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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rov716y on January 10, 2009, 04:01:00 pm

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rov716y on January 10, 2009, 04:01:00 pm

i am toying with the idea of putting twin turbo's on my aaz two k03's on exhaust manifol off 1 and 3 and other on 2 and 4 then exhaust running into one after that.  running two small intercoolers and inlet into the same cylinders the turbo is running off.  but one thing is making me think the fuel enrichment on the pump i would need to connect both boost lines to it so this would make both turbos boost the same or would it?  

do you think this would work?  does anyone know if anyone has done this and have any links to the build.  i would make all the manifolds etc myself.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Jasonsmack on January 10, 2009, 04:03:55 pm

Just an idea: I think you would end up with a more balanced/smooth running engine if you made the turbos flow into one intercooler or intake manifold.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: dillenger1 on January 10, 2009, 04:05:12 pm

Id ditch the 2 ko3 idea and run a big n small.I would run the larger one off the smaller one on the manifold.Just weld a tube from the  small compressors ouitput to the large compressors induction.You would need to use the small turbos waste gasses to run the large one tothen exit to downpipe.then run the large compressor into the intake.One boost line is only needed as the fuel will come on as boost rises.before anything due head studs and a mls gasket.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rov716y on January 10, 2009, 04:47:38 pm

i am looking for simplicity as i am not oveerly technicly minded!  a small and a bit turbo plummed in parralel sounds a bit more interesting.  small for low down and big for higher power.  

both plumed to all four cylinders and an intercooler.  now i am getting a little excited.  

do you think a 2.25" exhaust system will be big enough to run seriose power?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rallydiesel on January 10, 2009, 05:45:06 pm

Quote from: "rov716y"

do you think a 2.25" exhaust system will be big enough to run seriose power?

I seriously doubt it.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: dillenger1 on January 10, 2009, 06:58:12 pm

depends,whats serious power?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: jtanguay on January 10, 2009, 07:07:28 pm

don't forget the added supply of oil pressure required for two turbo's...

i've heard of big block guys using different sprockets in the oil pump to achieve this, but is it possible with our vw oil pumps?  is 36mm the biggest???  there must be aftermarket parts available...

Title: twin turbo
Post by: thedeezel1 on January 10, 2009, 08:06:59 pm

I thought someone else on here was running compound turbos (small feeding big) and he couldn't keep the head in place, even with ARP studs and a MLS headgasket.  I believe he was pushing something like 45-50 psi though.
With a big and little compund setup, even with small (k03 into a k14, k24, k26), what would the projected boost be? The k03 would come on quick, pushing the psi up on the big turbo, but would the big one (k14, k24, k26) still max out at its manufactured limit, or would the increase in incoming boost push that limit up?
I have toyed with this idea also, but didn't think it was possible.

I believe the guy's name was Andy, but I cannot remember.
He had mentioned something about casting an iron head to keep the lid on his setup?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: jtanguay on January 10, 2009, 08:16:54 pm

Quote from: "thedeezel1"

I thought someone else on here was running compound turbos (small feeding big) and he couldn't keep the head in place, even with ARP studs and a MLS headgasket.  I believe he was pushing something like 45-50 psi though.
With a big and little compund setup, even with small (k03 into a k14, k24, k26), what would the projected boost be? The k03 would come on quick, pushing the psi up on the big turbo, but would the big one (k14, k24, k26) still max out at its manufactured limit, or would the increase in incoming boost push that limit up?
I have toyed with this idea also, but didn't think it was possible.

I believe the guy's name was Andy, but I cannot remember.
He had mentioned something about casting an iron head to keep the lid on his setup?

yea his username on here is andy2.  hes running some crazy compound setup thats for sure!  with the fuel he was running the head was actually deforming (wimpy weak aluminum  :roll:) so he is working on a cast iron head.  AFAIK it's nearly done.  his boost is probably in the range of 50-60 psi.  

now for a normal compound setup, i would highly recommend a K03 with possibly a K26 hybrid turbo.  a setup like that would extremely responsive in low to high rpm range.  but for me i would rather just simplify things and go with the single vnt turbo.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rov716y on January 11, 2009, 05:31:08 am

Quote from: "rallydiesel"

Quote from: "rov716y"

do you think a 2.25" exhaust system will be big enough to run seriose power?

I seriously doubt it.

between 150 and 200 bhp  

2.25" i the biggest i can get past my rear axle.  2.5 touches the tank and axle.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rov716y on January 11, 2009, 05:34:54 am

reason i say 2 k03's is cheap fun power. i'm not rich infact i'd say i'm poor,  and k03's are easy and cheap to come by. i'd be making everything from scratch inc exhaust system. i dont want crazy power

Title: twin turbo
Post by: TurboJ on January 11, 2009, 11:49:31 am

Here's one compound twin turbo system on a 1.9 TD (AAZ):

(http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/20112008175.jpg)

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rallydiesel on January 11, 2009, 12:41:14 pm

I think it can work if you keep EMP down. So you would need serious exhaust porting, external wastegate to bypass the small turbo at high exhaust flow, etc...

Title: twin turbo
Post by: 53 willys on January 11, 2009, 12:52:54 pm

when I do my compound set-up it will be a K14 over K26....yummy :twisted:

andy2 was running a cummins turbo for the bottom right??
I bet that cummins turbo=lots of drive pressure/turbine inlet psi??=REALLY hard on a head gasket????

Title: twin turbo
Post by: DYNOMAX on January 11, 2009, 12:55:56 pm

Something like this.
Two step.

I would try to feed the bigger compressor with the smaller one.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll222/Savarturbo/Cumminsdubbelturbo.jpg)

Title: twin turbo
Post by: 53 willys on January 11, 2009, 12:59:13 pm

TRUE twin turbo on diesel's=yuck
compound turbos on a diesel=FTW!!! :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

Title: twin turbo
Post by: nogama3 on January 11, 2009, 03:16:03 pm

this thread has got my interest...sounds like a cool idea.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: DYNOMAX on January 11, 2009, 03:30:12 pm

A cool thing to do would be to use the Garrett T2 + T3 or KKK K14 + KKK K24 in a streetfriendly twinturbo setup.

1.6 or 1.9 TD

Title: twin turbo
Post by: dillenger1 on January 11, 2009, 08:32:35 pm

hahaha street friendly :D

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rallydiesel on January 11, 2009, 09:19:49 pm

Personally, I would go with k14 (preferable) or ko4 and something quite a bit bigger than stock for the high flow like a holset hy35 or some other smallish 6 cylinder turbo.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: dillenger1 on January 12, 2009, 06:25:51 am

this always comes up.Its funny,but we all know that the heads cant take it.There have been post of people that say they can do it successfully,but i dont know about reiability or streetable.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Turbinepowered on January 12, 2009, 06:59:23 am

Quote from: "DYNOMAX"

Something like this.
Two step.

I would try to feed the bigger compressor with the smaller one.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll222/Savarturbo/Cumminsdubbelturbo.jpg)

So for compounds you run the exhaust gas through the big one first, then the little one? So the small turbo is feeding it's compressor outlet into the compressor inlet of the larger turbo?

I always thought it went the other way around, with a small (high-pressure) turbo feeding off the exhaust gas first and being fed the "low pressure" discharge from a larger turbo. You get the larger turbo loafing along at say a nice 1.5:1 or 2.0:1 pressure ratio feeding air into the smaller one running along at similar 1.5:1 or 2.0:1 pressure ratio... voila, you have responsiveness on the bottom end and an overall 2.25:1-4:1 pressure ratio.

Have I missed something here? :?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: arb on January 12, 2009, 11:52:21 am

Quote from: "DYNOMAX"

Something like this.
Two step.

I would try to feed the bigger compressor with the smaller one.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll222/Savarturbo/Cumminsdubbelturbo.jpg)

Nice looking plumbing, but why no intercooler and no turbo oil lines ?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: zukgod1 on January 12, 2009, 12:23:09 pm

Quote from: "arb"

Quote from: "DYNOMAX"

Something like this.
Two step.

I would try to feed the bigger compressor with the smaller one.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll222/Savarturbo/Cumminsdubbelturbo.jpg)

Nice looking plumbing, but why no intercooler and no turbo oil lines ?

Oh come on man!!  :lol:

It's sitting on an engine stand so it's just mocked up.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: dillenger1 on January 12, 2009, 05:14:59 pm

The small turbo is on the exhaust manifold.Seems the small compressor would just work alone to feed the engine till its overcome by the big one ,thats been spooling up in the back ground.I love it! :D I always thought the small ones boost would help spool the bigger one,not just the exhaust.thats one bad cummins(even on a stand)

Title: twin turbo
Post by: nogama3 on January 13, 2009, 07:39:17 am

stick to your original plan fella, and then you can always make changes afterwards. i hope all goes to plan and keep us updated with pics, blogs...

Title: twin turbo
Post by: nogama3 on January 16, 2009, 04:09:14 pm

any updates on what you have decided???
also, what are compound turbos and whats the difference between the turbos mentioned?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: jtanguay on January 16, 2009, 04:55:28 pm

if the larger turbo feeds into the smaller turbo, would there be any worry of turbo overspeed, or surging due to overspeed?

just curious...

Title: twin turbo
Post by: andy2 on January 16, 2009, 05:28:25 pm

Thing with compounds is that as the low pressure turbo starts to force feed the high pressure turbo it causes the low pressure turbo to slow down as it now has to work harder.The key is keeping the high pressure's shaft speed consistant as the low pressure force feeds :wink:.

It is very possible to run a well tuned set of compounds without wastegates.Basically the low pressure turbo is used to regulate the high pressure turbo's shaft speed.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: nogama3 on January 17, 2009, 05:01:37 am

Andy2, how are things going with your project?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Baixo on January 17, 2009, 11:52:39 am

Quote from: "rov716y"

Quote from: "rallydiesel"

Quote from: "rov716y"

do you think a 2.25" exhaust system will be big enough to run seriose power?

I seriously doubt it.

between 150 and 200 bhp  

2.25" i the biggest i can get past my rear axle.  2.5 touches the tank and axle.

i  had a mk1, and i made my own 3" exhuast....it didnt run on nothing....and we all know that mk2's, 3's, 4's, passat's....can fit 3" no problem.....

Title: twin turbo
Post by: andy2 on January 17, 2009, 02:51:59 pm

Quote from: "nogama3"

Andy2, how are things going with your project?

Coming along well,We are building up an ALH TDI engine hopefully we'll have it up and running this spring.Hoping that this engine will hande the big compounds pushing 50+ psi.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Smokey Eddy on January 17, 2009, 04:33:45 pm

What are the key components to handling that much boost in regards to head gaskets and rings?
ARP or raceware studs?
What else?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Aki-76 on January 18, 2009, 07:20:03 am

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/pakosarjan%20sovittelua/?action=view&current=16012009237.jpg

i use my own desing bolt,extra long and super extra strong..final torgue is 130nm ( bolt hold up approximately 2200kg pull )

http://www.munkuvat.org/kuvat/73534.jpeg

Title: twin turbo
Post by: 53 willys on January 18, 2009, 10:52:01 am

Quote from: "Aki-76"

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/pakosarjan%20sovittelua/?action=view&current=16012009237.jpg

i use my own desing bolt,extra long and super extra strong..final torgue is 130nm ( bolt hold up approximately 2200kg pull )

http://www.munkuvat.org/kuvat/73534.jpeg

those look pretty beefy!!
I just torqued my ARP studs to 147nm!! I could not get my MLS head gasket to seal any other way..

Title: twin turbo
Post by: nogama3 on January 27, 2009, 09:40:37 am

rov716y,

any updates regarding your project?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: jtanguay on January 27, 2009, 09:51:23 am

Quote from: "Smokey Eddy"

What are the key components to handling that much boost in regards to head gaskets and rings?
ARP or raceware studs?
What else?

not raceware studs... they blow  :lol:

Title: twin turbo
Post by: foxracer1 on January 27, 2009, 10:22:39 am

Quote from: "Aki-76"

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/pakosarjan%20sovittelua/?action=view&current=16012009237.jpg

i use my own desing bolt,extra long and super extra strong..final torgue is 130nm ( bolt hold up approximately 2200kg pull )

http://www.munkuvat.org/kuvat/73534.jpeg

The intake and turbos look good. Anymore pics of the head int/ex combo?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Aki-76 on January 27, 2009, 11:38:28 am

intake

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/imusarjan%20valmistusta/

turbos and exhaust

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/pakosarjan%20sovittelua/


some motor part

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/moottorin%20osia/

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rallydiesel on January 27, 2009, 12:23:03 pm

Can you explain what you are doing with the pistons? The last one looks like an IDI piston. Is this an AAZ engine or a tdi you're making? Looks like a cool build!

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Aki-76 on January 27, 2009, 12:33:25 pm

i take engine block 2mm off , and piston same.that piston not ready yet,i need machine guidance to air --> to chamber  ( and valve groove ).
Piston shape is very different as orginal.You see that later   :twisted:

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Turbinepowered on January 27, 2009, 03:04:26 pm

Quote from: "Aki-76"

i take engine block 2mm off , and piston same.that piston not ready yet,i need machine guidance to air --> to chamber  ( and valve groove ).
Piston shape is very different as orginal.You see that later   :twisted:

Why cut 2mm off the block? I'm just curious.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: arb on January 27, 2009, 03:22:30 pm

How thin will the crowns be when you cut the notches for the valve clearance ?  From what I see, your compression ratio will be the same, same stroke, just smaller displacement.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Gearhead on January 28, 2009, 10:41:09 am

Aki,

You are a madman. Kudos to you for your work. Looks good.  Do you foresee any issues with that welded turbo bracket cracking as the headers heat up and expand?  I'm sure that bar will heat up as well, but not as much as the headers.  If it holds, the triangulation will make one stout header setup.

Also, looks like you're teaching that young man RIGHT!  I wish I had your shop. Kudos again.

Title: twin turbo
Post by: zukgod1 on January 28, 2009, 11:19:38 am

You gonna start that thing on Either?

Title: twin turbo
Post by: Aki-76 on January 29, 2009, 01:15:07 am

that exhaust what i build is stainles steel.Both turbos weight together 18-20kg..that bar is necessary and i think it`s just fine.

Problem with stainless is bigger heat expand but tube what i use is only 2mm wall ( very soft ).probably i need use more holder,engine block --> turbos....

Title: twin turbo
Post by: rov716y on January 30, 2009, 04:45:54 pm

Quote from: "nogama3"

rov716y,

any updates regarding your project?

i am currently searching for a new home so not starting anything till i have moved and settled.   i am searching for the viable parts loads off images. i dont want to go into this too blind.

twin turbo, bigger exhaust, pump mods, head mods.  i will be pushing a decent amount off power so need the apropriote guages too and poss intercooler and better engine cooling,  

so alot off work to do. i dont have any off road access at the mo another reason i want a new place

Title: twin turbo
Post by: nogama3 on January 31, 2009, 03:28:44 pm

fair play, i have recently been through it so know where you stand. keep us posted with any updates.  :D