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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rabbitman on June 16, 2009, 02:54:26 pm

Title: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 16, 2009, 02:54:26 pm
Ok most of you know I'm having a lack of boost situation, I'm rather new to turbo's and don't have another good one to compare so I need some of the experts to look at these pics and tell me if this looks good or bad.

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit104.jpg)

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit102.jpg)

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit109.jpg)

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit103.jpg)

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 16, 2009, 05:10:43 pm
Thanks Andrew, that's what I needed to see :'(

So I wonder why I got such a big gap?
My only guess is the PO mustuv burned, melted or broke some blades and filed 'em even so it wound't be noticeable. Or he swapped wheels with another one before selling it, I bought it on ebay but that was 2+ years ago, no way to trace it.

So what are my options? New wheels? Or is there a way to shim 'em out? I highly doubt it.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: blackdogvan on June 16, 2009, 05:46:01 pm
Looks fishy...
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 16, 2009, 10:56:44 pm
I don't have time right now to pull the turbo....and I'm tired of it >:(.

Is yours a GT1749VA?  Do you have calipers?  Can you measure your housings and fans and I'll tell you if it's the housing or the fan. 

Probably most cost effective would be to get a replacement turbo or center section.

Andrew

Andrew, I measured the exhaust housing, 1.44 inches, probly not nearly enough info. That number isn't on my turbo anywere, here's a pic of the tag on the compressor. When I get a chance in the next few days I'll pull it and get real measurments. To measure the fans I just need to measure the back plate diameter?

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit128.jpg)

Looks fishy...

I think it is......nothing looks worn or ground.....I'll figure it out sometime.

Thanks
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: OM617 on June 21, 2009, 06:08:47 am
That compressor is trashed and the turbine is either not right for the housing or worn down from housing contact. Either way, get that ting off your engine asap.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on June 24, 2009, 02:43:40 pm
lol, a good VNT should give you 30+ psi with really crappy fueling. mine is so worn i was getting 15 out of it with crappy fueling, then i build a good turbo pump and i get almost 30 out of it. so i imagine you could get over 40 psi out of one of these buggers.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 24, 2009, 03:49:22 pm
Yeah I'm just sick of messing with it. One problem is I don't know were to get another turbo that'll bolt to the euro manifold I've got and I don't want to get the one piece mani/housing that is more common because that would require that I make another DP >:(.

I think the PO "rebuilt" it, maybe a new bearing is all because as is the wheels can't hit the housing.

I'm driving it now I just don't "hot rod" at all....or very much. ::)

I looked on prothe's website which is the only place I've found new center cartridges for the vnt15. He's got different ones for the ALH and european AFN, mine is from an AFN.
So I wonder if the PO installed a center piece from an ALH vnt15? The price is $199 for the AFN and $249 for the ALH, sounds too cheap, perfect for my budget though :-[. Maybe I should try to get some measurements from him. Thanks
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 24, 2009, 04:15:45 pm
Does anyone know if the vnt shares parts with other turbos? From what I've found, I "think" a GT15 is like a vnt-15 minus the vanes ??? Most likely I'm wrong though. I just wondered if the fans from a GT15 would fit is all.

Or I could order it from prothe :-\.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 26, 2009, 07:34:20 pm
Well I emailed prothe and found out that the only difference between the ALH and AFN centers is the location of the vane lever, probably means I can't use an ALH center because then I'd need a new vane "control ring" so it would mesh with the lever. I'll measure mine soon hopefully so I know if a new cartridge would even fix it. MAN, I'm still tired of pulling it and it's been like two week since I've had it out :'(.
The dream of having some tolerable power keeps me going though ;D
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 26, 2009, 10:28:35 pm
It's tempting to just get a north American vnt but I spent WAY too much time getting the DP to fit, I figure that as different as they are I'd have to start over. I'll definitely let you know if I do decide to get rid of it.

I've noticed a sort of two tone turbo whistle coming from the turbo, as I push the pedal a really high pitch that quickly goes out of hearing range and then almost immediatly a lower pitch starts up and I can barely hear it at my full boost of 2psi.......yeah I know I should just fix it.....I keep wishing it would fix itself though ::)
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: jtanguay on June 26, 2009, 11:27:11 pm
thats a shame about the turbo... the noise you're hearing is the pressure leaking past the blades :(  the turbo is probably doing more harm than good the way it is.  i'd definitely hit prothe up for a center cartridge if you can confirm it will work.  people can talk trash about those turbo's all they want, but they do have quality control.  just make sure you don't go too crazy with boost and it should be fine.  even the expensive 'oem' turbo's can fail and destroy an engine, so i personally think its a toss up.

i wouldn't pay more than $400 to get your turbo up and running.  for that price you could get a real nice vnt20 off of a diesel jeep, and never worry about destroying the turbo (you'll destroy your engine first  ;D)
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit TD on June 27, 2009, 12:07:48 am
thats a shame about the turbo... the noise you're hearing is the pressure leaking past the blades :(  the turbo is probably doing more harm than good the way it is.  i'd definitely hit prothe up for a center cartridge if you can confirm it will work.  people can talk trash about those turbo's all they want, but they do have quality control.  just make sure you don't go too crazy with boost and it should be fine.  even the expensive 'oem' turbo's can fail and destroy an engine, so i personally think its a toss up.

i wouldn't pay more than $400 to get your turbo up and running.  for that price you could get a real nice vnt20 off of a diesel jeep, and never worry about destroying the turbo (you'll destroy your engine first  ;D)
I can't imagine where you all find these turbos all the time for those prices.  Around here the junkyards wouldn't consider selling a turbo off a good engine.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: jtanguay on June 27, 2009, 12:21:23 pm
thats a shame about the turbo... the noise you're hearing is the pressure leaking past the blades :(  the turbo is probably doing more harm than good the way it is.  i'd definitely hit prothe up for a center cartridge if you can confirm it will work.  people can talk trash about those turbo's all they want, but they do have quality control.  just make sure you don't go too crazy with boost and it should be fine.  even the expensive 'oem' turbo's can fail and destroy an engine, so i personally think its a toss up.

i wouldn't pay more than $400 to get your turbo up and running.  for that price you could get a real nice vnt20 off of a diesel jeep, and never worry about destroying the turbo (you'll destroy your engine first  ;D)
I can't imagine where you all find these turbos all the time for those prices.  Around here the junkyards wouldn't consider selling a turbo off a good engine.

ebay :)  those vnt20's come up once in a while.   ;)
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on June 27, 2009, 01:45:49 pm
LMFAO @ the 2psi boost. that turbo is trash. and i thought my seals and bearings were bad!
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 27, 2009, 04:16:21 pm
I'm ripping it off today and measuring stuff >:(

Quote
... the noise you're hearing is the pressure leaking past the blades :(  the turbo is probably doing more harm than good the way it is.
i wouldn't pay more than $400 to get your turbo up and running.  for that price you could get a real nice vnt20 off of a diesel jeep, and never worry about destroying the turbo (you'll destroy your engine first  ;D)

I didn't think that "whine" sounded right.

Yup, EGT's are higher just cruising and it's got less power then before.

I think I've got a little over $500 into it so far :o, after getting a new center piece I'll be up to 700 ::), it's spread out over 2 years so it's not too painful to think about.

VNT stuff is impossible to find up here in junkyards and there's never any swaps that I know of so I pretty much have to order from down south :(.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 27, 2009, 08:06:00 pm
Ok, I've got a bunch of pics and measurement for ya'lls amusement.

Don't go by the dial reading seen in the pics, I just held it there so you'd see were I measured.
Everything is in inches.

Turbine housing: 1.45"

Turbine wheel: big side, 1.677"
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit135.jpg)

As close to the tips as I could get: 1.282"
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit136.jpg)

Compressor housing: 1.315"
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit140.jpg)

Compressor wheel: Big side, 1.932"
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit138.jpg)

Tip: 1.236"
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit139.jpg)

By doing the math here the clearance between the turbine housing and fan: .084"

Compressor housing and fan clearance looks like: .0395".

The compressor blades all looked like somebody cleaned them with something too scratchy.

Both housings are very smooth and round.

Bearing is good and the oil I've been finding in the intake is also in the hose that goes filter to turbo so it must be from the breather rather than the turbo seals.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on June 27, 2009, 11:53:38 pm
wow, that thing is wasted. better go with a new center section.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: OM617 on June 28, 2009, 04:47:07 am
Yes, that thing is junked.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 28, 2009, 02:47:52 pm
 :'( Well at least now I know what will fix it ;D
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on June 29, 2009, 02:15:53 pm
I just measured a Euro VNT15 I have here and the housing measurements were the same as what you gave.  Your wheels are what is messed up.  Maybe someone can confirm that a US spec VNT15 is the same aside from the integral manifold.  If that is confirmed, then any decent VNT15 center section will cure your ills.



Thanks Andrew, that's what I was hoping was wrong.
I emailed prothe who sells both Euro and US vnt15 centers to find out what the difference is, here's his reply:

HI, the only difference is the location of the VNT actuator on the turbo cartridge housing.  Besides that they are identical.  The wastegate actuator has nuts to adjust it.  Have you tried adjusting them?  Pete

I hadn't yet told him this was on a rabbit. Anyways the lever is part of the center so I think I'll need a euro center or else the lever and the notch in the vane ring might not line up.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 02, 2009, 11:08:40 pm
Well I ordered a center from prothe......payed yesterday and got an email this morning saying it's in the mail ;D

I hope real bad that this'll fix it :P, I still have the non working one on the car and it is soooo gutless, cruising at 55-60mph gets me 650-900F EGTs. Top speed before I worry about the pistons is like 70 and not for very long >:(. The EGTs used to be 450F at 55-60, and it had lots more power.

I'll let ya'll know what happens....(duh) ::)
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 09, 2009, 08:46:49 pm
Here's what I bought: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=390061609253

I found in the ad where it says the part #, 128145702H so I "knew" it would fit.

Got it today and it looks pretty good, the wheels measure to what they should be, BUT......

It is not drilled for the alignment pins that the vane ring rides on, I could fix that, BUT......

In this picture of my old center, the blue diameter of the new one doesn't fit in the exhaust housing, the missing holes are circled in red.

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit136-1-1.jpg)

So I'm thinkin' I could either grind away on it 'till it fits in the housing and mess around drilling holes, OR I could put the shaft, fans and bearing into my center piece, doing any of this will probably void the one year warranty.

What do yall think?

I really...really want to get it working today.... ::).or last month.....
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 09, 2009, 09:11:59 pm
Grinding it or swapping over the shaft would likely void any warranty.

How far off is the plate?  Those turbos spin VERY fast.  I'd be reluctant to remove the shaft as you will need to upset the balance of the unit...

Well, I would for sure mark the wheels before removal so the balance wouldn't be affected.

EDIT, got some better numbers,  The plate diameters are:
Old: 4.135"
New: 4.182"
Exhaust housing: 4.139"

Prothe's pictures show the plate without the pin holes so I don't know what he was planning for people to do about it.

It looks like my options are: 1: send it back, 2: void the warranty, then grind the plate and drill pin holes, 3: Void it and use the new wheels in my old center.

Waddya think?
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 10, 2009, 01:43:22 pm
i would just send it back and get a NORMAL vnt15 turbo center section from prothe. then if it works, let me know, cause i might be following your route.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 10, 2009, 02:21:03 pm
That's a tough call as to what to do.  Drilling the holes for the pins shouldn't be difficult and certainly shouldn't void any warranty as they need to be there.  Any way to grid the exhaust housing larger instead of the center section?  That way if you ever need to replace the center section again in the future you wouldn't have to grind again.

Anyone have an integral manifold vnt-15 to measure?

I guess that's what I should've done is gring the housing and drill the holes, instead I swapped the internals over, fans, bearings and the compressor side plate so I could use the seal without disassembling the actual seal. The exhaust fan hit the housing just a bit so since the pins the center it go into the vane holder I had to move it some, the clearance is very small now both intake and exhaust.

i would just send it back and get a NORMAL vnt15 turbo center section from prothe. then if it works, let me know, cause i might be following your route.

A normal center won't work since the control lever in different locations, mine is on the side closest to the engine and normal ones are farthest from the engine.

Anyways I got it all put together and now I get maybe 4psi >:( I am getting so sick of messing with this, I almost wish I'd left it NA.

So now I wonder if I need to check exhaust mani pressure to see if it's too low, isn't a 1:1 ratio of intake/exhaust manifold pressure ideal?
So if I'm only getting 4psi exhaust then 4psi is all I'd get on the intake side......I don't have any exhaust leaks, I have some after the turbo and it's black everywere the smoke touches.

The only thing I can think of is I need to close the vanes partway ??? what else could it be? If air couldn't get to the turbo good enough would that cause a lack of boost? Like if my feed hose was kinking?

Feel free to input any ideas you got, I ran out long ago :'(.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 10, 2009, 02:34:12 pm
the turbo is not your problem, or your exhaust. you either have an epic boost leak, or your turbo is still way messed up. my turbo throws down lots of boost with the vanes wide open. or your valves may be adjusted way way too tight. or your fuel pump is turned down so far that it just simply cant operate the turbo. crank your fuel pump up till you adjust the idle with the max fuel screw. if you still cant get boost out of it, then there is something seriously wrong. oh yea, since you have a VNT, you could probably get 4psi exhaust pressure without a center section or turbine wheels in your turbo. i dont see how you get 4psi at wide ass open throttle. i get 4psi off idle. lol.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 10, 2009, 11:38:19 pm
What are you using from air cleaner to compressor inlet.  Pics?

It's a piece of airoduct, you can kinda see it in this pic,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit128.jpg)
Here's some more,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit142.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit143.jpg)

In this pic you can see other stuff, drain, thermocouple and stuff.....
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit144.jpg)

EDIT: Forgot some stuff. The airoduct is 2 1/8 dia silicone, it has wire wound inside it to prevent collapsing, I cut the wire out of it right where it connects to the turbo so it could neck down to the 1 11/16(?) turbo inlet.
The ugly tape around it is so it doesn't rub on anything and get a hole.

Does injection timing affect the turbo? Mine is slightly retarded, runs fine it just misses some on startup but clears up once it's ran for a minute.

My next plan was to put the TD intake mani on so I can use the controller, with this turbo the controller sticks above the turbo rather than straight down like the US spec VNTs, my gasser intake will interfere big time :(.

This is wearing me down........ :'(
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 12, 2009, 02:53:42 pm
Will it work to block off my turbo close to the outlet and put the boost gauge there to see if I'm somehow loosing flow/pressure? Thanks
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 12, 2009, 02:58:01 pm
no, it wont really work.
cause the turbo has nowhere for the boost to go, so it makes some boost, then surges until it can catch back up with its self. run a boost pipe from the turbo directly to the manifold. make it with hoses you know are good and have no holes in them. then run it again. you should have more than 4 psi.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: MouseGTD on July 12, 2009, 06:23:24 pm
i was only getting 4psi on my old gtd engine, it turned out that the actuator wasn't bolted to the turbo so the exhaust valve thing in the turbo housing (can't think what its called) was just blowing wide open. not sure if this could help you in any way but it might be worth looking into to see if there's any issues with this.


also my pump timing was out a fair bit on that engine and i still got 18 psi with it.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 13, 2009, 03:18:12 am
no, it wont really work.
cause the turbo has nowhere for the boost to go, so it makes some boost, then surges until it can catch back up with its self. run a boost pipe from the turbo directly to the manifold. make it with hoses you know are good and have no holes in them. then run it again. you should have more than 4 psi.

Yeah I'm thinkin' I should put the regular TD intake on and try it with shorter hose, I doubt shorter hose has anything to do with it though.

i was only getting 4psi on my old gtd engine, it turned out that the actuator wasn't bolted to the turbo so the exhaust valve thing in the turbo housing (can't think what its called) was just blowing wide open. not sure if this could help you in any way but it might be worth looking into to see if there's any issues with this.
also my pump timing was out a fair bit on that engine and i still got 18 psi with it.

Sounds like you had a regular wastegated turbo, I'm tryin' a vnt. According to everyone that's put one on a 1.6 it is supposed to make 15+ psi with the vanes wide opened.

BTW, at 4psi I think I can feel a slight increase in power, so slight I'm sure nobody else would notice it but it feels like after I floor it power comes on just a bit more......or my mind made it up out of desperation :(.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 13, 2009, 02:04:33 pm
no, it wont really work.
cause the turbo has nowhere for the boost to go, so it makes some boost, then surges until it can catch back up with its self. run a boost pipe from the turbo directly to the manifold. make it with hoses you know are good and have no holes in them. then run it again. you should have more than 4 psi.

Yeah I'm thinkin' I should put the regular TD intake on and try it with shorter hose, I doubt shorter hose has anything to do with it though.

if you already have a gasser intake manifold on there, leave it alone, just make sure the gaskets seal up really good. i had a teeny tiny boost leak at the head, right between the intake. last time i had my intake off, i put a super thin coating of black RVT on there and i gained power. pretty noticeable.

and as for boost, you should be able to make 15psi with the max fuel screw almost all the way out. my turbo is on its last half of a leg and it still makes 15 psi all the time. yours is not worn out. you should not be able to keep that thing from spooling nuts. when i first turbo'd my engine, i found out exactly how much boost one of these would take before they go *BOOM*. check EVERY GASKET in your turbo system. you have to have a MASSIVE leak somewhere. does your turbo spin super freely? i can blow on the compressor of mine and get it to spin.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 13, 2009, 03:38:31 pm
if you already have a gasser intake manifold on there, leave it alone, just make sure the gaskets seal up really good. i had a teeny tiny boost leak at the head, right between the intake. last time i had my intake off, i put a super thin coating of black RVT on there and i gained power. pretty noticeable.

and as for boost, you should be able to make 15psi with the max fuel screw almost all the way out. my turbo is on its last half of a leg and it still makes 15 psi all the time. yours is not worn out. you should not be able to keep that thing from spooling nuts. when i first turbo'd my engine, i found out exactly how much boost one of these would take before they go *BOOM*. check EVERY GASKET in your turbo system. you have to have a MASSIVE leak somewhere. does your turbo spin super freely? i can blow on the compressor of mine and get it to spin.

arrrrg! I have checked every gasket, plug, the hose. Yeah my turbo spins real easy though I've never blown in the compressor though.

My 3-4psi happens at about 3500rpm pedal to the metal and plenty of blackness, the egt's quickly get up to 1250F and then I let off, I can hear the turbo the whole time...very high pitch whistle.

I'll try some more stuff today and see what happens. Thanks
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 13, 2009, 03:48:44 pm
yea, you should be making damn near 30psi at that kind of RPM. and with black smoke too? you are loosing all your boost somewhere. thats the only posibility. take your boost hose off the turbo and put your hand over it and rev it up, it should blow your hand off pretty easy and at fairly low rpms.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 13, 2009, 04:35:42 pm
yea, you should be making damn near 30psi at that kind of RPM. and with black smoke too? you are loosing all your boost somewhere. thats the only posibility. take your boost hose off the turbo and put your hand over it and rev it up, it should blow your hand off pretty easy and at fairly low rpms.

Are you talking about vanes opened or closed?

I did put my hand over the turbo outlet when I first put the turbo on, I had the vanes opened and it hardly blew air at all.

With the vanes completely closed I can hit 12ish driving but it surges badly, I guess that's what it's called anyways were the boost gauge jumps up real fast? And it's gutless.

At idle vanes closed it'll make about 1psi, when I hit the gas it'll go up to 5psi @ about 3000rpm in neutral.


EDIT: I found a paper towel in the inlet to the airbox, mustuv been there from the PO. This is a gasser airbox so it has two inlets, one for heated air from the exhaust mani and the regular cold inlet. I had the little door set so air could come in from both (it wasn't heated though) the cold inlet is the one that was plugged, I unplugged it and it didn't help a thing >:(.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 13, 2009, 05:15:49 pm
make it so that you have nothing on the inlet of your turbo. like wide open so you can see your compressor. see if it will boost with the vanes wide open.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 16, 2009, 04:31:08 pm
UPDATE: I have the weirdest problems.  ???

I removed the intake hose from the turbo and left it hooked to the mani and ran it, with the vanes shut air puffs OUT of the hose :o If I hold my face a foot from the hose it'll actually blow my hair around. When I rev it the air goes the right way into the intake. The air is going in the hose though, if I plug it the engine will die.
BTW, the turbo blows hard with the vanes shut so I guess that part works.

With the vanes opened all is normal.

When I shut the vanes it hisses pretty loud, I assume it's the exhaust accelerating as it's shoved through the vanes ???

It appears when the vanes are shut the exhaust mani pressure goes up somehow puffing out the intake ??? ???

So I wonder if the increased EMP's are leaking through some exhaust valves and into the cylinder when the intake valve is opened before the piston is starting down from tdc on the intake stroke? That's the only thing I can think of. Hope that made sense :-\

The engine runs perfect, starts good and idles nice. Thanks for the help :)

EDIT: The vanes position don't make any difference in the amount of air coming out, when closed they make the intake louder though. ???
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 16, 2009, 08:00:42 pm
the vanes should make the idle turbo howl sound faster or slower. i would say you have something seriously wrong with your vane setup or something.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 16, 2009, 09:19:56 pm
the vanes should make the idle turbo howl sound faster or slower. i would say you have something seriously wrong with your vane setup or something.

What I meant was air comes OUT of the intake manifold when the engine's running and the hose isn't hooked up.
The vanes work correctly and the compressor outlet blows real good.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 16, 2009, 10:46:57 pm
Overall the air is going in, like if you could measure the airs movement in the hose it would be like 1 inch out 6 inches in. Like at the rare moment when no cylinder is intaking the air that's sitting in the hose waiting to get sucked in moves backwards out of the hose, then when an intake valve opens it goes the into the engine and when that valve shuts it moves out again......
I don't know if it makes any sense, it sounds so weird yet that's what it's doing.

Could somebody do me a huge favor and disconnect the compressor to intake mani hose and at idle see if the engine appears to puff air OUT the intake?.....Please? Then let me know I'm getting desperate...... :'( Thanks
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: theman53 on July 16, 2009, 11:48:45 pm
my N/A would do that until a certain RPM then it would suck like crazy. I noticed it one time reving the engine and my other hand was in front of the intake tube.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 17, 2009, 02:16:07 am
my N/A would do that until a certain RPM then it would suck like crazy. I noticed it one time reving the engine and my other hand was in front of the intake tube.

Thanks, that works I guess it doesn't need to be a TD to do that, I guess I'll start looking somewere else for my miserable problem. grrrr. I'm gonna do a better air leak check tomorrow I guess. Come to think of it, when boost hits it's max of 2-3 psi I hear a kind of whistle/hissing noise, but I couldn't tell if it's a super high pitch whine or a leak......
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 17, 2009, 12:16:29 pm
check your valve adjustment. there should be no "out" flow on the intake setup. when my valves were really out of adjustment it would do that. and if your valves are mis adjusted, then they wont be able to hold boost. do you have pics of your engine bay? i want to see how you have it set up, and maybe see why it doesnt work right. i have a feeling that your turbo works. and everything else works too, you just need to set it up to work together. are you sure you plugged up every port on the gasser intake off? put the TD intake back on there just to be sure its not the problem. even when i have a pretty big boost leak, i still get boost. only 10 psi or so, but thats better than your 4 psi. i actually had a boost leak ever since i put the intercooler on my car. i always thought i could hear one, but it still made boost. then one day i was messin with my intercooler pipe and i stuck my thumb through it. well, i fixed the hose, put it back on, and my car was a rocket again. god i love it when you shift 2nd gear and burn the tires off, and first gear is kinda useless now if you wanna get on it.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 17, 2009, 02:23:39 pm
Checking valve adjustment is on the todo list ;)

Here's a shot of the engine bay, the blue hose isn't connected to the turbo in the pic, the orange hose is the filtered air.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit114.jpg)

I'll do a good leak check today.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 18, 2009, 04:35:43 am
Well I did a very good leak test, first I plugged the compressor inlet, then I removed one of the brass plugs you can see in the above pic.
I used a pressure regulator and blew 10-15 psi's in where the plug was, there are no leaks. But since this was pressuring all of the the cylinders (depending on which valve(s) were opened) I had some leaking past the rings but it wasn't much.

I found this a while ago, http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/vwtdsae.shtml , here's the bit I was looking at:
Quote
The intake valve has a maximum valve lift of 8 mm. Intake opening is at 5 degrees aTDC and intake closing at 14 degrees aBDC where both timings are rated at 1 mm of camlift. The maximum valve lift of the exhaust valve is 9mm, with opening and closing at 27 degrees bBDC and ~ degrees bTDC respectively. Intake valve clearance is 0.2 to 0.3 mm, and exhaust valve clearance is 0.4 to 0.5 mm. All these geometrical dimensions are identical with that of the 4-cylinder naturally aspirated Diesel engine.


By looking at those numbers it seems there shouldn't be any valve overlap. Today I found that the exhaust valve isn't quite shut yet when the intake valve starts opening, so at the very beginning of each cylinder's intake stroke the air I was pumping in was escaping out the exhaust pipe.....sounds like valve overlap to me.

check your valve adjustment. there should be no "out" flow on the intake setup. when my valves were really out of adjustment it would do that. and if your valves are mis adjusted, then they wont be able to hold boost.

I checked valve clearance also, some were a couple thousandths tight so I loosened 'em, now they are all on the loose side.

BTW, my boost gauge read high, the pressure regulator had a rarely used liquid filled guage on it, when my boost gauge read 14 the regulator gauge said 11.5psi. So I'm really getting less boost than I think. ::)

Haven't tested it yet.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 18, 2009, 03:35:40 pm
I was just thinking last night, maybe the A/R of my turbo is different than a normal one.

I saw on prothe's website in a pic of a new vnt the intake A/R was .42, mine is .48, my exhaust A/R is .65....I know nothing of what those numbers mean. I do know it changes when the boost comes on, so I's thinkin' the boost will start out of the range I ever go. I have ran it floored up to about 4300rpm and still get nothing worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 18, 2009, 03:37:46 pm
14 sounds better. but its still sick.
you should be making enough boost to grenade that engine.
should have a head shaped dent above the engine from so much boost.
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 18, 2009, 03:39:30 pm
im pretty sure you need the right turbine ahd compressor housings to go with their respective wheels. could be wrong, but i always thought they were matched. i thought you couldnt run a .48 wheel in a .42 housing?
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: rabbitman on July 18, 2009, 04:21:49 pm
14 sounds better. but its still sick.
you should be making enough boost to grenade that engine.
should have a head shaped dent above the engine from so much boost.

Sorry I mustuv wrote it wrong. I meant the 14 is what I was pumping into the intake mani to check for leaks.

im pretty sure you need the right turbine ahd compressor housings to go with their respective wheels. could be wrong, but i always thought they were matched. i thought you couldnt run a .48 wheel in a .42 housing?

Not sure, I thought it had something to do with the shape/volume inside the housings, I hope somebody who knows about this pipes up. ;D
Title: Re: Is my turbine and compressor wheels too small?
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on July 19, 2009, 12:54:13 pm
well, thats good that your engine holds boost. at least you know your problem is turbo or intake related. too bad your rabbit wasnt better at compressing air.