the reason you had to rebuild your engine.
air in the injector pipes may become trapped as it is compressible, and if it compresses rather than squirting out the injector, it re-expends to fill just the space it took before, .002% that slips into the leakby pipes. this is further exacerbated by one or more vanes in the transfer pump being sticky and/or worn.
I find it takes at least 30 seconds to purge, and some pumps will never do it with the injectors hooked up.
Provided the injection pump is functional and actually pushing fuel in the high pressure portion of the pump, it will purge the air from the injection lines. The high pressure pump positively displaces fuel into the lines. The air may compress, but it cannot re-expand because the delivery valve closes and the delivery port in the distributor head closes. The space left in the injection line gets smaller and smaller until the air is gone. The worst case scenario I've seen with a functional pump is where the max fuel screw was too far out and the accelerator had no effect on how much fuel was delivered. Even at low idle quantity, the air was still purged from the lines in about 30-40 seconds of cranking. Usually with the pump tuned correctly and the accelerator floored, it takes less than 20 seconds. I have timed both with the unions closed and the unions open at the injectors and it does not take any longer if the unions are closed.
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okayyy so i think i discovered the problem why it wont fire up i did compression test did it twice...
i took out all the injectors and then i went one by one and here is what i got
starting at
#1 - 300
#2 - 50
#3 - 15
#4 - 175
and all these chambers should be at like 400 psi right??
now lets brain storm and figure out what i did wrong lol im thinking maybe i didnt torque the head gasket down or maybe when i put on the head the head gasket didnt quite get in the correct position?
my dad was telling me how i could spray some wd40 in the injector holes and then put on the compression test and i think he said if the compression psi reads higher or maybe lower then my rings are bad...
what do you guys think its corona:30 time right now :/
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/d69944da.jpg)
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pour a bit of heavy oil in each hole and re do the test, if the numbers are much higher the rings are bad
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pour a bit of heavy oil in each hole and re do the test, if the numbers are much higher the rings are bad
i did wd40 the numbers were exactly the same... can i say this is an accurate reading? or is wd40 not good to use for this test??
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wd 40 is alot thinner i'd atleast try motor oil, but gear oil will be best. regardless with numbers like that you're gonna have to pull the head and see whats going on.
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so now with the test of the wd40 and the measurments still being the same can i say the the rings are fine then and move on to assuming that my valves need adjustment and or my head gasket is faulty? i have read in my bentley yet about the valve adjustment but what is need to get that spot on?
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WD 40 is a wee bit thin for this kind of test. Oil of any weight would be better but 30w would be great. Substitute ATF if you have it. Just need to seal the tiny crack between the two pieces of metal.
Corona :30 I love it. I prefer dark porter myself. And it tastes best with a running engine.
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wd 40 is alot thinner i'd atleast try motor oil, but gear oil will be best. regardless with numbers like that you're gonna have to pull the head and see whats going on.
okay i have some gear oil how much would you say i should put in there? like a tiny bit or a good amount? ha and yeah i figured im gonna have to anyway
now with pulling the head can i just take off the valve cover and then take off the head bolts and pull the head with the intake and exhaust manifolds still on i just dont want to have to take all that stuff off such a PITA lol i could just use my engine hoist and just pull the head up keep everything attached? i dont see why that shouldnt be a problem right?
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I would do just as you say. Unbolt, lift head and play peeka boo with it.
Oh on amount of oil. say a teaspoon or so You just need to coat the top of the piston so it runs down the sides.
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WD 40 is a wee bit thin for this kind of test. Oil of any weight would be better but 30w would be great. Substitute ATF if you have it. Just need to seal the tiny crack between the two pieces of metal.
Corona :30 I love it. I prefer dark porter myself. And it tastes best with a running engine.
haha i love corona my favorite! once i get this engine running ill have to have dark porter beer then! haha
and so use ATF ill try that and report back!
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wd 40 is alot thinner i'd atleast try motor oil, but gear oil will be best. regardless with numbers like that you're gonna have to pull the head and see whats going on.
okay i have some gear oil how much would you say i should put in there? like a tiny bit or a good amount? ha and yeah i figured im gonna have to anyway
now with pulling the head can i just take off the valve cover and then take off the head bolts and pull the head with the intake and exhaust manifolds still on i just dont want to have to take all that stuff off such a PITA lol i could just use my engine hoist and just pull the head up keep everything attached? i dont see why that shouldnt be a problem right?
yeah i pull the heads with the manifolds still on, its pretty easy. you don't want to fill the cylinders with oil or it can hydro lock the engine and bend the rods, u just want enough to get between the piston and the bore and create a seal.
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Just be sure to have that head and manifolds on something solid, like a chain. Not that nylon rope trick used by another here on the forum that will remain nameless for a while.
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okay so i filled up each cylinder with about this much..
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/1f08bb51.jpg)
idk if it was to much but its done now lol and here are my readings
#1-420
#2-160
#3-140
#4-400
so this means my rings are bad?
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Just be sure to have that head and manifolds on something solid, like a chain. Not that nylon rope trick used by another here on the forum that will remain nameless for a while.
yeah id def use a chain pulling it off but sense i might need to do rings now how hard is that? should i just pull the whole motor again... ha
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Perhaps not. There may just be a problem with the gasket between the 2nd and 3rd cylinder. But if you are going to do the rings then by all means get the head and stuff out of the way. You will need the room.
Was the gasket just redone?
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Is your coolant bottle presurizing? I think our engines with a piston in the bore with no rings would make more than 15psi, I think something is up there. Did this ever run? I would almost think that there is something between the gasket and block to create that much loss. This is strange sir.
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Kind of what i was thinking. A bump of something that didn't get out of the way. Hopefully the head doesn't suffer. Might get by with a good cleaning and reinstall all parts. Check compression prior to manifold bolt on and see if problem is solved.
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okay well heres the deal i bought the car for $500 the engine that was in it the block had a broken rod the go threw in 2 other spare 1.5L diesels one complete and the other was just a tranny and block so what i did was i took the head that was on the car orignially got all the valves and everything re done on that and i took of the blocks that i cranked and it was free from binds and what not and i didnt do anything to the block except put on a new clutch kit and oil pan i used the orignal 5 speed tranny that was in the car and bolted it on and got the head back and i bought i new head gasket and new head bolts and put those on when i was putting them on i did notice some of the head bolts were having trouble like going in.... i probably should of thought this wasnt right and stopped but i kept going and i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.. do you think maybe because they were hanging up they might of been torqued but it was not accurate reason for not having the compression?
if worse comes to worse can i just pull the head and do the rings with out having to take off the block and tranny or would it be much easyer to just pull the whole engine ?
i guess from where i look at it now should i just pull the head ill buy new head gasket and new head bolts redo it and then test the compression see if it changes? i do belive the valves need to be adjusted as well... thoughts on this thank you guys!
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Kind of what i was thinking. A bump of something that didn't get out of the way. Hopefully the head doesn't suffer. Might get by with a good cleaning and reinstall all parts. Check compression prior to manifold bolt on and see if problem is solved.
do you think i could get away with just removing the head and re using the head bolts and gasket? and maybe just cleaning the block and like where the head bolts thread down into? and just get everything back on and then re do the compression test and see if its better?
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also for the valve adjustment... what shims should i get is that all it takes just take the shims i have in there and replace them with the correct size and good to go for the valves?
http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/79/volkswagen/rabbit/valves.html?3594=1996
theres a ton of different sizes here..
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Ah the rest of the story now eh?
Ok sounds like you didn't clean out the head bolt holes well enough before you put things together. They should be aired out with a compressor air hose and have a bolt run down and back out so that it comes out clean. It is called chasing. Don't need to tighten down. Lots of junk gets in them even if you are careful.
So being the cheap and optimist type I say lift the head. Inspect and clean and reuse what you have. If the head gasket it Fubar then by all means get a new one. If you have old head bolts hanging around cut the heads off four of them and use them like alignment tools for the next gasket.
Bolts in the corners, gasket on, head down then pull a cut off bolt and replace with the real deal. Check that head gasket coming out for some sort of mashed edge or gob of something stuck onto it. Then get a light and a mirror and see what that head looks like. Is there some part embedded in the head that would have prevented the sucker getting on there flat in the first place?
Can't keep up with the questions Tim.
Adjusting the valves is an exercise in math. You have a shim of x thickness. you put them all in and after the cam is all tight you measure the distance between the cam and the follower. If withing tolerance for cold engine great otherwise you have to note the amount of greater than spec or less than spec you have and subtract or add that amount to get to the correct distance between the cam and follower after you replace the shim. that is why there are so many choices. It depends on valve length, wear, valve seat and a bunch I am forgetting.
You might be able to move some around to keep from buying any new ones since you have a bunch to choose from.
Feel like I am writing the Bentley manual all over here. Do you have one? Library may.
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Ah the rest of the story now eh?
Ok sounds like you didn't clean out the head bolt holes well enough before you put things together. They should be aired out with a compressor air hose and have a bolt run down and back out so that it comes out clean. It is called chasing. Don't need to tighten down. Lots of junk gets in them even if you are careful.
So being the cheap and optimist type I say lift the head. Inspect and clean and reuse what you have. If the head gasket it Fubar then by all means get a new one. If you have old head bolts hanging around cut the heads off four of them and use them like alignment tools for the next gasket.
Bolts in the corners, gasket on, head down then pull a cut off bolt and replace with the real deal. Check that head gasket coming out for some sort of mashed edge or gob of something stuck onto it. Then get a light and a mirror and see what that head looks like. Is there some part embedded in the head that would have prevented the sucker getting on there flat in the first place?
Can't keep up with the questions Tim.
Adjusting the valves is an exercise in math. You have a shim of x thickness. you put them all in and after the cam is all tight you measure the distance between the cam and the follower. If withing tolerance for cold engine great otherwise you have to note the amount of greater than spec or less than spec you have and subtract or add that amount to get to the correct distance between the cam and follower after you replace the shim. that is why there are so many choices. It depends on valve length, wear, valve seat and a bunch I am forgetting.
You might be able to move some around to keep from buying any new ones since you have a bunch to choose from.
Feel like I am writing the Bentley manual all over here. Do you have one? Library may.
haha sorry for so many of the questions man its just easyer to ask on here then read through the bentley i like getting sorta the extra knowledge i can add in from what bentley says. i will read about valve adjustment and stuff and ill pull the head tomorrow and check out everything
really appreciate the help man!
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i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.
36 ft/lb, and how many angle tightenings?
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Ahhh Moment. Maybe none thus head isn't really down at all. But with the trouble he had getting them to 36 perhaps removing and cleaning and trying again with the extra 90 degree turn will be the ticket to success here. I wouldn't just crank them down based on his description of the install.
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Ahhh Moment. Maybe none thus head isn't really down at all. But with the trouble he had getting them to 36 perhaps removing and cleaning and trying again with the extra 90 degree turn will be the ticket to success here. I wouldn't just crank them down based on his description of the install.
yeah im gonna re do it all and then hopefully that will give me my compression :) ha this has been my first real big like working on engine doing head gaskets and all that good stuff so im learning a ton! anyway hopefully ill get the head off and clean everything up!
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okay so ive pulled of the head and have noticed some junk in a few of the head bolt holes so gonna try and clean those all up is there any like tap i could get to just really clean the threads what do you guys suggest doing? i sprayed some wd40 cuz i ran out of carb cleaner ha in each hole and gonna vaccum it all back out maybe they should clean them up nicely bit i just want to make the threads perfect again so i can get the head torqued down perfect hopefully that will fix my compression :)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/1d2c4aca.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/471bc72a.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/c382b45c.jpg)
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I filed flutes in an old head bolt to make it into a cleaning tap.
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I filed flutes in an old head bolt to make it into a cleaning tap.
okay maybe ill try that!
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okay so go the head back on torqued all down did compression test still the same numbers... so i guess now its time to pull the engine and just replace the rings? or could it be my valves are not in time? could that be cause of low compression?
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i am just thinking out loud here, have you thought about doing a leakdown test? if you havent got the gear then someone local will have.
Basically compressed air is injected into each cylinder (making sure that the two valves ar 'on the rock' i.e. closed and the cam isnt acting on them) and then you measure the amount of time that the engine hold pressure.
If it drops slowly then rings are working, maybe not perfectly but working nonetheless.
If it drops rapidly then something is not right, either rings, valves not seating properly or a crack in head/block.
To check if its valves then all you have to do is make sure the air is leaking out the inlet or exhaust manifolds. If it is, valves/ head issue if not then bottom end issues.
As you have put it back together i would do the leakdown next to see whether head needs remedial work or if the rings need doing.
Might save a bit of time and at least helps to pinpoint the area of engine that needs investigation.
Kind regards
Nathan
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okay well heres the deal i bought the car for $500 the engine that was in it the block had a broken rod the go threw in 2 other spare 1.5L diesels one complete and the other was just a tranny and block so what i did was i took the head that was on the car orignially got all the valves and everything re done on that
Got exactly what redone?
Was it pressure tested?
check it for warpage just in case
Was valve clearance checked? make sure there is some clearance with the cam lobes pointed up.
check the one from the donor block for a big warp at the middle, or a crack to H2o.
Never presume that because a machine shop did work that it was done right.
and i took of the blocks that i cranked and it was free from binds and what not and i didnt do anything to the block except put on a new clutch kit and oil pan i
... i probably should of thought this wasnt right and stopped but i kept going and i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.. do you think maybe because they were hanging up they might of been torqued but it was not accurate reason for not having the compression?
clean it well, and measure stickup of all 4 pistons very carefully. if this block previously hydro locked in these 2 adjacent holes, the rods may be quite bent. all 4 should spec for the same head gasket thickness at the least.
What is the procedure you are currently using to tighten the head bolts?
IMO ring wear in 2 cyls is not the most likely thing.
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okay well heres the deal i bought the car for $500 the engine that was in it the block had a broken rod the go threw in 2 other spare 1.5L diesels one complete and the other was just a tranny and block so what i did was i took the head that was on the car orignially got all the valves and everything re done on that
Got exactly what redone?
Was it pressure tested?
check it for warpage just in case
Was valve clearance checked? make sure there is some clearance with the cam lobes pointed up.
check the one from the donor block for a big warp at the middle, or a crack to H2o.
Never presume that because a machine shop did work that it was done right.
and i took of the blocks that i cranked and it was free from binds and what not and i didnt do anything to the block except put on a new clutch kit and oil pan i
... i probably should of thought this wasnt right and stopped but i kept going and i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.. do you think maybe because they were hanging up they might of been torqued but it was not accurate reason for not having the compression?
clean it well, and measure stickup of all 4 pistons very carefully. if this block previously hydro locked in these 2 adjacent holes, the rods may be quite bent. all 4 should spec for the same head gasket thickness at the least.
What is the procedure you are currently using to tighten the head bolts?
IMO ring wear in 2 cyls is not the most likely thing.
i was told that the head got all new valves and it was checked for warpage valve clearance was checked i was told it was all good to go but to just make sure to do the valve shims
okay ill measure how much the pistons come up and see what they say.. and how i torq it down i go by what the Bentley says...? is that what you mean?
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Stretch bolts tighten differently form non-stretch ones, and the only torque number you had mentioned was 36 which isn't right.
So they didn't surface the head, replace guides, grind or replace valve seats, pressure test set valve face depth, set precup stickout, check for collapsed lifters...
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Stretch bolts tighten differently form non-stretch ones, and the only torque number you had mentioned was 36 which isn't right.
So they didn't surface the head, replace guides, grind or replace valve seats, pressure test set valve face depth, set precup stickout, check for collapsed lifters...
haha no no they did they did! thats what i was told was all done to the head :)
haha they say to torque the head to 36 then once the engine is heated up go back and torque the head bolts to 57 or somthing like that i dont have bently in front of me.. i havent gotten the engine to even fire up so i havent been able to torque them to the high number yet?
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Where are you getting the head torque spec from? The 1979 diesel Bentley says to torque in sequence to 22 ft lbs, then in sequence to 43 ft lbs, then in sequence to 61 ft lbs. Then after 1000 MILES or 1500 KM in reverse sequence loosen all of them 30°. Then in sequence tighten if cold to 61 ft lbs, if hot to 68 ft lbs.
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Stretch bolts tighten differently form non-stretch ones, and the only torque number you had mentioned was 36 which isn't right.
A 79 doesn't have stretch bolts but regardless, 36 is not right.
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Where are you getting the head torque spec from? The 1979 diesel Bentley says to torque in sequence to 22 ft lbs, then in sequence to 43 ft lbs, then in sequence to 61 ft lbs. Then after 1000 MILES or 1500 KM in reverse sequence loosen all of them 30°. Then in sequence tighten if cold to 61 ft lbs, if hot to 68 ft lbs.
yes i re read the Bentley and i was doing it wrong.... that is all corrected now!
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okay so this might be a dumb question and probably dumb of me to do... but i was thinking if maybe the valves were not closing all the way that compression was getting lost there... so i decided to take of the cam shaft so i knew forsure that the valves were closed and then i went and put on the compression tester i then went and cranked the block but nothing came up on the compression tester gauge why is this?
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There probably isn't much to compress with both valves closed.
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There probably isn't much to compress with both valves closed.
haha yeah i realized after thinking about it that you need air to get into the cylinders to create compression lol correct?
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Look closely on the block, at the pump-side head bolt hole between cylinders 3 & 4; my magnifying glass sees what looks-to-be some suspicious lines going out to the water jacket & to the oil feed hole. OTOH it could just be my silly eyes & pessimistic brain. Hope I'm wrong!
Back when they were new, our delivery guys cracked the block right there on an almost new '80 Rabbit "company car" 1.5L... the third time they blew the head gasket! Nice guys, but idiots, mechanically speaking.
J.R.
SoCal
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Look closely on the block, at the pump-side head bolt hole between cylinders 3 & 4; my magnifying glass sees what looks-to-be some suspicious lines going out to the water jacket & to the oil feed hole. OTOH it could just be my silly eyes & pessimistic brain. Hope I'm wrong!
Back when they were new, our delivery guys cracked the block right there on an almost new '80 Rabbit "company car" 1.5L... the third time they blew the head gasket! Nice guys, but idiots, mechanically speaking.
J.R.
SoCal
once i pull the head off ill take a look hope your wrong too!
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have the valves ever been adjusted?
valves that are out of adjustment will make for HORRIBLE compression.. oil wont really make the numbers go up much either, when its valves.
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have the valves ever been adjusted?
valves that are out of adjustment will make for HORRIBLE compression.. oil wont really make the numbers go up much either, when its valves.
yeah im gonna get the valves all adjustest and then re do compression test if it still fails i guess i jump into re doing rings then
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also if i can get my feeler gauge between a shim and lobe where should i start pull the shim out and see what size it is and go smaller shim from there? now do all shims they dont have to be identical correct just each valve needs the shim that will get it into spec? so i could have all different size shims on each valve correct? im just making sure i understand ha
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That is right, the shims dont have to be the same on all the valves, just build each shim pack to land in the range specified for each individual valve. i always aim for the tighter end of the clearance.
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That is right, the shims dont have to be the same on all the valves, just build each shim pack to land in the range specified for each individual valve. i always aim for the tighter end of the clearance.
gotcha! yeah i just pulled the shims off and noticed all where about 3.80mm or 3.75mm or 3.60mm makes sense now.. okay so now the bentley says .15mm - .25mm clearance for the intake valve and then .35mm-.45mm for exhaust valves do i want to aim to get like .20mm for intake valves and .40mm for exhaust valves? or it just doesnt matter as long as i hit .15 or inbetween and then .35mm and or inbettween ?
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so im working on getting my vavles all adjusted but i just want to make sure what valve is what... now looking at cylinder #1 is the valve on the left closest to the sprocket the exhaust valve and then next to it is the intake valve?
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Tighter isn't nessesarily better.
What we do around here is we have a tight and loose feeler gauge*if your numbers are accurate the I have a .15 and .35 for the tight ones and .25 and .45 for the loose ones*. If the tight one fits under and the loose one doesn't then that valve is done, move onto the next.
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Because the valves get tighter with wear, I prefer to err on the side of looser rather than tighter as it can extend the adjustment interval.
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Tim, note the intake and exhaust ports on the head. You can see the valve stems through the openings. Exhaust are the smaller ones no?
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Move your head a little bit further back and line up the cam lobes/valves with the intake or exhaust port on the back of the head.
The bottom head of this picture would be as if you were looking over the head from the top and looking down on it.
Exhaust/Intake/Exhaust/Intake/Intake/Exhaust/Intake/Exhaust starting from the belt and working towards the drivers side.
(http://www.scirocco.org/tech/mk2/8vbolton/chead_s.jpg)
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yeah i got the valves all figured out got this pic that helped!
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/in-out.jpg)
and so basicalily i want to shoot for like the biggest gap i can get between the lobs and the valves because over time the gap will get closer and closer together correct?
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I so wanted to do the E I E I OH? thing but without that picture I wasn't sure you would get the pun. OLD MCDONALD had an engine. Sing it baby.
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I so wanted to do the E I E I OH? thing but without that picture I wasn't sure you would get the pun. OLD MCDONALD had an engine. Sing it baby.
I think.. you need another beer? Or seriously need to go to sleep. LMFAO!
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I so wanted to do the E I E I OH? thing but without that picture I wasn't sure you would get the pun. OLD MCDONALD had an engine. Sing it baby.
E I E I OHHHHH!!! haha thats awesome man!!
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And after he wrote that OH
I wanted to write IO .... OH - IO .....it is a Buckeye thing LOL
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Glad you all got a chuckle out of it. You should be around when I have a few beers. Plenty of spray in the air.
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okay so here is what i got from what shims i need to get my valves in spec i just i want you guys to maybe check my work? ha
so first off here is my measurements i got with feeler gauge
Cylinder #1 E- 0.406mm I- 0.000mm ( no feeler gauge would fit in there that i had...)
Cylinder #2 E- 0.127mm I- 0.203mm
Cylinder #3 E- 0.051mm I- 0.127mm
Cylinder #4 E- 0.152mm I- 0.000mm
and here are the Shim sizes that were on each valve when i did the measurements
Cylinder #1 E- 3.50 I- 3.65
Cylinder #2 E- 3.60 I- 3.65
Cylinder #3 E- 3.60 I- 3.65
Cylinder #4 E- 3.60 I- 3.70
so i then got the difference between the clearances using for the Exhaust max clearance of 0.45mm and on the Intake max clearance of 0.25mm i took those numbers and subtracted with the numbers i got from the feeler gauges leaving me with differences of:
Cylinder #1 E- 0.044 I- 0.25
Cylinder #2 E- 0.323 I- 0.047
Cylinder #3 E- 0.399 I- 0.123
Cylinder #4 E- 0.298 I- 0.25
so with those numbers i then subtracted them from the Shims that i used resulting in getting the sizes of shims i need to use to get all valves in spec:
Cylinder #1 E- 3.45 I- 3.40
Cylinder #2 E- 3.27 ( so should i use a 3.30 then? round up?) I- 3.60
Cylinder #3 E- 3.20 I- 3.52 ( round up to 3.55? )
Cylinder #4 E- 3.30 I- 3.45
Okay sorry for all that Info i just wanted to check and make sure i do it correctly and buy the proper shims needed :)
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So they didn't surface the head, replace guides, grind or replace valve seats, pressure test set valve face depth, set precup stickout, check for collapsed lifters...
Interestingly, the most out of adjustment holes have the best compression.
I'll just repost this list to save my typing finger.
okay well heres the deal i bought the car for $500 the engine that was in it the block had a broken rod the go threw in 2 other spare 1.5L diesels one complete and the other was just a tranny and block so what i did was i took the head that was on the car orignially got all the valves and everything re done on that
Got exactly what redone?
Was it pressure tested?
check it for warpage just in case
Was valve clearance checked? make sure there is some clearance with the cam lobes pointed up.
check the one from the donor block for a big warp at the middle, or a crack to H2o.
Never presume that because a machine shop did work that it was done right.
and i took of the blocks that i cranked and it was free from binds and what not and i didnt do anything to the block except put on a new clutch kit and oil pan i
... i probably should of thought this wasnt right and stopped but i kept going and i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.. do you think maybe because they were hanging up they might of been torqued but it was not accurate reason for not having the compression?
clean it well, and measure stickup of all 4 pistons very carefully. if this block previously hydro locked in these 2 adjacent holes, the rods may be quite bent. all 4 should spec for the same head gasket thickness at the least.
What is the procedure you are currently using to tighten the head bolts?
IMO ring wear in 2 cyls is not the most likely thing.
i was told that the head got all new valves and it was checked for warpage valve clearance was checked i was told it was all good to go but to just make sure to do the valve shims
okay ill measure how much the pistons come up and see what they say.. and how i torq it down i go by what the Bentley says...? is that what you mean?
On the ones with 0 clearance, how are you figuring out what size shim you need? Did you check for crushed lifters? do you know the clearance is not less than 0?
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You will probably find the best way is to remove a shim from the pack fitted on the ones with no clearance ( if there is only 1 then you will have to substitute in a thinner shim). Torque it all back up and then re measure.
I would use a shim of half the thickness of the ones fitted to check what clearance you have.
Before you go changing anything you need to know what your baseline start position is.
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You will probably find the best way is to remove a shim from the pack fitted on the ones with no clearance ( if there is only 1 then you will have to substitute in a thinner shim). Torque it all back up and then re measure.
I would use a shim of half the thickness of the ones fitted to check what clearance you have.
Before you go changing anything you need to know what your baseline start position is.
yeah ill try and put in a smaller shim on the ones with zero clearance.
and what do you mean by baseline start position please explain :) how can i go about figuring that out?
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Do you have you clearance, or -0.003 clearance?
Install a thinner shim, and take a new measurement.
Recalculate.
Did you complete those checks on your old parts yet?
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By baseline I just meant that you need to have a known position from which to start.
As others have said on here if you didn't install thinner shims with a measurable gap then how would you know if there was no clearance or if the valve was being held off the seat? i.e a negative clearance?
Overall it is one of the most important rules of working on mechanical items. Always know where you are starting from otherwise you will be chasing your tail for forever and a day.
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okay guys got all the valves adjusted to spec and i did another compression test here is my readings...
#1 - 320
#2 - 260
#3 - 120
#4 - 210
so i guess i should pull the head and do the rings now? and i guess new head gasket and head bolts as well and hone the cylinder my only option next correct?
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How dead was the battery?
Go ahead and waste your money, but you really should read back through this thread, make every check that has been recommended, answer every question in detail, compile the results, and post all of it here in a clear, specific, and detailed way.
The info you need to make a correct diagnosis is here in this thread already.
If you skip steps, it will come out wrong almost every time.
I could tell you whats wrong, but without data to back my answer up, I'd be skipping a step, creating a chance I'd be wrong, then you'd go make the wrong repair and probably blame me.
/jaded prick mode.
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How dead was the battery?
Go ahead and waste your money, but you really should read back through this thread, make every check that has been recommended, answer every question in detail, compile the results, and post all of it here in a clear, specific, and detailed way.
The info you need to make a correct diagnosis is here in this thread already.
If you skip steps, it will come out wrong almost every time.
I could tell you whats wrong, but without data to back my answer up, I'd be skipping a step, creating a chance I'd be wrong, then you'd go make the wrong repair and probably blame me.
/jaded prick mode.
okay i will :) and i would never blame anyone but myself for mistakes being made on my engine ha i appreciate all the advice!
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okay so i got my pistons out find a few rings broken and blah blah anyway so i honed the cylinders some and i measured the pistons they read about 76mm and i measured the cylinders themselfs after honing and they read about 75.68mm somthing like that anyway now should i be looking at getting 76.5mm rings or 77mm ?
suggestions please..
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/6b0a3f7a.jpg)
i kind think i want to hone them some more but here a iphone pic...
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okay as i wait for parts to get here i decided to work on the brake situation i filled it up with fluid as much as it would take and i went ahead and started to bleed the brakes i started the passenger side rear it took a while but old fluid started to come out and finally the new fluid started flowing so done with that one i went to the drive side rear opened up the bleeder valve and had my help pump the brakes blah blah blah nothing is coming out... not even old brake fluid or anything so keep at it keep at it til my helped is tired and gives up nothing.. so as my helper left me i went ahead and retitened the bleeder valve and moved to the front drive just hooked it up opened up the bleed and went inside and pumped the brakes a few times and ran back out to look at my hose there is old brake fluid pushing out... so whats the deal with the driver side rear? could this be the issue why there was no brake fluid in the car at all could it all leaked out? what do you guys think?
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Time to pull apart that suspect cylinder. Might need new rubber cups and a hone inside it. Might have a blockage in the line as well. If you have a mighty mack vacuum pump you might have some luck pulling fluid to that cylinder. Time to move up the lines to the first junction block and see if fluid is getting from there to the brakes.
I smell a blockage and yes a lot of fluid can go out one bad cylinder but not all as there is a front and rear system here and you should have had some fluid in the fronts.
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Time to pull apart that suspect cylinder. Might need new rubber cups and a hone inside it. Might have a blockage in the line as well. If you have a mighty mack vacuum pump you might have some luck pulling fluid to that cylinder. Time to move up the lines to the first junction block and see if fluid is getting from there to the brakes.
I smell a blockage and yes a lot of fluid can go out one bad cylinder but not all as there is a front and rear system here and you should have had some fluid in the fronts.
just pulled off the drum and it is the cylinder that is frozen gonna pull it all apart tomorrow it is so filthy. the line bleeds up until the cylinder so no blockage in the line.
Also i noticed that the presure regulator didnt have a spring on it and the line on the side of it kind of bent up is that normal?
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Dude is your car two cars welded together?
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Dude is your car two cars welded together?
haha just the front
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When I bought my Rabbit two years ago I found that the rear brakes were not working at all. Totally frozen up cylinders. Rather than rebuild I just replaced them. Seems like they were less to buy all new than to get the rebuild parts. So I have a spare pair, just that they are frozen up.
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Yeah, unless they are unobtainable.. replace over rebuild is the way to go nowadays.
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Yes wheel cylinders are 5-10 bucks a piece, even if it only cost a dollar to rebuild both of them I'd still rather spend 20 bucks and save the time. Like axles, when the boots are torn I just replace the whole thing a boots 20 bucks an axle is 45 with a lifetime warranty, plus it's less work to just swap them out
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If I remember right I got them from NAPA, or another local auto parts store. Had them in stock of all things. For an 81? Must be pretty universal.
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They're all swappable as far as I know from like 75-99 if u have rear drums
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yeah im going to go pick up some new cylinders from autozone i got $20 dollar rewards so pretty much getting them for free :) ha and gonna stop by napa and put up new shoes some reason autozone doesn't carry them?
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sooo im rather frustrated. i got new rings and honed the cylinders on the block and anyway so im going to put in the freshly cleaned up piston and new rings and i get the piston in and then it just stopss wanting to go in after the first two rings so basicly one ring is still out... what the heck is going on here? is there just carbon build up i havent gotten out of the grooves enough what do you guys think? im almost just considing just ditching this freaking block and i using another block cleaning it up real good i have another unknow block with the head all messed up on it i mean i think the block should be okay?? but i havent inspected it yet on the head the cam shaft was snapped... so idk if thats a bad sign for the block or not what do you guys think?? i just dont want to keep messing with this block any longer when i could be cleaning up this other one and putting the new rings and stuff on it instead.... what you guys suggest? its def Corona:30 time right now! ha
the other block the original one had a broken rod... i dont know if that block might be better to use? then the other block i talked about above...
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Well I hope you are absolutely certain that the ring lands are cleaned out for 1. Are you using a ring compressor?
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Well I hope you are absolutely certain that the ring lands are cleaned out for 1. Are you using a ring compressor?
yeah they are im gonna take another look at them again i just picked up some chem-dip so i got one piston soaking in it right now hopefully that will eat up and remove all the carbon on them. ill report back and see how it does! and yeah im using a ring compressor like i can get the piston down to where all rings are in the cylinder it just wont go down more... so maybe i didnt get all the carbon out of the piston grooves?
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so cleaning up the pistons really good i got this chem-dip stuff from autozone works really well heres one that was soaked for 2 hours and then took it out and dipped it in water and brushed with a plastic brush
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/218181ec.jpg)
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so i got all the pistons in went in smoothly and got everything back togetehr oil pan back on and now just waiting for my head gasket and head bolts to get here! also i did notice that its alittle hard to crank and move the pistons now idk maybe they just dont have enough lubricant cuz i didnt have oil pan on when i was trying to turn it to tighten down piston bolts to the crank is that to be expected like there no binds its just really hard to turn it but it will get 360 no trouble just more effort..
also i re did my rear drums with new shows and new wheel cylinders i got it all back together bleed the whole car and then as i put a wheel on and spun it and go on the brakes i hear this burst of air and it was one of the brake lines that goes under the carpet on the driver side where can i get a new steel line? what should i do suggestions please!
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Can you splice in a new piece of line with some compression fittings or not?
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Compression fittings are not rated for the potential pressures in a braking system during panic stops. Flare fittings are. Use flares.
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dooh, Gee how did I space that one out. What do they look like when you take them off the back of the brake cylinder? Good that you caught my safety bad. I know better. A coupler with flare ends. Might just need to cut and clean the line off and slip on the nuts, flare tool a bit and tighten. Let us know how it comes out.
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if you wana screw with the stealership... factory recall on the inside brake line... free!!!! just a fyi..
buy a couple 30/0 long lines, some couplers to hook them together.. or get the $$$$$$$ bulk line.. real soft/easy to bend.. supposedly no rust too.. and then flair the ends..
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okay so to sum up things i have new rod bearings new pistons rings the block cylinders honed and a new head gasket new head bolts the head is good the valves are adjusted correctly... i torqued down the head and all but number 2 bolt would torque its like it wont tighten i did clean all the block head bolt holds but on #2 this was a prevous problem i was having the threads got messed up but i ran a tap in the block and cleaned them up cut a few new threads at the top that got messed up but i just tightened it much as i could and then torqued all the others.. i guess this might be the cause of my problem because all thought compression in the cylinders has all jumped up to about 300-320 range its still not hitting that 400 mark i need to be at correct?
so i kinda dont know what i can do here i guess because i cant get #2 bolt torqued thats the reason why im losing the compression. i do have 2 other 1.5L blocks one has a broken rod and other the head is all messed up the cam shaft was snapped on it but idk maybe the block is still good? i was thinking of just pulling the engine out of the car and then using that block or atleast inspecting it and just honing and then moving my pistons and new rings and bearings to that block and then putting the head all that stuff back on it. would that be a good idea? just ditch this block because that #2 bolt cant torque i just i dont know what else to do. suggestions please..
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Go ahead and waste your money, but you really should read back through this thread, make every check that has been recommended, answer every question in detail, compile the results, and post all of it here in a clear, specific, and detailed way.
The info you need to make a correct diagnosis is here in this thread already.
If you skip steps, it will come out wrong almost every time.
okay i will :)
???
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also i have another question now when i was torqueing the head to the block yes my #2 bolt stripped the threads or wouldnt torque down but after doing the other bolts i did notice doing the torque sequence as described going from 37 ft lbs to 57 and then to 66 not all of the bolts would torque at 66... they didnt feel like tighting up more why would this be? is it a common thing that happens to 1.5L blocks because they are 11mm and is that why people use head stud bolts?
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Are your bolts too long or the flat washers too flat. So that you are running out of length to tighten? That is the only thing I can think of that would prevent you from tightening to spec torque.
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Are your bolts too long or the flat washers too flat. So that you are running out of length to tighten? That is the only thing I can think of that would prevent you from tightening to spec torque.
hmm i dont think soo... i just bought these bolts from the gap
http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Rabbit/Engine/104/1
they are 11x98
is there any other place that might sell longer 11mm bolts?
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You don't want longer bolts you want shorter or thicker washers under the head of the bolt and between the car head you are squeezing down. Or are you asking if some places sell bolts that are too long to begin with?
I am not sure of the length. At one time I knew but I have slept since then and consumed a beer or two as well. CRS.
I do know that when I did my head a bit ago I had purchased a set of 12 mm expecting to have to replace them. Once I got going on the repair I determined I had the 10mm hex head style and that fancy 12 pt hex bit was going in the tool box unused. The 12 mm bolts were longer by quite a bit so the 98's might be what I used over.
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Hmm, ETKA shows me an 11x1.5x96 bolt for the head bolt for 1979's with serial codes prior to 799,999. Then the 11x1.5x98 for 800,000 and on wards until the 1.6.
Looks like you need thicker washers then buddy.
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My friend bought a box of bolts that cheap, and a fair percentage of them stretched, then broke before reaching torque.
Seemed to do OK if they survived the torque down, and we had a lot of spares.
Is it even a stretch bolt on the 1.5?
If the block is split, the bolts won't grab.
Measure piston protrusion yet?
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f i get head studs and put them in this block they do go down farther then the head bolts so im thinking that a stud would go into the #2 and be fine.... but if it still doesnt give me the compression or whatever i need can i pull the head studs out and reuse them in another block?
pretty much can head studs be put into an block and then removed later and reused again?
thank you guys for all your help i really appreciate it!
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Can't answer that question having never installed studs in head. Very interesting on the bolt 8V. Grind off 2.5 mm? could that be a solution? Nah, better to just go another washer.
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Can't answer that question having never installed studs in head. Very interesting on the bolt 8V. Grind off 2.5 mm? could that be a solution? Nah, better to just go another washer.
i just dont understand why it would be the washer though? cuz its not like the bolts are even bottomin out or is it because the head bolts ive been using the washer is to thick only allowing just alittle bit of the head bolt to thread into the block and then when i go to torque it the bolt eats up the threads in the block because they are weaker at the top... so with a smaller washer the bolt can thread down more into the block allowing it to be torqued and not chew up the threads in the block? but my question is why do they make these head bolts then if they wont even work? it just doesnt make any sense to me.. am i using the wrong head bolts? on another block the head bolts are not the 12mm they are the hex ones what if i just swapped those out and then try those and just see? i know you cant reuse head bolts but it might be atleast worth the test? idk
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Can't answer that question having never installed studs in head. Very interesting on the bolt 8V. Grind off 2.5 mm? could that be a solution? Nah, better to just go another washer.
i just don't understand why it would be the washer though? cuz its not like the bolts are even bottoming I thought they were bottoming out and you couldn't get them to spec because of it/out or is it because the head bolts I've been using the washer is to thick only allowing just a little bit of the head bolt to thread into the block The threads are likely way down and you have plenty of bite there\ and then when i go to torque it the bolt eats up the threads in the block because they are weaker at the top...The bolts are chewing up the top part of the threads? Like stripped out?/ so with a smaller washer the bolt can thread down more into the block allowing it to be torqued and not chew up the threads in the block? No, no, no we were thinking you use what you had AND add another thin washer. This would give you more distance at the bottom of the block to send the threads into and could get your spec torque setting of 66\but my question is why do they make these head bolts then if they wont even work?Do you have some poor quality steel or what? This sounds funky to me. Pictures of bolts or threaded holes chewed up might help\ it just doesn't make any sense to me.. am i using the wrong head bolts? on another block the head bolts are not the 12mm they are the hex ones Yep 10 mm hex heads are the 11 mm diameter and won't work for you so stop right there\what if i just swapped those out and then try those and just see? i know you cant reuse head bolts but it might be at least worth the test? idk But you do now, can't be done.
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Where is vw Tim located? We need to dispatch a service technician from vwdiesel.net to his location in order to straighten this mess out
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NO DUH!
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Can't answer that question having never installed studs in head. Very interesting on the bolt 8V. Grind off 2.5 mm? could that be a solution? Nah, better to just go another washer.
i just don't understand why it would be the washer though? cuz its not like the bolts are even bottoming I thought they were bottoming out and you couldn't get them to spec because of it/out or is it because the head bolts I've been using the washer is to thick only allowing just a little bit of the head bolt to thread into the block The threads are likely way down and you have plenty of bite there\ and then when i go to torque it the bolt eats up the threads in the block because they are weaker at the top...The bolts are chewing up the top part of the threads? Like stripped out?/ so with a smaller washer the bolt can thread down more into the block allowing it to be torqued and not chew up the threads in the block? No, no, no we were thinking you use what you had AND add another thin washer. This would give you more distance at the bottom of the block to send the threads into and could get your spec torque setting of 66\but my question is why do they make these head bolts then if they wont even work?Do you have some poor quality steel or what? This sounds funky to me. Pictures of bolts or threaded holes chewed up might help\ it just doesn't make any sense to me.. am i using the wrong head bolts? on another block the head bolts are not the 12mm they are the hex ones Yep 10 mm hex heads are the 11 mm diameter and won't work for you so stop right there\what if i just swapped those out and then try those and just see? i know you cant reuse head bolts but it might be at least worth the test? idk But you do now, can't be done.
okay ill take pictures today when i get off work also maybe they are bottoming out and thats why im having my issues but when i had my head off i put one of the head bolts in the holes and measured how much it gets poked through and i put some tap top of the head bolt so just show that this amount gets threaded into the block and it really wasnt that much so i screwed it into the block and i could keep screwing it in way past that point til it reached the bottom.
and ill take pics once i pull the head off the block to just show exactly what i mean and whats going on soon as i get off work today!
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okay so here is what ive come up with and i think it really rules out that the head bolts are bottoming out and thats why i cant get them torqued... let me begind with this comparison i have another engine that has the allen head bolts on it and so i took one of those out to compare it with the head bolts that ive been using...
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/bb1fe185.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/6e088919.jpg)
and from what i can tell just buy eye balling it i can get measurments on it as well but they pretty much look identical i think the allen one is a tiny bit longer but still the washers are the same size. and so that brings me to this point if the washers are the same size then it cant be the washer size that isnt allowing me to torque i think if put on another washer like everyone suggested it wouldnt even be able to thread into the block.. but i may be wrong anyway so next thing i did was put the head bolt i was using and the allen head bolt and i put it into the head and see how much of it sticks out and i put some white paint on the threads to show how much sticks out...
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/8916d32c.jpg)
and now it looks like the same length on both head bolts stick out
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/f0c6f125.jpg)
( the washer fell off the allen bolt but i did have it on when i put it in the head)
now i then screwed it into the block just by hand as far as i could turn it til it stopped which i assumed it bottomed out and then i marked it again
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/7eb892bd.jpg)
and so i pulled it out and compared it with the other exact same head bolt and here is what i got there is a gap between them..
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/38691b82.jpg)
but dont get me wrong i do understand that just because i set a head bolt into the head doesnt mean it will screw down farther but i mean is it really gonna tighten down so much more that it will bottom out? i personally dont think so... but please what do you guys think? any other things i could do to test this i just really want to get to the bottom of all this.
i think i might just buy some head studs and stop wasting my money on head bolts and stuff idk head studs sound like the way to go with these 11mm size blocks because then i can tighten the stud down all the way past the point a head bolt can go i think that might fix my issue and i can then have the head fully torqued down. Or i was thinking of just cleaning up this other block i have idk what do you guys suggest there thank you!
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i have another engine that has the Allen head bolts on it and so i took one of those out to compare it with the head bolts that ive been using...
Do you have the original head bolts that were working prior to teardown? As it was stated here there were bolts that were 2 mm shorter and counting the number of threads between the white lines in the last picture on an 11 mm 1.5 pitch bolt is just about 2 mm is it not?
There is no way I can see where the bolts you have presented will work to tighten the head down. And you will need more washers then I would be comfortable throwing on there to get things tight.
So if you don't have short bolts somewhere I would be going for the studs. It is your call but that is what it looks like to me is the best case solution.
Super Weird or Very Weird as is the case. Why do you thing they have the VW emblem on the front of every car?
let us know how the studs work out.
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okay so im gonna replace all the brake lines in the car and i just have a few questions:
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/f7184801.jpg)
what is this? is it a check valve which keeps fluid constantly in the back and wont allow it to flow back forward or is it just a connecting thing? Its the piece that is located inside the car it connects line coming from the MC to the line that runs into the pressure regulator thing this thing:
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/8014aad5.jpg)
what does that presure regulator exactly do?
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Looks like a connector to me. Good luck getting that apart. Heavy soaking with penetrating oil a couple of times then good wrenches on what you have. Lay one on the other and squeeze them together towards each other. Be a 1/6 turn maybe. Best way I know to keep from slipping the wrenches off and buggering up the flats of the nuts.
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good LINE wrenches on what you have.
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Most of my best "LINE" wrenches end up being vice grips in the end. Just don't have the money or need for them special tools. Don't do it often enough.
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i actually found out there brake proportioning valves.
http://forums.motivemag.com/showthread.php?4844361
and yeah i got them soaking right now! ha hope these come off smoothly and easy
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the last pic looks like a load sensing prop valve.. let me re-phrase that, it IS a load sensing prop valve.
the first pic looks like a NON-load sensing prop valve, or residual pressure valve.
yes, you CAN run without a prop valve, but your rear brakes will be locking up all the time, unless you keep a substantial load in the back.
i bled the brakes on my GTI once, and accidentally left the prop valve OPEN (so it basically was not working) and the brakes worked AMAZING.. holy hell it would stop quick.. but if you dogged the brakes, the backs would just lock up and you would slide sideways.
if nothing else, install some mk2 non load sensing prop valves in there..
delete the one under the truck, and install the ones on the master cylinder.. need some pics? my GTI (86 golf at heart) has them on the master cylinder, where as a real GTI will have a load sensing prop valve under the back seat, drivers side..
the load sensing valves ALMOST ALWAYS LEAK..
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I couldn't make heads or tails out of the second picture not ever having laid under a pickup to have that knowledge. Now that I know the picture was taken from under the truck and not looking down into the engine bay I can relate. Thanks.
Now you AND I know what they are. DAS
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so got my head studs in and the head and head gasket back on everything is finally torqued down! got it torqued down to 65 ft lbs. now time to get the rest of the engine put back together and get this thing back in the car!
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so little update whats been going on engine still isnt back in the car. im still working on replacing all the brake lines and now i have to replace fuel tank and all fuel lines they all started to leak ha so i pulled out the rear suspension assembly and fuel tank gonna take out all the lines next and then i guess it would be a perfect opportunity to get the floor pans replaced sense no fuel lines and all that will be out of the way.
So where is the cheapest place to buy floor pans or do i even need to replace the floor pan just cut a piece of metal to fill up the big hole i have? what do you guys think?
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Depends how bad it is, and/or how much you want to spend. I have seen patch jobs outlast the rest of the car, so a whole new floor pan is only if you are going for 100% resto I feel. If it doesn't interfere with how the seat bolts down and is safe, I'd just patch it up.
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Pick n pull half off this weekend.
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so i just wanted to update alittle bit last night i worked on cleaning up the floor pans more to get all that nasty tar stuff off and so heres what i did
using heat gun and a putty knife i just heated it up and slided the puddy knife underneath and it brought up the tar like butter it was so easy and quick!
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/03AD73F9-9E49-4DCE-AFAC-75583A53BC90-110-00000003CDEAD159.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/3A827B41-1CD9-4A46-A0E3-1C47956FE792-110-00000003BDE706FD.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/0C1C8C82-6BAC-4963-9555-A5193C85F481-110-00000003C6EEC4F0.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/D1DC64E0-963E-41F5-98FD-240ED03C14B7-110-00000003DC3840DD.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/AF807C77-AFA6-4341-9D99-5921F90D2E4D-110-00000003D4E07A58.jpg)
and you can see the hole im dealing with on the passenger side the driver side has small holes in it but nothing bad... i should just replace both while im at it i think
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I hate you a little for this. I never thought of the heat gun. I used a wire wheel on a grinder, it probably took me 8 hours of work time to get it a good surface to weld to.
Nice work BTW.
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I saw someone just dumped pellets of dry ice on that stuff and it came out in cracked up pieces with no mess.
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Whomever that is, I hate them a little too.
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haha dont hate just learn for next time :) yeah i honestly did both rear sides in about an hour.... :P im gonna try and get all the upper tar off the fire wire gonna get rid of it all!
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okay so got a question so i got the engine out and just wanting to clean up the engine bay i figure now is the time to do so i was wanting to just re paint it clean it up some. anyway i was thinking of sand blasting it but have read some stuff not to go with sand because its hazardous and it heats up the metal too much so i was thinking of making this and doing baking soda?
http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/ (http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/)
and heres a pic of the bay im gonna remove the steering rack and shift linkage as well just havent gotten there yet.
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/28772C34-8078-4172-B4DF-92F014D5628A-3213-000002C3743650D6.jpg)
what do you guys think is best way to do this?
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Wow, was that entire front end welded onto your car, or is that the blasting?
So I know its a little late but wanted to post this here anyway for future reference:
http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/126135-diy-sound-deadening-removal-dry-ice.html
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Looking at the surface corrosion on the bulhead and up on the top of the inner wing where the outer wing bolts compared to the corrosion on the green front end i would hazard a guess that it has been replaced.
I am not sure that soda blasting will remove surface corrosion unless you have a pro do it, home blast cabinets and single phase compressors would struggle unless you use grit.
I use aluminium grit on delicate parts and it is a great halfway house between the steel shot and soda.
Will you be doing it yourself?
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so just alittle update here i started sandblasting the engine bay and it works pretty good it just slow process anyway heres a pic i should have this thing blasted in next couple days if i keep at it ha
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/6E792296-B19A-401D-8749-224CBB218C0D-577-0000006150984D8E.jpg)
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That is working well, blasting is a slow job!
Can definitely see that weld on the inner wing now. When was the front end replaced?
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That is working well, blasting is a slow job!
Can definitely see that weld on the inner wing now. When was the front end replaced?
i have no idea and yeah its a slow job but itll get there eventually ha is there anything i can do about that weld on the wing i was thinking of grinding it down i just want to to be alittle smoother but will that compromise the strength of it? i would like this engine bay to be all smooth and appear to be one solid piece if possible once i paint it and everything ha
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i have no idea and yeah its a slow job but itll get there eventually ha is there anything i can do about that weld on the wing i was thinking of grinding it down i just want to to be alittle smoother but will that compromise the strength of it? i would like this engine bay to be all smooth and appear to be one solid piece if possible once i paint it and everything ha
I would grind the weld down very carefully, then apply the necessary bondo to smooth it out. If you don't grind down to the base metal of the weld, then (provided there's good penetration!) it should be fine with a little surface grinding. Check the other side of the weld to make sure there's adequate penetration, then go for it.
Other than that, all I can say is that I wish I had a sandblasting setup myself--looking forward to the final result. Should be good stuff for ya :D
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i have no idea and yeah its a slow job but itll get there eventually ha is there anything i can do about that weld on the wing i was thinking of grinding it down i just want to to be alittle smoother but will that compromise the strength of it? i would like this engine bay to be all smooth and appear to be one solid piece if possible once i paint it and everything ha
I would grind the weld down very carefully, then apply the necessary bondo to smooth it out. If you don't grind down to the base metal of the weld, then (provided there's good penetration!) it should be fine with a little surface grinding. Check the other side of the weld to make sure there's adequate penetration, then go for it.
Other than that, all I can say is that I wish I had a sandblasting setup myself--looking forward to the final result. Should be good stuff for ya :D
good deal ill give it a shot and see how i can clean this up i should be updating with pics this week on progress hopefully if school allows ha
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so i sand blasted the engine bay more and then primed it up some gonna go back and sand it and prime some more i know this isnt gonna be a show car or anything i just want it too look good and i also made a tiptissorie which works really good! im pretty stoked on it and gonna start cleaning up the underside now
some pics:
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/3566F061-BF3F-47F9-8E70-992230796AC3-4171-000004B98F3E01E6.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/996C6913-DD42-4ADA-B3AC-F30F9CBC98AB-4171-000004B9889F62B4.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/2048E3F7-8910-4212-9FEF-774D33BCED08-4171-000004B981BFAB7F.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/2AFC4631-9180-4180-AA09-1A3991D4D81C-4171-000004B97BBD409B.jpg)
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If you've got it that torn down, I think it'd be a real shame to not stitch weld the chassis while you're at it..
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If you want it to stay in this condition forever. RUST BULLET. Nothing works better.
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so just wanting to update alittle bit ive been wire wheeling the bottom cleaning stuff up i should have it all cleaned up pretty soon then i was thinking of cutting out the rust and prepare to weld in new floor pans what do you guys suggest on cutting the metal out?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/63E77F30-0ADA-47D0-A140-A64034508995-1830-000001E679403C1F.jpg)
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If you want it to stay in this condition forever. RUST BULLET. Nothing works better.
i will definitely consider that! isnt it just like the por15 stuff?
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Strong work!! looking great. I love the wooden rotisserie too, fantastic idea.
I use a selection of grinders, mini - 9".
Used plenty of plasma's in the course of work but always on heavy gauge ( 10mm and above) never tried it on bodywork.
I do keep looking at the one in Frost restoration catalogue.
Keep it up fella.
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Some people say that Rust bullet is the same as por15, but I have used both. I would pay 2x as much for Rust Bullet as I would for Por 15. There is no comparision to rust and corrosion protection. Plus, I know they are not the same as Rust Bullet is UV stable and Por 15 is not, unless you buy the topcoat for it, then you have to use the original underneath. I haven't used it for a boat, but on the directions it says if you follow the directions on Rust Bullet and put 2 coats on a boat hull, it will protect it indefinately in saltwater use...I believe them from the results I have seen. >endplug
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Some people say that Rust bullet is the same as por15, but I have used both. I would pay 2x as much for Rust Bullet as I would for Por 15. There is no comparision to rust and corrosion protection. Plus, I know they are not the same as Rust Bullet is UV stable and Por 15 is not, unless you buy the topcoat for it, then you have to use the original underneath. I haven't used it for a boat, but on the directions it says if you follow the directions on Rust Bullet and put 2 coats on a boat hull, it will protect it indefinately in saltwater use...I believe them from the results I have seen. >endplug
okay right on! ill go with the rust bullet then ha
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okay so i have a question i have pretty much both floors wirewheeled and cleaned up but should i do the rest of the car where the tank goes and the wheel well? or should i leave the factory like rubbery stuff? what do you guys suggest?
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If you are going to rust bullet do it all.
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If you are going to rust bullet do it all.
okay i will i guess i should do it all the first time rather then risk it later
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so just wanted to do an update got the engine bay all painted a solid color pretty much just spray bombed it but its looks better then it did so itll do. just wanted to post up some picks hopefully ill be buying a welder soon and then ill get these holes in the floor all fixed up!
before:
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/04953BA8-115C-4492-9849-92AA656BC73C-9986-000007E5F5D6ACCC.jpg)
after:
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/EB2CC6B4-9CEF-4013-9F71-8C4EABAC83D1-9986-000007E60FED4DCC.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/CF09BFE1-AC82-48EA-9A10-A55688F534D6-9986-000007E61A71B0C7.jpg)
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Starting to look at the floor boards now I'm a little concerned with rust here. I dont know if this is a big deal but how much rust is to much rust that just isn't worth fixing? should i be concerned with any of this stuff here? I'm manly looking at like the tunnel part that concerns me.
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/03DC3184-94A3-4086-9F66-DBED5DFCD928-663-0000002D27FDECE3.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/D38BFCA1-CC8E-448D-A0A5-F23B09A7CC56-663-0000002D305ADA54.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/ED8C175A-9BCA-416C-9FA8-3D286F912394-663-0000002D364AE726.jpg)
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/51725C27-C517-4F92-BE01-2EACD1F95F9F-663-0000002D3C8EC288.jpg)
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If you aren`t cutting into structural areas, and aren`t buying pans - just start welding together patch panels, you`ll be surprised how fast it goes. You can beat on the metal and form it to fit the most difficult areas too. Use a tire or a block of wood for an anvil if nothing else.
I know you aren`t experienced with welding, but once you have some practice its possible to do great work with even a $99 harbor freight welder. For this kind of work that is so rusty and dirty i`d hang up my TIG and go to the stick welder - or if no experience use ANY flux core wire welder.
Just tack in an area, move on every few inches and do the same, go over it all with a wire wheel on a grinder then repeat - you`ll get much better results than if you try to tack on top of slag, etc. The cleaner you can get your weld area the better your results will be, even if its rusty and pitted.
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If you aren`t cutting into structural areas, and aren`t buying pans - just start welding together patch panels, you`ll be surprised how fast it goes. You can beat on the metal and form it to fit the most difficult areas too. Use a tire or a block of wood for an anvil if nothing else.
I know you aren`t experienced with welding, but once you have some practice its possible to do great work with even a $99 harbor freight welder. For this kind of work that is so rusty and dirty i`d hang up my TIG and go to the stick welder - or if no experience use ANY flux core wire welder.
Just tack in an area, move on every few inches and do the same, go over it all with a wire wheel on a grinder then repeat - you`ll get much better results than if you try to tack on top of slag, etc. The cleaner you can get your weld area the better your results will be, even if its rusty and pitted.
okay good deal man! and yeah i have 0 experience with welding but I guess doing these floor pans is a good time to start and learn how to weld. so somthing like this would be decent enough to replace my floor pans?
so you think just picking up this would be good to learn on and just get these floor pans done money got really tight for me.
http://www.harborfreight.com/Wire-Welder-90-Amp-Flux-68887.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiMjk5NzI0ODUiLCJza3UiOiI2ODg4NyIsImlzIjoiOTkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0AIjoiODQ5NCJ9%0D%0A
i was saving up to get this should:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306073_200306073
should i just save up the money or just go with the cheaper HF one and maybe once i get more experienced and $ saved up buy something better? what do you think cuz it looks like i just need to be welding in new floor pans nothing else.
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The Hobart is a much better machine and should you ever want to weld together something then having the MIG ability is a big plus. The extra control you get will also make it a less frustrating learning experience. Check eBay for good deals on these sometimes with a little more gear included for the price. I really would like to have any of the smaller Hobarts up to the 210. I had a Lincoln 180C for a while, basically the same machine in terms of quality.
The $99 harbor freight welder is alright too if you are either patient and get it dialed in well OR plan to toss it after this single project is done and gone. I wouldn`t go so far as saying its a good starter machine, because it may be frustrating to learn on it. I can weld anything with a battery and some form of consumable so thats why I give it a couple stars...
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Welding thin rusted panels using the HF rig will be a *** without voltage control. Neither will run .024 wire which would be my first choice.
In CA non rusty floor pans should be pretty easy to find in the junk yard still. i'd expect that to go faster than forming a bunch of patches, and all the rippling in the floor actually does do something for the feel of the car. the HF autodark welding helmet sucks monkeyball, but is good enough to help with the learning curve.
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I agree on the hood ^ it's not exactly a good bet for your eyes. And since you are learning a auto dark hood will help you a whole lot. I don`t use an auto dark hood except for TIG. What I do is get a big bright halogen style light shining on the work, it will reflect enough light to see what you are doing between welds. This is more of a suggestion to save money also. A decent hood is around $100 at a supplier like AirGas.
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so im thinking of getting one of these helmets reviews seem good and price seems right. also i think i might just have to go for the HF and patch these holes up i cant spend the $ for the mig welder with gas right now gotta keep on a budget ha also going with the HF with no gas just using the flux core what size sheet metal should i be looking at to patch up these holes? and any tips on how i should go about welding them on with not burning threw the metal i read about drilling holes and then filling the holds plug welding i wanna say? what do you guys suggest?
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if you drill holes and plug weld them you`ll be creating a layer of metal that rust will quickly form inside of. Also, you can plug weld without drilling holes if ever needed, you just heat up a real hot puddle and the two layers will weld together.
As for burning holes - you won`t have much trouble with that welder, turn it down to start and gradually go up as you practice. Ultimately you want your tack welds to be as hot as you are able to control without burn through. Use 16 ga steel for the patch panels, its thicker than stock and will help you out a bit with this patch job.
Cut up a bunch of strips and practice welding on those - you wont be running beads, more like a lot of tack welds moving around your work as the prior welds cool. Think like 1-3 seconds per tack, long enough for it to get hot and puddle then move on.
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I got a harbor freight welder and mask a couple weeks ago and its been kind of rough for me as a newbie. I clean everything to get good connections and try and look at their video guides but the darn thing just seems so jumpy and I don't feel in control at all. Also I bet my inexperience shows in that I have got pieces red hot only to find my weld chunks fall off, lol.
I think practicing on scrap is definately the way to go, I melted through a spot on the front core support. Eventually I got some stuff I was doing to stick after smacking things around with a hammer to make sure they were holding ok but I'm not confident. My stuff isn't as critical as yours.
I should have practiced myself before jumping in, no better way than to get the feel yourself I guess. I also bought lincoln wire like others have said to.
If you hunt online you can beat your local sales I think for both mask and welder by searching google for national coupons to print out. I got the welder for $89.99 and mask for $39.99
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I got a harbor freight welder and mask a couple weeks ago and its been kind of rough for me as a newbie. I clean everything to get good connections and try and look at their video guides but the darn thing just seems so jumpy and I don't feel in control at all. Also I bet my inexperience shows in that I have got pieces red hot only to find my weld chunks fall off, lol.
I think practicing on scrap is definately the way to go, I melted through a spot on the front core support. Eventually I got some stuff I was doing to stick after smacking things around with a hammer to make sure they were holding ok but I'm not confident. My stuff isn't as critical as yours.
I should have practiced myself before jumping in, no better way than to get the feel yourself I guess. I also bought lincoln wire like others have said to.
If you hunt online you can beat your local sales I think for both mask and welder by searching google for national coupons to print out. I got the welder for $89.99 and mask for $39.99
right on man yeah im not going into this purchase thinking its gonna be easy and a great welder i just need to get these holes patched as affordable as i can. and okay ill practice a ton before i just dive in thank you for the advice I appreciate it :)
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Not having an analog voltage control is like trying to paint in handcuffs.
Or driving with a Nintendo64 controller.
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Not having an analog voltage control is like trying to paint in handcuffs.
Or driving with a Nintendo64 controller.
the 100A HF welder will BLOW right thru rusted sheet metal..
dont waste your money. you need a heat control. the HF machine only has wire speed control..
i have to turn my miller ALMOST ALL THE WAY DOWN to be able to weld sheet metal without much hassle..
you will be cursing more than welding, if you try and use the HF machine without heat control, trust us on this one..
you would be money ahead buying a refurbed, or used 110v lincoln/miller/hobart/esab machine... you NEED something with voltage control to do sheet metal work..
even a BIGGER HF machine will do the trick.. ive done lots of exhaust and body work with a 180 amp chicago electric (harbor freight) welding machine..
dont waste your money on the 100 amp HF machine.. its only good for welding certain metal thicknesses, and it doesnt even do that very good.
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so i guess ill throw in the extra money and pick up this one
http://www.harborfreight.com/170-amp-migflux-wire-welder-22-volts-110-amps-68885.html
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Okay so the time has come to spend some $ on a welder and I was thinking is it really gonna be worth it to spend atleast $500 on a welder and learn which I do want to learn how to weld and I figure it would be fun but is it worth it to get this shell fixed up? I'm thinking maybe I should just scrap the shell cuz it does have other problem areas that bug me. I was thinking of trying to pick up another shell one that hasn't had another clip welded up to it and one with not a ton of rust. I found this one.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5864410-FT-80-Rabbit-for-parts-wheels-etc (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5864410-FT-80-Rabbit-for-parts-wheels-etc)....
So I do pick it up would it be all that hard to get my little Diesel engine running in it? Can I do a gas car and turn it into a diesel Fairly easy? Thoughts please :)
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But it still has a ton of rust. Going to leak on you soon.
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But it still has a ton of rust. Going to leak on you soon.
yeah thats true...
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Find a clean shell and call it a day. You will be driving your car A lot quicker than performing constant rust repairs.
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I love seeing them get saved but a new shell is the easiest route
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yeah i guess ill be on the hunt for somthing rust free it just seems like everyone is selling somthing with alittle bit of rust but on a better note.
I'm happy to say i got the engine in the car and rigged it up so i could start it!It worked all though it didn't run great it ran! i did notice some issues though and just wondering what could they be like whats best way to fix this.
I figure the IP is not timed so i plan to get a gauge for that also when it was running i pulled on the thottle level part and it didnt effect the engine at all it didnt seem to work would that be because the IP isnt in time?
the other thing was i noticed on the first and second injector that they were bubbling with fuel like there isnt a good seal does that mean its a bad injector?
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have you bought floor pans yet???? I hope after spending all this time. you are going to buy some floor pans..
Dan
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have you bought floor pans yet???? I hope after spending all this time. you are going to buy some floor pans..
Dan
Use some self tapping screws and some thick sheet metal. Done. I've done it before! LMAO.
The throttle does nothing on your pump because it is full of air, from when you had the fuel lines disconnected. Also why its running ***ty.
Where is it leaking from on the injectors? the small lines in between? did you remove the lines when you did the swap?
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have you bought floor pans yet???? I hope after spending all this time. you are going to buy some floor pans..
Dan
Use some self tapping screws and some thick sheet metal. Done. I've done it before! LMAO.
The throttle does nothing on your pump because it is full of air, from when you had the fuel lines disconnected. Also why its running ***ty.
Where is it leaking from on the injectors? the small lines in between? did you remove the lines when you did the swap?
haha honestly i might say *** it and do the self tapping screws :P haha
so the injectors were bubbling up seems like with fuel i pulled them out and used teflon tape and replaced them and made sure they were all torqued down i havent started it up yet to see.
so if there is air in the fuel system then thats the reason for no throttle i did bleed the pump pulling fuel threw the return line. i might of not had the steel lines on tight enough i will check all of this soon and start it up again and see how she does.
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No sealant of any kind is needed or desired within an inch of the injectors
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No tape on injectors, anti seize maybe a light coat but no tape. Too hot, wrong application, this isn't a natural gas line here. Sometimes pumps kind of hold and hide some air in them even after they start up and idle. I see it when I tear apart the pump or really get it filled with air on the WVO side. Yeah, when it is acting poorly.
If you watch the clear line on the return hose you will see these racing back to the mother ship of the fuel tank at times when you race it up. Do that a few times after you get it warmed up. Oh you don't have a clear line yet? For Shame.
I wonder if the tape is going to cause you to have to re-torque these after a bit?
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No tape on injectors, anti seize maybe a light coat but no tape. Too hot, wrong application, this isn't a natural gas line here. Sometimes pumps kind of hold and hide some air in them even after they start up and idle. I see it when I tear apart the pump or really get it filled with air on the WVO side. Yeah, when it is acting poorly.
If you watch the clear line on the return hose you will see these racing back to the mother ship of the fuel tank at times when you race it up. Do that a few times after you get it warmed up. Oh you don't have a clear line yet? For Shame.
I wonder if the tape is going to cause you to have to re-torque these after a bit?
ha its just alittle tape on the threads but yeah i didnt really consider the heat and what it might do to it.. but eh im sure itll be alright :P whats the worse that could happen? and okay so even if it does start up i just gotta run it for alittle while and it should get all the air out and then idle for me?
also im kind of condisering picking up this clean gas shell the engine doesnt run on it and i was wondering about like when i got to register it am i going to have ot do smog and all that stuff on it because its registerd as a gas car? and if the fuel tank is good on it can i use it and put diesel into it after i drain all the gas out of it? or do i have to buy a new fuel tank for the diesel
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http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_barresources/07_autorepair/engine_change_guidelines.html
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http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_barresources/07_autorepair/engine_change_guidelines.html
That's California. In the sane world you go to the licensing bureau or wherever you register your vehicle, notify them of the change, possibly pay a small paperwork fee, and that's it. If your area has some yearly emissions testing, the change in the registration will be noted and the vehicle will be tested as such. For a diesel, that usually means a simple exhaust-gas opacity test (ie. how visible the exhaust is, but analysed by a computer).
I used the tank from the gasser when I did my swap. I just cleaned it by washing it through a few times with diesel fuel. Mk1 filler necks are huge openings, so you won't have a problem filling with diesel nozzles. My fuel gauge reads a little less linearly, but that may have been my tweaking it accidentally when I re-installed it.
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http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_barresources/07_autorepair/engine_change_guidelines.html
That's California. In the sane world you go to the licensing bureau or wherever you register your vehicle, notify them of the change, possibly pay a small paperwork fee, and that's it. If your area has some yearly emissions testing, the change in the registration will be noted and the vehicle will be tested as such. For a diesel, that usually means a simple exhaust-gas opacity test (ie. how visible the exhaust is, but analysed by a computer).
I used the tank from the gasser when I did my swap. I just cleaned it by washing it through a few times with diesel fuel. Mk1 filler necks are huge openings, so you won't have a problem filling with diesel nozzles. My fuel gauge reads a little less linearly, but that may have been my tweaking it accidentally when I re-installed it.
good deal thanks man that makes me feel better about doing this swap then if i did pick up a gasser.
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Okay so heres a video of the engine running it wont idle is there still air in the system? could it be because the IP is not in time? i dont have the gauge to get it in time yet.
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/th_0CB29DBD-385C-4D41-91D9-F75ACF5429E5-18663-00000EE451A9B726.jpg) (http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/0CB29DBD-385C-4D41-91D9-F75ACF5429E5-18663-00000EE451A9B726.mp4)
tons of white smoke. and also when i went to turn off the motor i have the IP Stop Fuel Solenoid on a wire connected to the positive i unplugged it and the engine wouldnt turn off i then un did the negative and it still wouldnt turn off. ended up dieing after not giving it more fuel. what could that be from?
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Hard to pin it down until you are in the ballpark, timing with a gauge. The lever having no effect and the failure to stop is strange.
A clear line from the out-bolt will tell if air is still in the IP.
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Is there a spring in that solenoid or not? Seems to get fuel past it somehow. Got something stuck in there producing a gap?
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Is there a spring in that solenoid or not? Seems to get fuel past it somehow. Got something stuck in there producing a gap?
thats what i was kind of thinking i do have another IP im thinking about hooking it up and seeing how the stop fuel solenoid works on it compared to this one. maybe this solenoid is just open all the time like stuck does that happen?
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Oh, yeah it does. They wear a bit and maybe it is just hung up. Get a big wrench on it and pop it a good one to free it up. Check it with jumper wires across the battery when you go to put it back in. It should pull up and hold the plunger up until you take the voltage off it. Careful there is a spring inside the plunger that is supposed to push it closed at that time. So don't lose them small parts.
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My bigger Husky saw idles just like that ;D
Try 1 more spline on your throttle shaft in the apply throttle moves it further direction.
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okay so ive been moving the IP towards the engine and still white smoke and then back away from the engine and it seems to be less smoke but still kinda white blueish smoke also wont idle and the throttle lever still does nothing..
does that mean bad IP or i just need to get a guage and hook it up and just really time it.
I also have another IP i was thinking about hooking up and seeing if that changes anything.
on another note i put some clear tubing to one injector to another injector and it does seem fuel is flowing between them? what does this mean? i still have yet to get a clear tube from the return fuel but what if no fuel is returning ?
and also does the white smoke mean unburned diesel fuel?
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also would running automatic transmission fluid threw the IP instead of diesel maybe help clean up the IP ?
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yes...and then some..amsoil is good as well
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yes...and then some..amsoil is good as well
alright maybe ill try some :)
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If it smokes, what colour is it? lets get down to the basics here :).
The throttle does nothing? You are off on the throttle arm to throttle shaft orientation. Horrible blackberry picture, but this is where I find most are good.. Set your throttle splines to look like this, and then adjust everything else to make it run good.
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This kind of basics?
okay well heres the deal i bought the car for $500 the engine that was in it the block had a broken rod the go threw in 2 other spare 1.5L diesels one complete and the other was just a tranny and block so what i did was i took the head that was on the car orignially got all the valves and everything re done on that
Got exactly what redone?
Was it pressure tested?
check it for warpage just in case
Was valve clearance checked? make sure there is some clearance with the cam lobes pointed up.
check the one from the donor block for a big warp at the middle, or a crack to H2o.
Never presume that because a machine shop did work that it was done right.
and i took of the blocks that i cranked and it was free from binds and what not and i didnt do anything to the block except put on a new clutch kit and oil pan i
... i probably should of thought this wasnt right and stopped but i kept going and i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.. do you think maybe because they were hanging up they might of been torqued but it was not accurate reason for not having the compression?
clean it well, and measure stickup of all 4 pistons very carefully. if this block previously hydro locked in these 2 adjacent holes, the rods may be quite bent. all 4 should spec for the same head gasket thickness at the least.
What is the procedure you are currently using to tighten the head bolts?
IMO ring wear in 2 cyls is not the most likely thing.
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Absolutely, I wasn't about to read through 15 pages to figure that all out. All I see is in the last few comments an engine that still doesn't run, so basics are still needed.
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okay so ive been moving the IP towards the engine and still white smoke and then back away from the engine and it seems to be less smoke but still kinda white blueish smoke also wont idle and the throttle lever still does nothing..
does that mean bad IP or i just need to get a guage and hook it up and just really time it.
I also have another IP i was thinking about hooking up and seeing if that changes anything.
on another note i put some clear tubing to one injector to another injector and it does seem fuel is flowing between them? what does this mean? i still have yet to get a clear tube from the return fuel but what if no fuel is returning ?
and also does the white smoke mean unburned diesel fuel?
To answer your questions vw-tim,
White smoke does generally mean unburned diesel fuel. And you can have it over advanced and it will run like poo and smoke white at times.
I would go for the ATF for now. Fill it up by letting the car use it out of, and return to the quart container. Once you have red coming out the return line shut it off for several hours. Then start it up with the lines connected to their proper places. This is going to refill the pump with diesel and shove the ATF into the tank. Not a problem, but letting the ATF set a bit will help clean it inside. You can also get some diesel purge and hit the pump real hard with the cleaner but ATF may do the job for you.
Fuel moves from each injector to the Out banjo then to the fuel tank if it wasn't then you would notice a huge puddle under the car as well as the engine drenched in it. Consider that it moves about 3/4 of a liter in a minute in a half. Running the car for just five minutes pushes nearly a gallon of fuel around the loop. Tank to filter, to pump, to injectors and back to home. Having the clear tube between the last injector and the Out Banjo will tell you if there is air in the system. Move it from between what ever injectors you have it between now to the end of the line. If you are like some of us we have the two outside injectors coming together with a tee then into the Out banjo. Just a different way to route the excess fuel.
If you still have poor performance after all this it might be time to try that other pump. But don't expect it to fire off and be perfect. It takes some amount of tweaking for every pump to work best. Cleaning, new seals, soaking in cleaner, maybe all three will be necessary.
Good luck with it all.
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Having the clear tube between the last injector and the Out Banjo will tell you if there is air in the system.
There is normally air in the injector return lines ( and very little flow). A clear line from the out-bolt to the rigid tank return line will reveal if air is getting into the IP.
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Duh, How did I miss that one? I know better. Must have been the 6 hour drive home has me head rummy.
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6hrs in a mk1 will do that... even with earplugs. :-\
@ Tim:
While the IP is moving a lot of fuel, most of it is circulated back to the tank and a small portion is used by the injectors. The generous flow is how the IP stays cool. Even the injectors don't use all the fuel they get, a little bit is returned through the small lines.
Clear lines and a gauge are basics to troubleshooting. The gauge is a few bucks at Harbor Freight. The adaptor is not expensive and you can find DIY adaptor descriptions online.
Until a baseline is established, It will be hard to isolate some of these issues with the car.
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Timing is not absolutely crucial for basic running, it is only then even somewhat crucial for optimal performance/economy while driving.
You will find that it will run with the timing anywhere between like 0.80mm and easily as high as 1.20mm.
Do the ATF soak, regardless. Whatever you don't use put in to the fuel tank, no harm cleaning it too.
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This kind of basics?okay well heres the deal i bought the car for $500 the engine that was in it the block had a broken rod the go threw in 2 other spare 1.5L diesels one complete and the other was just a tranny and block so what i did was i took the head that was on the car orignially got all the valves and everything re done on that
Got exactly what redone? i believe the head was checked for warpage and cracks and the valves and shims were replaced everything was redone on the head that could be redone.
Was it pressure tested? i believe so its been a while i dont remember ha
check it for warpage just in case that was done.
Was valve clearance checked? make sure there is some clearance with the cam lobes pointed up. i have the correct shims in place.
check the one from the donor block for a big warp at the middle, or a crack to H2o.
Never presume that because a machine shop did work that it was done right.
the block i pulled the head off had a broken rod and i did check the block i didnt see any cracks to h20.
and i took of the blocks that i cranked and it was free from binds and what not and i didnt do anything to the block except put on a new clutch kit and oil pan i
... i probably should of thought this wasnt right and stopped but i kept going and i torqued them all to 36 or whatever the book says.. do you think maybe because they were hanging up they might of been torqued but it was not accurate reason for not having the compression?
clean it well, and measure stickup of all 4 pistons very carefully. if this block previously hydro locked in these 2 adjacent holes, the rods may be quite bent. all 4 should spec for the same head gasket thickness at the least.
What is the procedure you are currently using to tighten the head bolts? I have APR head studs and i got the head torqued down no problems
IMO ring wear in 2 cyls is not the most likely thing.
with all this i feel im past it though. im just looking at an issue of it not idling correctly.
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Timing is not absolutely crucial for basic running, it is only then even somewhat crucial for optimal performance/economy while driving.
You will find that it will run with the timing anywhere between like 0.80mm and easily as high as 1.20mm.
Do the ATF soak, regardless. Whatever you don't use put in to the fuel tank, no harm cleaning it too.
okay i can get it to run and stay running but its just very very rough and wont like settle to a nice idle and the throttle on the IP doesnt work. Ill definitly run ATF threw it all and see if that helps and i think im going to put on the other IP i have and just see if that makes any difference ill run ATF threw that as well.
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Thank you everyone for all your help! ill post back with what i figure out tomorrow
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also could there be an issuse with the IP like the throttle is just wide open? because today it seemed like the engine had the throttle wide open when the lever wasnt even touched? idk if that makes sense?
also can i just run the ATF like 100% threw the system while running? or do i have to mix it in with diesel fuel?
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Yeah, the IP might be wonky.
Running solely on ATF is fine. I sometimes keep a gallon in the trunk as backup fuel
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so i went ahead and put in the other IP i had and with the cold start switch on i got it to start up and idle with it off it turns off i guess i should get a gauge and get the ip all in time. anyway real happy to hear it idle.
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Okay so i picked up this dial gauge kit from ebay it looks all good but when i put it all together and go to put the dial gauge on it it doesn't fit in all the way without it already applying pressure onto the gauge making the needle spin.
what do i need to cut down to make this work how it should or is it working how it should?
here some pics of what I'm working with.
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/13E40BA7-69D6-4349-9631-4A1E2D5DA0C4-9191-00000728AD263C8E.jpg)
and also the rod that goes inside i know it had some threads on the end of it does that screw into somthing inside the Injector Pump?
im just trying to fully understand how its works.
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thats how its supposed to work, u push the gauge in and it tensions up, then u rotate the engine until the gauge stops moving, zero the gauge and then move it back to tdc and the amount of travel at tdc is your timing measurement, i forget which ways you rotate the engine becaus ei haven't done it for a while.
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take the nut off the bottom of the dial indicator...then screw the extension in. Hopefully you get it from there.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iMs5HyRtwgo/UNSxXgxsSOI/AAAAAAAAA4Y/EptSAAqrWVA/s800/IPgaugebBits.jpg)
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awesome thank you guys! i totally understand it now ha
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For example:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tIdFVwqv3F0/UNSzzWZrI6I/AAAAAAAAA4o/c3xqaW7R2-8/s800/IPgaugebBits-built.jpg)
The thumbscrew on the side allows you to pre-load the gauge and turn it to face you after the adapter is threaded into the IP.
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okay so i got the gauge all in and i put a pre load of 2mm on the gauge atleast thats what i thought i did its the smaller guage on the face anyway so i set it in at 2mm. and then i rotated the engine opposite way it normally turns. The gauge spins and then it stops so then i rotate the face of the gauge so that it reads 0. Then i cranked it back to the TDC but what puzzles me is the gauge doesnt move at all? what am i doing wrong? i can supply pictures if that helps as well
i was following this DIY i know the bentley says 2.5mm pre load then rotated then do a 1mm pre load and then rotate back to TDC but this thread says just leave it at 2mm?
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
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With the engine @ TDC, I would preload a minimum of 2.5mm. 3mm is also fine. (The preload ensures the gauge tip follows the plunger all the way back in its travel.)
Then turn the engine backward until the gauge stops moving. No need to preload any more, just adjust the face of the gauge to zero and turn the engine forward to TDC again.
The gauge should show some positive movement. Loosen the pump bolts just enough to turn the pump (if you haven't already), and turn the pump until the gauge reads the specified value.
If the gauge does not move when you turn the engine forward, or turn the IP, something is not normal.
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With the engine @ TDC, I would preload a minimum of 2.5mm. 3mm is also fine. (The preload ensures the gauge tip follows the plunger all the way back in its travel.)
Then turn the engine backward until the gauge stops moving. No need to preload any more, just adjust the face of the gauge to zero and turn the engine forward to TDC again.
The gauge should show some positive movement. Loosen the pump bolts just enough to turn the pump (if you haven't already), and turn the pump until the gauge reads the specified value.
If the gauge does not move when you turn the engine forward, or turn the IP, something is not normal.
okay thanks ill try that then! :)
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okay so heres where im at.
first id like to show everyone that i have the IP lined up with the Mark on the bracket and the sproket is lined up there as well.
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/64F35C41-8C56-4CAB-9EE1-7A25C96866D8-9191-00000780A1720D04.jpg)
and the fly wheel is TDC
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/77C74B21-1256-43AB-884A-A5E9FD458339-9191-00000780A89EF3B1.jpg)
okay so anyway i put on the adapter and then i set the gauge to about 2.5-3mm pre load ( I'm assuming that's what the little gauge is for ) with the smaller dial )
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/03E7E6B7-DD9D-4E4D-9776-63076CF5E456-9191-00000780AEB92462.jpg)
and then i turned the crank in the opposite direction as the engine normally turns and it changed the gauge to look like this
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/3A51DE94-7EA9-4D74-A120-E555264D8A00-9191-00000780B64B292A.jpg)
and so i turned the face of it to make it read " 0 "
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/7F2DA2BD-7584-4164-8141-0928DA9BC77A-9191-00000780BCB42324.jpg)
and then rotated the engine back to the TDC and nothing changed the gauge didnt even move. So i dont know what the deal is? Also i noticed once i took the gauge out there was alittle fuel on it and kind of leaking from the adapter is this normal?
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OK, not normal, lol. The gauge should go lower when you turn the engine backwards.
So, it could mean a few things:
- The crank is not at #1 TDC
- The IP pulley or key is whack
- The IP internals are whack (usually 180)
I would verify
#1 is at TDC (#1 cyl is closest to the IP)
IP pulley key is in place
IP pulley is rotated where the locking pin can be inserted (if there are two Pin holes in the pulley, verify the keyway is pointing toward the head.
Repeat gauge procedure.
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OK, not normal, lol. The gauge should go lower when you turn the engine backwards.
So, it could mean a few things:
- The crank is not at #1 TDC
- The IP pulley or key is whack
- The IP internals are whack (usually 180)
I would verify
#1 is at TDC (#1 cyl is closest to the IP)
IP pulley key is in place
IP pulley is rotated where the locking pin can be inserted (if there are two Pin holes in the pulley, verify the keyway is pointing toward the head.
Repeat gauge procedure.
okay ill check it all and then try again. Also what is the IP pulley key?
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IP pulley & shaft have a half-moon key in the slot to keep the pulley from turning on the shaft.
(http://hikerinmaine.smugmug.com/Cars/My-VWs/i-9g96t3J/0/M/smugshot_48475-M.jpg)
Note the small hole for the locking pin.
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oh yeah the key is in there. I dont understand thought the timing is on like ive had the engine idling when i have the cold start switch on.
so i guess what if all of that is good? what is keeping the load on the gauge then? or why isn't the gauge moving back down?
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- The IP internals are whack (usually 180)
could this be the issue? and if it was usually 180 wouldnt it not want to run at all and not idle with the cold start switch?
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They run crappy when 180 out, but they do run.
Here's the general idea:
When the engine reaches #1 TDC, The internal IP camplate pushes the plunger into the HP (high pressure) head (toward the driver' side). The exact amount of push is measured with the gauge.
So, if the engine is at TDC and turning backwards, the gauge reading should reduce as the plunger backs out of the HP head.
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I'd also check that the gauge is not binding, by gently pulling on the top of the pin (has the knurls).
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They run crappy when 180 out, but they do run.
Here's the general idea:
When the engine reaches #1 TDC, The internal IP camplate pushes the plunger into the HP (high pressure) head (toward the driver' side). The exact amount of push is measured with the gauge.
So, if the engine is at TDC and turning backwards, the gauge reading should reduce as the plunger backs out of the HP head.
okay so say im at TDC and i put the gauge in pre load it to 3mm. so as i rotate the engine backwards making the IP turn it should bring the gauge down to 2mm correct? and so in my case it increases it to like 4mm so that means that the pump could be off then? or 180?
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I'd also check that the gauge is not binding, by gently pulling on the top of the pin (has the knurls).
okay ill check that too i dont think its binding at all though
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AIUI, 180 would still show a drop. The camplate has a rise every 90... so it seems the plunger is starting in a valley, which is more like 45 (or its other three cousins).
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http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
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The springs in the IP tend to make it snap into a cam-valley when putting the belt on, so the locking pin is used to keep the pulley static when installing the belt.
If you can't line up the holes and lock the IP pulley when the crank is at #1 TDC, the belt will need to be slacked and the pulley turned to the locking position.
(http://vincewaldon.com/images/stories/how_to/timing/ip_locked.jpg)
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I rekon it should be explicitly stated to ensure the engine is being turned the proper direction; or the gauge will rise rather than fall.
The engine normally turns CW, if one views from the passenger fender.
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Having the pump internals 180* out will not show any issue during the gauge part of the timing procedure. You won't notice it until you attempt to run it ;) Impossible to be 90* out and have the pump go back together.
I think unfortunately here it is just a lack of the know-how.
Your pictures show that you do have everything lined up correctly. You can see his TDC mark, and the pump is in the center of its moving area. You can also see in the pump shot that the pulley is at TDC as well, by the small gash in the one rib.
You go from 2.29mm pre-load at TDC, and then rotate the engine Counter Clockwise to 4.74mm? Even if you went clockwise the gauge would only go up to a certain spot and then go back down, to the same lowest spot it would go to by turning counter clockwise.
You are probably just turning the pump the wrong way. Small things.
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The gauge is also likely binding - even if the engine is turned the wrong direction, the gauge should move when turning the engine back.
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Having the pump internals 180* out will not show any issue during the gauge part of the timing procedure. You won't notice it until you attempt to run it ;) Impossible to be 90* out and have the pump go back together.
I think unfortunately here it is just a lack of the know-how.
Your pictures show that you do have everything lined up correctly. You can see his TDC mark, and the pump is in the center of its moving area. You can also see in the pump shot that the pulley is at TDC as well, by the small gash in the one rib.
You go from 2.29mm pre-load at TDC, and then rotate the engine Counter Clockwise to 4.74mm? Even if you went clockwise the gauge would only go up to a certain spot and then go back down, to the same lowest spot it would go to by turning counter clockwise.
You are probably just turning the pump the wrong way. Small things.
ha okay ill turn it the other way and see what it does. Thanks man
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okay so update! i got it to work and i was turning it the correct way but i guess i had the thump screw to tight on the gauge and it was binding
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okay so update! i got it to work and i was turning it the correct way but i guess i had the thump screw to tight on the gauge and it was binding i loosened it up some with out the pre load to adjusted and it worked perfectly!
so based on what the bentley says between .43-.47mm i set it to 0.45mm. do you guys feel this is a correct location or have i just missed somthing here?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/8CF0E94F-8D47-42F0-BAB8-3D7E0F27D32E-13028-00000A2CEA0F862F.jpg)
I thought it was binding in some way.
So you set it at 45 mm not .45, the gauge reads in mm's And what engine is this again? My 81 diesel recommends about twice that. 89 mm all the way up to 1.15 mm if I care to go that high.
So I think you need to double it. Don't you have whitish smoke rolling out the back now? It is retarded badly for being a diesel. Bump it up, push that IP towards the engine!
That is what I would be doing with it.
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okay so update! i got it to work and i was turning it the correct way but i guess i had the thump screw to tight on the gauge and it was binding i loosened it up some with out the pre load to adjusted and it worked perfectly!
so based on what the bentley says between .43-.47mm i set it to 0.45mm. do you guys feel this is a correct location or have i just missed somthing here?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/8CF0E94F-8D47-42F0-BAB8-3D7E0F27D32E-13028-00000A2CEA0F862F.jpg)
I thought it was binding in some way.
So you set it at 45 mm not .45, the gauge reads in mm's And what engine is this again? My 81 diesel recommends about twice that. 89 mm all the way up to 1.15 mm if I care to go that high.
So I think you need to double it. Don't you have whitish smoke rolling out the back now? It is retarded badly for being a diesel. Bump it up, push that IP towards the engine!
That is what I would be doing with it.
yeah i feel stupid now haha im gonna delete that post and go set the engine to about 1mm then
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also i guess i should just ask the pump isnt a yellow dot what would you guys suggest i set the timing to i read 1 mm was a good spot or is it more of a set it at 1mm and then turn the engine on and see how it reacts and then adjust it more or less from there?
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okay so i got the IP timed at 99mm i figure this will be a good spot to start it up at and see how it runs. anyway now i have yet another question! this is a question about the crank pulley and the water pump pulley and alternator pulley how they should line up...
i dont know if you can see from the pick but the water pump pulley is pushed out more then the crank pulley shouldnt they line right up with one another or is this normal?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/35C8AB95-3BE1-4295-87AE-0D5B3FEFADFA-13028-00000A31BE8DE7A6.jpg)
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Sometimes there are shims behind the WP pulley that can be added/removed to line up with the crank pulley.
You might put in the alternator too and see which pulley(s) would be most convenient to shim.
Side note: Maybe the quotes in the above posts are knackered, but the gauge in the photo indicates 0.01mm/tick on the big dial. So there is no way to set 45.00mm... (0.45mm maybe) 3.045mm is shown in the photo, if the face was reset to 3.00mm at the rollback. Ensure that the thumbscrew is tight enough to not let the gauge slip (but still allows the stem to move freely), or the reading may be in error.
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Sometimes there are shims behind the WP pulley that can be added/removed to line up with the crank pulley.
You might put in the alternator too and see which pulley(s) would be most convenient to shim.
Side note: Maybe the quotes in the above posts are knackered, but the gauge in the photo indicates 0.01mm/tick on the big dial. So there is no way to set 45.00mm... (0.45mm maybe) 3.045mm is shown in the photo, if the face was reset to 3.00mm at the rollback. Ensure that the thumbscrew is tight enough to not let the gauge slip (but still allows the stem to move freely), or the reading may be in error.
okay ill put in the alternator and just go from there. also yeah i messed up on the reading but i got it all worked out correctly now :)
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Tyler is correct, I am out of it. Small graphic, turn head sideways to see CLEARLY shows two arrows and a distance that each mark makes. 0.01. So you actually did set it at .45mm to start and now at .99 mm.
Should I be listing this one in the Rookie mistakes link now or later????
Not a good day for numbers for me. Good that it isn't tax time.
DAS
I had to shim my alternator to make it align correctly with the crank pulley. I don't have the PS to worry about.
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Tyler is correct, I am out of it. Small graphic, turn head sideways to see CLEARLY shows two arrows and a distance that each mark makes. 0.01. So you actually did set it at .45mm to start and now at .99 mm.
Should I be listing this one in the Rookie mistakes link now or later????
Not a good day for numbers for me. Good that it isn't tax time.
DAS
I had to shim my alternator to make it align correctly with the crank pulley. I don't have the PS to worry about.
haha okay so i just wanna make sure me being at the .99mm is where i wanna be right? like between the .95mm-1.05mm is what ive kinda read on other threads that makes sense right? ha
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.99mm - 1.05mm is a good start. You can tweek after observing its operation while in service.
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.99mm - 1.05mm is a good start. You can tweek after observing its operation while in service.
sweet deal! and yeah thats what i sort of figured :)
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Adjust your timing belt tracking before dialing in the timing as you will need to remove the pump (sometimes more than once) to get the tracking right. Loosen the bolts that fasten the two bracket parts together and the ones behind the pump that bolt that bracket part to the block. DOWN with the sprocket end, UP with the fuel distributor makes it track closer to the engine. If it still isn't there, you need to loosen the bolts on the pulley end of the engine and lower the end that the pump attaches to.
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okay so i got the IP timed at 99mm i figure this will be a good spot to start it up at and see how it runs. anyway now i have yet another question! this is a question about the crank pulley and the water pump pulley and alternator pulley how they should line up...
i dont know if you can see from the pick but the water pump pulley is pushed out more then the crank pulley shouldnt they line right up with one another or is this normal?
(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af27/tbsox89/35C8AB95-3BE1-4295-87AE-0D5B3FEFADFA-13028-00000A31BE8DE7A6.jpg)
=my bet would be that the crank pulley is a 1.5D pulley, they have less offset.
i used a 1.5 pulley on my 1.6, and it needed a spacer..
but it also made for an underdrive setup as well..
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okay guys so i have the IP set at 1.05 and yet it doesnt like it it runs rough and there white smoke but when i put on the cold start it runs better so does that mean it needs to be a lot more advanced? like 1.20? doesnt that seem to much advanced? what do you guys think?
i was thinking about putting my dial guage back on and then once i have the set measurement of the IP push on the cold start to see what measurement its at with the cold start on and then set the IP to that measurement? what are your thoughts thank you
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you probably have an ok setting, a small bump of advance might do ok. Its supposed to run better with the cold start pulled, that is its function. ;)
Setting it so high, does away with the CS's function. I wouldn't worry about whatever number the gauge tells you, its pretty much completely irrelevant.
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you probably have an ok setting, a small bump of advance might do ok. Its supposed to run better with the cold start pulled, that is its function. ;)
Setting it so high, does away with the CS's function. I wouldn't worry about whatever number the gauge tells you, its pretty much completely irrelevant.
okay well im confused then shouldnt the engine be able to idle without the cold start switch on? without that extreme advancement? or does the engine really have to warm up a lot? im just trying to understand it.
to me it sounds like your saying i should have the cold start pulled all the time though? shouldnt the engine run good without the cold start pulled?
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im pretty much trying to figure out that sweet spot where the engine can idle and run great without the cold start pulled and it seems that i need to advance the IP greater then the setting of which the bently says to achieve it?
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I run on cold days with the CS out for a few miles. I usually am stopped by the same light all the time, doesn't seem to matter if traffic is there or not. My direction always is red. So I just come up to the light and easy the lever back, idle at that point is fine. So do you have to run with the lever out even when the engine is warmed up? That would not be right. Trying to set it up so it idles cold without the lever pulled may be too much once it warms.
That is my experience with these critters.
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so my 1.05mm could be a fine timing for the IP once it gets to its normal operating temperature? i might benefit alittle more with advacing the IP some because it could just be that the IP is a bit worn out. So in conclusion i can start the engine let it warm up with the CS on and turn the CS off once at operating temperature if the engine fails to keep a nice idle or begins to run rough at operating temperature i should advance the pump some more to fix it?
and the dial gauge becomes irrelevant because the IP is just probably worn out and thats why it cant be in spec? so i should even trip on that anymore. Just advance the IP where it can idle and drive good at operating temperature with the CS off? thats all i should really worry about correct?
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Bottom line is what you wrote in the bottom line. Because you already have it figured that the IP is worn and your starting just fine with the way it is right now. CS is meant to assist the start but not be necessary to run.
I'd say you are there! Leave it alone and drive the sucka.
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Bottom line is what you wrote in the bottom line. Because you already have it figured that the IP is worn and your starting just fine with the way it is right now. CS is meant to assist the start but not be necessary to run.
I'd say you are there! Leave it alone and drive the sucka.
right on man! thank you!
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so guys is there any place that sells the alternator brackets? i dont like the setup i was using.. and i just want to get the stock set up in there i think its the bracket that comes off near the valve cover and engine lift point its that like adjusting bracket i think and then there is a lower potion one that holds the altantor to the block.
also wanted to say that this rabbit is going to a new home and im starting up a new build thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32841.0