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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: LabradorSteak on August 16, 2016, 02:29:29 pm

Title: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 16, 2016, 02:29:29 pm
First, I am so glad I found this site.  Thanks.

I have been reading a lot about mTDI set ups and still have a few questions that may be obvious but the answers have escaped me. 

Background...I have a lot of experience with jet boats and gas engines.  I understand EFI and have rebuilt engines.  I have had an ALH in a 99 bug that I worked on so I know the basic architecture and the basics of eTDI.  Some basic assumptions I have may be totally off base so feel free to get simple with me.

1.  do the injectors work like a gas injector where there is a gate that opens and closes or are they just a nozzle?  If they are just a nozzle why are they so expensive?  and if they are gated like a gas injector why does the injector pump meter and time injections?  and what tells them to open and close?

2.  Why not use a waste gate and BOV to control boost when using a VVT and discarding the computer?  then just leave the turbo at what ever level you want to or even a lever that allows you to adjust it for optimal performance at the current driving conditions.

3.  Am I missing something or are there more parts to the mTDI set up.  Right now all i can see as parts are the:
 
          a.  engine...consisting of block, head, pistons, valves, cam, manifolds, oil pump, etc...mechanical stuff to move the air in and exhaust out.
          b.  Turbo...either VVT or WG BOV controlled
          c.  Injector pump and plumbing to supply fuel
          d.  Mechanical water pump and cooling system.
          e.  Front of engine stuff turned by belts off the crank...waterpump, alternator and injector pump

All of these things are individual systems that don't talk to each other and the only connection is the timing belt and moving air.  No sensors tell one system to do something different because of another systems status.  Basically no sensors or wires of any kind any where other than the alternator, starter motor, and shutoff valve.

Is this correct?  I seriously feel like I am missing something.  The injector pump is a complicated mechanism but other than that...???

Thanks, Matt.

Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 16, 2016, 03:13:53 pm
1.  do the injectors work like a gas injector where there is a gate that opens and closes or are they just a nozzle?  If they are just a nozzle why are they so expensive?  and if they are gated like a gas injector why does the injector pump meter and time injections?  and what tells them to open and close?

Later PD and CR injectors are different, but the injectors fitted to TDI engines with the electronic VE injection pump are purely mechanical in operation.  The injector nozzle is very precisely machined.  It is basically an outer part that has a 'seat' and an inner needle/pintle.  The pintle lifts when fuel pressure pressing acting on it overcomes the spring tension that keeps it seated.  At that point, fuel sprays out.
 
Quote
2.  Why not use a waste gate and BOV to control boost when using a VVT and discarding the computer?  then just leave the turbo at what ever level you want to or even a lever that allows you to adjust it for optimal performance at the current driving conditions.

A BOV is not a turbo control mechanism.  It releases intake pressure which simply hurts engine efficiency.  BOVs are sometimes employed as an engine safety device, but never as a turbo control and never should be. 

In contrast, a wastegate operates on the exhaust side.  It opens a valve in the exhaust that allows exhaust gases to bypass the turbine.  Variable vane turbos (VVT) adjust vane position to control boost.  None of the exhaust gases ever bypass the turbine.  When the vanes close (direct the exhaust gases more perpendicular to the blades of the turbine), the speed of the turbine increases but they also restrict the exhaust flow and cause higher exhaust manifold pressures.  When the vanes are more closed, you get more boost, but you simultaneously hurt engine efficiency by increasing the restriction of exhaust flow.

There are basically two ways to use a wastegate to control a VVT and both are far from ideal.  One way is to make the vanes stationary at moderate position.  An external wastegate can then be used to bypass the turbine.  In that version, the VVT has been functionally turned into a wastegated turbo with the slight advantage of being able to adjust the fixed vane position to make the turbo 'larger' or 'smaller'.  The second way would be to affix the 'wastegate' actuator directly to the vane lever.  The vane position would be adjusted based on boost pressure and max boost would be regulated.  The downside to that control is that it will always default to closed vane position.  This hurts engine efficiency by causing excessive exhaust restriction at all times other than max boost. 

Quote
3.  Am I missing something or are there more parts to the mTDI set up.  Right now all i can see as parts are the:
 
          a.  engine...consisting of block, head, pistons, valves, cam, manifolds, oil pump, etc...mechanical stuff to move the air in and exhaust out.
          b.  Turbo...either VVT or WG BOV controlled
          c.  Injector pump and plumbing to supply fuel
          d.  Mechanical water pump and cooling system.
          e.  Front of engine stuff turned by belts off the crank...waterpump, alternator and injector pump

All of these things are individual systems that don't talk to each other and the only connection is the timing belt and moving air.  No sensors tell one system to do something different because of another systems status.  Basically no sensors or wires of any kind any where other than the alternator, starter motor, and shutoff valve.

Is this correct?  I seriously feel like I am missing something.  The injector pump is a complicated mechanism but other than that...???

That is correct.  The injection pump accomplishes all of the tasks of fuel injection and ignition timing. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 16, 2016, 04:35:21 pm
Thanks for the reply.

I plan on using an ALH and a 300tdi rover IP to make 200-250hp reliably.   Drivability is not an issue since driving a jet boat is like driving on a flat road in one gear.  It takes a set amount of hp to turn the jet pump at a certain speed regardless of the boats speed.  I am sure that there will be a reasonable learning curve but thats half the fun.

I know I have a lot more reading to do and will ask many more simple questions in the future.

Are there recipes for building these motors?  My experience is mostly with small block gen1 Chevys where if you put in cam A with Carb B and exhaust C you should make about X HP. 

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 16, 2016, 05:14:31 pm
If you are going to operate the engine at a steady rpm/power then there is no advantage to a VVT.  I would recommend using an appropriately sized wastegated turbo.  TDI club will have more info pertinent to higher power output builds.  Just a heads up... there's a fairly significant bias on that site against mTDI's. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 17, 2016, 11:09:22 pm
Alcaid on here can set you up with a good turbo. There's a good thread on TDIclub from about a year ago with a TDI boat power plant - I think it was a Mercury but I can't recall.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2016, 12:51:07 am
I have been reading on TDIclub and it seems that 170-200hp on an ALH is not very hard or expensive to do.  There is no consensus of how much a stock ALH will tolerate before detonating.  That is understandable due to the many conditions which engines run.  I think being able to consistently run at 100-150hp between 2000-3000rpm is what I will need.  A good way to look at what a boat motor does is like a truck towing uphill.  Every hp made is used...there is no coasting...if less hp is made then the boat/tow vehicle slows down.  The boat has a constant supply of cool/cold water to lower temperatures but running any engine at peak torque under full load is not a recipe for longevity.  So I am thinking that the further under the curve I can operate the less stress the motor should be under.

I don't have an engine yet.  I want to make sure that I am headed in the right direction first.  I had a friend who tried to TDI a samurai and ended up buying two engines before he got it right.  I don't want to head down the wrong road.  There will be enough of a learning curve to fight through and I don't want to make it harder by starting off wrongly. 

The engine I have been looking at is a lightly refreshed ALH (new bottom end bearings, new water pump, new 17/22 turbo)  There are good deals on low mileage PD engines but I understand these are not necessarily mTDI-able.  I have found lots of AAZs for a reasonable price.  So I am still searching.  If anyone has any contacts or leads I am interested. 

Thanks again for all of the help...Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 18, 2016, 01:25:49 am
If you are consistently pushing 150hp or more, I would use an ALH with upgraded rods, a wastegated turbo that is efficient at that power, water-to-air intercooler.  I would focus on max power at 3500 rather than 3000.  The advantage to the VNT turbos is off-the-line performance with good higher rpm efficiency.  It sounds like you don't need 'off-the-line' performance, so the added complication of a VNT would be a downside.  I'm a big fan of VNT turbos, but this doesn't sound like the right application for one. 

PD is not an option for mTDI.  You could use a 2.0L PD bottom end with the ALH head and run it as a 2.0L ALH.   
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2016, 11:01:56 am
I read about changing the head a little. Would the head just bolt on or would I have to machine the Pistons?  I'm not that excited about starting from a bare block but just changing a head would be simple.

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 18, 2016, 12:56:40 pm
I haven't done an ALH head on the 2.0L bottom end myself.  I read a thread on TDI club where someone else did, but that was a while back and I don't recall the details.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2016, 03:56:58 pm
I copied this from tdiclub so a brm block would work but my first choice would still be a decent Alh.

"the BEW pistons are a nogo unless you machine them for valve reliefs... the brm "could" work but the cps is pulled from the rear seal assembly and not from a crank mounted reluctor wheel as in previous PD's ... and it's signal may not be compatible at all with the edc15 hardware ... talk to your tuner on that one... now if you're going all mechanical then the BRM block would work fine, just slap an ALH head on it with the correct gasket and go"

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2016, 08:44:25 pm
After many more hours of reading I think just going with a straight Alh or Ahu is the best way to go. They have fewer places for me to make mistakes...I want to keep this as simple and enjoyable as possible.

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 19, 2016, 12:08:47 am
The ALH is a stronger/better block design and has stronger stock rods.  The AHU is a good choice for earlier year inline-4 VW's because it shares the block mounting points and mounts right up, but considering the custom installation in a boat, I'd choose an ALH. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 19, 2016, 11:54:31 pm
How important is mileage?  One engine I'm looking at has 73k and one has 280k. Both run and have what I need for parts. The 73k is more money by about $1000.  But I keep hearing how long these things run and 280 isn't too bad.

How much is involved in rebuilding the short block. If it's just crank shaft bearings and rings I can do that easily. But I would rather not...

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 24, 2016, 01:13:55 am
Hope this isn't too simple of a question but Are nozzles and injectors the same thing?

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 24, 2016, 01:46:36 pm
The nozzle is the tip of the injector and normally the only wear item that is part of the injector.  There are other component parts to the injector e.g body, springs, etc...  Some people use the terms nozzle/injector interchangeably, but it is not correct and leads to confusion. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 24, 2016, 05:01:46 pm
Thanks for all of the answers so far.

1.  I am planning on increasing fuel flow so do I just buy injectors with the correct nozzle or can I buy nozzles and install them my self?

2. Is a fuel/lift pump to move the fuel from the tank to the injection pump necessary?  Or is it another way to get more fuel into the engine faster?

Also, as an update I found an ALH that I am going to pick up this weekend and have a LR 300 pump on the way.  I have a large water to air intercooler that I am going to try to incorporate and hopefully will be doing some assembly in the next week or two. 

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on August 24, 2016, 05:50:15 pm
You can buy the nozzles and have them installed in your current injectors, but for the TDI injectors, that is best done by a shop that has the proper equipment to test them.

Lift pump is not necessary.  It can provide extra fuel under some conditions. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 25, 2016, 01:15:06 am
Lift pump is super helpful for filter changes, but as Libby mentioned unnecessary unless your fuel tank is going to be very far and substantially lower than your injection pump. If you do install one make sure you can draw fuel through it when it is not operating - there's some Facet Posi-Flow pumps available that fit the bill.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on August 25, 2016, 06:58:42 pm
Hi, if you want I found some infos when I was searching for, trying to find the best way to handle torque with an old ahu block.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=297234 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=297234)

So can you link where you find that BEW pistons won't fit in earlier TDI?

I thought with this link that all 2.tdi pistons will fit.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 28, 2016, 01:28:50 am
i am a little confused about what you are asking.  I will look for the threads that I found about which heads will fit on which blocks with or without machining.  I wasn't saying anything about pistons just which heads and blocks were compatible. 

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on August 29, 2016, 07:14:44 pm
My bad, didn't understand that way! But for me, all 8v hads fits all 8v block (I talk with 2nd gen head design) so for me an alh head will fit on all 8v block since alh ones.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 31, 2016, 01:21:55 am
I found this thread at TDIclub

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=352388

there are a few others that say the same thing.  The heads will bolt on but the pistons may need to be swapped or machined for valve clearance.  I really know very little about this and haven't seen them with my own eyes yet.  I have only read about it.

The other issue seems to be that the idler pulley hole is in a different place and needs to be added. 

Does this help?

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 02, 2016, 01:09:49 am
Does anyone know of a link or a "how to" that describes the way to set up and time a mTDI 300LR pump on a 2003 ALH?  It needs to be simple enough for a chimpanzee like me to follow.  I have been reading a lot and I finally bought an engine.  The pump is supposedly in the mail and I will have everything to assemble my motor soon.  Removing the engine will take a few weeks (I do have a family and a full time job).  The one area where I feel I am lacking is how to set up and time the pump.  I have read about what is necessary to physically mount the pump and numbers associated with timing the pump but I haven't found anything listing exactly how to make it run or where to measure the 1.46mm.  I assume it is out there but I just haven't found it. 

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on September 02, 2016, 03:23:16 am
It's pretty straight forward...

- Use the delivery valves from a VW pump (there's a few small parts that will come out when removing them, just make sure everything goes back in the same order)
- Use the ALH timing sprocket and hub
- Time the Land Rover pump to 1.45mm (same procedure as if you were doing a 1.6 or AAZ, there's plenty of guides on here)

That's it!
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on September 04, 2016, 09:32:55 am
Why do you advise using vw delivery valves? The one of Landy don't fit the vw fuel lines or is it other?

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on September 04, 2016, 03:00:00 pm
Exactly. The VW ones are much shorter. You may be able to bend the fuel lines to fit, I gave it a shot on mine but I didn't feel like it was going to work and used the VW ones in the end.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 09, 2016, 12:43:02 am
I bought a totaled 2003 pasat with 195xxx miles for $600 and am in the process of removing the engine.  I haven't decided/beentold what to do as far as injectors and turbo go.  I am able to fabricate well enough to make a manifold and I have no restrictions regarding space so the options are limitless.  I understand the basics of how to choose a turbo but not the specifics of the turbo maps etc...  i have emailed/PM'd a couple of people and not received a response.  I assume that this is because they receive a lot of emails that end up going nowhere. 

From what I understand R520 injectors are quite large and seem to fit the hp range that I am looking for but finding an non variable turbo that will deliver enough air so the egt's do go too high and still spool up by 2000 or so rpm is beyond what I have been able to figure out.  Also, cheaper is better.  So if anyone has any suggestions for me I would love to hear.

My goals are as much power as possible on a stock block using a LR 300 TDI pump and just changing the injectors and turbo and adding a water to air intercooler.  When I say "as much power" I mean sustainable power under load.

My dream would be to make 240hp by 4000rpm and be able to run it using consistently using about 150hp at 3000rpm.  I really don't know if this is possible but I believe it should be...

any ideas are welcome. 

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on September 09, 2016, 04:04:21 am
Hum, a k24 turbo would do the job, but his safe limit is 190-200hp. It begin to spool at 2500 rpm.
If you want to spool earlier I advise you to go with turbo compound, as you say you are not limited with space. In this case you can search for k14 or k16 for the small turbo and k24 or k26 for the big one.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on September 09, 2016, 02:44:55 pm
I'd use a newer turbo personally. The K24 and related are very very old designs. They're not particularly efficient.

If you have fabrication skills I'd be looking towards one of the Holset turbos that Alcaid is selling (search Alcaid Holset on here and you'll find some threads)

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 09, 2016, 02:54:19 pm
Alcaid is one of the people I tried to contact. I will try again.

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on September 09, 2016, 07:44:37 pm
I know, k24 are old, less efficient than newer turbos, but still work good and are very very cheap!

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 15, 2016, 12:35:23 am
I pulled the engine with out much fuss and separated the transmission.  Unfortunately when I was removing the flywheel I stripped one of the bolt heads.  I have never done that before.  Now I get the pleasure of trying to drill the head off of the hardened steel bolt.  My drill bits are not really up to the task but I don't know of any special tricks so I guess I get to slowly wear away at the bolt and will hopefully be done sometime this weekend ::)

Also I still haven't heard from anyone i emailed or pm'ed about turbos.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 15, 2016, 12:42:40 am
I forgot to say WOW...I got my first look at the stock turbo and was surprised at how small they are.  I don't know what I expected but it looks like a toy.

As far as a new turbo What about something like this. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWISTED-MOTION-GT3582-QUICK-SPOOL-TURBO-AR-63-HOUSING-K-SERIES-K20-K24-V2-/331915698866?hash=item4d47b7a2b2:g:YioAAOSw~gRVzQ0Q&vxp=mtr

It has a t3 flange which is quite common I think so I will have a reasonable amount of choice if I want to change.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on September 16, 2016, 09:39:01 pm
Any time I strip the head of bolt I resort to getting into the 1/4 inch sharp steel chisel.  You get one good tap on one of the six corners and try to drive the bolt loose with a sharp rap.  Kind of like you are turning it with the chisel.  On the tanget to the curve of the bolt. 

Sometimes I get a deeper groove in the bolt first by hammering directly perpendicular to the head of the bolt.  Chisel pointing at the bolt center.  Once I get a notch made I turn the chisel 90 degrees set it in the notch and give a sharp rap with the hammer.

Seems to work most times. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 18, 2016, 01:08:16 am
Unfortunately these are recessed Torx head bolts.  I will look to see if I can get a chisel in there but I am not hopeful.  I think I will have to end up drilling it out and I don't think it will be too bad.  I do have a die grinder but I don't know if it is worth trying.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on September 18, 2016, 01:28:00 am
Any one you know have a set of reverse ground drills?  Once you get some of the head off they come out at times like when you use an easy out. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 21, 2016, 12:01:58 pm
I haven't had much time to mess with the stripped bolt but I will get it...I always do. 

I haven't had much luck over at TDIClub either.  People there seem to feel safe telling you what not to do or what you are doing wrong but no one wants to tell you what to do or what might work.  Probably because they don't want to be told what they said wrong. 

What I have found that I think will work is r520 7hole nozzles and a k20/24 hybrid turbo.  I have looked and emailed and pm'ed searching for more turbo info but either no one knows or they are all keeping any information secret.

I don't know how much power it will make but it seems big enough to make more than stock power with out smoking and should be able to keep the egt's down.  Does anyone have any idea what I could expect with this setup?

Thanks, Matt.

ps...feel free to tell me what I am missing or what is wrong with my idea.  That is why I am here...but also throw out an alternate idea if you have one.



Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on October 05, 2016, 03:51:29 am
Hi, k24 turbo is what I told you before. I advise you not to go for hybrid versio, even if you'll use it in a boat with constant rpm. K24 is able to hold 25 to 30psi in Peak, and that will produce about 200hp.
As said, k24 is an old turbo, not as efficient than newer, but it's a cheap big turbo, depend of how much money you want to spend.
I love my k24 for its reliability and power it produce, but later I wanna go for a faster spooling one and why not turbo compound.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on October 06, 2016, 04:30:53 am
I see "GT3582" in that eBay URL above. For reference most folks who are making 200ish HP on TDIs are using something more like a GTB1756. The first two digits (35mm or 17mm) are the size of the turbine. The second two numbers (82mm or 56mm) are the size of the turbine. If that hybrid turbo is anywhere close to a 3582 then it is way, way, way, waaaaayyyyyyy too big for a VW diesel, probably even too big for a V6 TDI.

A regular K24 off of a 1.6TD would work pretty well; as mentioned it isn't the most efficient thing in the world but they're readily available and cheap. The K24 "frame" like most turbos comes in quite a few different combinations; if it isn't a VW TD K24 then it probably won't work well on a VW diesel. In other words not all "K24" turbos are the same.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on November 17, 2016, 04:57:25 pm
Where are you in your project?

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on January 03, 2017, 02:16:51 pm
Sorry for the long delay.  I have been working on the hull and not even looking at the engine.  I will upload some pictures so you can see what I have been doing and to show that I have not dropped the project.  I am hoping to be working on the engine in the next couple of months.  I do need to start buying parts like a turbo and some bigger injectors so if anyone has any used pieces that they want to get rid of let me know as I am on a budget (of course)

matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on January 03, 2017, 02:43:42 pm
I am having a hard time with my photo app right now so I hope these work

(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff505/Tuco21/Boat%20Stuff/a4c56cfea1b31e57382c9638fafa4e19.jpg)

(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff505/Tuco21/Boat%20Stuff/bbf394a419dcbb7311cef1e97689d200.jpg)

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on February 17, 2017, 02:31:10 pm
I am finally getting back to the engine. I am going to change the timing belt with a kerma 100k belt kit. Do I need the timing belt tools they sell?  Do I need anything else like the cam lock plate?

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on February 17, 2017, 02:33:50 pm
Also, I still haven't been able to get in contact with Alcaid. He emailed me once but hasn't responded again. Who else should I got to for a turbo or which eBay turbo would work.

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on February 22, 2017, 06:44:46 pm
Hi Matt!

Nice job with the hull!
Better wait for Alcaid answer, normally he is fast if you seem to be a good buyer!

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on February 24, 2017, 10:37:55 pm
I ended up buying a gt2052.  It was recommended by a couple of people and seems to fit my requirements.  I hope it works but now I need to find some injectors.  I don't want smoke at all.  Where I boat if i was blowing black smoke across the river it would cause a bad reaction from other river users.  If anyone has any larger injectors for sale let me know.

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on March 02, 2017, 04:20:30 pm
The injection pump I have is  marked

ERR 6700
0 460 414 136
Where can I find more information about this pump?
Rebuild kit etc.

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on March 02, 2017, 08:27:56 pm
The GT2052 should work fine. Even with bigger injectors you can keep the smoke levels quite reasonable by avoiding slamming the accelerator all the way open, ease in to it a bit instead so the turbo has time to spool up.

As to your pump, the ER6700 is the Land Rover part number. The 0 460 414 136 is the Bosch part number, that's the one you'll need to get a seal kit.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on March 11, 2017, 05:22:29 pm
I am looking for a good place to send my injection pump to get rebuilt or just gone through. Does anyone have any suggestions?  I dont know that proximity makes a difference but I am in moab, Utah.

Pm me or reply here. Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: theman53 on March 13, 2017, 10:22:21 am
Dieselmaken ab...
the guy that jetmug sent his stuff for the land speed record, I think his name is Gorren
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vic003 on March 29, 2017, 07:04:34 pm
I want to say try to rebuild it yourself as it is the goal of this forum.
If you are methodic it will be easy, it just depends if you just want to change seals or if you want pump tune too to fit your engine.

For black smoke, you can get  large amount of power without smoke using a custom lda (boost pin). For exemple, on my setup, no smoke at all off boost, and little amount of smoke on boost with 1.8 bars (approx 25-26 psi) wich is the boost limit of your new turbo.

Envoyé de mon PLK-L01 en utilisant Tapatalk

Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 04, 2017, 12:49:56 am
I am finally working on the engine.  I welded up an exhaust manifold adapter so I can fit a water cooled exhaust from a bbc to the engine and I made an adapter for a turbo to the exhaust.  I steam cleaned the engine and mounted the rover injection pump. 

Right now i am trying to figure out how to find out how you determine when the pump is fueling the #1 injector.  Then I will set it to 1.45mm  I can't remember but i do remember finding the info on here.  I just have to look. 

I will post some pictures when I figure out how to again.  (I was using photo bucket)

If anyone has a simple way to find when the pump is firing the #1 injector let me know or point me to the article which shows me.

thanks,  Matt. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 04, 2017, 11:14:22 am
The keyway on the IP shaft points to the port that will fire next.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 04, 2017, 12:50:14 pm
Awesome, thanks.   I knew there was a simple way to tell.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 06, 2017, 12:46:03 am
Is it possible to run a tachometer off of the wires from the 3rd injector?

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 06, 2017, 02:19:37 am
Is it possible to run a tachometer off of the wires from the 3rd injector?

Matt
Anything is "possible"... It'll definitely generate a signal that should correlate with RPM. It's an inductive cool with the injector needle essentially bouncing inside of it. You will probably need some sort of signal converter to be able to spit out a signal that can be used by a tach.

I'm doing something like that using the crank position sensor on my AHU. It fires off 4 pulses per revolution and is likewise a magnetic inductive pickup which won't generate a signal that can be used by an actual tachometer.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 06, 2017, 09:55:25 pm
Thanks again...I am wondering if I should start a new thread for each of these simple, unrelated questions. It might be easier for others to look up.  If I should then let me know and I will.

I am trying to remove the hard coolant pipe from under the injection pump.  Is there a trick or do I just pull once all of the bolts are removed?

Matt.

Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 06, 2017, 10:01:00 pm
Eh, we aren't that picky. The topic is "MTDI in a boat" and this is all super relevant!

Coolant pipe is usually attached with two tabs. Depending on your exact model there will be various other things clipped to it - VW used it and it's studs as a general mounting place for wire harnesses and the like.

Usual stuff applies for trying to get an old rubber hose off of a steel pipe... It's gonna stick and be a PITA, if it comes off easy consider yourself to be having a good day. Depending on why you're pulling it I'd consider what other rubber in the region looked nasty and do it too.


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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 07, 2017, 01:25:46 am
I was planning on removing the coolant pipe because it was interfering with my turbo placement and I don't need the end that goes to the heater core and the egr.  I ended up cutting it off in place and welding the end shut.

My next issue is finding a flywheel that will accept something like this where my drive line can be mounted to the flywheel.  I have a dual mass flywheel that doesn't seem like it will work so I was going to look for a single mass/solid one that I could have a machinist drill the holes in for me.
(http://i.imgur.com/6s9EXed.png?1)

That is not a picture of my engine.  It is just one I found to illustrate what I am looking for.

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 07, 2017, 01:35:36 am
This is my engine so far.

(http://i.imgur.com/J3apvUy.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/xMbk751.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/e8JYQIK.jpg?1)
Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 07, 2017, 09:51:53 am
Would this work for me?  It says it is a sbc flywheel 14# g60.  For an 02j 5speed.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=477531&highlight=Flywheel

http://imgur.com/a/G3hFl

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 07, 2017, 03:34:18 pm
I believe so yes, though I'd go for the heaviest flywheel you can find. SBC make some 21lb ones. A stock AHU car came with a 21lb single mass flywheel.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on July 07, 2017, 08:37:38 pm
The engine you are building makes that Johnson 8 hp one look pretty feeble.  I would use it for that slow speed fishing on a river somewhere though. 

And the exhaust looks too good to hide.  Would you be up for putting on a regular turbo manifold on that beast?  Cleaner look. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 07, 2017, 09:24:04 pm
The manifold is water jacketed so it will keep the temperature down in the engine compartment.  Boats don't get great airflow around the engine like a car does so water jacketing as much as possible is important.  Wait until I weld a little water jacket on the turbo...People will be screaming about losing thermal efficiency.  Unfortunately it is necessary or things start to melt...

I haven't run the johnson in years.  It came with a boat as a backup engine but could hardly push it...Better than just floating dead in the water but not much.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 08, 2017, 12:34:12 am
I need some help identifying what this hose coming from the back of the head is for. 
I don't remember what the hose was connected to and don't see a purpose for it.  Can i just plug it up and be done?

(http://i.imgur.com/AzAq8iI.jpg?3)

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 08, 2017, 05:22:33 pm
Don't believe there was a hose there factory. I believe there's a freeze plug there normally.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 15, 2017, 01:21:08 am
I think I have everything ready to start the engine.  It is timed accurately...I think.  There is oil, coolant, and now I need to prime the pump.

I was just planning on loosening the injector lines and turning it over until fuel flows out then retightening them and hoping it starts.  Do I need to loosen the lines at the injectors or the pump? 

Is the problem that all of the air needs to be removed from the lines or the pump?  Will the injectors not reach their pop off pressure with air in the line or does the pump just need to have no resistance while trying to move fuel through it?

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 15, 2017, 01:24:17 am
It'll start easier if you purge the air from the lines but it isn't 100% necessary.

It will start a heck of a lot quicker if you do though, especially if there's any air in the pump.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 15, 2017, 01:30:30 am
cool thanks,  thursday is my first day I will have a chance to try it.

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 15, 2017, 02:27:33 am
Don't be surprised if it sounds a little nasty while any remaining air finds its way out!

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2017, 05:03:56 pm
I made it run!!!

I started to bleed the injectors...cracked the first one and a little fuel came out so I cracked the second and it fired right up!!

It is awesome to have it actually run.  Now I have to start tuning it.

There was a little dark (not blue) smoke at idle and some white smoke when I revved it and then let off the throttle.  I assumed with the turbo it wouldn't smoke at all while it wasn't under load. 

Here is a video..let me know what you think and what you think the smoke means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMSxHurSk9w&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMSxHurSk9w&feature=youtu.be)

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2017, 06:06:45 pm
I did just realize that the intercooler isn't hooked up and that could change things.  I really just need to get it in the boat and test it there under load and connected correctly...

I guess I was wondering if it sounded normal or if I needed to check the timing again.  Many of the articles said to time it by ear after getting it set with the dial gauge.  I could do that with a gas engine but I don't know what to listen for with a diesel.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 18, 2017, 06:59:55 pm
Almost sounded like it was down a cylinder before you revved it. Was this shot immediately after you fired up? Sounded a lot better after it idled down again.

If a cylinder was still working the air out some white smoke would not be unusual at all.

Assuming you've verified oil pressure and all that good stuff, I'd run it with a bit more RPM for a couple of minutes before trying to assess anything about how it is running.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 18, 2017, 07:29:15 pm
It surprised me when it started so I pulled out my phone and started shooting.  It may have been running 20 seconds or so when I started the video.  I don't have any of the gauges set up yet I was just trying to bleed the lines when it started.

Where is a good port to put in an oil pressure gauge?

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on August 18, 2017, 11:05:46 pm
At the top of the head there is the oil sensor that shuts off the light normally on when first starting.  Put in a tee or run an oil pressure line to someplace you can mount one and put the senor on one side and the gauge on the other.  Or some oil filter flanges have a threaded spot or two on them but the one on the head is what you get at the end of the line not right after the oil pump is pumping oil into the filter. 

Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 19, 2017, 12:22:30 am
I couldn't find any sensors in the head...I may have removed them all.  I did find the brown one in the side of the oil pump.  If I can find a sending unit that will fit in there I will use it. 

I also found a valve cover gasket leak that I need to fix so before I make too much of a mess I am going to replace that too.  Do people every add a dab of silicone gasket sealer on the valve cover gaskets? 

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 19, 2017, 03:08:34 am
Ok, 20 seconds in that seems like a totally healthy engine. Run her for a few minutes at 2K+ then shoot the same video. I'm figuring you'll have no smoke and a pretty nice sounding engine.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on August 19, 2017, 11:07:14 pm
dabs of sealant I use are at the ends of the U shaped gasket going over the cam.  Just doesn't seem to pinch it right down next to the cover.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 25, 2017, 06:56:47 pm
How do I know what level to fill my coolant. Can I just have a small tank above everything and have the entire system full or is there a correct amount to have in the engine?

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 25, 2017, 09:49:45 pm
Just needs to be enough to completely fill the engine and leave no air bubbles, plus enough to fill whatever heat exchanger you are using. There's not going to be an "amount" in your scenario.

Ideally you should have an expansion tank, perhaps even a VW one, mounted above everything in your system and plumbed in like stock - there should be a small line coming from the top of the head to the expansion tank (this provides a path for air to exit the system) and a line from the bottom of the expansion tank to the return side of the cooling system.

Fill the system via the expansion tank until the expansion tank is half full - with a sealed system you want the little bit of air in there to deal with expansion and contraction but you want it away from the engine / heat exchanger. Air bubbles circulating through the system can reduce cooling capacity by as much as 30%.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on August 25, 2017, 11:40:14 pm
That is the way that I have it plumbed so I feel better.  I just didn't know if it was possible to over fill the system since it really doesn't have an escape valve like on the top of a gas engine radiator.

Is the system supposed to be under pressure?  How hot do these engines usually run?

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on August 26, 2017, 12:00:29 am
There will be some pressure from the increase in water temperature but I never noticed a lot if I opened the reserve tank once the engine was hot and running.  I think most of these have an 86 degree C thermostat in them.  Mine has a bit hotter but I don't see much above 90 on the gauges.  90 C = 194 F.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on August 26, 2017, 04:56:12 am
The cap on the VW expansion tank is a pressure relief cap, it pops around 22-25 PSI.

Temperature wise hot is good. Detonation isn't a concern so you're looking to remove as little heat from combustion that could be pushing a piston as possible. That means hotter coolant temps if you're coming from a gasser world. 90-110°C is pretty normal.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 12, 2017, 12:05:57 am
Engine is in the boat but I am redoing the engine mounts so when I get that done I will post some pictures.  Next I need to set up the fuel tanks.  I have some old aluminum boat tanks that I am going to use but they have been sitting in the yard for a few years and have some dust and debris in them.  I can only clean them a little since the openings are rather small and the tanks are long rhomboids that don't allow me to see the entire interior much less reach it. 

My question is how should I keep the dirt out of the fuel pump.  Would a couple of filters on each line be enough or do I need to do more...If I should do more what should I do?

Thanks again, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on September 12, 2017, 12:27:20 am
I would use clear inline filters and replace them often until you are confident that most of the junk is out of the tanks.  Maybe after 3 tank fulls have been pulled through the lines.  The cheap gas filters should do the trick. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on September 12, 2017, 02:40:27 am
A permanent solution would be to rig up some spin-on style filters that you can change easily. Something with a water block media ideally.

A Racor style marine filter with a big water separator would be pretty stellar.

Marine fuel is often dodgy by nature plus you're using more of it than someone would in a car. Spending a little extra money on your filtration setup would be a good move.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on September 12, 2017, 11:12:00 pm
I was assuming he would be setting something up for the normal filtration process but was looking for some additional filtering for catching the debris in the tanks that might not clean out.

I put one of those Racor filters on my Rabbit when I set up the waste veg oil on it.  I really liked the self priming pump on it.  I still have the base and an unused filter if you don't have something yet I might be convinced to part with it.  PM if you want to deal on it.  I removed the WVO system from the car a month or so ago as I am working on selling it and didn't see where in this day of low diesel prices it would be a big selling point.  I will sell the system on the side when diesel jumps back near 4.50 a gallon.  Or use it on my Caddy.


Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on May 28, 2018, 12:10:59 am
I have the motor in the boat and I am about ready to try it out in the river.  Unfortunately I have an exhaust leak that will probably end up being a big pain.  My concern is that there is a liquid coming out of the leak.  It looks like oil but I dont know if it is dirty fuel or oil.  I cant tell.  I thought I could smell the difference but it wasnt obvious.  I made a couple of videos hoping that you guys could tell me if I need to rebuild the head or if it is normal for excess liquid fuel to go out the exhaust when the engine is cold.

Here are the videos.  Ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them and will make more videos if it helps.  You can see the liquid moving sideways from the exhaust and running down the side of the head.  One video is directly after starting the motor and one is after about thirty seconds of idling. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MArMrguJOfE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdXDYOHqayg

After watching them I realize that they look much, much worse that I thought so I can redo them tomorrow.  You can still see the black liquid coming out the side.

My concern is that the head is cracked and allowing oil to enter the exhaust port although it could also be a leaky valve guide.

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on May 28, 2018, 12:29:33 am
I forgot to mention that the engine was cold and I dont have glow plugs connected.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on May 29, 2018, 12:59:47 am
I pulled the exhaust manifold and looked closer.  I realized that the egt's werent above 200 and the engine had been running for less than a minute.  I am guessing that is is unburned fuel and all I need to do is seal the manifold to the head better and ignore it. 

If anyone has any input I would like to hear it but as for now I am not going to worry.  If the head is cracked or the valve guides leak then it is what it is already.

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on May 29, 2018, 01:46:28 pm
Fuel won't make its way to the exhaust.  Carbon will be present in the exhaust and when the engine is cold, you would likely get water condensation.  A mix of the two might be what you are seeing.  You might also get oil from the turbo if the drain is not properly done or if you have excessive crankcase pressure.   
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on May 30, 2018, 01:37:20 am
I dont know about the crankcase pressure but the turbo should be draining properly.  I assume that if it was the turbo leaking that I would see some oil in the intake manifold.  Condensation could definately be it.

Thanks, I will update it if I figure anything out.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on May 30, 2018, 01:56:09 am
Can you post some pics of your oil return line?  Is there anywhere in the line that the ID is less than 3/8"?  Any p-trap valleys?  Does it enter the sump above oil level?  Is the drain within 15° of vertical (6:00)? 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on May 31, 2018, 12:24:54 pm
I look at it a get some pictures today.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on June 01, 2018, 03:11:57 am
Here is a picture of my oil drain from my turbo.  I ran the engine with some of the charge tubing off and held my hand over/infront of the turbo outlet and couldnt find any evidence of oil.  I also held a white rag over the outlet and didnt get any oil.  I sealed the exhaust manifold so I cant tell if there is still liquid coming out. 

The drain tubing uses all 1/2' fittings and hose.  It does sag and reenters the block where the stock oil return line did.

(https://imgur.com/a/djTRNXm)
https://imgur.com/a/djTRNXm

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on June 01, 2018, 12:58:30 pm
That valley could be an issue.  It will always be filled with oil and even normal crankcase pressure can prevent it from draining properly.  The seals on the turbo shaft are not positive seals but rather like little piston rings and so if there is any issue with proper drainage, they will happily allow oil to pass freely. 

Here's a good video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TYZChIdy14

Notice that he does not even raise the drain hose above the bottom of the center cartridge, and oil just pours out around the shaft.  Granted, the turbo in the video does not have a piston ring seal installed, but even with one installed, the oil would leak out around the shaft with a p-trap in the line. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on June 03, 2018, 01:17:50 am
Thanks that was a very informative video.  I definately have a dip in my line.  I assumed that I was good because the line is bigger than stock but it is also longer.  I will keep an eye on the exhaust and oil level.  I pulled the charge tube and there wasnt any signs of oil on the wall of the tube.  Since I sealed the exhaust leak I am not able to easily see if the liquid is still there.  It will have to make it out to the turbo.  Hopefully I will be taking the boat to the river this weekend or early next week and it will get a full stress test.

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: ORCoaster on June 03, 2018, 03:46:17 pm
Stress it don't break it.  You have too much into it not to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on June 03, 2018, 06:37:53 pm
I look forward to hearing about the results. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 01, 2018, 11:09:35 pm
I have the boat running but have only run it on the trailer on the ramp so far.  With the jet pump that I have hooked up to it I am only able to get 2500rpm with no boost showing on the gauge.  I may have the gauge hooked up wrong but when I have run the boat out of the water and no resistance on the engine I cant feel much if any air blowing out of the turbo.  I have a gt2052.  Should I be seeing boost by 2500rpm?  How can I make this turbo make more boost down around 2000-2200?

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 01, 2018, 11:13:47 pm
Also, will making more boost with the same amount of fuel result in less smoke or more smoke?  Right now it is smoking a little gray smoke at idle (more than I want).  There is soot on the back of the boat and the exhaust is exiting below the waterline so it is being filtered.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on July 02, 2018, 08:29:07 pm
The amount of boost you make revving the engine without load will be minuscule compared to the same rpm under load. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 03, 2018, 04:14:59 pm
The maximum Egt I got was 740f and that was at full throttle for about one minute. I am thinking about turning the fuel screw up to see if it helps. How high is safe for constant running and how high should my limit be?

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 03, 2018, 04:57:36 pm
Here is a short video of it running on the trailer

https://youtu.be/68V44fXAJdU

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on July 03, 2018, 07:07:45 pm
Was that full throttle under load (propeller pushing water) or just in neutral?  Boost and EGTs will both be significantly different with the engine under LOAD than at the same rpms full 'throttle' in neutral. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 03, 2018, 08:09:26 pm
It was under full load. Jet pumps absorb a certain amount of power at any given rpm. The absorbed power curve is exponential (I think?) so I have been changing the impeller in the jet pump to allow the engine to rev higher. At 2100 with the set up I had I am probably making 40-50hp. I was thinking if I can raise the fuel a little I may start making more boost and I assume that power will follow.  I'm starting to worry that I have too big of a turbo???

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 03, 2018, 09:36:25 pm
Sounds like you need more fuel! Steady state EGTs around 1200°F at full power would be quite safe. It does take heat to make boost; your EGTs are fairly low if that is loaded up.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 04, 2018, 12:25:12 am
I will head down to the ramp tomorrow and turn the screw!!!

Will my egt's continue to increase with rpm or is it directly a function of fuel per combustion cycle?

Will adding more air (boost) decrease the egt's per combustion cycle? (Assuming that the pump puts the same amount of fuel in per stroke irregardless of rpm)

If I keep the fuel down and find a way to increase boost (this is theoretical) is there an upper limit of boost psi or is it just cylinder pressure as a combination of both boost psi and fuel?

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 04, 2018, 01:31:04 am
It's a bit different in your application than the typical automotive rig. Generally in a car or truck increasing RPMs by down shifting reduces load, and EGTs go down.

Your setup is probably going to be at full power for long periods of time; that's partly why I say 1200°F for the EGT limits. If you were in a car you'd never be at peak power for more than a few minutes at most, so you can get away with more - most folks say 1400-1600F for a turbo engine. That's intermittent power rather than sustained though. Different ball game.

EGTs go up with fuel and down with air. Increasing boost lowers EGTs, until your intake air temperatures get too high anyhow. Increase fuel, you'll probably see an increase in boost (considering you have almost nothing now!) - you can turn up the fuel till your EGTs get high, then increase boost to get them back down, repeat until you get the power you're looking for or the boost levels go past what is safe for your engine and turbo.

I can't recall the details of your build now, but 15 PSI intercooled in a steady state with EGTs around 1200F will be safe for anything. You can crank things up from there assuming you have built the engine appropriately.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 04, 2018, 01:47:28 am
Also, some thoughts...

Are you targeting 2100-2500 RPM? Or is that just the most you can hit with your current setup?

I watched your video above - were the EGTs getting to 740F and stopping there, or did you just abort the test there?

I don't hear any turbo noise really, nor do I see any signs of the silicone couplers taking pressure. At the moment I'd assume you are not making boost.

I too am wondering about the size of your turbo. 2100 RPM is about where a K24 starts to come to life, a GT2052 is about the same size though a bit newer of a design. Can you hit 2800-3000 without changing anything else? Looking back through your posts you were talking about something like 3800 RPM which is quite a lot more air.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 04, 2018, 05:52:30 am



Also, some thoughts...

Are you targeting 2100-2500 RPM? Or is that just the most you can hit with your current setup?
2100-2500 is all I was able to hit.  I have the impellers available where I would like alot more power at that rpm and I could put in the bigger impellers and get more power absorbtion which will equal more thrust.  Bigger impellers are like somewhat like having a higher gear (where a higher gear equals more thrust) but you only get to use one gear.  The more thrust I get the more I can cary and the faster I can get on plane.  Also the more thrust I have at any given rpm means that I can cruise at a lower rpm using less fuel and less noise made.

I watched your video above - were the EGTs getting to 740F and stopping there, or did you just abort the test there?
On the pull in the video I probably just stopped but there were pulls where I kept it on until it leveled off and stayed at 740.  I wasnt able to get it more than about 740 ever.

I don't hear any turbo noise really, nor do I see any signs of the silicone couplers taking pressure. At the moment I'd assume you are not making boost.
I am going to use even smaller impellers to see if I can get more rpms under load and see where and if I build thrust.  Unfortunately, even with the impellers I have in there now I would not be able to get on plane because I am not making enough thrust...I need more power.

I too am wondering about the size of your turbo. 2100 RPM is about where a K24 starts to come to life, a GT2052 is about the same size though a bit newer of a design. Can you hit 2800-3000 without changing anything else? Looking back through your posts you were talking about something like 3800 RPM which is quite a lot more air.
I would love to make full boost at 2400.  I dont want to have to run at full throttle so I would ideally like to have the power to turn big impellers up to 3800.  That would allow me to easily cruise around 2400 and have power to spare when I needed to jump on plane quickly or had a lot of weight in the boat.

One thing I dont remember if I stressed was the need to not make smoke.  I will be using this on a river with other people mostly on rafts and paddle boards.  Rolling coal would be like pulling into the middle of a park and blowing smoke in the middle of someones bbq.

Another thing I have thought about is the possibility of an exhaust leak or a boost leak.  I dont think I am making any boost now but it is possilbe that I have a leak somewhere and cant hear it or just dont know what I am listening to.  I know the sound of a gas engine exhaust leak and I assume it would be the same but that is just my assumption.

Thanks for all the help, Matt
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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 04, 2018, 12:07:11 pm
Ok, gotcha.

Smoke is wasted fuel, nobody wants that. The engine MAY make a little smoke accelerating - ie if you slam the accelerator to the stop you'll probably have some smoke till the turbo catches up once things are tuned right, however it should be minimal and avoidable by easing in to full power. The LDA will let you control that too - I'm assuming you have it connected?

Definitely turn up the max fuel screw. Levelling off at 2100 / 740F means you are quite short on fuel.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 10, 2018, 01:41:30 pm
I haven't really thought about this but I am running stock nozzles with 195xxxmi on them.  Am I ever going to be able to flow enough fuel with these?  I have a bigger turbo, bigger exhaust, and bigger pump.  It seems like the restriction is the injectors. 

I am thinking about this stuff now because I am unable to test.  I don't have a vehicle to pull the boat to the water.  I went away for the weekend and two hours after leaving my car wouldn't shift out of park.  So my wife drove my truck to rescue me and the kids.  We used the truck to finish the trip...almost.  On the way home the truck died so we rented a car to get back to the first car (which had been repaired by then) and drove home.  This next weekend I will be driving 500 miles round trip to pick up the truck.  For now I don't have a tow vehicle to take the boat to the water. 

That was my $3000 weekend.   ::)
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 10, 2018, 02:37:04 pm
Stock nozzles won't make your HP goals, at least not without a ridiculously long injection window. The longer the injection event the more smoke you're going to have too, as well as higher EGTs.

Larger nozzles have poorer atomization which can lead to soot. They also have a harder time at idle since all of the required fuel gets delivered in such a short time - very large nozzles will give you a rougher noisier idle.

That's at the extreme end though - Race 520s or anything else in the 0.260 or larger sizes. I have 0.275s in my car - I get a large puff at startup and a light haze at full power. The bad spot is low RPM transitions though - give it more than 50% accelerator below 2k RPM and the smoke can be a bit much. Easing in to the accelerator slowly eliminates that for the most part.

I'd work with what you have now till you know everything else is working properly - when you are hitting 20+ PSI and your EGTs are maxing out you should look at changing nozzles. Likely something in the middle of the road would meet your needs, particularly keeping smoke in check.

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 10, 2018, 09:25:30 pm
I got to use a friends truck today and ran the boat up the river.  As I expected I couldn't get on plane but it did move up river.  I turned up the fuel screw and got the egt's up to around 840f.  More screw turning just resulted in black smoke and no increase in egt's.  Still no boost registering.  I bought a cast iron exhaust manifold with a mount for a t3 turbo that will be here friday.  I am going to remove all of the water jacketed stuff that goes before the turbo and do some testing to see if it helps.  I have to start eliminating potential problem areas until I get something that works and then start adding things from there.  Right now I have so many joints and potential leak points that finding a single problem seems unlikely.

Also, I realized that a small log exhaust is as small as the adapter that I made to mount the water jacketed exhaust so there shouldn't be any more potential hot spots and it eliminates alot of complexity and weight.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: vanbcguy on July 10, 2018, 10:35:33 pm
I do recall seeing another TDI boat running in to a similar problem with water jacketing pre turbo. Don't forget, a turbo runs on heat, so if you're cooling the exhaust down significantly before it gets there you're removing its ability to work. On the other hand insulating coatings and the like would certainly help keep the heat where it needs to be.

Oh, also, the Rover pump has a much smaller cam plate than a VW. If you still have stock nozzles it will need a longer injection window to send as much fuel as a stock VW pump would in the same time. See earlier statements about smoke from long injection durations...

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Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on July 11, 2018, 12:25:17 am
Don't forget, a turbo runs on heat, so if you're cooling the exhaust down significantly before it gets there you're removing its ability to work.

Indeed!  Don't cool anything pre-turbine other than the cylinder head and let that be as hot as is safe.  The turbine is a waste heat scavenger and removing any heat unnecessarily before the turbine will only hurt its efficiency. 
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on July 20, 2018, 11:58:18 pm
I found a lot of exhaust leaks.  The only way that I can explain that I didnt notice them is that the engine seemed really loud (not the exhaust).  The leaks didnt sound like the leaks I have heard from gas engines.  Anyway, that is what I am dealing with now.  I bought a cast iron manifold off of ebay and an adapter to directly hook my turbo to the manifold.  Hopefully this will get the turbo blowing some air.  I should be able to finish and test it (at least in the driveway) this weekend.  It is hot here (up to 108*) so I may just sit inside and think about working on the boat.

Matt.
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on October 05, 2018, 06:50:05 pm
I have been busy with a lot of other things but I have done a little on the boat. I got rid of the water cooled exhaust and the big manifolds and am using a small cast exhaust. I got rid of all of the exhaust leaks and when I I pulled off the hose I was able to feel air blowing out of the turbo for the first time!!  Unfortunately I am still not registering boost and I can't get my egt's much above 800. As I turn the screw I start to make more and more smoke but no more power and my egt's don't get any higher.

I am stuck at a point where I am not making enough power to get the rpm's that I need to create boost to make more power.

I don't understand why I can't get my egt's higher than 850.

Matt
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: libbydiesel on October 07, 2018, 12:24:20 pm
Something is amiss if you are getting smoke with low EGTs and the engine is not accelerating.  In other words, a steady state 800°F full load should not make smoke at all.  Even before the turbo spools up you shouldn't see any significant smoke until EGTs are over 1200°F if all is correct.  It sounds like something isn't letting air in correctly.  Intake restriction, e.g. plugged air filter, collapsing intake hose, rag in the patient, etc...?
Title: Re: MTDI in a boat
Post by: LabradorSteak on October 08, 2018, 11:47:43 am
The only thing I can think of is the teeny air filter I have on it. It should flow more than enough but I will remove it and see if anything changes.

Thanks, Matt.