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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: vanbcguy on August 21, 2014, 10:48:23 pm

Title: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on August 21, 2014, 10:48:23 pm
I'm thinking I want to upgrade my oil cooler a bit...

When I'm on the I-5 I'm usually running along around 125 km/h or so.  When I've got a couple of bikes on the rack on a hot summer day I've been seeing oil temperatures around 115-117C at which point I start seeing the pressure drop off a bit - I'm measuring at the head which always reads low, but I'll see the pressure getting down as low as 1.3 bar at 2500 RPM.  Pull off and fuel up, the oil temps will be back to just over 100C and pressure will be more like 2.0 bar at 2500 RPM.

I really don't want to run an air cooler as I don't really want a bunch more oil lines to leak plus I've already got my AWIC taking up all the space in front of my radiator.  I've seen some folks with ALH engines run the larger Passat V6 coolers, but they don't have the filter on the bottom like the AHU and earlier engines do.  Has anyone upgraded to a larger oil/coolant heat exchanger?  Anyone know if the Passat V6 one will fit on an AHU / 1Z / AAZ / 1.6 without bumping the filter in to the front crossmember?
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: theman53 on August 22, 2014, 08:24:09 am
I used an air to air and have no issues. Only been using it for 50,000 miles or so, but no leaks or issues of any kind. Maybe adding an extra quart at rebuild oil change, but you have an extra quart to heat up. I run right at 180-215f depending on the load and day. Never seen it go over 220f yet. Just giving you the perspective of something that works even if you don't want to use it.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: CRSMP5 on August 22, 2014, 09:10:31 am
Well a bus oil filter off a 2.0 fits the housing... Its half as tall, but just as fat... Also... Proper v6 filter is too... Its short... We put diesel ones on though...

I agree on you oil temp... Once mine hits 100c it drops quiet fast... But same token, my coolent starts to spike up over 90c... And to keep pushing oil temp up raises coolent more...

So think about water temps... Add a 2nd sensor, a 2way toggle switch, use your oil temp gauge for both by flipping switch... See if you can load the cooling system down more first... I have 80c stats in my cars i see this on... The one with 72c stat a gasser, detonates by 100c

The water temp gauge will reflect the stat temp once up to temp... Normal load... You can see in the needle when it goes between open and closed... Ive found stock oil cooler to be abt 15c max then both increase the same...
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on August 22, 2014, 10:16:01 am
Well a bus oil filter off a 2.0 fits the housing... Its half as tall, but just as fat... Also... Proper v6 filter is too... Its short... We put diesel ones on though...

I agree on you oil temp... Once mine hits 100c it drops quiet fast... But same token, my coolent starts to spike up over 90c... And to keep pushing oil temp up raises coolent more...

So think about water temps... Add a 2nd sensor, a 2way toggle switch, use your oil temp gauge for both by flipping switch... See if you can load the cooling system down more first... I have 80c stats in my cars i see this on... The one with 72c stat a gasser, detonates by 100c

The water temp gauge will reflect the stat temp once up to temp... Normal load... You can see in the needle when it goes between open and closed... Ive found stock oil cooler to be abt 15c max then both increase the same...

I haven't had any issues around high water temps - really if anything mine are somewhat low.  My water temps usually hang out around 80C unless I'm stuck in traffic not moving, but then it will only go high enough to turn on the fan.  My cruising EGTs are usually under 300C even at 125 km/h though so I'm not really making that much heat.  So I'm actually seeing quite a high delta between my oil temps and water temps - like 35C+ difference.  I really don't have much under-hood heat at all - big AWIC, free flowing exhaust, upgraded cam - this engine is breathing pretty well and keeping things cool on the top side. 

Good idea on dual-purposing the oil temp gauge.  I have the aluminum head flange with the 3 coolant glowplugs in it on mine, I'm not using those GPs yet though.  I can install another temp probe in one of the GP holes pretty easily.  I am relying on my stock gauge right now which I believe to be fairly accurate but for the cost of a toggle switch and a sensor, might as well be double sure.

I used an air to air and have no issues. Only been using it for 50,000 miles or so, but no leaks or issues of any kind. Maybe adding an extra quart at rebuild oil change, but you have an extra quart to heat up. I run right at 180-215f depending on the load and day. Never seen it go over 220f yet. Just giving you the perspective of something that works even if you don't want to use it.

Did you keep the factory heat exchanger as well?  I'd imagine that would make for a pretty big stack between the filter housing and the filter, kind of the same problem as using the Passat heat exchanger...  If not then I'd need to cap off the hoses.  Yes, the extra quart of oil would definitely be a good thing - I'm not totally against the idea but there's something to be said for the factory setup in that it both aids heating up when cold while also keeping things cool on the top side.

Ideally I'm looking for oil temps right around 100C cruising.  If I'm in town and driving easy (keeping the RPMs low, not flooring the car constantly, etc) my oil temps are usually in the high 90C's which is fine.  It's just sustained high speed driving (or hauling my trailer) that causes them to get up there.

Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: CRSMP5 on August 22, 2014, 12:28:28 pm
Old non bubble block 1.6 with stock wp housings have perfect spot to tap n drill sensor.. So it reads lowest coolent point with stat open or close... Tdi housing and block lack room...

Bbobs i welded a nut to the metal coolent pipe...

I would not trust using gp hole... Unless sensor is far nuff in to flowpast the tip of sensor... It will not be accurate...

Been doing toggle switch idea for my whole driving life... Added it to my 1st car and all since... You must use a plain non light style switch... The bulb or led will make it not work right...


And yes its a tow or load issue at speed... Not normal condition issue.... But till you see the true #s you not seeing how it affects water
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on August 22, 2014, 01:40:05 pm
Old non bubble block 1.6 with stock wp housings have perfect spot to tap n drill sensor.. So it reads lowest coolent point with stat open or close... Tdi housing and block lack room...

Bbobs i welded a nut to the metal coolent pipe...

I would not trust using gp hole... Unless sensor is far nuff in to flowpast the tip of sensor... It will not be accurate...

Been doing toggle switch idea for my whole driving life... Added it to my 1st car and all since... You must use a plain non light style switch... The bulb or led will make it not work right...


And yes its a tow or load issue at speed... Not normal condition issue.... But till you see the true #s you not seeing how it affects water

This is the sensor I would be using:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_24&products_id=136

(http://www.auberins.com/images/P100A-NPTL.jpg)

No problem getting that in to the real flow.  It is 1/8 NPT instead of M10 but that'll thread in to the M10 GP hole in the flange just fine.

CRSMP5, you were saying you see the same sort of pressure drop on your gasser engines - do you have any idea what sort of pressures you were seeing?  See I don't really see 125 km/h in 30C temperatures as being an abnormal condition - that's basically just summer highway driving.  Yeah I had a couple of bikes on the back, but other than wind resistance that's not really anything more than 1 adult or 2 children in the back seat weight wise.  Combined total weight including the rack shouldn't have been more than 130-150 lbs.  The trailer is definitely a different story.

My factory dynamic oil pressure warning system is still functional (in fact it saved my 1.6TD a number of years ago when the IM shaft seal failed rather suddenly - a big chunk broke off of it).  I believe the high pressure switch closes at 1.8 bar so my 1.3 bar reading at the head is likely artificially low as the alarm would be going off otherwise.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: CRSMP5 on August 22, 2014, 03:18:45 pm
Lowest you want to see.... 18psi at 2000 rpm.... What old 1.6td... Gassers were 22psi and na diesel... But turbo dropped op enough for 18psi...

Since newer tdi is on same design... And hydro heads got bigger oil pumps... 18psi is min...

During my crazy move using kubvan to flat tow crap cross hills and mountains... Ive been running 20-50 as i still have oil use issue... Turbo #2 pumps oil... Got #3 but keep resisting as if ive popped 2... Need to upgrade... But when i popped #2 i did lift the head and the wrx did not win :)

So due to first popped turbo ive had oil pressure issue... 20-50 solved pressure issue... And for my oil temp, vs water temp, vs oil pressure... Has good knowledge of first hand experiances
Title: Re: Oil Cooler
Post by: GEE-BEE on August 22, 2014, 09:02:55 pm
McNally for me...


http://shop.mcnallyelectronics.com/product.sc;jsessionid=874DE7E7A16E1689193A193EC80A5FD7.m1plqscsfapp06?productId=7
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: theman53 on August 22, 2014, 10:37:35 pm
I didn't keep the stock cooler as I felt I didn't want to separate oil and coolant when it failed. You could make that a giant stack but I don't know if you would have room for it all.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: CRSMP5 on August 25, 2014, 09:53:19 am
Some numbers... 500 mile load of crap trip... Kubvan, 98 tdi jetta 5 speed... 20w50 oil... 70-80f temps...

Gauges... Vdo... Sensors stock vdo kinds...

Start up... Tach = 4000 rpm which is 71.5 mph via gps in 5th gear... 195 50 15 kuhmos... You will have to math out true rpm...

120 psi and under 50c on oil and water

70 psi 70c water and under that on coolent

50 psi 80c and 80c

32ish psi 90c and 80c on water... Egt 800f

Where things get spooky...

25psi, 95c 85c on water.... Egt 800f....

22psi... 100c 90c egt 1000f....

Say pulling load up hill with wind...

But i know 100% that i have a bering issue due to oil starvation and oil foaming...
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: rodpaslow on August 25, 2014, 12:09:10 pm
I don't have a stock oil cooler, aftermarket aluminum using a GTI oil mount that fits perfectly to a 1.6tD and has the temp control unit inside it.  When I'm really on boost heavy it will climb to 250°F (oil temp); about 210 water temp, but still around 30 psi oil pressure, but over 1100°F egt for long periods with a VNT 17.

I would be concerned if it were below that - that's also synthetic oil. 
22 psi might be regualar 20w50 oil? just curious.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on August 25, 2014, 06:34:34 pm
Some numbers... 500 mile load of crap trip... Kubvan, 98 tdi jetta 5 speed... 20w50 oil... 70-80f temps...

Gauges... Vdo... Sensors stock vdo kinds...

Start up... Tach = 4000 rpm which is 71.5 mph via gps in 5th gear... 195 50 15 kuhmos... You will have to math out true rpm...

120 psi and under 50c on oil and water

70 psi 70c water and under that on coolent

50 psi 80c and 80c

32ish psi 90c and 80c on water... Egt 800f

Where things get spooky...

25psi, 95c 85c on water.... Egt 800f....

22psi... 100c 90c egt 1000f....

Say pulling load up hill with wind...

But i know 100% that i have a bering issue due to oil starvation and oil foaming...

Hmm your numbers are almost spot on mine actually in terms of the pressure / oil temperature.  Your coolant temperatures are higher but you're also pushing a box through the air.  I'm running Rotella T 15w40, you're running 20w50.

The interesting thing is that my oil temperatures are getting a lot higher than yours.  Now here's the possible contributory cause... I bought my oil cooler from ECS Tuning.  It does have 'GERMANY' stamped on it but the brand is something I haven't really heard of.  ALL of the rest of the parts I got from ECS that weren't a major brand component have been simply crap.  Wanna bet the oil cooler isn't worth squat either?

Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: theman53 on August 25, 2014, 11:21:39 pm
I have a cheap cooler from summit with the thermostatic flap piece in it most say is junk. But I have a big 13"x7"x3/4" the 3/4" is the od of the tubes.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: Rock3tman on August 26, 2014, 01:50:37 am
I've got the water-to-oil cooler that's stock on the 3.6-3.2L Touareg, Audi Q7, 3.2 Audi TT, etc:  VW 038117021B, rotated 90 degrees CCW to clear the block.  I modded the front engine mount to clear the stock heater hardpipe on my Mk1 Jetta.

The cooler is on a mostly stock 1.6TD that has the Garrett T3 replaced with a VNT-15 with manual linkage vane control (boost and throttle position).   Oil temps are now within 10 degrees F of water temps,  after warmup- no matter how hard its run, but a Mk1 Jetta is light.  The oil temp is measured at the pan drain and water temp at the back of the head (stock).   Oil filter change is a B#%^ for clearance with the core support...I need to try the 2.0L bus filter!!
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on August 26, 2014, 11:17:14 am
I've got the water-to-oil cooler that's stock on the 3.6-3.2L Touareg, Audi Q7, 3.2 Audi TT, etc:  VW 038117021B, rotated 90 degrees CCW to clear the block.  I modded the front engine mount to clear the stock heater hardpipe on my Mk1 Jetta.

The cooler is on a mostly stock 1.6TD that has the Garrett T3 replaced with a VNT-15 with manual linkage vane control (boost and throttle position).   Oil temps are now within 10 degrees F of water temps,  after warmup- no matter how hard its run, but a Mk1 Jetta is light.  The oil temp is measured at the pan drain and water temp at the back of the head (stock).   Oil filter change is a B#%^ for clearance with the core support...I need to try the 2.0L bus filter!!

Yeah you've got the 'big daddy' cooler...

I've been thinking of replacing mine with one of these:

(http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/73014_x800.jpg)

Would be a bit of a tight fit.  P/N is 028 117 021E
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: Toby on September 02, 2014, 04:58:01 am

120 psi and under 50c on oil and water

But i know 100% that i have a bering (sic) issue due to oil starvation and oil foaming...

Yeah, but you may blow a filter off or eat the intermediate shaft gear at those pressures. Do you have the bypass plugged for some reason? If not it must be stuck. You should never see oil pressure that high. I wonder how much HP it eats to make that kind of pressure.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: rodpaslow on September 02, 2014, 05:00:11 pm
If you go to a bigger cooler, aren't you just asking for trouble with coolant temps?  I never liked the original vw cooler.  I can sit and idle my TDI to cool down after a long run and the coolant temps start climbing and oil temps drop somewhat.  My preference is to keep them separate if possible.

If you go to a big vw type cooler, your trading one for the other; and not really getting rid of any heat in the meantime - isn't that the cause?
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on September 02, 2014, 06:44:41 pm
Personally I have no issues keeping my coolant temperatures down.  The folks with more difficult vehicles (Vanagons, Kubvans) may not be so lucky but the basic idea behind the VW system is to use a single radiator for multiple systems rather than having a bunch of individual ones.  I don't see much in the way of coolant temperatures unless I'm stopped in traffic on a hot day.  I also have the biggest radiator that VW used in the Mk3 platform and no A/C, so others MMV...

In my case I have plenty of available cooling capacity in my cooling system and too much heat in my oil.  I've also got an engine that's known to have issues heating up at all quickly without its EGR system so the more heat I can get from the oil into the coolant the better.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: rodpaslow on September 03, 2014, 11:21:50 am
I'm surprised you have such high oil temps.  My tdi, I think it's a 1Z, could be ahu, runs pretty much right at 208°F oil temp (98°C) .  Stock setup with coolant temps at 184-187°F - running at highway speeds - 100 km or better.  this is with a stock setup. 
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: rodpaslow on September 03, 2014, 11:24:10 am
But, that is at stock injectors at the moment having problems with fueling....my egt at speed doesn't get over 920°F, no turbo spool as yet.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on September 04, 2014, 02:57:35 pm
I'm surprised you have such high oil temps.  My tdi, I think it's a 1Z, could be ahu, runs pretty much right at 208°F oil temp (98°C) .  Stock setup with coolant temps at 184-187°F - running at highway speeds - 100 km or better.  this is with a stock setup.

Yup - I'm surprised too, which is why I want to sort it out...

Around town yeah, I'm at about 98°C most of the time.  But sustained Interstate runs are a different story.

I think I've more or less decided that my oil cooler is junk.  As I mentioned earlier I realized that I bought it in a parts order from ECS Tuning when I first started getting bits (before I'd found ID Parts and various other better quality vendors).  Going back and looking at what I ordered I realized ECS doesn't even display a brand name for the cooler I got at all (though they do sell well-known brands as well).  Out of the parts I received in that order:

- The water pump bearing and seal failed at less than 500 km
- The serpentine belt tensioner pulley bearing failed at less than 500 km
- The oil dipstick funnel failed on installation

This is the oil cooler I got:

http://www.ecstuning.com/ES259454/

So I think I have two possible pathways:

- Replace the probably poor quality cooler I have with a name brand and see if it helps
or
- Go straight for an upgraded cooler

I'm about due for an oil change so it'd be a good time to make changes if I'm going to...
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on May 12, 2015, 12:39:39 pm
I know I'm bringing this back to life... ;)

So I still haven't changed anything with my oil cooler.  The highest oil temps I've seen have been around 120C, hot hot hot.  However for a CJ-4 oil like T6 that's still in its "happy" zone, though yes the pressure does start to drop quite a bit.

Reading through this thread again I realized one BIG reason why my oil temps are probably higher - I have ASV pistons.  They have a big oil chamber wrapped around the combustion chamber in the piston which gets filled by the sprayer jets.  The entire reason I'm using them is that they are more effective at keeping the piston cool at higher power levels.  Well, if you're cooling the piston more you must be heating the oil more, right?  Duh.

Still planning on upgrading the oil cooler to the 4motion one.  Just makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: rotaecho on April 19, 2016, 11:30:49 pm
I put the oil-cooler mentioned below on my AHU

1x 028117021E - oil cooler

1x 028115721B - union tube

1x 068115723 - hexagon nut; ADC,AAZ,ABA,; AHU,1Z


I've got the water-to-oil cooler that's stock on the 3.6-3.2L Touareg, Audi Q7, 3.2 Audi TT, etc:  VW 038117021B, rotated 90 degrees CCW to clear the block.  I modded the front engine mount to clear the stock heater hardpipe on my Mk1 Jetta.

The cooler is on a mostly stock 1.6TD that has the Garrett T3 replaced with a VNT-15 with manual linkage vane control (boost and throttle position).   Oil temps are now within 10 degrees F of water temps,  after warmup- no matter how hard its run, but a Mk1 Jetta is light.  The oil temp is measured at the pan drain and water temp at the back of the head (stock).   Oil filter change is a B#%^ for clearance with the core support...I need to try the 2.0L bus filter!!

Yeah you've got the 'big daddy' cooler...

I've been thinking of replacing mine with one of these:

(http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/73014_x800.jpg)

Would be a bit of a tight fit.  P/N is 028 117 021E
Title: Re: Oil Cooler Upgrades
Post by: vanbcguy on April 20, 2016, 12:30:50 am
Have any pictures? How did it fit?

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