VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: zukgod1 on July 21, 2008, 05:00:20 pm
-
Ok so here's the deal.
I did the gov mod, twice now.
I went as far as to place 2 of the OE springs in it where the larger spring is. Dang thing still cut fuel @ 3800rpm.?!
I took it apart again, placed a piece of HARD fuel Line in place of the springs, was a PITA to the the little clip back on. test drive, still cuts out @ 3800..
WTH!????
Before all this I had the hose in the gov and the below done, I had placed a 10 mm head on it and didn't get the new springs, I shimmed them and cranked in the fuel screw to compensate, idled funny but ran like a raped ape. Decided to re-shim the springs a bit more so I could back the fuel down (was toasting turbos as you remember) re assembled using same governor set up and cut out @ 3800.
What the heck am I doing here?
I've added a small pusher pump to make sure fuel was getting up there in case the vanes were getting worn, I tested this by taking the pusher pump out for a test run and it was no different. I've added a larger fuel filter set up off a Dodge Cummins for added capacity and same results.
I don't get it.
Any sugestions? Other than send it to Giles that is. If I had $1000.00 I would have already sent him a pump to build. I have 4 for hecks sake.
Maybe he needs some cores and could cut me a brake if I give him 4 cores, hmmm...
-
Are you shimming both springs ?
-
Yes, I shimmed the smaller spring just a little in all instances, no different.
I also tried it without the shim on the smaller spring, nothing..
-
I also shimmed my main spring and found no big difference
while disassembling my pump I noticed I have the lime green spring on the timing.
can it be that it advances to the max and then after ~3800rpm it needs more and there isn't any more advance possible?
just a thought
(I can't read rpm right now :( must get it to work )
EDIT: I was thinking about the SAE paper, the advance curve figure, with a softer spring (lime green being the softest) gets steeper, but hits the max advance earlier. perhaps we need a bit more max advance.
-
I have a fuel delivery problem, the fuel obviously backs down.
Starts to back off @ 3500 and by 3800 I'm done.
-
Could you have a blockage internally in the pump? Does it make any difference if you increase the internal pressure? It would be handy if you could watch it while you drive.
-
I don't think there is a blockage, wouldn't it show all the time instead of just higher rpm?
I don't dare adjust it without a gauge so I can see where I am now.
I mean it works fine other than it shuts fuel off.
I guess I had better make a out bolt with a port for pressure. I could wedge it under the wiper for testing I guess.
-
Bump up for more ideas.
-
the 2 long threaded screws on the top of the pump , the one near the engine can be used to control idle speed , the other to limit the travel at full power ....
if you haven't yet , back the second screw ( the full power one ) out till it no longer limits the throtel levers travel .
-
It doesnt matter where my foot is. I can be at half throttle and when it hits the 3500 range fuel starts to cut out so it's not that.
What I mean is I can be just bairly going in say 4th gear and push to 1/2 throttle and when the tach says 3800 your done, that's all she wrote, no more fuel, nada... :(
Same would be if in 5th going say 60 mph, I shift down to 4th to get past someone and it hits 3800 and I have to shift if I need to go any faster.
-
Sure theres a chance I guess..
You are referring to the shaft the gov slide on correct?
I could probably take out the banjo fitting for the inlet, pressure regulator and the tiny banjo where that little bypass tube is, remove the top of the pump and use compressed air to blow through the holes without having to remove the pump... Hmmm..
-
Ok took the top off the dang thing, removed the tiny banjo bolt that holds the tube from there to the timing cover. Blew air through there which caused it to come out the pilot hole in the shaft. I slid the black plastic housing that rides on the shaft back and forth and it would allow more air as I slide it towards the back of the pump. made sure there wasn't anything in the banjo bolt and basically just looked at everything, checked out the gov assy, looked at the area where the gov pushes on the fuel delivery assy, I didn't see anything different or wrong So I re assembled everything.
Had to reset the fuel of course and set the idle, took it for a drive, same damn thing.
Fuel just dies off @ 3800 rpm. I just don't get it.
What the heck is going on.
Steel sleeve is still in place and tight and the middle spring is shimmed almost a full 1/8".
Any suggestions?
I'll pull the pump off again if someone will tell what to do here. I'm out of ideas.
-
Do you have a picture of the spring assembly?
-
Do you have a picture of the spring assembly?
Yes, post a photo of your governormod and you other mod if you can.
When you say ''cutt of a 3800rpm'' you can clearly see no smoke going out the tailpipe, or its just a feeling of flat power when you get 3500....... 3800rpm?
-
i had a problem with my car cutting out between 3.5-4k rpm, it turned out to be a loose wire on the fuel pump. maybe it could just be some thing simple like this? i checked/replaced or cleaned most of the fuel system from the pump back to the tank with no difference before i found the loose wire :roll:
-
i had a problem with my car cutting out between 3.5-4k rpm, it turned out to be a loose wire on the fuel pump. maybe it could just be some thing simple like this? i checked/replaced or cleaned most of the fuel system from the pump back to the tank with no difference before i found the loose wire :roll:
+ 1
I often saw a loose wire or wrong adjusted wire.
-
that should be the electric advance on a ECO pump no?
-
No pictures of the spring assy guys, I didn't think of it when it was apart and don't feel like taking the pump apart to get a pic :(
This pump is an NA alt compensated pump that I converted to TD, It has the little tube from the advance cover going to the top of the pump between the pressure regulator and the inlet. There is a electrical connection and plunger assy on the cover that look just like the plunger used to shut it down and it has keyed power going to it.
What would happen if I remove the plunger and take the guts out so the fuel will travel through there all the time?
I mean if it's suppose to just open the circuit to allow the piston to move than why not just leave that port open all the time?
-
That just has to do with advance. Not sure which way it works, but removing the plunger may keep you from having advance. Though since it should be energized, I guess removing the plunger would be like having it energized all the time. Can't hurt anything...
-
it would be simpler to energize it permanently and go for a drive to test.
-
it would be simpler to energize it permanently and go for a drive to test.
It already is, it has 12v going to it as soon as the key is on.
I don't see it creating or solving my problem however.
-
Ok I removed the solenoid and compared it to a regular fuel cut off solenoid and it reacts backwards to the cut off one.
When energized it pushed the plunger out causing it to block the passage when 12v is removed the passage is open.
I had another fuel cut off solenoid so I removed the plunger and installed it and went for a drive. No difference. still goes to 3800 and your done.
So have to look at something else I guess.
-
Just bumpin this up for ideas.[/i]
-
Zuk, what mods have you done to your injection pump?
-
Zuk, what mods have you done to your injection pump?
AAZ cam disk.
10mm pump
Clearanced the timing cover and removed the larger washers replaced with thin ones.
Aggressive slope on the fuel pin.
That's it.
-
So I cant sleep now thinking about this.
The only thing I can think of that MAY have something to do with this is the shaft the governor rides on.
Maybe I have it screwed in to far or not far enough?
It frustrates me that I cant figure this out. I mean this damn thing just isn't that complicated that I shouldn't be able to just go fix it..
Damn! If I just wasn't so broke I would just ship one of my extra pumps to Canada and be done with it!!
-
It's not the governor shaft.
I do not see exactly what occur at 3800rpm, there are 3 possible thing to govern a pump, first: the governor assembly, 2: too much softer return spring on the head (came plate float) the 1.6D/TD one do not work with several head with grooved seat for the spring holder, 3: not enough timing past 3500 and up.
Maybee a part of this 3 thing combined.
-
2: too much softer return spring on the head (came plate float) the 1.6D/TD one do not work with several head with grooved seat for the spring holder,
Ah ha!!!
I'll bet thats what it is right there! Cam float. I'll have to pull the damn pump again but I'm betting I can replace those springs and that will take care of my problem.
I will have to report back with the results in a week or two.
-
So I think to test this I'm going to install a 9mm pump in place of the 10mm pump and see what happens.
The 10mm has recesses where the springs sit and the 9mm doesn't.
If that solves the problem I think I'll just build another pump put the 10mm on it and get the correct springs.
Then I can sell the 9mm pump..
-
So an update is in order.
I removed the pump this weekend (man I'm getting good at this) and I proceeded to tear it apart.
I removed the timing cover and piston, modded it so it can get an ass load more travel now, installed a 9mm pump in place of the 10mm pump and just checked everything out.
Re installed and took it for a drive. I was kinda bummed to be honest, didn't get moving worth a poo and couldn't get more than 15 psi. Realized I had the fuel pin on the damn near straight up and down part so I install one I had made with a very drastic slope and went for another drive and the smile on my face returned. 30 psi and smooth fuel delivery all the way through. I can now hit 5000 rpm if I choose.
So I suspect as we all determined earlier that I was experiencing cam float.
I also suspect if I had replaced the return springs with the taller springs I would have never had this problem with the 10mm pump but hey, it's all in the name of experimentation..
-
hurray :D
-
that wasn't a very good experiment, you should do only one mod at a time, if it was the timing, you can now swap the 10mm head and fuel on.
I have exactly the same mods as you had but I'm still experimenting.
-
that wasn't a very good experiment, you should do only one mod at a time, if it was the timing, you can now swap the 10mm head and fuel on.
I have exactly the same mods as you had but I'm still experimenting.
Actually it was a good experiment.
I knew it was a fuel delivery problem, it wasn't there before I messed with the pump head so timing was out of the question.
I took care of the pump and modded the timing piston while there so I wouldn't have to take the pump off yet again.
So when done it delivers fuel (again) past 3800 and also give me more dynamic timing which it seems to do well.
I don't see me going back to the 10 mm head but ya never know.
-
Hmmm, now I'm wondering if that's what is happening with me, though I changed other stuff as well. I put in a Cummins cam plate which has both a steeper ramp and taller lift. The one from Prothe I was running before was sort of between what I have now and an IDI cam plate. Plus Cummins don't run the RPM that VW's run, so maybe I'm floating as well, even with stronger springs. Something to think about at least....
-
just had an idea, I just bought a set of Ford injectors, the special thing is that one of them has the magnetic sensor like the n#3 injector on tdi's.
with one of that installed, and a pickup somewhere to sense TDC, I could measure timing (time between TDC and start of injector lift/ RPM= degrees)
and also injection volume (start of injector lift - end of injector lift)
back to the real world...
mine behaves exactly as before the upgrade, same smoke level= same power as before.
so.. if it is cam float, if we swap just the cam back to the 2mm lift one, that problem should be solved right?
when you put the 9mm head back, have you also swapped the camplate back to the 2mm one?
-
Nope I kept the AAZ Cam plate. I used a couple extra shims under the shaft the springs ride on for just about .014mm more tension.
Seems to have fixed my issue. I just went for a quick run to get some lunch and damn near ALL the smoke is gone @ 25 PSI and it's still pulling hard.
I'm going to grab my other fuel pin and make the ramp on it a bit more aggressive at the top so @ 20psi it will deliver a bit more fuel.
Sure is fun to drive again.
Now I've got to address the hard starting issue. Seems ever sens the last turbo destruction/ run away issue I've gained some blow by and it's hard to start. I suspect a ring issue.